The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll)

First topic message reminder :

It's not Labour or Corbyn's fault either

In this age of entitlement, "the workers" who traditionally voted Labour take the welfare state for granted and are now bizarrely right wing, even though they rely on the welfare policies of the left. (I am aware this is generalisation - but hey, that seems to be the crux of the thread)

The left and the working classes are completely at odds with each other now - which is a massive problem for Labour. It has to become 2 different parties because it won't be able to unite those 2 forces when there is a rejection of experts. But when that happens then there will be no party remotely able to challenge the Conservatives.

mikey_dragon wrote:You misinterpreted something I said, just admit you were wrong. I'll ignore your BS, I mean bringing immigration and communism into it, WTF is that all about? Take your own advice by having a rest, it may refrain from you having to spread more BS around here 'blue jeans'.

I misinterpreted nothing. Shouldn't it be 'mickey'? As in 'mouse'?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Ah well, time for the scare mongering to stop:-

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36660133

Still, haters will always hate.

True. Did you read it by the way?

'Analysts also warned that the rally of the past couple of days might be short-lived.

"Stocks and the pound are continuing to firm but the post-Brexit reality will bite sooner or later," said Joe Rundle, head of trading at ETX Capital.


"What we're seeing in the FTSE is hope in Britain being able to ride it out by remaining part of the single market. This looks like wishful thinking."

Interesting. Does this Joe Rundle chappie have access to a crystal ball, or is he best mates with Mystic Meg?

As far as I can tell, nobody will know the "post Brexit reality" for quite some time. We haven't even invoked Article 50 yet to trigger negotiations.

The current reality is we are still part of the EU and will remain so until this happens.

As I've said all along, its a bit early to be predicting an economic apocalypse until we know a bit more about when the exit process is likely to start and what kind of a deal we can expect to get.

Currently we know precisely diddly squat.

Coxy001 wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:Navy looks up business rates in the UK put your marine le pen sitting on farage''s face level eurosceptic glasses on and try to find a way to blame the EU for it. That's why lord dothwails voted leave and why he was the recipient of the most vitriolic abuse in this thread. He thinks the centrally set business rates enforced and collected by local councils are there because of the EU''s red tape. Less a turkey voting for Christmas, more livestock paying alligator sfor blwjobs

Agreed, was one of the most embarassing things on this thread to be stated as fact when it was such mythical bullcrap not even JR Rowling could've come up with such make believe nonsense.

Aye what a Jk.

navyblueshorts wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:You misinterpreted something I said, just admit you were wrong. I'll ignore your BS, I mean bringing immigration and communism into it, WTF is that all about? Take your own advice by having a rest, it may refrain from you having to spread more BS around here 'blue jeans'.

I misinterpreted nothing. Shouldn't it be 'mickey'? As in 'mouse'?

Umm you interpreted me telling a british citizen to row back to his private island as xenophobia with regards to immigration - so unbelievably wrong! Then you started talking about other BS stuff for reasons still unknown to me. Go for a coffee blue jeans, it's obvious you're still a bit angry over the referendum .

navyblueshorts wrote:I don't know what you believe, but I would take it from your comments, that your main reasons are business-related ones.

Yes, that is correct. Also, I have a bit of a pain in my arris about how all this EU funding is being spent. Like a lot of others in my town. Now I know that is not the fault of the EU, but they make this big claim that they are giving deprived areas masses of ££££'s. But who is policing what the idiots are spending it on ?

In my town, and many others, instead of spending money on helping businesses and infrastructures, what am I seeing ? Frigging statues, and works of art being put up everywhere. Why the frig does Ebbw Vale need a nice shiny statue of a dragon in it's town center, you can guarantee that was not cheap. They should have put that money into courses to train the teenagers with some sort of trade, or put it into the NHS.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Robin Cook's resignation speech was the behaviour of a man that knew how to be a dissenting voice in a paddock of sheep. Farage came across as a self-satisfied, dim-witted oik. I can see how that appeals to many people though.

Oh God, Julius. An grand, flowery, old fashioned, Oxford dictionary sponsored oration that lasts quarter of an hour?

You have Much too high an opinion of the patience levels of the "dim-wits" that sat listening to Farage. They had places to be, and luncheons to attend, and shopping to do and fashion outlets to browse. You want the EU Parliament to be a British one? Delusion.

BTW - I think even Robin began to nod off half way through his speech.

LordDowlais wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:I don't know what you believe, but I would take it from your comments, that your main reasons are business-related ones.

