England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

A bit early, but with squads due to be announced next week thought I'd start a thread to collate all winter tours news...

Firstly it appears the Bangladesh tour will go ahead despite security concerns. I for one am glad of this, gives England a chance to acclimatise to Asian conditions against an improving Bangladesh outfit (especially as England have no planned tour matches in India)

Secondly - it appears Haseeb Hameed will be getting the nod for Bangladesh according to Nick Hoult - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2016/08/29/england-plan-to-call-up-teenage-opener-haseeb-hameed-for-banglad/

Peoples initial thoughts on that?

[wisden]

why on earth would you drop root?! He's our best batsmen...drop ballance!

[msp83]

Seems the reserves are rather thin. When Vince was not yet picked, people talked about him. There was Lyth or Robson or Hales earlier. But now people are talking about Bell who was awful for 2 years after the 2013 Ashes, and was the same 2 years leading up to that series!
Perhaps it is time to pick up the phone and make that call to KP?!! Fact is that he'd been better than all of them!

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Hoping to awake at my 7am alarm to see Cook and Duckett in bat....

[Gooseberry]

3 drops off Ansari so far and 1 other

16 byes

2 lbws not given and not reviewed off Ali, both reviews now burnt

Rashid and Finn...garbage

England are creating lots of chances and chucking it away at the same time.

[alfie]

Finn hasn't actually bowled today so I am not sure how his refuse collection is relevant...

But it does look as though Bangladesh have got away from England once too often and are now in an unassailable position. Barring monsoon rains it seems England are heading for defeat some time tomorrow.

[msp83]

Bangladesh seemed yet again on the brink of a collapse when Shakib and Mushfiqur went in successive overs. But Sabir and Shuvagata kept throwing their bats at everything, middle a few, edged more, and put together a significant 29 in quick time. England looked like taking a wicket every ball, and in the last over before lunch, they got Sabir LBW through Rashid. At 268-7, Bangladesh lead by 244. Still a very chasable total. Don't expect their last 3 wickets to add much to it. England would be hoping to chase something around 250-260. If Cook or Root, and one or 2 of Stokes, Bairstow and Ali make a significant contribution, they should be home.......

[msp83]

And why on earth is Stokes trying to be taking over the mantle of the serial abuser from Anderson? He's very good as a cricketer, but this Anderson like behavior is cringe worthy. Just going on and on and on.......

[alfie]

Stokes has always been a bit combustible , msp .

Frustration , heat etc ...I am not surprised he's having a few words. Better to keep it in and use it as motivation maybe but we aren't all made that way...

Yes England will be hoping to snip off this tail smartly after lunch but surely Bangladesh already have too many ?

[alfie]

Tail-snipping going quite well as the angry Stokes and "rubbish" Rashid each strike quickly after refreshment...

Lead over 250 though with the last pair at the crease

[msp83]

Stokes has always been a bit combustible , msp .

Frustration , heat etc ...I am not surprised he's having a few words.  Better to keep it in and use it as motivation maybe but we aren't all made that way...

Yes England will be hoping to snip off this tail smartly after lunch but surely Bangladesh already have too many ?

Chasing 250 won't be the easiest of tasks on this track, but think England would manage. The top order will have to score some runs at some point don't they? Cook's due a score, 1 or 2 of Stokes, Ali, Bairstow and Woakes will come off. And if they get 2 decent partnerships, 250 won't be that much.
Shuvagata Hom, moves on to 21, and he takes Bangladesh pass 250 as far as the lead is concerned.
And as for Stokes, think he just have to keep things under check a bit. Yes they all are not alike, some are a bit more emotional than others. But Stokes really starting to irritate with his antics really. And he's a player I very much like otherwise.

[msp83]

What on earth is going on out there? The number 11 shielding the number 8? Shuvagata refused the single of Rashid's 4th ball, and in the next over, Rabbi takes 1 of the 5th ball!!

