PGA Tour: Beside the Seaside: Notes from the Ballwasher

First topic message reminder :

1).That's where we are this week, for the second week running after Mayakoba's beachside beauty - which is no way to describe winner Pat Perez. Quite the return from injury for Perez, long regarded as one of the Tour's premier "ball strikers" - if he was anywhere close as good between the ears as he is with his irons, he'd win five times a year, said Johnny Miller, or words to that effect anyway. Almost a shame he won as his combustible self-destruction act is quite something to behold.
And he's the third Mayakoba winner in a row to break a victory drought following Charley Hoffman and Graeme McDowell.

2).We travel this week to the Golden Isles of Georgia and the two courses that make up the venue for the RSM (formerly McGladrey) Classic. 18 holes each at the Plantation Course and Seaside Course, then 36 weekend holes at Seaside - a Harry Colt design originally, and a beautiful setting which will be graced by equally beautiful weather. These "Isles" are popular destinations for Tour players to live and practice, led by Davis Love and joined by Kuchar, Zach Johnson and several others.

3).A lot has happened in the past ten days. Obviously.
We all know the Ugly (not to say vulgar, racist, misogynistic, isolationist) which evolved into the Bad (very bad, tremendously bad), and was roundly welcomed by Pros from all US Tours and broadcast booths.
But there's been some good as well, in the world of Golf at least.

4).With impeccable timing, the Rolex Series for the European Tour was introduced, with the promise of at least one more tournament (France?) to be added to the seven already announced. Not sure we know all the details yet, and the ramifications for PGA Tour members (including South Africans) have yet to be established, but this can't be anything other than terrific news for the E.T.

5).Don't know whether this is good or what, but the reformatting of the Zurich Classic in New Orleans next April seems to beg more questions than it answers, not least any rationale surrounding owgr points (it seems none will be awarded) and how they're going to fill the field. And at a venue, New Orleans, that often experiences an untimely monsoon season to coincide with the tournament, how are they going to manage 160 golfers playing four-balls on the Friday?

6).Meanwhile, the LPGA seems interested in acquiring the Ladies European Tour and using it as feeder for its own Tour. Not sure how that will go down.

7).More positive news for European Seniors is that its new "Head" man, Dave McLaren, is laying out plans to increase the number of tournaments and raise prize money, hopefully within a couple of years. Don't expect Europe's Seniors to reach the kind of wealth that Bernhard Langer has achieved on the Champions Tour (almost $21M and counting), but anything to achieve stability would be welcomed. Meanwhile, the likes of Barry Lane and Van der Velde are competing here in Champions Tour Q-School (both leading in their respective venues after Round 1), hoping to join the likes of Langer, Montgomerie, Mechanic, Broadhurst, Woosie, Lyle and, when he feels fit to compete, Olazabal.

8).This time last year, Graeme McDowell travelled to the Seaside with a Mayakoba win under his belt and proceeded to finish third. Strange, then, that's he's not in this week's field, especially disappointing after three superb rounds last week. Luke Donald will be playing, trying to emerge from the wreckage of his career - a couple of runner-up finishes last year but nothing to suggest he'll be back at the top anytime soon. But these courses might suit him.

9).It's a sad commentary on the state of Australian Golf that last year's Aussie Open Champ, Matt Jones, is playing the RSM/McGladrey rather than defending his title. Admittedly he needs all the starts he can get after mysteriously taking last season just easy enough that he narrowly lost his card, but really . . . . . . . .

