Eng in India

First topic message reminder :

LivinginItaly wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Does anyone really see Stokes as a genuine top 5 batsman?

(That comment will no doubt lead to a splendidly crafted century)

Top 5 no. Number 6 yes.

He will be back at six when they leave India and revert to a normal team balance ...ie just five bowlers. But it is probably a necessary evil on this tour.
In this case , five and six turned out to be virtually identical anyway

VTR, people said Rashid isn't picking enough wickets. When he started picking wickets they said he's not taking enough top order wickets. When he started troubling the likes of Rahane and Vijay people said he is not taking enough first innings wickets. Then he's not taking enough wickets on day 1 or 2 regardless of whether the opposition even had a bat!
When Giles was doing a job, the likes of Pietersen, Trescothick and Vaughan were making runs There was Fredye Flintoff and James Anderson doing a job with the ball even in subcontinent conditions. And in this game, if what England needed was control, Cook could have used his seamers more. No point blaming Rashid, and to a lesser extend Ali for all of England's troubles even with the ball is missing more than a point or 2 really.......

A fair rebuttal msp. I suppose that for me what we have is two second Spinners, both decent enough but not good enough to lead the line. Rashid has improved but doesn't threaten consistently. Am not sure when England next tour India, but I expect at least four years so England need to use that time to find some better options or have no chance of competing.

Both Rashid and Moeen are pretty prone to go missing when the initiative is there for the taking, we need someone with that confidence that the likes of Swann had who actually up their game at such moments

India's best case scenario is bat one more session ( no impossible and quite likely)

add another 80 to 100 runs.....lead by 130-150 runs

bowl out Eng for 140 runs........and win by an inning..that's india's best case 

In any case i do not see Eng crossing 200 runs on this pitch and in any case i think Ind will have a lead of about 75 minimum in first inning

means India's worst case is chase 125 in the 4th inning


Eng's best case-->bowl Ind out for another 25 tomm and bowl India out for less than 125 on 5th day 

India have started day four perfectly ...rattling up the score at 5 per over at the expense of Rashid (perhaps the wrong choice to start the day ) and Ball.
Moeen , Root now ... but it all has an air of rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic...

Kohli and Jayant batting superbly. Taking this lead beyond anything England can feel confident of reeling in , I fear. Pitch obviously still -surprisingly- good for batting. But the pressure on England when they bat again will be a big factor.
As will Ashwin and Jadeja

from will India match Eng's first inning total yesterday
the situation has changed today to

will India declare

Cook's mentally taken the easier option......waiting for the declaration

This has been a wonderful partnership .

Not sure England have actively chosen to "wait for a declaration" : they just haven't been able to do much about it ! Only Anderson has even hinted at establishing any sort of control - and nothing resembling a chance has been created.

Kohli gets a double hundred

200 run partnership

jayant Yadav gets highest score by an Indian at No. 9  ..now 91* 

128 runs in the session at 4.41 RPO 

only session of this test match when no wicket fell 

Could hardly have gone better for India !

Think yesterday has drained most of the remaining life from the England players - and that session will have surely finished them off. The late order batting of India in this series has arguably been the difference between the teams : for all the fine bowling of Ashwin and Jadeja , it has been these late partnerships that have really turned the screws on England . (Some crucial dropped chances haven't helped either : had Root hung on last night when Jayant was eight we might be looking at a very different game now.)
For all England's imperfections in these conditions , I think you have to take your hat off to India - they have just played really good cricket

Well deserved hundred for Jayant

Didn't get any wickets ; but this innings might just about have assured his team of a win.

He is a real find for India.

100 for yadav...first ever by an Indian No. 9

600 for India
Ind lead by 200

Kohli 225*
highest score by an Indian captain
highest score by and Indian vs Eng

End of one of the Great Innings from Kohli

Really was magnificent.

India batting on ...might as well let 10 and 11 have some fun I guess

last pair rubbing salt in

Lead of 231. Probably at the high end of India's expectations this morning

So England's task is pretty simple now : bat for four sessions.

Simple , that is - meaning uncomplicated. Not so much easy ...

What a load of rubbish, any chance they can just get on the plane home rather than get marmalised in the second innings

VTR wrote:What a load of rubbish, any chance they can just get on the plane home rather than get marmalised in the second innings

Think we're reaching the point of an English winter tour where they all just want to be at home. Been a relentless two and a half months.

Punctured, Deflated, Demoralized are the words that come to mind reading Eng's mental condition now.....
It's not easy but they must compete...come out positive and with resolve....to avoid innings defeat.....and who knows one super innings may help eek out a draw.

Jennigs falls first ball

Agreed Olly, 150ao here and there'll be no fight in the final test

VTR wrote:Agreed Olly,  150ao here and there'll be no fight in the final test

Your gloomy prognosis may well be correct . Would be very easy for them to fold up completely from here.

