England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

A bit early, but with squads due to be announced next week thought I'd start a thread to collate all winter tours news...

Firstly it appears the Bangladesh tour will go ahead despite security concerns. I for one am glad of this, gives England a chance to acclimatise to Asian conditions against an improving Bangladesh outfit (especially as England have no planned tour matches in India)

Secondly - it appears Haseeb Hameed will be getting the nod for Bangladesh according to Nick Hoult - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2016/08/29/england-plan-to-call-up-teenage-opener-haseeb-hameed-for-banglad/

Peoples initial thoughts on that?

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I never thought I'd long to here Ian Botham commentate but I'd listen to him on repeat for 24 hours over Dominic cork

[alfie]

I wouldn't know the full blown stats but I am confident that the lower half of the England batting has weighed in with more runs than the upper half. The collapses (when they have come) have been in the upper order and never with over 100 on the board for the loss of no wickets so I still make England warm favourites from here.

You have a pretty good record calling these results , Craig ...so I hope you are right again

But - as Cook survives an lbw on review by the skin of his teeth - you can see batting is not easy : these fourth innings chases tend to need at least two good partnerships to succeed ; we've seen one - another one is required . And getting started on this pitch is difficult.

Certainly not writing England off - as you say , the depth offers a lot of hope - but the chance for a cluster of wickets is still there with at least another 45 overs batting probably required.

If these two can see the score to 170 or so I'll agree England are favorites . Right now I reckon it's fairly even ; but history says there aren't too many successful fourth innings chases in these conditions/situation...and I'm not just talking about England.

Whatever happens this has been another excellent Test Match

[CaledonianCraig]

Yes you are thinking on the lines of myself. As in if the top order get to around 173 for 5 then I'd back the England tail to polish off the last 100 runs.

The key on these pitches is getting in. The longer you are in the easier it gets as you learn what to leave and what to play. Fifty up for Cook.

[CaledonianCraig]

Sorry but if that dismissal does not end Ballance's run in the side then I truly despair. Awful way to go.

[guildfordbat]

I never thought I'd long to here Ian Botham commentate but I'd listen to him on repeat for 24 hours over Dominic cork

Olly - I think I was first on here with ''Cork is dreadful'' but I'm happy to let you have it.

Talking of dreadful - the way Ballance is just out now!

[guildfordbat]

Guilford if england do this it would be a truely remarkable chase. They have never chased even close to this in Asia...and this is a real spinners pitch.

In theory they do have the batting and the depth but cooks forms rank, the top 4 lack runs desperatley and  bangladesh have plenty of bowling.

Really though its the sheer amount of spin. It doesnt matter how well you bat, something can get you. England also cant afford to block and defend too much knowing the second new ball will kill them.

They will have to ride their luck to do this. Its going well so far mind.

Just to be clear - I'm not disputing that Bangladesh are favourites. Even with a good start, I've been around long enough (even before Reg Varney passed his driving test - that's for Craig! ) to know that the current encouraging 65/0 could become a horrific 85/3.

However, I don't accept we have no chance. Mainly for the reasons stated in my last post. One extra thing - I do feel the ''never chased close to this in Asia'' is being a little overplayed, particularly by Sky. I think more attention needs to be paid to our opponents being Bangladesh and, even though they are on home soil, that doesn't automatically raise them to the level of India.

The game is on - that's what I'm really feeling and trying to say. At least for now.  

124/4 now is probably more horrific than 85/3.

Not over yet but Bangladesh firmly in the driving seat.

[VTR]

At least the top order collapse came with a few runs on the board for once. Awful as ever though, now need two players to make 50s (that can include Cook topping up his 50 to a ton) . Looks a long way off now

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

And that'll be that folks

[VTR]

Yep, this is over. Such an utterly dysfunctional top order, literally pathetic. Spinners as a unit are woeful. India will easily whitewash us

[Gooseberry]

Jesus this game keeps moving on doesnt it. Stepped away for a couple of hours and its bedlam.

The target was always nigh on impossible...but they waybtheyve chucked away the great start is shocking. It should just be starting to get easier at the point the collapse happened as the ball softens.

