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The controversial CVAC

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Post by hawkeye Thu 04 Feb 2016, 10:43 pm

This recent article about players at the Australian Open using Oxygen chambers is referring not to the CVAC that Djokovic claimed to have used but the less controversial hyperbaric oxygen pods. The article states that Djokovic and other players used these hyperbaric devices whilst at the AO this year.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/tennis-players-get-an-oxygen-fix-1454023796

The article is more than a little confusing however as it appears to imply that these hyperbaric pods are the same as the CVAC and that any controversy over their use is misplaced. But there has been little controversy over the use of hyperbaric pods. They are very different to the CVAC.

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Unlike the increasingly trendy $5,000 hyperbaric chambers many professional athletes use to saturate the blood with oxygen and stimulate healing, the CVAC is a considerably more-ambitious contraption. It uses a computer-controlled valve and a vacuum pump to simulate high altitude and compress the muscles at rhythmic intervals.

The company claims that spending up to 20 minutes in the pod three times a week can boost athletic performance by improving circulation, boosting oxygen-rich red-blood cells, removing lactic acid and possibly even stimulating mitochondrial biogenesis and stem-cell production.

CVAC Systems chief executive Allen Ruszkowski says the treatment seems to have many of the same effects on the body as intense exercise. He claims that the technology may be twice as effective at helping the body absorb oxygen as blood doping—a banned form of performance enhancement.

CVAC's Ruszkowski says a slew of other high-profile athletes use the Pod but often insist the company doesn't tell anyone, "because they feel it's a competitive advantage."

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424053111904787404576532854267519860#articleTabs%3Darticle

Of course the CVAC isn't banned but if the claims are correct it may be more advantageous to athletes than banned blood doping

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As the body is tested to its limits, the endurance athlete’s muscles hunger for oxygen, which is carried from the lungs to the muscles by red blood cells.

The more red blood cells available to deliver that oxygen, the higher an athlete’s aerobic capacity becomes, which leads to increased endurance and reduced physical effects of fatigue.

For decades, professional athletes have pursued ways to increase the amount of red blood cells in their bodies, both through methods considered acceptable, and through methods that are banned, including blood doping.

The CVAC chamber, instead of simply simulating a higher altitude, cycles through different altitudes. This has shown to maximize the benefits of altitude training, appearing to provide benefits that not only outweigh traditional altitude training, but also require significant less time spent in the chamber to obtain those benefits.

Indeed, a study conducted at the University of Hawaii showed convincing evidence of increased arterial oxygen saturation in athletes using CVAC for just a few hours per week, as opposed to the many hours traditional altitude training requires to see tangible benefits.

And because of this difference between CVAC and other altitude devices, CVAC walks a fine ethical line.

The World Anti-Doping Agency classifies altitude training in hypoxic chambers as violating the “spirit of sport,” although they are not banned.

In 2006, the WADA considered banning altitude training chambers, but ultimately decided not to add it to their list of banned methods, partly in light of their inability to find a reliable way to test for the usage of those chambers.

“It doesn’t mean we approve it,” head of the WADA, Dick Pound, said at the time.

Despite the WADA’s ongoing concerns about altitude training chambers, testing for usage of these chambers remains virtually impossible, particularly since there is no way to tell whether the increased VO2 max is as a result of training at a high altitude or as a result of sitting in an altitude training device.

And despite CVAC’s differences with traditional altitude training, there is no evidence that CVAC usage can be specifically detected in an athlete.

Even more sophisticated tests are likely incapable of detecting the usage of CVAC, including the biological passport, a test of biological markers over time used in other endurance sports.

There are a lot more athletes using CVAC than people know about. None of these athletes have ever been suspected of doping after they did the urine and blood tests. Before they did the urine and blood tests, their performance improved so much they were suspected, but after they did the blood tests, there was never any concern.”

http://www.dropshotdispatch.com/2011/10/13/djokovics-cvac-conundrum-djokovics-controversial-training-method-examined/

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I have a few questions. First of all the difference between hyperbaric pods and hypoxic pods (the CVAC) should be made clear. They are very different and it's the latter that is controversial. If this device is more effective than blood doping and has been judged to be against the spirit of the sport then it's difficult to understand why it's use is not banned. The only reason why it's not being banned appears to be because it's impossible to detect. If the CVAC can improve performance more than banned procedures or drugs then blood and urine tests are now obsolete.

