Ward vs Kovalev - Who've you got?

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I can’t let a fight as big as this weekend pass without a thread asking for folks thoughts. For me this is one of those odd fights that I am looking forward to enormously but suspect might well fail to ignite. I suspect intriguing rather than exciting may accurately describe it. Got to say since this has been announced I have been picking Ward. I rate both of them highly but just think Ward is a special talent, a lot more rounded and like Mayweather one with an exceptional ability to shut opponents down and neutralise them.
 
That being said Kovalev is no underdog or no hoper, this is a genuinely close fight, and one in which you can make an argument either way. Whilst people rightly wax lyrical about Kovalev’s power his boxing ability should not be underplayed, few since Jones have solved the numerous riddles Hopkins poses so effectively. Also he is a natural big hitting light heavy, something Ward has never faced, whilst his defence has always looked solid at super middle he is not completely unhittable. Froch had his moments where he was able to land, so one would assume Sergey will be able to do likewise. How Ward stands up to that is one of the big questions in this one.
 
Also whilst Ward is hardly an old man his career post Super six has had more stops and starts than me attempting to run a marathon. Being in the ring with Kovalev would not be a place I would want to be blowing off a dose of ring rust. Despite that, I still think Ward will be victorious, he is smart at tying up/holding on the inside and fast enough that he will score with plenty when the fight is at range. If the ref is pretty easy going when it comes to his holding inside, and thus far he has tended to get away with it, I think he will secure the win on points.
 
All of this almost certainly guarantees you can put your house on Kovalev, but irrespective of the outcome I cannot wait for this fight. A genuine talent moving up to take on the best the division above him has to offer, this is the sort of fight the sport needs more of.

You can't score a fight then Dylan, Froch won 5, 11 and 12 that was it.

So many fully trained and qualified judges on here. None of us have any training, professional experience or qualifications in scoring fights, we're all enthusiastic amateurs at best.

Dylan1979 wrote:I had Ward beating Froch 7-5

Even Froch knows he lost lol

I scored a narrow win for  kovalev. I felt there were a number of swing rounds, which I probably edged more of to Ward. If I hadn't tried to split them and just shared those rounds I'd have had it a little wider for kov.. which I guess is the consensus.

But, I can see a spread that would have someone scoring for Ward if they just preferred his work in those swing rounds. It's not bent, it's not even incompetent, it's opinion.

And you don't have to be a Ward fan to come to that conclusion. You may have left school Dylan but these fanboy comments because someone disagrees with your score is playground stuff.

There are some fights where the rounds are easy to score, and 115-113 is close but there can only be one winner. Some fights you can have a huge spread of cards but can see why.

De la Hoya has been brought up. De la Hoya Trinidad was a controversial fight where the significant majority of press and fans thought the wrong guy got the nod. I'm not after a rise either, haz, but from memory you think Trinidad won. You're not alone, but it's the minority view. Presumably, you think there were swing rounds that most gave to Oscar and you gave to Trinidad (presumably the first 4 rounds?) From a scoring perspective how is that different to this?

AdamT wrote:

Dylan1979 wrote:I had Ward beating Froch 7-5

Even Froch knows he lost lol

No. it didn't count as a loss because ward ran away and didn't want to fight. Kessler loss doesn't count either because it was avenged.

The imassive international superstar retired undefeated.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:You can't score a fight then Dylan, Froch won 5, 11 and 12 that was it.

Two judges had it 115-113

milkyboy wrote:

AdamT wrote:

Dylan1979 wrote:I had Ward beating Froch 7-5

Even Froch knows he lost lol

No. it didn't count as a loss because ward ran away and didn't want to fight. Kessler loss doesn't count either because it was avenged.

The imassive international superstar retired undefeated.

Don't forget the jetlag, milky.

Dylan1979 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:You can't score a fight then Dylan, Froch won 5, 11 and 12 that was it.

Two judges had it 115-113

Ah right, so we should respect and accept judges' scorecards as legitimate, then? Thanks for clearing that up, Dylan. Makes me wonder why you've spend the entirety of last week arguing the complete opposite, mind you, but thanks for clearing it up anyway.

Ward only wins on points If he gets an American ref again

If it's neutral he gets dqed or koed

Man you have got to study him as a fighter you clearly just don't see it

88Chris05 wrote:

Dylan1979 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:You can't score a fight then Dylan, Froch won 5, 11 and 12 that was it.

Two judges had it 115-113

Ah right, so we should respect and accept judges' scorecards as legitimate, then? Thanks for clearing that up, Dylan. Makes me wonder why you've spend the entirety of last week arguing the complete opposite, mind you, but thanks for clearing it up anyway.