[KO-KING]

It's ok now tall is out of the way

[KO-KING]

Tail*

[Gooseberry]

Craig...yes the lower halh have consitently got far more runs than the upper half of the order, not just this series but going back some time. Their highest avergaing (by a long way) wickets are 7 and 8.
Ali scored a lot in the tail...at 5 hes struggling to buy runs. And thats a thing ...these guys who have had a go over the last few years ( theres been a LOT of changes to englands top 5) arent bad players. Their seems to be a collective mindflup between them. Its not just spinners and this pitch they have done the same at home.

Still the target over 250 was always unlikely for any side.

[guildfordbat]

More than half way there and still half our wickets left.

Ok, that's a pretty desperate interpretation and Bangladesh are clear favourites now but I still don't accept it's all over yet. Bangladesh won't be celebrating as long as Bairstow or Stokes are there.

136 more needed. Get that under 100 with these two still at the crease and the game will once more be very much on.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Can't believe some of you have hope.

[guildfordbat]

Can't believe some of you have hope.

Dolph - aren't you a West Ham supporter?

[CaledonianCraig]

Bairstow goes. If Bangladesh do win here they will have merited a share of the spoils for me.

It has been a cracking series and I find it a shame that Bangladesh are starved of test cricket for the sake of the shorter forms which (I am sorry) is less of my cup of tea. Tragic that the powers that be seem intent on watering down test cricket to push the inferior forms of the sport. Rant over.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Exactly, I know a lost cause when I see one

[guildfordbat]

Oi, oi, what's all this about putting Woakes in ahead of Zaf?!

[KO-KING]

Ok

Remember hom and rabbi might come on

[KO-KING]

Woakes is better batsmen than the rest

[CaledonianCraig]

Although the match won't be finished today (you would have thought) the last 10+ overs will go some way to deciding it. Another couple of wickets for Bangladesh and England closing on around 180 for 8 and all that will be completed tomorrow is the formalities for Bangladesh to end the series level at 1-1. If this pair can dig in and play their shots and survive with England around 190 for 6 then England would be back in the box seat.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Feather touch

[KO-KING]

Didn't think stokes thought he touched it

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Pack your bags

[guildfordbat]

I for one am extremely excited for Ansari's 29 (131) on day two

Could do with this spread across days four and five.

[alfie]

Well I did say a collapse at some point was likely...

If Root had got a start maybe...but otherwise this was always the more likely outcome.

Encouraging effort from Duckett ; and good to see Cook back in runs.  But they need to find someone who can bat in the middle order and add him to the squad...call Ian Bell ?

Well done Bangladesh

[dyrewolfe]

Hey look, we've gone and done a Bangladesh!

Or, to put it another way, a 90s style England collapse.

What utter rubbish! To go from 100 - 0 to 161 - 9 is just embarrassing.

Seems we're just not learning from previous mistakes. We are also continuing that trend of only 2 players making a decent score in each innings.

[VTR]

What a load of rubbish!

[Hammersmith harrier]

Complete rubbish from England but this match highlights why I don't watch sub-continent games, it makes average spinners look like world beaters and no spinner in this match is anything more than that.

[KO-KING]

Some great bowling but balance is grade A crap

I said he wasn't all that when he was going well... He's just not good

[KP_fan]

--the beautiful game of test cricket..... a spectacle for a neutral viewer to watch an underdog upset a heavyeight of test match cricket

--BD was an all round better team...especially better top order batting and better quality spin bowling......Eng competed in the first test because of their superior discipline, organized approach and depth in batting....and won ONLY because they won the toss (as I stated earlier)and by 20 odd runs 

and when they lost the toss they lost by a 100 runs.

[KO-KING]

Complete rubbish from England but this match highlights why I don't watch sub-continent games, it makes average spinners look like world beaters and no spinner in this match is anything more than that.

Well you're nuts

This games not like Indian pitches with nothing in it for like Indian pitches, good seam bowling got help, look at stokes and broad

Shakib Taijul and Mehedi average?

I'll love any of them in England... Shakib just as a bowler even

[dyrewolfe]

Okay people were saying (including me) that chasing 250+ was a tough ask, but when Cook and Duckett got us off to such a good start, it should have been achievable.