NB. Please read the full articles I have provided links to. They are interesting.

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Post by socal1976 Fri 05 Feb 2016, 12:05 am

I have done a few sessions with the CVAC myself it really is impressive gives you a great nights sleep and does help your muscles recover. Why is a hyperbaric chamber any less controversial than CVAC? Personally, I don't see this as something that WADA or doping agencies are even jurisdictionally involved. Oxygen and air pressure fluctuations is not something considered a chemical drug enhancement. So what if it helps top athletes perform a little better, that is a good thing and not a bad thing. It uses the bodies own processes to improve recovery. I see the CVAC as a complete non-issue. Air and Air pressure is simply not dope, and sessions are pretty cheap so anyone can use it. This whole article is a lame attempt to equate "blood doping" with using a CVAC device, the two things are not even remotely similar regardless of the fact that CVAC may help as much or more.

Oh and the reason you can't test for it is because no substance that isn't naturally occurring enters your blood stream at all, hence why it isn't doping and very unlike doping. If it was doping you could test for it, hence your first clue that a CVAC is not doping or equivalent to it legally or morally. This is HE's feverish brain trying to come up with a way to smear Novak and somehow claim he has some unfair advantage and that is why he is winning. It transparent and stupid.

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Post by lydian Fri 05 Feb 2016, 12:36 am

I'm against the use of eggs/tents/chambers. Lance Armstrong used them to cover his use of EPO...

It came out by USADA investigation into Armstrong and written up in the Wall Street Journal that in 2001, Dr. Ferrari told Armstrong that he could disguise his EPO use from being detected in tests by micro-dosing and sleeping in an altitude tent, which would "boost the natural production of Erythropoetin and throw off the EPO test,".

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Post by socal1976 Fri 05 Feb 2016, 3:54 am

lydian wrote:I'm against the use of eggs/tents/chambers. Lance Armstrong used them to cover his use of EPO...

It came out by USADA investigation into Armstrong and written up in the Wall Street Journal that in 2001, Dr. Ferrari told Armstrong that he could disguise his EPO use from being detected in tests by micro-dosing and sleeping in an altitude tent, which would "boost the natural production of Erythropoetin and throw off the EPO test,".


Yes but Lance Armstrong was caught and I don't even think CVAC was invented when Lance Armstrong was doping so somehow tying LA to CVAC use is quite a stretch. Again, I think it is a bit of a stretch to call fluctuations in air pressure and oxygen levels doping. By the way I am not certain that a CVAC will mask EPO use as current testing maybe more advanced and certainly is than 2001. And furthermore, to me this one doctor's statement about another related technology (oxygen) doesn't for me establish a scientific link. Why use blood doping, I mean according to this article the CVAC itself is better than blood doping or the legal functional equivalent? To me anti-doping agencies have very self explanatory titles in their name, they are to prevent the use of dope not oxygen and air pressure. You can't even ban it because you have no way of knowing if someone used it or not because no foreign substance is ever entered into the bloodstream to test for trace amounts or indicators. I mean to test for something there has to be a non-naturally occurring substance introduced to the body to test for. I mean what if I was a tennis player and I chose to live and train in the Himlayas, which would produce similar affects to a CVAC, should I be banned from that because living at such extreme altitude may mask EPO use. Eventhough me living at altitude itself is legal and has real benefits it somehow should be made illegal, although beneficial and not involving drug use because it may or may not mask EPO use?

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Post by socal1976 Fri 05 Feb 2016, 4:02 am

Also, here is another reason your EPO masking argument is a bit far fetched. These devices are large, require serious installation, and transportation. I doubt any player regularly doping with EPO could use this device to mask it because it isn't something you just put in your suitcase and carry around with you to pull out when you need to scam a test. In fact, I have researched it at least up to a couple of years ago most cities that have CVAC devices most are not ATP tour locations. And these things are not travel and set up friendly.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Fri 05 Feb 2016, 6:24 am

So, CVAC or PRP treatments or not, players can dope during their off seasons, not during competition. Unless they're being checked 24 hours a day and 365 days a year, who says only so and so is more suspicious whilst others are not.