Yes, that is correct. Also, I have a bit of a pain in my arris about how all this EU funding is being spent. Like a lot of others in my town. Now I know that is not the fault of the EU, but they make this big claim that they are giving deprived areas masses of ££££'s. But who is policing what the idiots are spending it on ?

In my town, and many others, instead of spending money on helping businesses and infrastructures, what am I seeing ? Frigging statues, and works of art being put up everywhere. Why the frig does Ebbw Vale need a nice shiny statue of a dragon in it's town center, you can guarantee that was not cheap. They should have put that money into courses to train the teenagers with some sort of trade, or put it into the NHS.

What are you going to do when the money they spend dries up and the tories decide to scrap this money? The EU has your interests at heart in this matter all you would need to do is get whoever distribute's the fund to take a more sensible course. Now you're going to be at the mercy of Gove and Boris instead of receiving money you'll probably be paying more so we can get enough trade negotiatiors and expand the civil service enough to make a decent fist of it.

By the way, has anyone located Michael Gove yet??

He's on a boat to Poland... The UK is an unwelcoming place for Leave voters

For the sake of balance....

Not all economists are gloomy about the prospects for the UK economy, however. 
Toscafund chief economist Savvas Savouri, who backed the UK to leave the EU, says the economy will strengthen rather than struggle in the wake of the Brexit vote.
He says it's going to be "deja vu" from 1992 when the UK crashed out of the Exchange Rate Mechanism under John Major: "In the wake of this the pound fell, GDP recovered strongly and the FTSE ultimately surged." 
Watch as the UK feeds off Chinese growth, EU workers continue to come to the UK and the weak pound makes our universities and cars more competitive, Dr Savouri argues.
He predicts growth of about 2% next year and inflation of between 1% and 3%.

I do hope this chap is correct!

funnyExiledScot wrote:For the sake of balance....

Not all economists are gloomy about the prospects for the UK economy, however. 
Toscafund chief economist Savvas Savouri, who backed the UK to leave the EU, says the economy will strengthen rather than struggle in the wake of the Brexit vote.
He says it's going to be "deja vu" from 1992 when the UK crashed out of the Exchange Rate Mechanism under John Major: "In the wake of this the pound fell, GDP recovered strongly and the FTSE ultimately surged." 
Watch as the UK feeds off Chinese growth, EU workers continue to come to the UK and the weak pound makes our universities and cars more competitive, Dr Savouri argues.
He predicts growth of about 2% next year and inflation of between 1% and 3%.

I do hope this chap is correct!

So do I and then this lot can shut the f*ck up for a bit

SecretFly wrote:He's on a boat to Poland...  The UK is an unwelcoming place for Leave voters

He's on a plane, it has Virgin written on the side. 

Seriously, surprised with the lack of wit from the inners. Nobody replied to "row back to your island" with "why doesn't he take a private jet from his airline instead?" Better out than in I always say.

ShahenshahG wrote:The EU has your interests at heart

Do they ? Or is it just a case of them giving our OWN money back to idiots who cannot spend it properly. At least if we had our own people deciding where our OWN money went it could be policed and spent more wisely.

ShahenshahG wrote:What are you going to do when the money they spend dries up and the tories decide to scrap this money?

You do realise that the money is OURS to start with ?

Would you give me a tenner, so that I could give you a fiver back, and split the other fiver between people who could not afford to give anything in the first place ?

LordDowlais wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:I don't know what you believe, but I would take it from your comments, that your main reasons are business-related ones.

Yes, that is correct. Also, I have a bit of a pain in my arris about how all this EU funding is being spent. Like a lot of others in my town. Now I know that is not the fault of the EU, but they make this big claim that they are giving deprived areas masses of ££££'s. But who is policing what the idiots are spending it on ?

In my town, and many others, instead of spending money on helping businesses and infrastructures, what am I seeing ? Frigging statues, and works of art being put up everywhere. Why the frig does Ebbw Vale need a nice shiny statue of a dragon in it's town center, you can guarantee that was not cheap. They should have put that money into courses to train the teenagers with some sort of trade, or put it into the NHS.

I would imagine it is the local council/local businesses that came up with the idea (of the project including the statue), submitted it to the EU, who then gave the funding. I suppose the EU could have refused to fund it, as a poorly judged use of its money, but maybe they figured the local council knew what was best for the local community. It seems a bit odd to blame the EU for what was almost certainly a local council/local business project.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:"Stocks and the pound are continuing to firm but the post-Brexit reality will bite sooner or later," said Joe Rundle, head of trading at ETX Capital.