10).No PGA Tour action next week, even though Thanksgiving has been postponed in most US homes for four years. There IS a World Cup in Australia, plus Champions Tour and web.com Q-Schools in the next three weeks, but the Ballwasher is pretty clogged up with fallen leaves and season-ending debris, so only sporadic musings until January. Merry Christmas!

kwinigolfer wrote:Sweet list of venues for future Walker Cups:
2017: Los Angeles Country Club (also hosting the 2023 US Open)
2019: Hoylake
2021: Seminole
2023: tba - wouldn't it be a nice change if it was in Ireland, Portmarnock, say? Hasn't been there since 1991, Harrington & McGinley vs Duval & Mickelson (and Shotrock's mate Jay Sigel)
2025: Cypress Point

Awesome that golf fans will be able get a look at Seminole and Cypress Point hosting a competition. Everybody knows about the stunning visuals at the Point from the 1000's of images on the net (which still doesn't do it justice). But while avid fans have heard of Seminole, few have ever seen it. Not the visual stunner of even some of the other Palm Beach/Jupiter area courses... but IMHO the hands down, very best course in the region.

I really hope the R&A is equally imaginative with their 2023 venue. Turnberry wouldn't count. Not for The Open in 2020 or 2021 either.

Sr,
I don't doubt it, always enjoyed the interviews he'd give when he was a power on the Senior circuit.

Ballybunion in 2023!

There's some excellent 9-12 year olds coming though at our club - need to start working on securing a caddying gig for 2025!!

Do the Walker Cup committee in Europe stipulate a links course for their venues? Thinking of the courses they have used recently, Nairn, Royal Aberdeen, RCD, Lytham, Porthcawl, now Hoylake.
It's a shame more use isn't made of the beautiful heathland courses available. That would be a type of course Americans almost never play. Seems like a wasted opportunity not to use it and giving up an advantage.

GPB wrote:Ballybunion in 2023!

That would be something. Wonderful place.
Already thinking about watching in 2025 and, if I was a player of suitable age and talent, I'd definitely be aiming at that one!

super_realist wrote:It's a shame more use isn't made of the beautiful heathland courses available. That would be a type of course Americans almost never play. Seems like a wasted opportunity not to use it and giving up an advantage.

Like what courses for instance... ???

Well, you could go with:

Walton Heath, Sunningdale, Swinley Forest (perhaps too short!), Wentworth, St. George's Hill ... the list is long and deep.

Robo - Agree with you about Seminole. I've played it and what a treat. Another excellent course a bit further south is Indian Creek.

Shotrock wrote:Well, you could go with:

Walton Heath, Sunningdale, Swinley Forest (perhaps too short!), Wentworth, St. George's Hill ... the list is long and deep.

Robo - Agree with you about Seminole. I've played it and what a treat. Another excellent course a bit further south is Indian Creek.

Thanks SR... Somewhat familiar with Walton Heath and Wentworth (from TV of course).  What I don't understand is Super's comment on those types of courses being an advantage for the Euro side in a Walker Cup.  With American's growing up on and playing so many "parkland" courses, with similar design elements to those, seems like "heartland" courses would be more an equalizer in favor of the Americans as opposed to "true" links golf, on which U.S. amateurs would have a lot less experience.

JAS wrote:There's some excellent 9-12 year olds coming though at our club - need to start working on securing a caddying gig for 2025!!

That would be nice, but I don't think the players get to bring their own caddies in the Walker Cup. I remember the US team using local caddies that last time it was played in GB&I.

If I have the means an opportunity, I think I would go and watch at Seminole and Cypress Point.

Cypress Point was taken off the "Crosby" rotation back in the early 90's because they didn't have any black members and weren't going to be forced to add any black members. I can't imagine the USGA going to a course with a discrimination policy, so they must have opened up their doors.

Shotrock wrote:Robo - Agree with you about Seminole. I've played it and what a treat. Another excellent course a bit further south is Indian Creek.

Yeah, Seminole was a treat the one time I got on it. Wish I had another crack at it as I scored horribly on it that time around. It was too late in the round before I realized the course wasn't as hard as I was making it, and how I turned what shoulda been a lot of reasonably easy pars or even birdie chances into bogey's or worse.

Woodhall Spa, Woburn, Blairgowrie, Blackmoor, Archerfield, The Dukes, Worksop, would be some others.