Incidentally, all the big four guys and also the top four guys now have their sudden surges and falls, so all should be suspected and not only one or two of them. I give them the benefit of doubts until irrefutable evident is found.

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Post by hawkeye Fri 05 Feb 2016, 8:45 am

I think some are missing the point. You don't need the CVAC to mask other forms of doping because other forms of doping that are banned are less effective than the CVAC. The CVAC does exactly what WADA is trying to ban ie it increases the athletes arterial oxygen saturation. But the CVAC is way more effective than messing about with blood bags. WADA is wasting its time checking blood an urine samples. Why would any athlete with enough cash to spend bother with such dodgy methods of increasing their endurance and performance when there is a more effective method? Not only more effective but impossible to detect even if WADA banned it.

Reading through the articles it appears that the only athletes who would not like using the CVAC are those attempting to increase their performance in ways judged at present by WADA to be illegal. It says it would make them feel sick. How ironic.

Also clever to create a little confusion by talking about "oxygen pods" or "eggs" when there are two very different sorts. It's only the CVAC that is twice as effective as blood doping. The hyperbaric chambers are far more common but have not been judged to be against the spirit of the sport. Players can smile and say they use an oxygen pod and ignorance will mean it's always assumed to be a hyperbaric chamber.

As I said WADA is no doubt wasting its time checking blood and urine samples because the game has moved on. But my guess is that anyone in the know has been aware of this for ages.

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Post by Jahu Fri 05 Feb 2016, 9:12 am

Should be banned immediately.

Sport is becoming so fake with these things and corrupted by betting.

Now any junkie can be a power sportsmen with these things.

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Post by kingraf Fri 05 Feb 2016, 9:49 am

CVAC is the future I had hyperbaric therapy for my back last year and if CVAC is an upgrade then I'm all for it.
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Post by Born Slippy Fri 05 Feb 2016, 9:54 am

I don't know much about this so not really in a position to comment but is HE arguing that Murray is the true number 1? How times change...

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Post by bogbrush Fri 05 Feb 2016, 10:24 am

No wonder there's no depth to the game when the sport has changed to make stamina more crucial than ever, and only the wealthiest players could afford this sort of treatment.

How is a young up-and-coming player earning just enough to cover travel costs supposed to get to the top table?

Ridiculous.
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Post by Josiah Maiestas Fri 05 Feb 2016, 11:03 am

Would be interesting to compare how many slams Novak won before the pod compared to how many won after he was using the pod. Looks like he bought his success rather than earned it.
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Post by Jahu Fri 05 Feb 2016, 11:22 am

...add the no-Gluten diet (silly cover), his dodgy ex-doctor, sudden 6h matches from a guy who used to quit matches midway so often, and you get the picture.

And the paid commercial about how he got so good after Davis Cup win is kids stories.
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Post by hawkeye Fri 05 Feb 2016, 2:24 pm

Josiah Maiestas wrote:Would be interesting to compare how many slams Novak won before the pod compared to how many won after he was using the pod. Looks like he bought his success rather than earned it.

From the 3rd of the linked articles at the top of the page

Djokovic was well on his way to completing a Career Slam of retirements, having retired in each of the Slams, with the exception of the US Open.

But after the 2010 US Open, when he reportedly began to use the CVAC technology, Djokovic went 25-5 on the rest of the year, earning three wins against top 10 players. In 2011, he is 64-3, including a 20-2 record against top 10 players.

In 2011, Novak Djokovic seemingly overnight gained the ability to win 96% of his matches, an enormous difference from the respectable 78% win percentage he accumulated in 2010.

So I make that 1 before and 10 after.

But Djokovic is the only player who admitted using it. The truth is it's not possible to know who is using the CVAC. Given how effective it is and with WADA's judgement about it not being in the spirit of the sport then it is unlikely that there will be many confessions. Djokovic has kept quiet about it since he first admitted it although I do think some of his comments given about his use of hyperbaric chambers in Melbourne are misleading to say the least. The controversy about his use of oxygen pods that he talks of was never caused by his use of hyperbaric chambers. Difficult to know if it was the author of the article or Djokovic himself that was responsible for this confusion. But I very much doubt that Djokovic is the only player to take advantage of such a remarkable treatment. If there are athletes prepared to take all kinds of risks in order to enhance their performance by taking or doing something illegal with all the risks of detection then how many more will be prepared to make use of something that is far more effective at boosting performance when it isn't illegal and can't be detected? Again from the 3rd link from the top of this page.