Joe Rundle has a crystal ball now does he ? Evidence in front of people that things are starting to plateau and STILL we have the naysayers.

No 7&1/2 wrote:True. Did you read it by the way?

 

Yes I did. Things are getting better, yet people are still pouring cold water over it. As I said, the haters will always hate.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Analysts also warned that the rally of the past couple of days might be short-lived.

One word in that sentence, MIGHT. FFS come on, Wales MIGHT win the Euros.

Just went against what you said it was.

dyrewolfe wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Ah well, time for the scare mongering to stop:-

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36660133

Still, haters will always hate.

True. Did you read it by the way?

'Analysts also warned that the rally of the past couple of days might be short-lived.

"Stocks and the pound are continuing to firm but the post-Brexit reality will bite sooner or later," said Joe Rundle, head of trading at ETX Capital.


"What we're seeing in the FTSE is hope in Britain being able to ride it out by remaining part of the single market. This looks like wishful thinking."

Interesting. Does this Joe Rundle chappie have access to a crystal ball, or is he best mates with Mystic Meg?

As far as I can tell, nobody will know the "post Brexit reality" for quite some time. We haven't even invoked Article 50 yet to trigger negotiations.

The current reality is we are still part of the EU and will remain so until this happens.

As I've said all along, its a bit early to be predicting an economic apocalypse until we know a bit more about when the exit process is likely to start and what kind of a deal we can expect to get.

Currently we know precisely diddly squat.

And 52% voted for that. Deary me.

funnyExiledScot wrote:For the sake of balance....

Not all economists are gloomy about the prospects for the UK economy, however. 
Toscafund chief economist Savvas Savouri, who backed the UK to leave the EU, says the economy will strengthen rather than struggle in the wake of the Brexit vote.
He says it's going to be "deja vu" from 1992 when the UK crashed out of the Exchange Rate Mechanism under John Major: "In the wake of this the pound fell, GDP recovered strongly and the FTSE ultimately surged." 
Watch as the UK feeds off Chinese growth, EU workers continue to come to the UK and the weak pound makes our universities and cars more competitive, Dr Savouri argues.
He predicts growth of about 2% next year and inflation of between 1% and 3%.

I do hope this chap is correct!

Except that we can devalue the pound at any point to increase exports.

Sorry but this positive spin is nonsense. Any benefits will be negligible versus the trade and employment we lose for the majority.

Also to be perfectly honest I am not happy for our government to be responsible for negotiating trade deals with some of these countries mentioned - South Korea, China, the US - even if some of these could be pulled off they would be a disaster for workers rights, wages, employment and many UK industries.

The EU is much stronger at defending workers/consumer rights, quality and standards as we saw in the ( hopefully failed) TTIP negotiations.

mikey_dragon wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:You misinterpreted something I said, just admit you were wrong. I'll ignore your BS, I mean bringing immigration and communism into it, WTF is that all about? Take your own advice by having a rest, it may refrain from you having to spread more BS around here 'blue jeans'.

I misinterpreted nothing. Shouldn't it be 'mickey'? As in 'mouse'?

Umm you interpreted me telling a british citizen to row back to his private island as xenophobia with regards to immigration - so unbelievably wrong! Then you started talking about other BS stuff for reasons still unknown to me. Go for a coffee blue jeans, it's obvious you're still a bit angry over the referendum .

TBH, I don't think a coffee, with all that caffeine, is going to help much...

No 7&1/2 wrote:

dyrewolfe wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Ah well, time for the scare mongering to stop:-

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36660133

Still, haters will always hate.

True. Did you read it by the way?

'Analysts also warned that the rally of the past couple of days might be short-lived.

"Stocks and the pound are continuing to firm but the post-Brexit reality will bite sooner or later," said Joe Rundle, head of trading at ETX Capital.


"What we're seeing in the FTSE is hope in Britain being able to ride it out by remaining part of the single market. This looks like wishful thinking."

Interesting. Does this Joe Rundle chappie have access to a crystal ball, or is he best mates with Mystic Meg?

As far as I can tell, nobody will know the "post Brexit reality" for quite some time. We haven't even invoked Article 50 yet to trigger negotiations.

The current reality is we are still part of the EU and will remain so until this happens.

As I've said all along, its a bit early to be predicting an economic apocalypse until we know a bit more about when the exit process is likely to start and what kind of a deal we can expect to get.