I would imagine that most of the US Amateurs will be used to playing links in things like The British Amateur.

As the Walker Cup doesn't exactly require stadium stands erected some of these courses would be perfect.

robo,
I think super's comment was about "heathland" courses, such as Sr described examples of. Though would no longer consider Wentworth heathland following the Elsinations.
And quality heathland courses are not limited to the Home Counties, plenty of good 'uns throughout the country - I'm sure some favourites will start popping up!
EDIT: Thanks super!

GPB wrote:Cypress Point was taken off the "Crosby" rotation back in the early 90's because they didn't have any black members and weren't going to be forced to add any black members.  I can't imagine the USGA going to a course with a discrimination policy, so they must have opened up their doors.

Agree... USGA wouldn't make that mistake. Condi Rice is reportedly a member there.

Or how about getting Ganton back on the circuit. A mix of both links and heathland.

How could I forget Gleneagles?

kwinigolfer wrote:robo,
I think super's comment was about "heathland" courses, such as Sr described examples of. Though would no longer consider Wentworth heathland following the Elsinations.
And quality heathland courses are not limited to the Home Counties, plenty of good 'uns throughout the country - I'm sure some favourites will start popping up!

I got the "heartland" distinction in his post and thought I addressed that.  What I don't understand are what are the attributes of "heartland" courses that would necessarily distinguish them from any number of "parkland" courses in the U.S.   Maybe I'm missing something here, but I see nothing in any of the images of the examples SR posted that wouldn't be fairly common to MANY courses here in the U.S.  On the other hand, "true" links golf would be something most Americans would be much less familiar with.

Seems to me, the biggest difference over here is almost all golf has to be played "through the air" with little options of going to the ground like you can on most the links golf I've played.  Even the supposed "links like" courses here in the states may have a links "look", but in reality, usually they're as much point to point, "through the air" courses as any other around here.

Don't think the top ams or the pros do much except go through the air on links these days. I don't think it makes anywhere near the difference that it may once have done. Maybe on a really windy day perhaps?

Robo, the difference between heathland (not heartland) and parkland is the presence of thick impenetrable heather adjoining the  winding fairways and rough. Not only is it very hard to advance the ball, it can actually be very hard to find it in the first place. So it would be a very bad place to be for long and inevitably errant drivers as even if you find it, it's virtually impossible to get to the green.

It puts a massive premium on hitting very tight fairways to make sure you miss the pines and heather that make up much of the ground that isn't fairway.  Bunkers tend to be deep like links and turf well draining and links like in character.

As for links in the UK, most people play the ball through the air too, it seems to be only pensioners and hackers who putt from miles off the green.

super_realist wrote:I would imagine that most of the US Amateurs will be used to playing links in things like The British Amateur.

huh?

Few of the top American Amateurs go play the "British Amateur" [sic]. The Amateur Championship usually overlaps with both the US Open and very prestigious Amateur tournament, the Sunnehanna. There were 12 American in the Amateur Championship, and I didn't recognize any of the names. William Gordon was the only American Player ranked inside the Top 100 that played the Amateur Championship.

https://www.sunnehanna.org/

Going across the pond to play in the Amateur is a not a trivial expense.

GPB wrote:

super_realist wrote:I would imagine that most of the US Amateurs will be used to playing links in things like The British Amateur.

huh?

Few of the top American Amateurs go play the "British Amateur" [sic].  The Amateur Championship usually overlaps with both the US Open and very prestigious Amateur tournament, the Sunnehanna.  There were 12 American in the Amateur Championship, and I didn't recognize any of the names.  William Gordon was the only American Player ranked inside the Top 100 that played the Amateur Championship.

https://www.sunnehanna.org/

Going across the pond to play in the Amateur is a not a trivial expense.