England have been truly humbled here and made to look mediocre by a nation that hasn't beaten us in god knows how long.

We were lucky to win the first match and to escape with a drawn series.

When, oh when, are we going to get a batting lineup that does what its supposed to? This "batting to 11" nonsense seems to have made everyone play like headless chickens. I've lost count of how many times our innings have been rescued by 1 or 2 good individual performances. This time even that wasn't enough.

Hope everyone involved with the England team pauses to reflect on this...but they'll probably just shrug and go "it was just a warm-up for India so it doesn't matter".

[CaledonianCraig]

A fair series result for me. Much for England to work on before the India tour such as who replaces Ballance? Who is back up spinner to Ali? Which seamers do they go with? Cracking series this was though.

[KO-KING]

Worried for England vs india

Mehedi what a bowler, he'd get wickets on any grass top pitch too, drift line and length nothing to do with pitch, no doubt pitch helped to get 12 wickets, but he's a talent

[KO-KING]

Drop Rob keys son for bell... Yep I'd bring him back

[KP_fan]

England's biggest question would be around getting the balance of playing 11 right...question like folloiwing arise in my mind...

1) although I don't rate Batty very high.....why did they drop Batty afer he did an OK job on a square turner
was it for the percieved batting of Ansari

2) Finn ....knowing what the pitch is like what was the point of having him in the 11...even Woakes was under bowled...but he can bat 

3) will they play the 3rd seamer in India or better to have a proper batsman instead ( Butler would make a differnce)

and Eng clearly have a non existent top order...especially when  Root and Cook do not  a hundred...which is hard on these pitches their 50s are not good enough to hold their innings....

their fall back position is to pack their side with useful batters down to No.10.......no sure if that's the right approach.
also not sure if they have a better alternative ( although Butler should somehow play) 

They do have the option of getting back KP...the man who turned it around last tour with a smashing double hundred in T2.

Eng's all the spinners on display...Ali, Rashid, Ansari and batty...just put the ball there.....don't impart rip and high revs like Monty and Swann did on last tour.

If Monty is playing any sorta FC cricket...it's worth bringing him on

[dyrewolfe]

Anyway, fair play to Bangladesh. Despite their supposedly weak batting lineup (and it really isn't the best) they made England sweat in the first match and comprehensively outplayed them in the second.

In much the same way that sub continent teams struggle to adapt to English conditions, we utterly failed to cope with their bowling.

In fairness I don't think our bowling attack was terrible, but did lack control at crucial stages and were helped by Bangladesh gifting their wickets on quite a few occasions, with their tendency to play ODI /T20 shots. Overall our spinners took wickets but were more expensive than their counterparts and our seamers were relatively ineffectual, with the exception of Stokes...and I think its unfair to expect him to keep digging England out of holes with both bat and ball.

Think our frequently shocking batting that is the biggest problem. Top order failing to make any runs time after time. Middle order often unreliable, apart from Stokes and Bairstow (and they're not going to fire every time).

[guildfordbat]

Rob Key acknowledging Buttler has no recent red ball experience but sees ''something special'' and keen to get him in England's middle order.

I like Key and feel he's worth a listen. Some Surrey bias there which you can take either way - Surrey's management have a high regard for Key and consulted him before taking on Graeme Ford (previously at Kent with Key) as head coach about three years ago.

Even if we don't go with Buttler, something has to be done. Olly is right about wickets often falling in clusters but, even so, a feeble falling apart by England after Duckett and Cook had given them such a good start. 270 odd was always going to be a tall order but we should have got a lot closer.

As Cook flagged in his post match interview, we should have been chasing less as well. Hindered by too many missed chances. Admittedly some were difficult but we still needed to be taking more of them.

Not sure we've really learned much about a likely eleven for India which is perhaps as concerning as anything.

Only fair to also give a lot of credit to Mehedi. Be interesting to see how he goes in the future.

[VTR]

Did I just read that KP and Monty are part of the answer. Nurse!

[alfie]

--the beautiful game of test cricket..... a spectacle for a neutral viewer to watch an underdog upset a heavyeight of test match cricket

--BD was an all round better team...especially better top order batting and better quality spin bowling......Eng competed in the first test because of their superior discipline, organized approach and depth in batting....and won ONLY because they won the toss (as I stated earlier)and by 20 odd runs 

and when they lost the toss they lost by a 100 runs.