Did I say that judges are paid in every single fight that takes place?

Judges turn in questionable scoring all the time in boxing. I mean all the time. Not just overall verdicts, but individual rounds. I find that in big fights which are widely covered, if the general concensus is significantly different to the official verdict, its a sign the scores were off. This particular fight is an example, but there are tons of others.

Dylan1979 wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:

Dylan1979 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:You can't score a fight then Dylan, Froch won 5, 11 and 12 that was it.

Two judges had it 115-113

Ah right, so we should respect and accept judges' scorecards as legitimate, then? Thanks for clearing that up, Dylan. Makes me wonder why you've spend the entirety of last week arguing the complete opposite, mind you, but thanks for clearing it up anyway.

Did I say that judges are paid in every single fight that takes place?

No, only in the ones where you don't agree with the verdict. You got me.

milkyboy wrote:I scored a narrow win for  kovalev. I felt there were a number of swing rounds, which I probably edged more of to Ward. If I hadn't tried to split them and just shared those rounds I'd have had it a little wider for kov.. which I guess is the consensus.

But, I can see a spread that would have someone scoring for Ward if they just preferred his work in those swing rounds. It's not bent, it's not even incompetent, it's opinion.

And you don't have to be a Ward fan to come to that conclusion. You may have left school Dylan but these fanboy comments because someone disagrees with your score is playground stuff.

There are some fights where the rounds are easy to score, and 115-113 is close but there can only be one winner. Some fights you can have a huge spread of cards but can see why.

De la Hoya has been brought up. De la Hoya Trinidad was a controversial fight where the significant majority of press and fans thought the wrong guy got the nod. I'm not after a rise either, haz, but from memory you think Trinidad won. You're not alone, but it's the minority view. Presumably, you think there were swing rounds that most gave to Oscar and you gave to Trinidad (presumably the first 4 rounds?) From a scoring perspective how is that different to this?

I was a huge Trinidad fan and hold my hands up - that may have swayed me his way in some of the close rounds. I wanted Tito to win that fight so badly, it would be very hard to have remained completely impartial (you wouldn't have had me on the judging panel, that's for sure). I think very obviously, Ward fans (and I'm not saying everyone who scored for Ward had the same issue, but some) had the same quandary here.

That fight was also a fight of two halves, but while Oscar won most of the early rounds, Tito won most of the late ones. And the only swing rounds (from memory) were early and in mid-fight (Oscar just gave up the last four).

Whereas that was a fight where it seemed no one deserved to win (both men disappointed and didn't show up for long spells) I think Kovalev-Ward was much easier to score and there was a clear winner. Press scores may have favoured Oscar (I don't recall the split) but they were all one or two point decisions one way or another (Lederman scored it 114-114).

To score for Ward, you really had to give him everything you possibly could and with a knockdown against him, I find that impossible. While a few people managed to give him a one point win, there were others (good judges) who had it wide for the Russian (Lederman scored it 116-111, for example).

My Tito score was in the minority, no doubt. And while I'd happily argue his case, my view is that neither man was a true winner that night. Their reputations took a knock, so appalling was the fight. Takes some doing that.

Rowley wrote:So many fully trained and qualified judges on here. None of us have any training, professional experience or qualifications in scoring fights, we're all enthusiastic amateurs at best.

How did you have it Rowls? and what were your reasons for it. Also as the resident expert round here (seriously btw) what were your thoughts on the fight and the whole shenanigans afterwards with people shouting robbery?

hazharrison wrote:

milkyboy wrote:I scored a narrow win for  kovalev. I felt there were a number of swing rounds, which I probably edged more of to Ward. If I hadn't tried to split them and just shared those rounds I'd have had it a little wider for kov.. which I guess is the consensus.

But, I can see a spread that would have someone scoring for Ward if they just preferred his work in those swing rounds. It's not bent, it's not even incompetent, it's opinion.

And you don't have to be a Ward fan to come to that conclusion. You may have left school Dylan but these fanboy comments because someone disagrees with your score is playground stuff.

There are some fights where the rounds are easy to score, and 115-113 is close but there can only be one winner. Some fights you can have a huge spread of cards but can see why.

De la Hoya has been brought up. De la Hoya Trinidad was a controversial fight where the significant majority of press and fans thought the wrong guy got the nod. I'm not after a rise either, haz, but from memory you think Trinidad won. You're not alone, but it's the minority view. Presumably, you think there were swing rounds that most gave to Oscar and you gave to Trinidad (presumably the first 4 rounds?) From a scoring perspective how is that different to this?