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

England have missed opportunities this morning it seems and unfortunately barring a couple of miracle innings this one has slipped away

[msp83]

Right, so after a 20 run last wicket partnership, Bangladesh are bowled out for 296. England would need 273 to win. Tough, challenging, turning track, batting last, but I still back England to pull this off.
There is too much experience and too much depth in batting there for Bangladesh to overcome.......

[guildfordbat]

Morning or evening all - just joining the live play, having seen a few morning highlights. A lot of chances going down - some hard to very hard, one straightforward with Ansari especially unlucky.

Rashid now cashing in with late order wickets and picking up a fourfer. I don't deny there's some value in that but I want to see a Test match bowler do it more against Test match batsmen.

270 odd to win. Going to be very difficult but I haven't thrown in the towel yet.

[alfie]

Well if they didn't have enough already I think this last wicket stand has taken it beyond England now...couldn't afford a frisky extra twenty runs .

Reason I think England can't chase this is that unlike Bangladesh they won't be able to score at four and five per over...so they're looking at meeting two new balls now ; and we saw in the first innings how quickly a new ball wrapped up the innings.

Batting against the Bangladesh spinners is just about possible once the ball gets soft ; but with a hard ball Mehedi and Shakib have been deadly .

It isn't technically out of reach I suppose. But unless England have learned a lot in a hurry I think a successful chase is extremely unlikely.

[alfie]

Morning guildford ...

Glad to see you still see a chance ; wish I could share your optimism !

Re Rashid : he actually ended up doing one of things he is supposedly in the side for ; cleaning up the tail. Four wickets in that final spell (and he even achieved a maiden at last !) The trouble is he had done nothing else in the match - with the ball , that is ; his batting effort was indeed excellent - and while this may work after a fashion with a six bowler attack , it really isn't something that is sustainable most of the time. So unless he can improve rapidly - presumably with whatever chances he gets in India - I really can't see him establishing a regular place in the Test team. Ansari might not have torn down many trees in this match , but I'd venture to say he has put himself ahead of the leggie for consideration in the future...

[guildfordbat]

Well if they didn't have enough already I think this last wicket stand has taken it beyond England now...couldn't afford a frisky extra twenty runs .

Reason I think England can't chase this is that unlike Bangladesh they won't be able to score at four and five per over...so they're looking at meeting two new balls now ; and we saw in the first innings how quickly a new ball wrapped up the innings.  

Batting against the Bangladesh spinners is just about possible once the ball gets soft ; but with a hard ball Mehedi and Shakib have been deadly .

It isn't technically out of reach I suppose. But unless England have learned a lot in a hurry I think a successful chase is extremely unlikely.

Hi Alfie - a continuing issue for England has been the failure of their bowlers to exert control and apply pressure. In the 50 overs from our spinners in Bangladesh's second innings, there were just 3 maidens.

[VTR]

We are toast here. Should have played our strongest team rather than this experimental pile of tosh. Would have liked a series win here as whatever happens we have no hope in India

[KO-KING]

Only broad is missing... This is probably the strongest team

England still favorites... Poor batting from everyone

BD made 280 on a worse pitch

[KO-KING]

Dropped

[KO-KING]

Good thing rahim is in a giving mood bowling hom

[msp83]

Rashid bowled well today and deserved his 4 wickets.
Would not say Ansari has jumped pass him in the line. Ansari was godawful in the first innings and looked every bit a parttime bowler that he really is. Not really the material for a test top 6 batsman either. Parttime bowler, parttime batsman. No, I must say I am not sure.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Morning or evening all - just joining the live play, having seen a few morning highlights. A lot of chances going down - some hard to very hard, one straightforward with Ansari especially unlucky.

Rashid now cashing in with late order wickets and picking up a fourfer. I don't deny there's some value in that but I want to see a Test match bowler do it more against Test match batsmen.

270 odd to win. Going to be very difficult but I haven't thrown in the towel yet.