Ok, fair enough, but lets not pretend that the guys at Walker Cup level are actually "true" amateurs, they are professional in all but name and are sponsored up to the hilt do travelling to the UK wouldn't trouble them.

I think I could bet pretty confidently that none of them are doing proper jobs and are playing golf full time. Even most of the Scottish players are hand fed in this manner and they are hopeless.

I don't know why I've got pluses and minuses next to posts (never seen them before) but just clicked a couple to see what they do and apparently I have registered a vote on whether I consider posts to be positive or negative? Please ignore these votes - I didn't know what I was doing!!!

golfermartin wrote:I don't know why I've got pluses and minuses next to posts (never seen them before) but just clicked a couple to see what they do and apparently I have registered a vote on whether I consider posts to be positive or negative? Please ignore these votes - I didn't know what I was doing!!!

ditto that. I clicked on one of NBS posts accidentally and I think I negatively voted. Did not mean to.

=========

Super: US Walker Cup has a rule that at least two of the players must be mid-Amateurs (age 25 or above) so presumably they have real jobs. I actually think that should be the rule for the entire team on both sides, but that is another debate. College kids have the Palmer Cup.

I agree that college-age golfers are de-facto professionals as they typically don't have a real job. But the best American Amateurs are not playing the Amateur Championship

Forget the Amateur Championship for a minute, I'm simply saying that the term "amateur" doesn't really mean what it used to anymore.
Anyone who is of the ability to represent their country, will be very unlikely be working for a living.

super_realist wrote:Forget the Amateur Championship for a minute, I'm simply saying that the term "amateur" doesn't really mean what it used to anymore.
Anyone who is of the ability to represent their country, will be very unlikely  be working for a living.

psst, that is why I said college age golfers de-facto professional.

But IME....Mid Amateurs that represent their countries are pretty close to true traditional amateurs.

And for the most part, the US Walker Cuppers are not going to have much experience with GB&I Links golf.

Indeed, but I doubt the "mid-amateurs" are exactly working 9-5 either.

super_realist wrote:Robo, the difference between heathland (not heartland) and parkland is the presence of thick impenetrable heather adjoining the  winding fairways and rough. Not only is it very hard to advance the ball, it can actually be very hard to find it in the first place. So it would be a very bad place to be for long and inevitably errant drivers as even if you find it, it's virtually impossible to get to the green.

Oops... don't know why I was reading it HEART instead of HEATH. My bad.

OK... so it's the NATURE of the rough that's the primary difference? Still don't know why that would be such a disadvantage to American's though.. if it's almost impossible to reach the green out of the heather, it seems like that wouldn't favor any side over the other. Perhaps there's a misconception that golf over here at top amateur levels is all about power and any premium of keeping it in the FW's be damned. Yes it's a LOT about length these days, maybe moreso over here than on your side (but I dunno about that judging from the recent crop of big hitting young players in Europe)... but the rota of top amateur venues over here are just not a bunch of "hit it anywhere" cupcakes. Maybe it's just that they're just "protected" differently with either "regular" rough, bunkering, native areas, trees, OB and water. I can't imagine hitting it out of heather is any more penalizing than chipping out from behind a live oak or dropping out of a hazard or re-teeing on an OB ball.

robopz wrote:

super_realist wrote:Robo, the difference between heathland (not heartland) and parkland is the presence of thick impenetrable heather adjoining the  winding fairways and rough. Not only is it very hard to advance the ball, it can actually be very hard to find it in the first place. So it would be a very bad place to be for long and inevitably errant drivers as even if you find it, it's virtually impossible to get to the green.

Oops... don't know why I was reading it HEART instead of HEATH.  My bad.