Currently we know precisely diddly squat.

And 52% voted for that. Deary me.

Well actually what the voted for was a 50 million a day increase to the NHS budget and an end to emigration but what they will get, if they are lucky, is diddly squat.

navyblueshorts wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I'm starting to dislike that whinebag Sturgeon. With the way she goes on about it you'd think the Leave voters are some angry mob running through Britain abusing eastern Europeans and ripping off turbans... And Farage is gaining popularity I see, especially with the truth serum he gave to the embarrassing European parliament yesterday .

I see Branson is also having a bit of a whinge about his lost value... So when he said "we'd be worse off if we left the EU" what he actually meant was that he'd be worse off. Row back to your island pal.

Nice. And you wonder why so many paint Brexiteers as they do....

Your desire to throw the racism card at any given opportunity is quite silly; Richard Branson lives on his own Island and is a keen rower, not sure why you're making more out of that comment than that.

LordDowlais wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:I don't know what you believe, but I would take it from your comments, that your main reasons are business-related ones.

Yes, that is correct. Also, I have a bit of a pain in my arris about how all this EU funding is being spent. Like a lot of others in my town. Now I know that is not the fault of the EU, but they make this big claim that they are giving deprived areas masses of ££££'s. But who is policing what the idiots are spending it on ?

In my town, and many others, instead of spending money on helping businesses and infrastructures, what am I seeing ? Frigging statues, and works of art being put up everywhere. Why the frig does Ebbw Vale need a nice shiny statue of a dragon in it's town center, you can guarantee that was not cheap. They should have put that money into courses to train the teenagers with some sort of trade, or put it into the NHS.

OK. I'm slightly at a loss though. The EU give the money and you admit the (mis?)spending is not the fault of the EU, but vote out anyway? So now Ebbw Vale has no money to spend on anything. Does that make any sense??

If anyone thought they were voting for that rodders, they're pretty gullible.

rodders wrote:

Well actually what the voted for was a 50 million a day increase to the NHS budget and an end to emigration but what they will get, if they are lucky, is diddly squat.

Diddly Squat too?

The Leavers will be happy with that unexpected extra bonus.

JuliusHMarx wrote: It seems a bit odd to blame the EU for what was almost certainly a local council/local business project.

I am not blaming the EU. I have said that in my post. What I am blaming the EU for is giving money to idiots. It's almost as though they are just throwing money at a problem without any thought of how it is being spent. Why should the EU be in control of OUR money. The EU does not care what it is spent on as it is not their money.

If we were in control of our own money, you could bet your life it would be spent more wisely.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I'm starting to dislike that whinebag Sturgeon. With the way she goes on about it you'd think the Leave voters are some angry mob running through Britain abusing eastern Europeans and ripping off turbans... And Farage is gaining popularity I see, especially with the truth serum he gave to the embarrassing European parliament yesterday .

I see Branson is also having a bit of a whinge about his lost value... So when he said "we'd be worse off if we left the EU" what he actually meant was that he'd be worse off. Row back to your island pal.

Nice. And you wonder why so many paint Brexiteers as they do....

Your desire to throw the racism card at any given opportunity is quite silly; Richard Branson lives on his own Island and is a keen rower, not sure why you're making more out of that comment than that.

:sigh: It's because of the terminology used. "Row back to your own island", "Go back to your own country", what's the difference? Maybe for Mickey, he knows what the difference is (let's give him the benefit of the doubt) but for too many, they're one and the same.

navyblueshorts wrote:OK. I'm slightly at a loss though. The EU give the money and you admit the (mis?)spending is not the fault of the EU, but vote out anyway? So now Ebbw Vale has no money to spend on anything. Does that make any sense??

What on earth are you talking about ?

Look, the EU are in charge of OUR money, yes ? OK, so the EU give OUR money back, a lot less of it as well might I add, and the idiots who get this money spend it on nonsense. Why is the EU not questioning this ? This is what I am blaming the EU for. The EU do not care what we spend our share on, it's not their money to worry about.

If we were in control of our OWN money, you could bet your life it would be spent wiser.

Also, why would all of a sudden all our money dry up ? Do you know something nobody else doesn't know ? Just because we have voted out, it does not mean the end of life as we know it.

LordDowlais wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote: It seems a bit odd to blame the EU for what was almost certainly a local council/local business project.