I was a huge Trinidad fan and hold my hands up - that may have swayed me his way in some of the close rounds. I wanted Tito to win that fight so badly, it would be very hard to have remained completely impartial (you wouldn't have had me on the judging panel, that's for sure). I think very obviously, Ward fans (and I'm not saying everyone who scored for Ward had the same issue, but some) had the same quandary here.

That fight was also a fight of two halves, but while Oscar won most of the early rounds, Tito won most of the late ones. And the only swing rounds (from memory) were early and in mid-fight (Oscar just gave up the last four).

Whereas that was a fight where it seemed no one deserved to win (both men disappointed and didn't show up for long spells) I think Kovalev-Ward was much easier to score and there was a clear winner. Press scores may have favoured Oscar (I don't recall the split) but they were all one or two point decisions one way or another (Lederman scored it 114-114).

To score for Ward, you really had to give him everything you possibly could and with a knockdown against him, I find that impossible. While a few people managed to give him a one point win, there were others (good judges) who had it wide for the Russian (Lederman scored it 116-111, for example).

My Tito score was in the minority, no doubt. And while I'd happily argue his case, my view is that neither man was a true winner that night. Their reputations took a knock, so appalling was the fight. Takes some doing that.

Fair enough if that's how you see it. Oscar blotted his copy book in the last 3 rounds, no doubt. Trinidad, to be fair just couldn't deal with oscar's movement, it's not like he wasn't trying, he just couldn't get off. Oscar chose to make it a chess match. I think the press cards were 70:30ish, internet polls a bit wider.

I like lederman, he's a straight talker, but he scored round 5 to Trinidad, which takes some doing.. none of the three judges did. I felt you could make a case for Trinidad, but you had to give him all the benefit of doubt... which is where I see the similarities.

I wouldn't advocate Compubox as a guide for Oscar/Tito as a lot of oscars jabs were flicks, but it was a landslide for him. In Ward kovalev where clean jabs were probably the only currency I think the stats are a reasonable guide... and they paint a tight fight, in kovalev's favour.

Derbymanc wrote:

Rowley wrote:So many fully trained and qualified judges on here. None of us have any training, professional experience or qualifications in scoring fights, we're all enthusiastic amateurs at best.

How did you have it Rowls? and what were your reasons for it. Also as the resident expert round here (seriously btw) what were your thoughts on the fight and the whole shenanigans afterwards with people shouting robbery?

what type of resident is rowley an expert on? psychiatric hospital perhaps? Handy as a mod on here.

if he can keep us lot in shape and get us agreeing sometimes he must be some kind of expert

I had it by Kovalev by a point if memory serves, however can't get too het up about it. Plenty of people whose opinions I respect enormously had it the other way and there was so little action particularly in the second half of the fight for most rounds you could come up with pretty much any outcome you saw fit. There weren't more than two or three rounds that were categorically in one fighters favour. I think Kovalev can feel hard done to, but not cheated or robbed.

Rowley wrote:I had it by Kovalev by a point if memory serves, however can't get too het up about it. Plenty of people whose opinions I respect enormously had it the other way and there was so little action particularly in the second half of the fight for most rounds you could come up with pretty much any outcome you saw fit. There weren't more than two or three rounds that were categorically in one fighters favour. I think Kovalev can feel hard done to, but not cheated or robbed.

I think that's a considered, balanced opinion I expect to see in a genuine "could have gone either way" type fight - an antidote the the more reactionary "he wuz robbed" cries that litter social media.

This just wasn't one of those fights. Kovalev won more clearly than Frampton did over LSC. Would people have been outraged if LSC had been given that one?

No I wouldn't and I'm a Frampton fan. I think he should of won, but it was very tight.

I thought the fight was close and competitive, but clear win for kovalev all the same. Its attracting so much debate because most think kovalev won. The crowd booing the decision, 75% of the media scoring for tge russian etc. If kovalev got the decision, i think there would be less controversy on it.

Well the 25% are allowed their voice. I happily admit I'm not in the majority and my opinion matters no more Than anyone else's, but I think and always will think that Ward won.

Maybe the Sky commentary influenced you Adam?

Naw mate, not at all. I gave him 7 close rounds. I'm not saying I'm right, it is what I saw.