To be fair to Rashid he did get Shakib and Sabbir out (him and Ansari bowled well today).

[alfie]

Oh I'm not sure of Ansari yet either , msp. But he came back quite well from a first innings hammering and took a couple of important wickets yesterday...and he did rather suffer from fielding errors today.

Plus as a finger spinner he is more likely than Rashid to develop into the type of bowler who might be of service to England in home conditions : but I am well aware he has a lot of developing to do.

Just think that England may be feeling Rashid is a bit too much the expensive luxury to be fitting into the team given Moeen is never going to become Mr Economy...

[Gooseberry]

Rashid boweld garbage though Olly, he gave away easy runs even to the tail. Ansari did really well to come back and Ali actually took two genuine wickets which were denied by poor umpiring.
Over the game Ali has been the pick of the three.

Really odd innings with several wickets coming from inocuous or bad balls and several deserved chances from quality boing denied by poor fielding, umpiring and sheer dumb luck. I guess thats cricket.

29 without loss...and we think its a great start. Says it all.

[guildfordbat]

Morning guildford ...

Glad to see you still see a chance ; wish I could share your optimism !

Re Rashid : he actually ended up doing one of things he is supposedly in the side for ; cleaning up the tail.  Four wickets in that final spell (and he even achieved a maiden at last !)   The trouble is he had done nothing else in the match - with the ball , that is ;  his batting effort was indeed excellent - and while this may work after a fashion with a six bowler attack , it really isn't something that is sustainable most of the time.  So unless he can improve rapidly - presumably with whatever chances he gets in India - I really can't see him establishing a regular place in the Test team.  Ansari might not have torn down many trees in this match , but I'd venture to say he has put himself ahead of the leggie for consideration in the future...

Hi again Alfie - I'm pretty much with you there on Rashid. Be particularly interested to hear other views, especially MfC's - he was keen for Rashid to have this opportunity without being blind to any concerns.

Whilst accepting Bangladesh are in the box seats, I feel that we are still in with a chance as, chasing under 280 against an inexperienced attack led by an inexperienced skipper, it'll take just two batsmen making decent scores (say, an 80 and a 50) to put us in contention. I don't claim those two individual scores will be at all easy but they are not impossible. Add to that, we bat down to number 10 and so others might be able to help chip away at the target.

[Gooseberry]

Ducketts gaining confidence...this is his chance. Still early days but hes looking on for a good score here.

[CaledonianCraig]

Like I said earlier Duckett should be persevered with. Sure no massive scores as yet but he has outscored Cook in what is his debut series.

[guildfordbat]

... Ansari did really well

... Says it all.

Gooseberry's true Surrey colours coming through.

[Gooseberry]

Guilford if england do this it would be a truely remarkable chase. They have never chased even close to this in Asia...and this is a real spinners pitch.

In theory they do have the batting and the depth but cooks forms rank, the top 4 lack runs desperatley and bangladesh have plenty of bowling.

Really though its the sheer amount of spin. It doesnt matter how well you bat, something can get you. England also cant afford to block and defend too much knowing the second new ball will kill them.

They will have to ride their luck to do this. Its going well so far mind.

[Gooseberry]

I heard hes moving to Middlesex Guilford

[Corporalhumblebucket]

44 - 0 brings the target (229) down to slightly more feasible proportions.  But a collapse against the spinners is, I imagine, constantly just around the corner.

Sounds as though Ansari was pretty unlucky not to bag several wickets today.

[CaledonianCraig]

The run chase stat can be misleading. England's highest run chase of 209 against Bangladesh was completed for the loss of one wicket so no doubt (if needed) they could have chased a heck of a lot more down on that occasion.

[VTR]

Decent start but one wicket can bring three or four. Especially as Ballance is a free wicket for them

[KO-KING]

Easy win from here trust me

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Good point made on TMS - keeping the run rate up is important - don't want to let them get to another new ball with too many left to get

[guildfordbat]

Guilford if england do this it would be a truely remarkable chase. They have never chased even close to this in Asia...and this is a real spinners pitch.