I am not blaming the EU. I have said that in my post. What I am blaming the EU for is giving money to idiots. It's almost as though they are just throwing money at a problem without any thought of how it is being spent. Why should the EU be in control of OUR money. The EU does not care what it is spent on as it is not their money.

If we were in control of our own money, you could bet your life it would be spent more wisely.

But by voting Leave you've given total control of the money to the idiots, who were the ones with the responsibility to spend it wisely in the first place, and failed. The EU have to rely on what the local councils tell them is required. Unless they were to spend even more money to check that the local council aren't idiots. Can you imagine the outcry if the EU were to veto local projects because they, far removed from the locality, thought they knew best?

navyblueshorts wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I'm starting to dislike that whinebag Sturgeon. With the way she goes on about it you'd think the Leave voters are some angry mob running through Britain abusing eastern Europeans and ripping off turbans... And Farage is gaining popularity I see, especially with the truth serum he gave to the embarrassing European parliament yesterday .

I see Branson is also having a bit of a whinge about his lost value... So when he said "we'd be worse off if we left the EU" what he actually meant was that he'd be worse off. Row back to your island pal.

Nice. And you wonder why so many paint Brexiteers as they do....

Your desire to throw the racism card at any given opportunity is quite silly; Richard Branson lives on his own Island and is a keen rower, not sure why you're making more out of that comment than that.

:sigh: It's because of the terminology used. "Row back to your own island", "Go back to your own country", what's the difference? Maybe for Mickey, he knows what the difference is (let's give him the benefit of the doubt) but for too many, they're one and the same.

Pretty bloody clear what he meant to be honest isn't it.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I'm starting to dislike that whinebag Sturgeon. With the way she goes on about it you'd think the Leave voters are some angry mob running through Britain abusing eastern Europeans and ripping off turbans... And Farage is gaining popularity I see, especially with the truth serum he gave to the embarrassing European parliament yesterday .

I see Branson is also having a bit of a whinge about his lost value... So when he said "we'd be worse off if we left the EU" what he actually meant was that he'd be worse off. Row back to your island pal.

Nice. And you wonder why so many paint Brexiteers as they do....

Your desire to throw the racism card at any given opportunity is quite silly; Richard Branson lives on his own Island and is a keen rower, not sure why you're making more out of that comment than that.

Reminds me of the time I made a comment about James Toney and KFC and some **** called me racist for associating black people with friend chicken when an ounce of boxing knowledge would shown James' love of KFC is exceeded only by his love of Burger King.

"I don't fully understand but rather than admit it, I'll call someone a racist or a diddler and effectively "win" the argument I was having."

Waiting for someone to be called a racist diddler next... at which point I think the forum needs to be closed down.

LordDowlais wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:OK. I'm slightly at a loss though. The EU give the money and you admit the (mis?)spending is not the fault of the EU, but vote out anyway? So now Ebbw Vale has no money to spend on anything. Does that make any sense??

What on earth are you talking about ?

Look, the EU are in charge of OUR money, yes ? OK, so the EU give OUR money back, a lot less of it as well might I add, and the idiots who get this money spend it on nonsense. Why is the EU not questioning this ? This is what I am blaming the EU for. The EU do not care what we spend our share on, it's not their money to worry about.

If we were in control of our OWN money, you could bet your life it would be spent wiser.

Also, why would all of a sudden all our money dry up ? Do you know something nobody else doesn't know ? Just because we have voted out, it does not mean the end of life as we know it.

What on earth makes you think that if we were in control of our own money, it would be spent wiser? In the example you give, the idiots decided how to spend it - they had the control. The EU don't dictate it, and that's probably a good thing - unless you wanted more interference from the EU? Would you have voted Remain if the EU took control and decided where the money should be spent, not the local council?
And Wales in general, by being out of the EU, will have less money to spend. And since it appears to be run by idiots, according to you, things aren't going to get any better.

DAVE667 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I'm starting to dislike that whinebag Sturgeon. With the way she goes on about it you'd think the Leave voters are some angry mob running through Britain abusing eastern Europeans and ripping off turbans... And Farage is gaining popularity I see, especially with the truth serum he gave to the embarrassing European parliament yesterday .

I see Branson is also having a bit of a whinge about his lost value... So when he said "we'd be worse off if we left the EU" what he actually meant was that he'd be worse off. Row back to your island pal.

Nice. And you wonder why so many paint Brexiteers as they do....

Your desire to throw the racism card at any given opportunity is quite silly; Richard Branson lives on his own Island and is a keen rower, not sure why you're making more out of that comment than that.