I hope they don't though. While any chance of getting a result from the series is long gone , a display of resistance in the remaining days will at least give the traveling fans something to cheer ; and be good for their own morale going forward.

Losing Jennings immediately to a marginal lbw is the sort of thing that happens when you've just had two days in the field. At least the young man can console himself with the fact that his average still hasn't dipped below fifty

I wouldn't blame them for folding, it's a hopeless situation and someone is taking the pish out of them with these schedules. The amount they are expected to play has reached obscene levels and needs looking at

Ravindra Jadeja reachs the hundred wickets mark in test cricket, and not a bad hundredth wicket, its the England skipper, who has fallen to Jadeja not for the first time in the series.......

And Jadeja gets another, Moeen this time.
England 49-3.

the easiest was to win is to break the will to fight...which is what india did on D3 of T3 and now T4

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:We may actually kill Moeen by the end of this match - he's gonna bowl 50/60 overs then have to bat at 10/2 after 4 overs

43 actually on the board in the 12th when Moeen walked to the crease. Mind you, India batted a bit longer than expected!

VTR wrote:I wouldn't blame them for folding, it's a hopeless situation and someone is taking the pish out of them with these schedules. The amount they are expected to play has reached obscene levels and needs looking at

So you're saying the reason England are so bad is because they're tired?

You suppose Australia are using the same excuse (having played just 4 fewer matches)?



Absolutely pathetic display by England (yet again). Had India 7 wickets down with a lead of 30-odd but let Yadav score a century and the skipper get a double ton. Just unbelievable!

And as for the response...equally pathetic. Cook continues his miserable run of form (sooner he vacates the captaincy the better) and Moeen continues to show he isn't a top order player.

Until England stop loading the team with (so called) all rounders, strengthen the top order with specialist batsmen and develop some Swann-class spinners, we are going to continue to struggle overseas.

I'm not even going to bother following the final match, as this is just getting embarrassing.

Not blaming the players entirely. The management and coaching staff deserve an equal share of the stick, for picking a team wholly unsuited to touring the sub continent.

Defeat beckons inside four days at this rate as England teeter on 49 for 3. Credit to Root for taking the right approach.

England are going to be well beaten in this series but lets now overlook the fact that India are the No 1 test team in the world at present and are playing in conditions they are comfortable in. England haven't been consistent enough in all areas (batting, bowling and fielding) and haven't been helped by erroneous team selections with either not enough seamers or too many seamers and obvious wrong tour selections. You can't make those sorts of errors then under-perform and expect to be competitive.

I think it's a factor, not the whole reason. 7 back to back tests away from home with no practice matches in between any of them. Can anyone honestly defend that as a fair schedule?

This cuts both ways as well btw, India were absolutely trounced over here last two times facing similar unfair schedules

Although they are playing a lot of Tests these days , I wouldn't say that in itself is killing them. But I do think this particular tour (Bangladesh followed immediately by India) was a touch unreasonable.

It isn't the whole story , of course. First there is the fact that India are just better generally in these conditions ( hardly surprising ; it's called home advantage) but it does mean that England have to really play close to their best to remain competitive...when a couple of things go wrong for them (eg crucial dropped catches) and they find themselves seriously behind in the game - that is when the tiredness (mental probably more than physical) tends to kick in.
It isn't an excuse : dealing with problems is part of Test Cricket ; but it is one of the reasons why they are failing to stay with the home team over the third and fourth day of these matches...
I am disappointed with the results here ; but deferring any wrist slashing. The next year or two doesn't feature Asian tours so the lessons of this tour have time to be digested and addressed. While supporters are understandably unhappy with the results here , it is important the players don't allow it to take their self belief. . . They have work to do at home and in Australia over the next twelve months .

VTR wrote:I think it's a factor, not the whole reason. 7 back to back tests away from home with no practice matches in between any of them. Can anyone honestly defend that as a fair schedule?

This cuts both ways as well btw, India were absolutely trounced over here last two times facing similar unfair schedules

TBH I've never understood why there is such disparity in the amount of games played by the different test nations. There are only 11 countries - surely it shouldn't be that hard to set up a playing schedule that means they play roughly the same number of matches over a given period of time?

Also think a test series should mean 3-5 matches - none of this 2 match nonsense (e.g. Bangladesh).

This is one of the all time worst England fails.

dyrewolfe wrote:

VTR wrote:I think it's a factor, not the whole reason. 7 back to back tests away from home with no practice matches in between any of them. Can anyone honestly defend that as a fair schedule?

This cuts both ways as well btw, India were absolutely trounced over here last two times facing similar unfair schedules

TBH I've never understood why there is such disparity in the amount of games played by the different test nations. There are only 11 countries - surely it shouldn't be that hard to set up a playing schedule that means they play roughly the same number of matches over a given period of time?