OK... so it's the NATURE of the rough that's the primary difference?  Still don't know why that would be such a disadvantage to American's though.. if it's almost impossible to reach the green out of the heather, it seems like that wouldn't favor any side over the other.  Perhaps there's a misconception that golf over here at top amateur levels is all about power and any premium of keeping it in the FW's be damned. Yes it's a LOT about length these days, maybe moreso over here than on your side (but I dunno about that judging from the recent crop of big hitting young players in Europe)... but the rota of top amateur venues over here are just not a bunch of "hit it anywhere" cupcakes.  Maybe it's just that they're just "protected" differently with either "regular" rough, bunkering, native areas, trees, OB and water.  I can't imagine hitting it out of heather is any more penalizing than chipping out from behind a live oak or dropping out of a hazard or re-teeing on an OB ball.

Only that Brits will be more used to that type of course. Unless you've a course which is covered in "live oak" then I'm not sure how it compares to heathland where the heather is like a carpet that surrounds a very high % of the course.

Surely every kind of golf is "different" when first experienced? Different grasses, green speeds/characteristics, bunkering, ways in which hazards are penal.
We have lots of good European putters but a few years ago I did an analysis on here of putts, taken and per gir, at early season tournaments on Bermuda and the success of Florida residents compared to Europe residents was stark.
Heather and gorse is certainly very different, more unforgiving, and has to be planned for differently, than heavy rough. And these courses can still have trees, just look at some unElsed Wentworth fairways!

Nothing that a top golfer wouldn't acclimate to relatively quickly, but still le difference.

Heather is unique to play out of.

Experience definitely helps -- you can easily get a flyer OR a ball that travels about 15 yards.

GBI players who have played extensively and competed on Heathland courses should be at an advantage.

Heathland is classic golf to me. I'd much rather play a good heathland course than a good links course, perhaps because much of my golf is played on such links, it's good to get away and play something different.

Hopelessly looking for wayward golfballs is not my idea of a fun day on the golf course.

No, that would not be me. I was always a relatively straight driver.

Golf is not played in vacuum. You typically play with others and more importantly, in this scenario, behind others.

A day behind a bunch of high handicap golfers would be miserable on a course where there is high rough with a high potential for lost balls.

Give me a course with light rough, any day.

that's the point though GPB, once you start playing courses like that, you stop pulling out driver at every opportunity and use clubs which put you in safe areas, so you're not stuck behind people looking for balls all the time.

Plotting around a golf course is much more satisfying than blasting a driver into a wide open airfield and having a simple shot into the green.

I don't understand how me using a 4 iron off the tee prevents the players in front of me from hitting drivers.

It only takes one car going 40 mph in a 60 mph zone to slow down traffic.

Very true GPB, but people at clubs (in the UK are usually members) learn how to play a course.

Sadly though, golf isn't quick on any course these days, so who cares if someone is using a 4i or a driver really? You aren't going to get round any quicker, and if someone is holding you up, play through.

golfermartin wrote:I don't know why I've got pluses and minuses next to posts (never seen them before) but just clicked a couple to see what they do and apparently I have registered a vote on whether I consider posts to be positive or negative? Please ignore these votes - I didn't know what I was doing!!!

It looks like the forumotion people who run the infrastructure of this site have tried (and failed) to go down the facebook route of introducing the concept of "liking" posts - sadly they have failed big time

Many times I've not wanted to actually reply to a post but wanted to give it a facebook "thumbs up" - seems that's where they are going but it has failed miserably - hard to see the actual consensus on a post - just that you've "voted" for it

super_realist wrote:Very true GPB, but people at clubs (in the UK are usually members) learn how to play a course.

Sadly though, golf isn't quick on any course these days, so who cares if someone is using a 4i or a driver really? You aren't going to get round any quicker, and if someone is holding you up, play through.

I have ZERO problem with your post... but I just gave it a negative vote to see how that +/- thingy works... my bad... I can't undo it now... oops.

Early commitments to the Farmers at Torrey Pines suggest a strong field, but no sign yet of T.Woods. Does that further indicate he'll be in the Middle East for a mega pay-day?

After the stern words from Giles Morgan about Tiger in 2013, I doubt if HSBC/Abu Dhabi will be forking any money to Tiger Woods.