There are a lot more athletes using CVAC than people know about. None of these athletes have ever been suspected of doping after they did the urine and blood tests. Before they did the urine and blood tests, their performance improved so much they were suspected, but after they did the blood tests, there was never any concern.”

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Post by bogbrush Fri 05 Feb 2016, 2:31 pm

To be fair to Djokovic, this doesn't give him the ability to break people up in the first set of matches.
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Post by hawkeye Fri 05 Feb 2016, 3:08 pm

bogbrush wrote:To be fair to Djokovic, this doesn't give him the ability to break people up in the first set of matches.

So whats all the fuss about doping in tennis then? If it's just skill why bother making players keep WADA informed of their whereabouts so that they can have random blood and urine tests? In fact why threaten or ban athletes for using something that is far less effective than a legal performance enhancing device? The use of the CVAC makes a mockery of WADA.

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Post by Jahu Fri 05 Feb 2016, 3:21 pm

WADA is corrupted too, I mean if FIFA was which is 598 times Bigger then the Tennis Association, all sports are corrupted.

Sad days are coming ahead!!!
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Post by kingraf Fri 05 Feb 2016, 5:09 pm

if I was a professional tennis player I'd CVAC hard. Harder than hard even. Hardest
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Post by Jahu Fri 05 Feb 2016, 5:41 pm

Till you burn the Power Supply? Laugh
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Post by socal1976 Fri 05 Feb 2016, 6:50 pm

Nostrafreakingdamus predicts that as Djokovic wins more slams, honors, and threatens more all time records everything surrounding him will become more controversial. He is already a match fixer, a doper, an oxygen doper, bounces the ball too much, yells too loud, plays too robotic, etc. you get the picture. Here is my prediction if Djokovic breaks and or threatens to break the biggest records of Roger he will all of a sudden become the second gunmen on the grassy knoll and the kidnapper of the Lindbergh baby. The silliness of this CVAC non-controversy. Oh you feel less soreness and pain the next day and that night you get a real restful sleep, the horror of it all how unfair.


Last edited by socal1976 on Fri 05 Feb 2016, 6:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by socal1976 Fri 05 Feb 2016, 6:55 pm

bogbrush wrote:No wonder there's no depth to the game when the sport has changed to make stamina more crucial than ever, and only the wealthiest players could afford this sort of treatment.

How is a young up-and-coming player earning just enough to cover travel costs supposed to get to the top table?

Ridiculous.

I bought 5 CVAC treatment for 30 bucks for a half hour at a time totaling 150 for the 5 sessions. They are practically giving them away. If you read the pages of 606 you would think a CVAC is something that acts like steroids, EPO, HGH, and Viagara all at once. If that was true it is a really well kept secret because the place I went to was like deserted and the guy would have cut me an even better deal if I would of done more treatments. But the truth was that it had a modest but definitely improved soreness and lactic acid build up. Also you sleep like a baby and its a deep and natural sleep not a doped up sleep at all. But the treatments themselves are highly annoying. Your ears pop like 200 times in half an hour. So your contention I believe is incorrect any schmo can afford them and they do help but the impact is relatively modest.

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Post by Henman Bill Fri 05 Feb 2016, 9:37 pm

Yeah if you were going to call out a player for doping do it when he wins 9-7 in the fifth not when he is maiming people 6-2 6-1.

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Post by socal1976 Fri 05 Feb 2016, 9:51 pm

Henman Bill wrote:Yeah if you were going to call out a player for doping do it when he wins 9-7 in the fifth not when he is maiming people 6-2 6-1.
That is an excellent point we hear all this talk about how fitness dominates and how tennis is just cycling with rackets. I mean how many matches truly get decided in tennis because of fitness. Last three matches Novak against Nadal, Murray, and Federer all the first sets were 6-1 fitness had no say whatsoever on the matches in question.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Fri 05 Feb 2016, 11:56 pm

Huh? Didnt Novak being pushed to five sets so often but won them? How often he beat others 6-1, 6-2? More like he managed to outlast them and beat them 6-1 or 6-0 in the fifth set.