I'm not a judge, so it doesn't mean I'm right.

hazharrison wrote:

Rowley wrote:I had it by Kovalev by a point if memory serves, however can't get too het up about it. Plenty of people whose opinions I respect enormously had it the other way and there was so little action particularly in the second half of the fight for most rounds you could come up with pretty much any outcome you saw fit. There weren't more than two or three rounds that were categorically in one fighters favour. I think Kovalev can feel hard done to, but not cheated or robbed.

I think that's a considered, balanced opinion I expect to see in a genuine "could have gone either way" type fight - an antidote the the more reactionary "he wuz robbed" cries that litter social media.

This just wasn't one of those fights. Kovalev won more clearly than Frampton did over LSC. Would people have been outraged if LSC had been given that one?

Sorry for getting it wrong.

Surely there's a contract in place, surely the rematch has to happen next, surely there's no way Ward and Hunter can get out of this?:

http://www.boxingscene.com/freddie-roach-not-convinced-ward-kovalev-rematch-happen--111310

Ward has to rematch him or they'll be a lot of peed off people, not just the ones that thought Kov won but from those that have stuck up for Ward stating he won.

For me personally (I seem to use that a lot lately???) it'll be a bit of a kick in the teeth if he doesn't and maybe shows he's a lot more worried about Kov than he's let on

https://youtu.be/xJj67eE2JN8

Ward not serious about retirement imo saw a video other day in one sentence he said he was thinking about retirement in the next was saying how he feels he's got a lot more to offer the game just getting greedy that's all let's hope they can sort out the rematch soon Duva said the first available date is April and her man's up for it right then:

http://www.boxingscene.com/kovalev-if-ward-retires-everyone-realize-he-coward--111980

Pretty much accomplished everything he's wanted to accomplish?

Do me a favour he hasn't accomplished proving he's a better fighter than Sergy Kovalev most people believe the Russian won their fight:

http://www.boxingscene.com/andre-ward-i-fight-anymore-i-accomplished-everything--112359

Its probably a negotiating tactic most likely, I don't pay attention to it

Had fans on reddit who are American saying they find it very very difficult to like Ward, who is an Olympic Gold Medalist and a p4p fighter at the top end of the scale

But some of the things he does just really annoy them

Herman Jaeger wrote:Pretty much accomplished everything he's wanted to accomplish?

Do me a favour he hasn't accomplished proving he's a better fighter than Sergy Kovalev most people believe the Russian won their fight:

http://www.boxingscene.com/andre-ward-i-fight-anymore-i-accomplished-everything--112359

Have more respect for a modern day great.......He cleaned up 168 and beat the two number 1 men at 175....

By all means think Kovalev won..........But endlessly abusing a guy that has been there and got the T-shirt whilst eulogizing over a guy who's best win is Nathan Cleverley..

Makes you look a wally..

Beat the two number one men at 175 surprised you don't think Stevenson is number one wouldn't put it past you if you do think that not the most logical member of the forum with respect

Maybe Ward feels he's slipped a little since his best days at 168? The reality is closer to the fact he fought, comfortably, the best fighter of his career and wasn’t able to have things all his own way.

It smacks more of grandstanding to me. I'm sure he's been stung by the feedback he's heard/read from people who feel Kovalev won the fight.

I'd be surprised if a man with Ward's ego could retire at this point but I’d be equally thrown if he goes back in with Kovalev when Joe Smith and a payday is sitting right there in front of him.

Herman Jaeger wrote:Beat the two number one men at 175 surprised you don't think Stevenson is number one wouldn't put it past you if you do think that not the most logical member of the forum with respect

I expected nothing better......

What would make more sense is for Ward to grab the obvious carrot that is Joe Smith whilst Kovalev goes for Stevenson (or vice-versa) with the victors meeting each other in a winner takes all super-bout for all 4 belts.

I rate Ward but don't like to watch him as I find his fighting style tedious and safety first. I just hope he does go for the rematch. I felt that Kovalev did enough to win a close decision by 1 to 2 rounds, and found that there was too much of a home-town bias given by the judges. It seemed that the vast majority of Boxing writers agreed with only 25% going for Ward and 2% rating it a draw. I got this from good ol' Boxrec http://boxrec.com/media/index.php?title=Fight:2098240

Whatever my thoughts, Ward was given the decision and in my book really should give Kovalev the rematch as let's face it, the Russian gave him his hardest fight by some margin. To be the best in boxing, you should really beat the best, which Ward did not do emphatically enough (unlike the Froch and Dawson fights). I think that there's enough clamour for these two to get it back on - Kovalev will want his titles back and Ward should want to prove that the first decision was correct.