Rickie is the Abu Dhabi defending Champ. And he is sponsored by Farmers.

Rickie is committed to the Farmers. J's Day and Rose also.

Where are you seeing a commitment list for the Farmers?

(Still frustrated with the PGATour website.)

GPB,

http://www.farmersinsuranceopen.com/tournament-info/plan-your-day/player-field/?platform=hootsuite

No Phil either, though plenty of time for these guys to sign up.

kwinigolfer wrote:GPB,

http://www.farmersinsuranceopen.com/tournament-info/plan-your-day/player-field/?platform=hootsuite

No Phil either, though plenty of time for these guys to sign up.

Thanks, bit I don't see Rickie on that page.

But I know he is a Farmer's spokesman (Romantic Rodent) commercial

Why can't Fowler play both Abu Dhabi and the Farmer's the next week?

robopz wrote:Why can't Fowler play both Abu Dhabi and the Farmer's the next week?

Duh, Because I thought they were played the same week like an idiot.

GPB wrote:

robopz wrote:Why can't Fowler play both Abu Dhabi and the Farmer's the next week?

Duh, Because I thought they were played the same week like an idiot.

Like we don't all make mistakes?

But I tend to agree with you on TW and Abu Dhabi, even though Rosy seemed less convinced last week on MD.  The other thing going against Abu Dhabi is apparently they dropped $3+ mega-large on DJ already.  All that makes Dubai more likely IMO.  I kind of doubt TW skips Farmers for Qatar... But ya never know.

I have given up on Morning Drive. I used to DVR it, but no longer. Too much Instruction, too much Travel. The only thing that I try to catch is the Shackleford segments on Monday.

I never liked Kuselias but I did like the format better back then.

I get your point on MD... It's better in the meat of the season IMO... But really degrades after the RC or PC...

Shacklford and Rosaforte are the best contributors they have... They're just not there enough to carry the show.

38 Qualifiers  for Tournament of Champions.  Olympic Medal does not qualify Justin Rose

Code:

[size=11]

Jason Day     Vaughn Taylor Bubba Watson   Henrik Stenson
Pat Perez      Danny Willett Brian Stuard   Brendan Steele
Adam Scott     Branden Grace Russell Knox   B Snedeker    
Tony Finau     Sergio Garcia Jimmy Walker   Charly Hoffman
Jim Herman     Greg Chalmers Patrick Reed   Jhonatan Vegas
James Hahn     Justin Thomas Rory McIlroy   H Matsuyama  
Ryan Moore     William McGirt Cody Gribble   Billy Hurley  
Si Woo Kim     Daniel Berger Rod Pampling   Mckenzy Hughes
Fabian Gomez   Dustin Johnson Jordan Spieth C Schwartzel  
Jason Dufner   Aaron Baddeley
 
 

[/size]

Rory, Henrik, Willett, Sergio, Charl and Adam?

Davie wrote:

golfermartin wrote:I don't know why I've got pluses and minuses next to posts (never seen them before) but just clicked a couple to see what they do and apparently I have registered a vote on whether I consider posts to be positive or negative? Please ignore these votes - I didn't know what I was doing!!!

It looks like the forumotion people who run the infrastructure of this site have tried (and failed) to go down the facebook route of introducing the concept of "liking" posts - sadly they have failed big time

Many times I've not wanted to actually reply to a post but wanted to give it a facebook "thumbs up" - seems that's where they are going but it has failed miserably - hard to see the actual consensus on a post - just that you've "voted" for it

Could it be (*shock* *horror*)....that this was simply a trial. I'd hardly call it "failed miserably", but then you have an axe to grind...

An axe to grind? Would you care to elaborate? I said clearly above that I'd actually welcome some sort of "like" button a la Facebook but this didn't seem to work

Looks like a moot point anyway, the pluses and minuses seem to have disappeared anyway