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Post by socal1976 Sat 06 Feb 2016, 12:10 am

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Huh? Didnt Novak being pushed to five sets so often but won them?  How often he beat others 6-1, 6-2? More like he managed to outlast them and beat them 6-1 or 6-0 in the fifth set.

Except for the last three matches where he beat Fed, Murray, and Nadal 6-1 in the first set, so how is it that you classify getting your arsekicked 6-1 in the first set "outlasting"?

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Post by temporary21 Sat 06 Feb 2016, 12:39 am

I would personally like to see this sort of tech banned, except in instances when its used to treat an injury, a dodgy loophole that may well be.

The top guys always get the advantage of being able to afford the best things like coaches and fitness trainers etc. Despite that the lower ranked guys could still GET those things in some way, a cheaper coach or a diet plan or just regular advice and so on, cheaper ways are still available.

With this stuff though, it sounds to me like its something only a top player could afford all the time, and there is NO legal alternative to help the peons keep up. Plus while the other things are more a psychological advantage, this SOUNDS like an innate physical advantage that other guys simply cant afford to get.

Of course just how effective they are looks up in the air, but in simple interests of fair play, not even worrying about blood doping masking, I would ban them.

Im perfectly alright with people going great lengths to recover from an injury, because those are unfortunate, and sometimes career enders, but if its the case theyre being used for a "tune up", im not for that.

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Post by laverfan Sat 06 Feb 2016, 3:00 am

Separating technology from sport is fraught with pitfalls. Where does one stop and where is the line between legal vs illegal?

PRP was illegal, then it became legal. From 'spirit of the sport' mindset, do larger racquet heads not violate the same 'spirit'? Do better 'shoes' not violate such spirit? Does better sweat-absorbing clothing not violate the 'spirit'?

CVAC or Hyperbaric Chambers to make it look like altitude training in your drawing room, the goal is the same, increase oxygen in blood. WADA can always say 98% saturation is legal, 99% is not.

WADA is drinking from the same fountain, which brings in millions of dollars in funding from a sport which offers millions. Why cut the hand that feeds you, for some moral high?

There will be more technology in the future, which will make this look like child's toys.

I am waiting for a power bar that you can munch between games to add oxygen to the blood stream. Then we can have 12+ hour marathons.

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Post by socal1976 Sat 06 Feb 2016, 3:47 am

temporary21 wrote:I would personally like to see this sort of tech banned, except in instances when its used to treat an injury, a dodgy loophole that may well be.

The top guys always get the advantage of being able to afford the best things like coaches and fitness trainers etc. Despite that the lower ranked guys could still GET those things in some way, a cheaper coach or a diet plan or just regular advice and so on, cheaper ways are still available.

With this stuff though, it sounds to me like its something only a top player could afford all the time, and there is NO legal alternative to help the peons keep up. Plus while the other things are more a psychological advantage, this SOUNDS like an innate physical advantage that other guys simply cant afford to get.

Of course just how effective they are looks up in the air, but in simple interests of fair play, not even worrying about blood doping masking, I would ban them.

Im perfectly alright with people going great lengths to recover from an injury, because those are unfortunate, and sometimes career enders, but if its the case theyre being used for a "tune up", im not for that.  

The sessions are dirt cheap a guy working at the movie theater could afford as many sessions as he likes. It is odd this is repeated over and over again but it simply is not expensive. So do you oppose orthoscopic Knee surgery, anti-inflammatories, cold medicine? Where do you draw the line on drugs or procedures that help you recover faster and why is recovering faster with no chemicals a bad thing?

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Post by socal1976 Sat 06 Feb 2016, 6:25 am

So what we learned:

1. CVAC is not illegal and not banned by any doping agency, despite HE's attempting to convolute this with doping no foreign non naturally occurring substance enters your bloodstream

2. This is not an unfair advantage in anyway it is not expensive and cost less than the dozens off other things like coaching and travel players pay for it

3. That anti factual myths attaching innuendo and controversy to anything Djokovic does has legs on 606v2 regardless of the facts. Like him going after ball girls on purpose or struggling for money at Paris 2007. You can just make stuff up and no matter how much the facts actually controvert what you say just refuse to accept it because it's Djokovic and it somehow has to be wrong.