You can't deny that Ward has passed every test that's been set for him, with the obvious exception of providing excitement. I know which of the two I'd rather watch.

Mr Bounce wrote:What would make more sense is for Ward to grab the obvious carrot that is Joe Smith whilst Kovalev goes for Stevenson (or vice-versa) with the victors meeting each other in a winner takes all super-bout for all 4 belts.

I rate Ward but don't like to watch him as I find his fighting style tedious and safety first. I just hope he does go for the rematch. I felt that Kovalev did enough to win a close decision by 1 to 2 rounds, and found that there was too much of a home-town bias given by the judges. It seemed that the vast majority of Boxing writers agreed with only 25% going for Ward and 2% rating it a draw. I got this from good ol' Boxrec http://boxrec.com/media/index.php?title=Fight:2098240

Whatever my thoughts, Ward was given the decision and in my book really should give Kovalev the rematch as let's face it, the Russian gave him his hardest fight by some margin. To be the best in boxing, you should really beat the best, which Ward did not do emphatically enough (unlike the Froch and Dawson fights). I think that there's enough clamour for these two to get it back on - Kovalev will want his titles back and Ward should want to prove that the first decision was correct.

You can't deny that Ward has passed every test that's been set for him, with the obvious exception of providing excitement. I know which of the two I'd rather watch.

Agree with most of that..

Ward can do what he likes...........He has earned the right....

Kovo v Cleverley....Cloud......Grandad.....Chilemba....Pascal......Remember ?????......... Before Ward....

Why do Ward, Mayweather, Manny types always have to fight the best ??....

Double standards as usual..

Ward cannot do as he likes
He signed a rematch clause. He should honour it, or p#@s off

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Why do Ward, Mayweather, Manny types always have to fight the best ??....

Because they usually ARE the best. Anything else is seen as cruising and therefore no challenge. The top tennis players always face each other. The top footballers, rugby players, golfers, athletes and even F1 drivers are facing the best in their respective sports at all times. Why should boxers get a pass?

Oh and for your

"Kovo v Cleverley....Cloud......Grandad.....Chilemba....Pascal......Remember ?????......... Before Ward...."

How's about this:

Ward vs Rodriguez....Smith.....Barrera..... Brand.... Remember????....... Before Kovalev.....

DOUBLE STANDARDS.

PS Kovalev hasn't fought Cloud.

In fairness I wouldn't mind seeing Ward fight Smith but only and I repeat only if Stevenson and Kovalev face off. Winner vs winner that would be a perfect scenario

Thing is though how can Ward get out of the rematch without facing some kind of legal action

And personally I think when a champion is undisputed or clearly number one in his division he should have to take on the toughest challenges one after the other no soft touches that's why I never thought of Floyd as much of a champion same with Ward. Great fighters though. Floyd clearly ducked Margarito

Mr Bounce wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Why do Ward, Mayweather, Manny types always have to fight the best ??....

Because they usually ARE the best. Anything else is seen as cruising and therefore no challenge. The top tennis players always face each other. The top footballers, rugby players, golfers, athletes and even F1 drivers are facing the best in their respective sports at all times. Why should boxers get a pass?

Without belaboring the point.....GGG has fought ordinary opponents for 6 years......

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Without belaboring the point.....GGG has fought ordinary opponents for 6 years......

And his most dangerous opponent dumped the belt and ran away rather than face him. Not defending GGG, but fighting at MW alone, he's definitely number 1. Not his fault if the number 2 doesn't want it.

Mr Bounce wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Without belaboring the point.....GGG has fought ordinary opponents for 6 years......

And his most dangerous opponent dumped the belt and ran away rather than face him. Not defending GGG, but fighting at MW alone, he's definitely number 1. Not his fault if the number 2 doesn't want it.

I agree he has been avoided.....But there has always been 168...

Ward moved up...

Ward moved up because he had to he couldn't make weight

Ggg on the other hand is having no such trouble

Yvon Michel still using Kovalev's name to sell Stevenson's next fight just wish they had the class to leave Kovalev alone if they have no intention of fighting him:

http://www.boxingscene.com/adonis-stevenson-career-plan-2017-outlined-by-promoter--112369

BoxingFan88 wrote:Ward moved up because he had to he couldn't make weight

Ggg on the other hand is having no such trouble

Bollox...

Can't handle the facts?

That's OK truss I can give them to you if you like

Why do so many on here dislike Ward?

Ward moved up and fought Kovalev that is a fact, Golovkin is happy to stay at Middleweight that is also a fact, any opinion based on weight issues is merely that an opinion.