In theory they do have the batting and the depth but cooks forms rank, the top 4 lack runs desperatley and  bangladesh have plenty of bowling.

Really though its the sheer amount of spin. It doesnt matter how well you bat, something can get you. England also cant afford to block and defend too much knowing the second new ball will kill them.

They will have to ride their luck to do this. Its going well so far mind.

Just to be clear - I'm not disputing that Bangladesh are favourites. Even with a good start, I've been around long enough (even before Reg Varney passed his driving test - that's for Craig! ) to know that the current encouraging 65/0 could become a horrific 85/3.

However, I don't accept we have no chance. Mainly for the reasons stated in my last post. One extra thing - I do feel the ''never chased close to this in Asia'' is being a little overplayed, particularly by Sky. I think more attention needs to be paid to our opponents being Bangladesh and, even though they are on home soil, that doesn't automatically raise them to the level of India.

The game is on - that's what I'm really feeling and trying to say. At least for now.

[guildfordbat]

Good point made on TMS - keeping the run rate up is important - don't want to let them get to another new ball with too many left to get

Yes, the run rate is important. Alfie and I mentioned earlier the respective strength and weakness of Bangladesh's run rate and our failure to restrict it.

[msp83]

England absolutely running away with it. Strange early tactics from Mushfiqur, then a drop, and Duckett and Cook are going after the bowling.
Right approach from England, they need to stay positive....... The early threat from the new ball has been delt with, and Other than Cook or Root, someone from the top order has got a half-decent score.......

[CaledonianCraig]

Nice one Guildford. ;-)

I certainly agree with you about overplaying the run chase stat. England chased down 209 (highest in Asia) to beat Bangladesh in 2010 with one yes ONE wicket lost in the chase.

[VTR]

To play devils advocate, the one wicket down stat can also be overplayed, Bangladesh are a lot better nowadays and this wicket is very different to that one

I do expect though that any run chase in Asia stats are based on a pretty small sample size

[CaledonianCraig]

Granted VTR but India or Pakistan they are not even for their improvements.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Excellent fifty from Duckett

[CaledonianCraig]

A crucial knock for England and for him. That whets England on course for chasing down the total, settles him down and would say beds him into the opening slot for the next series.

[Corporalhumblebucket]

100- 0 at tea is an excellent and positive start by England.  Bangladesh, this time, struggling to contain scoring rate.

[guildfordbat]

Alfie - hope you're a bit more encouraged at tea.

Good work from our openers. A bit of luck for Duckett but he's played the right way and deserved his 50. Other than being a left hander, he reminds me of Middlesex and Ireland's right handed Paul Stirling. Similar in looks and attacking adventurous style.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

And the England collapse is on...

[alfie]

Alfie - hope you're a bit more encouraged at tea.

Good work from our openers. A bit of luck for Duckett but he's played the right way and deserved his 50. Other than being a left hander, he reminds me of Middlesex and Ireland's right handed Paul Stirling. Similar in looks and attacking adventurous style.

Very much so , guildford...(though just tempered a bit by the first ball after tea !)

That hundred stand , and especially the speed with which they scored it , has changed the game. The - originally improbable , I think - target now looks achievable ; the second new ball may well come too late for Bangladesh , and England's later batsmen will be encouraged.

Long way to go yet ; and the loss of Duckett ...and now Root ! ...means it is no sure thing.

In fact with Root going for one I'd say the home team remain favorites...

[CaledonianCraig]

I wouldn't know the full blown stats but I am confident that the lower half of the England batting has weighed in with more runs than the upper half. The collapses (when they have come) have been in the upper order and never with over 100 on the board for the loss of no wickets so I still make England warm favourites from here.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Guys everyone on here, twitter and Dominic cork talking like they haven't 1. Watched England bat in the sub continent and 2. Watched this series

Wickets fall in clusters, no team is ever out of it

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