In truth the toss probably decided both games. Good Test Series. One all was a fair result.

[alfie]

Did I just read that KP and Monty are part of the answer. Nurse!

KP_fan was certain to pull that nonsense out as soon as he got a chance. Suppose England's performance in this match gave him one

We aren't meant to take it seriously.

[dyrewolfe]

Buttler's been tried before though and he hasn't done any better than, say Bairstow, has he?

He's not someone you'd want to depend on to hold an innings together...more of a slog a quick 30-40 type of player (and we've already got a few of those).

[KO-KING]

That's 20 and 30 more than ballance, I'll take Buttler all day

Batty is crap, lucky wickets

[guildfordbat]

Buttler's been tried before though and he hasn't done any better than, say Bairstow, has he?

He's not someone you'd want to depend on to hold an innings together...more of a slog a quick 30-40 type of player (and we've already got a few of those).

Yes, I'm far from certain that Buttler is the solution. However, unless there is to be a sudden and remarkable transformation in Ballance's form, something has to be done and all options (of which there aren't too many on this tour) have to be seriously considered. Key's view at least causes me to think we should have Buttler in the mix of possibles.

[alfie]

After the opening stand indeed England ought to have made a much better fight of it...but unfortunately once Root and Moeen failed it was asking too much of the late order to do yet another rescue ; Bairstow was overdue for a failure , unfortunately.
Recovering from 6 down might happen in the first innings ; but it was never likely chasing in the fourth on this pitch.

What it means going forward is that Bayliss is going to have to earn his corn. England set this game out as at least partially a trial for India rather than a full blooded attempt to win a Test Match and series - and that attitude might arguably have contributed to this loss.(Broad might not have made the difference : but he'd have bowled a lot more than Finn , whose contribution to this match was virtually nonexistent . And although Ansari's debut was not wasted , and may pay dividends in the future , they missed Batty)

England go to India chastened ; and with big question marks over several positions. Trouble is it is easier to drop players than to find replacements ...Not completely joking when I suggest that Bell was perhaps too hastily discarded in view of the obviously frail middle order.
I see a few people still promoting Buttler . I'd like to believe they are right but to be honest I think that suggesting he would prove a success in the top order is a complete leap of faith - a hope that England might "play a joker" , as it were ...and that sort of selectorial punt just doesn't work.

Clearly even Bayliss must have exhausted his faith in Ballance by now. So Hameed must play in India (can't do any worse) and I'd fit him in at three after Duckett's second innings effort here.
So :
Cook Duckett Hameed Root Ali Stokes Bairstow...followed by the bowlers ; who will depend on the conditions - but are unlikely to include Finn !

That Indian series looms as a Very Tough Assignment in the light of these last few days...

[guildfordbat]

That's 20 and 30 more than ballance, I'll take Buttler all day

Batty is crap, lucky wickets

I'm not going to die in a ditch defending all of Batty's performance in the first Test. He started off a bit short and slow and got punished for it. However, I felt he got better as the match went on. I do disagree totally that his 4 wickets then were lucky - they were all from decent to very decent balls.

[alfie]

Batty took important - and timely - wickets in the first Test. Although his final figures weren't great (some late slogging damaged them a little ) he actually exerted more control than the other spinners and was certainly the bowler Cook trusted more than his colleagues.
I think he will play in the first Test against India.

[dyrewolfe]

Buttler's been tried before though and he hasn't done any better than, say Bairstow, has he?

He's not someone you'd want to depend on to hold an innings together...more of a slog a quick 30-40 type of player (and we've already got a few of those).

Yes, I'm far from certain that Buttler is the solution. However, unless there is to be a sudden and remarkable transformation in Ballance's form, something has to be done and all options (of which there aren't too many on this tour) have to be seriously considered. Key's view at least causes me to think we should have Buttler in the mix of possibles.

Oh, I agree Ballance has to go, but I think we should be looking for someone more in the mould of Root to bat that far up the order.

Also surprised Moeen has been promoted so far up the order. Is it to do with the turning sub-continent pitches and the high use of spin?

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