4. There really is no disadvantage to athletes to using this cheap method of recovery that involves the ingestion of no foreign substance but because Novak does it is wrong and an unfair advantage. Of course  we need to ban athletes non chemically helping themselves feel less pain and perform better, after all that is somehow a wrong that must be addressed. Today oxygen and air pressure, tomorrow we ban massages because it speeds recovery and ice packs. I mean if oxygen can be made illegal why not the more complex compound of H2o in its frozen state

5. Apparently according some Novak has won Ten slams on the egg chamber has someone informed Berdych and Tsonga that a couple of thirty dollar sessions of air pressure fluctuations could add ten slams to their resume.

6. Whether you think it is fair or not it is legal, non chemical, not bad for you, and impossible to test for. The reason it is impossible to drug test for is because it isn't a drug. You get the last part, no test for it, so you can say how unfair it is but no one will ever or can test for it. So this whole thread is just a pointless hatchet job

This is of course a lame HE thread trying to somehow insinuate something unfair about Novak kicking Nadal and Fed's tail in. Honestly I am a little fed up Novak winning has so knocked the senses out of some that apparently he is a match fixer, a doper, and some sociopath who when he misses a shot purposefully targets ball kids. Personally, you guys have at it. I need a break from the constant smears and general negativity on this site. I'll see you guys around at Indian wells when we have Tennis to talk about as opposed to discussions on how we regulate the air pressure tennis players are exposed to and the evils it entails.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sat 06 Feb 2016, 6:44 am

Socal, Novak didnt just play against those three guys right?? Watch his match vs Stan at AO2015; he practically has to have a five sets match in every slam, the latest is of course at the AO this year against Simon.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sat 06 Feb 2016, 6:44 am

Socal, Novak didnt just play against those three guys right?? Watch his match vs Stan at AO2015; he practically has to have a five sets match in every slam, the latest is of course at the AO this year against Simon.

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Post by Danny_1982 Sat 06 Feb 2016, 10:32 am

Don't understand the fuss. There is one key point to this: CVAC is not illegal and it's use does not break any tennis rules.

If it gives him some big advantage and other top players have decided not to replicate it, then that's their fault. Because it's use is not against any rules.

I have no idea how much impact it has had on his success, but it is irrelevant. I don't understand how Djokovic can be accused of anything when he has acted within the rules.

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Post by temporary21 Sat 06 Feb 2016, 11:28 am

The difference socal is those are treatments for an injury, these are accepted to be unfortunate incidents you wanna get through.

But its generally accepted that recovering your energy levels is part of the skill of the game. Can you conserve your energy levels in the early rounds? Can you manage them if youre tired? being able to lug these things around risks removing that aspect of play which is a big reason to what makes winning big tournies such a great achievement, and not everyone is able to use them like that.

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Post by Jahu Sat 06 Feb 2016, 11:30 am

So any one approving and defending this machine is a Djoko fan.

We will see a movie about Djoko in a few years Laugh

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Post by temporary21 Sat 06 Feb 2016, 11:33 am

nono hes not done anything wrong. Its a really useful machine that's rare to find and expensive to personally own, and its legal. Hes well within his rights to use it to "recover from long sets"

Im saying he shouldn't have that opportunity to use it that way, its WADA's responsibility to to that.

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Post by lydian Sat 06 Feb 2016, 1:35 pm

I seem to remember CVAC themselves saying the system is twice as effective as blood doping. Apparently Michael Phelps used it daily for a year before winning 4 golds and 2 silvers at 2012 OG.

These systems are expensive, not commonplace and only the top stars can afford them...that's my beef, the guys at the top stay the top better through these systems. You can bet no tennis player on the challenger circuit is using CVACs.
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Post by laverfan Sat 06 Feb 2016, 4:00 pm

lydian wrote:I seem to remember CVAC themselves saying the system is twice as effective as blood doping. Apparently Michael Phelps used it daily for a year before winning 4 golds and 2 silvers at 2012 OG.