Reminds me of the time I made a comment about James Toney and KFC and some **** called me racist for associating black people with friend chicken when an ounce of boxing knowledge would shown James' love of KFC is exceeded only by his love of Burger King.

"I don't fully understand but rather than admit it, I'll call someone a racist or a diddler and effectively "win" the argument I was having."

Waiting for someone to be called a racist diddler next... at which point I think the forum needs to be closed down.

Sounds like a ONETWO thing to do.

We'll have to go back in time and get Joe Louis and Nigel Benn to change their nicknames.

JuliusHMarx wrote:But by voting Leave you've given total control of the money to the idiots, who were the ones with the responsibility to spend it wisely in the first place, and failed. The EU have to rely on what the local councils tell them is required. Unless they were to spend even more money to check that the local council aren't idiots. Can you imagine the outcry if the EU were to veto local projects because they, far removed from the locality, thought they knew best?

Do you honestly believe, that somebody sitting in Brussels, and will probably never come to South Wales, will ever be aware of how the money is being spent ? As long as they keep sending the money, they think they are doing a good job. At least if we had people HERE in control of it, they would be aware of what is going on.

TBH, I do not think our MEP's care what the money is being spent on, as it does not affect them, they are just sending the money over regardless.

Also, the idiots that you mentioned were campaigning to remain, I wonder why ?

JuliusHMarx wrote:What on earth makes you think that if we were in control of our own money, it would be spent wiser? In the example you give, the idiots decided how to spend it - they had the control. The EU don't dictate it, and that's probably a good thing - unless you wanted more interference from the EU? Would you have voted Remain if the EU took control and decided where the money should be spent, not the local council?
And Wales in general, by being out of the EU, will have less money to spend. And since it appears to be run by idiots, according to you, things aren't going to get any better.

It seems I am debating with you and navyblueshorts about the same thing, without being rude, can you both please read the responses I have put to the both of you for an answer, just so that you do not think I am ignoring you.

But I will ask you this, would you give all your money to somebody else to decide who and how it is spent ?

Would you be confident that this third party person would be as careful with your money as you would ?

Would you be happy if you gave ALL your money to this third party, to only have three quarters of it back ?

And lastly, why do you think all this money would suddenly disappear now that we have voted to leave ?

Going by past experience when I lived around Swansea there were considerable problems with how the council was run. So it would not surprise me if the way EU money was being spent was not ideal. (Also would not surprise me if, for instance, the artist/manufacturer of the sculptures LD refers to earlier was somehow related to someone on the council)

So we keep on going back to the same argument. Right to protest, wrong target, end result could well mean things getting a lot worse.

LordDowlais wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:But by voting Leave you've given total control of the money to the idiots, who were the ones with the responsibility to spend it wisely in the first place, and failed. The EU have to rely on what the local councils tell them is required. Unless they were to spend even more money to check that the local council aren't idiots. Can you imagine the outcry if the EU were to veto local projects because they, far removed from the locality, thought they knew best?

Do you honestly believe, that somebody sitting in Brussels, and will probably never come to South Wales, will ever be aware of how the money is being spent ? As long as they keep sending the money, they think they are doing a good job. At least if we had people HERE in control of it, they would be aware of what is going on.

TBH, I do not think our MEP's care what the money is being spent on, as it does not affect them, they are just sending the money over regardless.

Also, the idiots that you mentioned were campaigning to remain, I wonder why ?

I don't follow. The EU allocates significant money to Wales. Wales misspends it. You blame the EU for sending it, on the basis that they don't send a delegation to South Wales to micro-manage how the Welsh spend the money that they have been given. You think the solution is to just give control over the money to the Welsh in the first place.

Well thankfully the Leavers have solved your problem. No more money at all.

lostinwales wrote:So we keep on going back to the same argument. Right to protest, wrong target, end result could well mean things getting a lot worse.

But if we were in control of our OWN money, you bet your life it would be policed better. The thing is, the EU does not worry how we spend the money they so generously give us back, because it is not theirs to begin with.

LordDowlais wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:But by voting Leave you've given total control of the money to the idiots, who were the ones with the responsibility to spend it wisely in the first place, and failed. The EU have to rely on what the local councils tell them is required. Unless they were to spend even more money to check that the local council aren't idiots. Can you imagine the outcry if the EU were to veto local projects because they, far removed from the locality, thought they knew best?