Also think a test series should mean 3-5 matches - none of this 2 match nonsense (e.g. Bangladesh).

You'd think dyre - but cricket isn't run by people with common sense!!

Money, money and money. England tend to play longer series and do end up playing more tests than other countries. I wouldn't back us to win a 4 test series vs India, but might make for a better contest

VTR wrote:Agreed Olly,  150ao here and there'll be no fight in the final test

At the stage now where they've been away from home for two and a half months, with the same people day in day out - it's tough like, imagine having to do that with work

ashwin turning the ball a mile and Bairstow all at sea

matter of time before he gets him

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

VTR wrote:Agreed Olly,  150ao here and there'll be no fight in the final test

At the stage now where they've been away from home for two and a half months, with the same people day in day out - it's tough like, imagine having to do that with work

Plenty of people have to do that - oil rig workers and the like. My dad spent a lot of his working life overseas and only got back to see us a few weeks a year.

VTR wrote:Money, money and money. England tend to play longer series and do end up playing more tests than other countries. I wouldn't back us to win a 4 test series vs India, but might make for a better contest

Well somebody needs to tell the ECB they are risking killing the goose that lays their golden eggs.

I don't think the length of the tour has anything to do with it. England have coped well enough with just as long tours in the past in recent years and been successful in India and Australia.

I'm with Olly, it's that plus the media scrutiny etc, it's not just a normal job. Yes, it's been poor but any success would be in spite of the ridiculous schedule. I think England end the series having played 18 tests in 12 months, that must be close to if not some kind of record

Craig, last win in India was four tests. Win in the ashes had some decent warm up games and neither were back to back with another test series

dyrewolfe wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

VTR wrote:Agreed Olly,  150ao here and there'll be no fight in the final test

At the stage now where they've been away from home for two and a half months, with the same people day in day out - it's tough like, imagine having to do that with work

Plenty of people have to do that - oil rig workers and the like. My dad spent a lot of his working life overseas and only got back to see us a few weeks a year.

Not to mention military service ...with the added attraction of having people shooting at you from time to time

But it does lead to a bit of stress , it's true. So I am not without sympathy for the players. And pleased to see Root , for one , battling it out now.
I think he's been guilty of a couple of careless dismissals in this series. But he is showing , again , that he really is England's best player right now.
Whether we want him to be burdened with the captaincy just yet is another matter...

Well at least Root looks as though he's decided to enjoy himself while he can. Question is: can anyone stay with him?

VTR wrote:I'm with Olly, it's that plus the media scrutiny etc, it's not just a normal job. Yes, it's been poor but any success would be in spite of the ridiculous schedule. I think England end the series having played 18 tests in 12 months, that must be close to if not some kind of record

Craig, last win in India was four tests. Win in the ashes had some decent warm up games and neither were back to back with another test series

No sorry I still don't agree. India have had an equal (if not more) test cricket this year and it isn't hindering them in anyway. Fatigue isn't the issue here - the issue is sloppy dismissals, inconsistent displays and poor team selection.

dyrewolfe wrote:Well at least Root looks as though he's decided to enjoy himself while he can. Question is: can anyone stay with him?

It is certainly the way to go. Go down playing your shots as trying to block for a day ain't going to work on this pitch against these spinners. Score fast enough and the deficit gets erased quicker and the field will slowly become less attack-minded. Not the case yet obviously but it will happen if this pair put on another fifty.

VTR wrote:I'm with Olly, it's that plus the media scrutiny etc, it's not just a normal job. Yes, it's been poor but any success would be in spite of the ridiculous schedule. I think England end the series having played 18 tests in 12 months, that must be close to if not some kind of record

Craig, last win in India was four tests. Win in the ashes had some decent warm up games and neither were back to back with another test series

Just done a few quick calculations and even playing 5 test series a year (say a total of 25 matches) only works out at 125 days' play (assuming they all go the distance). Add another 50 days for ODI and T20 series and thats still only 175 days a year.

That still leaves 190 days for rest / holidays, travel etc.

And thats not allowing for the fact the playing squad gets shuffled for ODIs and T20 matches.

If the schedule were managed sensibly (i.e. no back to back series) I'm not sure why the players would be suffering that much fatigue...

Earlier during the coverage they were saying they may look to reducing Test matches to four days. I sincerely hope not. Test cricket is the finest form of the sport and far more intriguing than the wham-bam thank you ma'am style of limited overs cricket. But something tells me the powers that be are only interested in what format makes them the most money even if it is to the detriment of test match cricket.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Earlier during the coverage they were saying they may look to reducing Test matches to four days. I sincerely hope not. Test cricket is the finest form of the sport and far more intriguing than the wham-bam thank you ma'am style of limited overs cricket. But something tells me the powers that be are only interested in what format makes them the most money even if it is to the detriment of test match cricket.

Do that and you may as well limit each innings to 90 overs to make sure both sides get to bat twice...