... and it is legal, till deemed illegal by WADA, or vice-a-versa...


lydian wrote:These systems are expensive, not commonplace and only the top stars can afford them...that's my beef, the guys at the top stay the top better through these systems. You can bet no tennis player on the challenger circuit is using CVACs.

Some of these at the top, did come through the ranks. Does better technology make a better player, of course it does? Perhaps each slam should install these and and let players have it for 30-minute sessions/day (as SoCal has indicated), and at least level the slams, if not the challenger circuit. MS1000s next, perhaps.

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Post by socal1976 Sat 06 Feb 2016, 9:33 pm

Ok here I said I would leave this thread but again let's see the tenth attempt to show you it is not expensive:

– 20 minutes for $40.00 if paid for on a "pay as you go" basis for sessions taken during our regular office hours.


www.drkaslow.com › html › cvac

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Post by socal1976 Sat 06 Feb 2016, 9:44 pm

By the way the keyword is 40 dollars pay as you go. Online another guy was on a blog talking about how like me paid 1 dollar a minute.
this site says if you buy more sessions they will discount the pay as you go price. You require at most 2-3 sessions a week. So this device is cheaper than getting a massage or a single chiropractic adjustment. 

Now let's see the very next post on here will be somebody saying their main problem with it is that it is expensive and here IS THE KEY phrase UNFAIR advantage. Because really this is about disgruntled fans crying like small children that it isn't fair that Novak is better than their hero. More pathetic HE deceit and Passive aggressive nastiness.

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Post by temporary21 Sat 06 Feb 2016, 9:59 pm

But again the point is there aren't too many, and to be able to use it really effectively you need to buy one yourself so you can have it as soon as you need it.

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Post by lydian Sat 06 Feb 2016, 11:11 pm

Socal you keep quoting session prices etc but look at the link:

http://cvacsystems.com/site/cvac-solutions-2/new-locations-coming-soon

There are only 15 locations for these devices for pay & go in the whole of USA! This is an esoteric tool only available on a regular basis for those who own one...or you still happen to live in one of the lucky 15 locations. Please don't expand this to hyperbaric chambers in general as they are not CVAC which creates its massive benefits by taking the user up and down in atmospheric pressure 100s of times in a 30 min session...this is the mode of action that forces the kidneys to release large amounts of EPO.

It's an esoteric device only the very top stars can afford to use...and so is an unfair advantage in my book.
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Post by hawkeye Sun 07 Feb 2016, 12:36 am

lydian wrote:I seem to remember CVAC themselves saying the system is twice as effective as blood doping. Apparently Michael Phelps used it daily for a year before winning 4 golds and 2 silvers at 2012 OG.


Yes. From the link in my article at the top of the page

CVAC Systems chief executive Allen Ruszkowski says the treatment seems to have many of the same effects on the body as intense exercise. He claims that the technology may be twice as effective at helping the body absorb oxygen as blood doping—a banned form of performance enhancement.

Didn't know about Phelps...

I would be interested to hear the rationale from anyone who believes it is OK to use the CVAC but is against banned performance enhancing techniques or drugs because I can't think of any reason to judge them differently?

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Post by socal1976 Sun 07 Feb 2016, 1:47 am

hawkeye wrote:
lydian wrote:I seem to remember CVAC themselves saying the system is twice as effective as blood doping. Apparently Michael Phelps used it daily for a year before winning 4 golds and 2 silvers at 2012 OG.


Yes. From the link in my article at the top of the page

CVAC Systems chief executive Allen Ruszkowski says the treatment seems to have many of the same effects on the body as intense exercise. He claims that the technology may be twice as effective at helping the body absorb oxygen as blood doping—a banned form of performance enhancement.

Didn't know about Phelps...

I would be interested to hear the rationale from anyone who believes it is OK to use the CVAC but is against banned performance enhancing techniques or drugs because I can't think of any reason to judge them differently?
Why it should be treated differently because it's not a drug. Doesn't have the same negative consequences. And maybe also because you can't proscribe it because you can't test for it. So tell me HE since Novak has admitted to using CVAC and in your opinion it is the same exact thing as blood doping and should be treated the same do you recommend striping Novak of all his slams and records? I mean shouldn't CVAC be treated like blood doping? Maybe we could make you happy and split his ten CVAC related slams equally to Roger and Rafa.