Do you honestly believe, that somebody sitting in Brussels, and will probably never come to South Wales, will ever be aware of how the money is being spent ? As long as they keep sending the money, they think they are doing a good job. At least if we had people HERE in control of it, they would be aware of what is going on.

TBH, I do not think our MEP's care what the money is being spent on, as it does not affect them, they are just sending the money over regardless.

Also, the idiots that you mentioned were campaigning to remain, I wonder why ?

http://news.cbi.org.uk/reports/our-global-future/factsheets/

It's hard to stomach your ignorance and not descend into abusing you again so just look at what we get for our money. The benefits far outweigh the costs. Presumably this is the same council that told you EU was at fault for business rates?

LordDowlais wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:What on earth makes you think that if we were in control of our own money, it would be spent wiser? In the example you give, the idiots decided how to spend it - they had the control. The EU don't dictate it, and that's probably a good thing - unless you wanted more interference from the EU? Would you have voted Remain if the EU took control and decided where the money should be spent, not the local council?
And Wales in general, by being out of the EU, will have less money to spend. And since it appears to be run by idiots, according to you, things aren't going to get any better.

It seems I am debating with you and navyblueshorts about the same thing, without being rude, can you both please read the responses I have put to the both of you for an answer, just so that you do not think I am ignoring you.

But I will ask you this, would you give all your money to somebody else to decide who and how it is spent ?

Would you be confident that this third party person would be as careful with your money as you would ?

Would you be happy if you gave ALL your money to this third party, to only have three quarters of it back ?

And lastly, why do you think all this money would suddenly disappear now that we have voted to leave ?

If/when we leave then the EU will stop paying the money. (Money that does, amongst other things help to pay for teams of experts like I used to be going out to help local industry get more competitive.)

Now, I can foresee the situation that the new government that presses the nuclear button might commit to maintain funding to match the convergence funding, but I'd guess that at the first sign of trouble it would be reduced or reallocated elsewhere.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I don't follow. The EU allocates significant money to Wales. Wales misspends it. You blame the EU for sending it, on the basis that they don't send a delegation to South Wales to micro-manage how the Welsh spend the money that they have been given. You think the solution is to just give control over the money to the Welsh in the first place.

Stop presuming what I think. Please get down off your high horse. All I am saying is, if we were in control of our own money, we would see it spent better. I do not want us to give X amount to somebody else, only for them to give us a fraction back and not care how it is spent.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Well thankfully the Leavers have solved your problem. No more money at all.

Whay do you think this ? Do you know something that others do not ?

LordDowlais wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:OK. I'm slightly at a loss though. The EU give the money and you admit the (mis?)spending is not the fault of the EU, but vote out anyway? So now Ebbw Vale has no money to spend on anything. Does that make any sense??

What on earth are you talking about ?

Look, the EU are in charge of OUR money, yes ? OK, so the EU give OUR money back, a lot less of it as well might I add, and the idiots who get this money spend it on nonsense. Why is the EU not questioning this ? This is what I am blaming the EU for. The EU do not care what we spend our share on, it's not their money to worry about.

If we were in control of our OWN money, you could bet your life it would be spent wiser.

Also, why would all of a sudden all our money dry up ? Do you know something nobody else doesn't know ? Just because we have voted out, it does not mean the end of life as we know it.

If you don't understand what I'm talking about, perhaps you need to be a bit more explicit about what your perceived problem is?? So you think if it were simply our money, everything would be fine and there'd be no statues? I think you have a false image of what would happen in that case.
What makes you think the EU don't care what it's spent on? Maybe the application was to build a statue? How is it the EU's fault if that was the result? If that wasn't the aim for the money, how is it the EU's fault that some twit in Wales has misspent the funds? You think that would change if we weren't in the EU? I think you're misguided, if so.
I'll leave aside your "It's ours and we're keeping it" cry on what we pay into the EU and what its worth is.

LordD,
So if I understand it - the local government are idiots, the EU simply provide the money with no oversight, so you'd like to leave the idiots in place, get rid of the EU and have central government (who all voted Remain, therefore may potentially also be idiots) have the oversight? Would that be Westminster or the Welsh Assembly? Because the Welsh Government also contributed to the Ebbw Vale Town Centre Regeneration Programme (perhaps confirming their idiot status).

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I'm starting to dislike that whinebag Sturgeon. With the way she goes on about it you'd think the Leave voters are some angry mob running through Britain abusing eastern Europeans and ripping off turbans... And Farage is gaining popularity I see, especially with the truth serum he gave to the embarrassing European parliament yesterday .

I see Branson is also having a bit of a whinge about his lost value... So when he said "we'd be worse off if we left the EU" what he actually meant was that he'd be worse off. Row back to your island pal.

Nice. And you wonder why so many paint Brexiteers as they do....

Your desire to throw the racism card at any given opportunity is quite silly; Richard Branson lives on his own Island and is a keen rower, not sure why you're making more out of that comment than that.

:sigh: It's because of the terminology used. "Row back to your own island", "Go back to your own country", what's the difference? Maybe for Mickey, he knows what the difference is (let's give him the benefit of the doubt) but for too many, they're one and the same.

Pretty bloody clear what he meant to be honest isn't it.

You don't get it do you? Nevermind.

LordDowlais wrote:

lostinwales wrote:So we keep on going back to the same argument. Right to protest, wrong target, end result could well mean things getting a lot worse.

But if we were in control of our OWN money, you bet your life it would be policed better. The thing is, the EU does not worry how we spend the money they so generously give us back, because it is not theirs to begin with.

They get UK money as a whole. They don't get money from Wales directly. So the EU who wants to develop wales will pay for areas where investment is needed but the government won't do it because that's money they have to take out of the treasury. If they didn't have to pay it to the EU it would never get to Wales or to Cornwall or any of the other areas that desperately need it. Good luck, to you and yours mate. Going to need it.

Statues

What started very much as a pointed joke on another thread becomes a serious discussion topic on this one.

navyblueshorts wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I'm starting to dislike that whinebag Sturgeon. With the way she goes on about it you'd think the Leave voters are some angry mob running through Britain abusing eastern Europeans and ripping off turbans... And Farage is gaining popularity I see, especially with the truth serum he gave to the embarrassing European parliament yesterday .

I see Branson is also having a bit of a whinge about his lost value... So when he said "we'd be worse off if we left the EU" what he actually meant was that he'd be worse off. Row back to your island pal.

Nice. And you wonder why so many paint Brexiteers as they do....

Your desire to throw the racism card at any given opportunity is quite silly; Richard Branson lives on his own Island and is a keen rower, not sure why you're making more out of that comment than that.

:sigh: It's because of the terminology used. "Row back to your own island", "Go back to your own country", what's the difference? Maybe for Mickey, he knows what the difference is (let's give him the benefit of the doubt) but for too many, they're one and the same.

Pretty bloody clear what he meant to be honest isn't it.

You don't get it do you? Nevermind.

I'm well aware you like to play the racism card when you have no other argument, what is quite is you yourself did not understand the comment.

LordDowlais wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:But by voting Leave you've given total control of the money to the idiots, who were the ones with the responsibility to spend it wisely in the first place, and failed. The EU have to rely on what the local councils tell them is required. Unless they were to spend even more money to check that the local council aren't idiots. Can you imagine the outcry if the EU were to veto local projects because they, far removed from the locality, thought they knew best?

Do you honestly believe, that somebody sitting in Brussels, and will probably never come to South Wales, will ever be aware of how the money is being spent ? As long as they keep sending the money, they think they are doing a good job. At least if we had people HERE in control of it, they would be aware of what is going on.

TBH, I do not think our MEP's care what the money is being spent on, as it does not affect them, they are just sending the money over regardless.

Also, the idiots that you mentioned were campaigning to remain, I wonder why ?

Oh dear God. You do. They spent it. On a statue.

ShahenshahG wrote:Presumably this is the same council that told you EU was at fault for business rates?

As I told you before, you need to go and educate yourself on all the rules and regulations that go with this area. Ask yourself why the business rates are put to where they are. Ask yourself where all the laws are guided from. We have to meet a quota to pay into the EU every year, and a big chunk of that money comes from business rates. This is the last time I am going to say this to you, as a business owner, I have taken this debate to the highest authority on the matter, which you are many runs of the ladder below, so I will not debate this with you. But I will finish with this, there is a lot of red tape around ALL things that are connected with running a business, and that red tape comes from the EU.

How many EU regulations apply to the erection of a statue? - if we're going to get serious about this.

SecretFly wrote:Statues

What started very much as a pointed joke on another thread becomes a serious discussion topic on this one.

What odds on asking the EU for some money to erect a statue to Farage?

JuliusHMarx wrote:so you'd like to leave the idiots in place

No, No, NO.

I want the idiots to be policed. They are not going to get that from some MEP in Brussels who I do not even know, or have never heard of.