Question 2 since it isn't a drug how will you police it? Hire 24 hour surveillance teams to follow players around, maybe bug their electronic communication? If you can't test for it how do you ban it?

Seriously, the vapid nonsensical arguments you guys have made on this thread has made me reconsider the value of posting here it is the equivalent of talking politics with American Republicans when facts don't fit your arguments you just ignore said fact and pretend like it doesn't exist.

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Post by laverfan Sun 07 Feb 2016, 1:48 am

socal1976 wrote:Now let's see the very next post on here will be somebody saying their main problem with it is that it is expensive and here IS THE KEY phrase UNFAIR advantage. Because really this is about disgruntled fans crying like small children that it isn't fair that Novak is better than their hero. More pathetic HE deceit and Passive aggressive nastiness.

SoCal... please no name-calling.

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Post by Jahu Sun 07 Feb 2016, 1:51 am

Here's another one

http://www.outsideonline.com/1930416/secret-science-novak-djokovics-training-pod

The moment CVAC was mentioned here, we have socal who has just been on it and costs peanuts, to minimize it's importance Laugh

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Post by socal1976 Sun 07 Feb 2016, 1:57 am

Laverfan the garbage posted on this thread deserves a lot more nastiness than that. This thread is a bullsheet smear job, no factual basis, all the arguments trying to claim unfair advantage and blood doping are laughable have been easily destroyed yet the allegations live on like zombie talking points. Any facts provided to the contrary are ignored completely. This is a dishonest smear job put out there by a person known for this tripe. And the behavior in question is exactly like I described it. A childish, stupid response to your hero getting manhandled over and over again by player that has fairly surpassed him.

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Post by socal1976 Sun 07 Feb 2016, 1:58 am

Will the moderators please tell racist Jahu to stop addressing me or I will get nasty

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Post by socal1976 Sun 07 Feb 2016, 2:09 am

lydian wrote:Socal you keep quoting session prices etc but look at the link:

http://cvacsystems.com/site/cvac-solutions-2/new-locations-coming-soon

There are only 15 locations for these devices for pay & go in the whole of USA! This is an esoteric tool only available on a regular basis for those who own one...or you still happen to live in one of the lucky 15 locations. Please don't expand this to hyperbaric chambers in general as they are not CVAC which creates its massive benefits by taking the user up and down in atmospheric pressure 100s of times in a 30 min session...this is the mode of action that forces the kidneys to release large amounts of EPO.

It's an esoteric device only the very top stars can afford to use...and so is an unfair advantage in my book.
Ok so your prior claim it was too expensive was wrong. Now the issue is accessibility and not price? I just want to get this straight. Because i don't obviously put you in to the HE or Jahu category I just think you are wrong on this not cynical. Initially, you said your concern was it masked EPO. Now we hear it is twice as effective. Then the concern was price and now it is accessibility?

Also if something is not chemically invasive, relieves athletes pain, is cheap, improves performance, helps sleep, and is just not accessible enough for you why don't you help solve the accessibility problem as opposed to banning. All technology if it is as revolutionary as you guys claim will become more widespread. I mean do you really feel a non chemical method of pain management that works, is cheap, and you can't test for it anyway should be banned. And then since you can't test for it how do you want to ban it anyway? And if it works to heal people faster why would you want to. Hell if this is true this is the cure for chemical EPO and you guys want to strangle it in its infancy.

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Post by laverfan Sun 07 Feb 2016, 3:55 am

lydian wrote:Please don't expand this to hyperbaric chambers in general as they are not CVAC which creates its massive benefits by taking the user up and down in atmospheric pressure 100s of times in a 30 min session...this is the mode of action that forces the kidneys to release large amounts of EPO.

The same argument could be applied to PRP, it also stimulates healing. The HyperBaric chambers and CVACs achieve the same results - higher oxygen levels - just the rates are different.

lydian wrote:It's an esoteric device only the very top stars can afford to use...and so is an unfair advantage in my book.

So is a Federer/Djokovic/Nadal/Murray racquet. Is that also an unfair advantage?

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Post by laverfan Sun 07 Feb 2016, 3:56 am

socal1976 wrote:Will the moderators please tell racist Jahu to stop addressing me or I will get nasty

Please report specific posts.

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