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WI in India

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Post by KP_fan Thu 31 Oct 2013, 10:01 am

The Indian team was declared...Jadeja rested owing to shoulder strain?
why does he continue to bowl in the masala ODIs?
Rohit has been sneaked into the squad
 
leaving out Zaheer is a mistake.......unless they do not want to risk with Zaheer as one of the bolwers in a 4 man attack given that Jadeja is out.
 
There was no comeback for Zaheer Khan despite his five wickets in Mumbai's Ranji Trophy opener, and allrounder Ravindra Jadeja was rested because of a shoulder strain, but Ishant Sharma retained his place despite his struggle for form in recent limited-overs games. India's squad also has a spinner of each variety - an offspinner in R Ashwin, a left-armer in Pragyan Ojha and Mishra.


India's top order is fairly settled with Shikhar Dhawan and M Vijay opening, followed by Cheteshwar Pujara, Sachin Tendulkar, who will be playing his final series, and Virat Kohli. Ajinkya Rahane was the incumbent at No. 6 in the fourth Test against Australia in Delhi, but Rohit Sharma could be pushing for a Test debut after consistent limited-overs performances.


Squad: MS Dhoni (capt), Shikhar Dhawan, M Vijay, Cheteshwar Pujara, Sachin Tendulkar, Virat Kohli, R Ashwin, Bhuvneshwar Kumar, Pragyan Ojha, Amit Mishra, Ajinkya Rahane, Umesh Yadav, Shami Ahmed, Rohit Sharma, Ishant Sharma.


from BCCI's website
Ravindra Jadeja has a shoulder strain. The Physiotherapist of the Indian team has advised two weeks’ rest for him, after the end of the ODI series against Australia, as a precautionary measure


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Post by KP_fan Thu 31 Oct 2013, 10:05 am

My playing 11 will be following:

1) Vijay
2) Dhawan
3) Pujara
4) Tendulkar
5) Kohli
6) Rahane
7) Dhoni
8) Mishra
9) Ashwin
10) Yadav
11) Shami Ahmed
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Post by KP_fan Thu 31 Oct 2013, 10:09 am

while WI is playing a warm-up game vs. UP and I belive it is better discussing here......msp you may want to move your posts here.

UP's Imtiaz Ahmed continues to be amongst wickets with new ball...spinners ineffective as WI scores nearly at 4RPO losing 4 wickets...every one of their batsman has got starts and 4 of them have made decent totals
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Post by KP_fan Thu 31 Oct 2013, 2:10 pm

WI have built themsleves to 333-4........anotehr flat pitch.

without a 5th bowler, I am wondering how India will be able to win a test even in home conditions vs. WI
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Post by ShankyCricket Fri 01 Nov 2013, 9:43 am

Mishra ahead of Ojha in Tests? And no Bhuvi?

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Post by ShankyCricket Fri 01 Nov 2013, 10:28 am

On the other thread, KPFan said Rohit should not go ahead of Rahane based on ODI performances as Rahane is the next in line in Tests and there's a principle of consistent selection. Yet you'd pick Mishra ahead of Ojha based on ODIs vs Zimbabwe? Rolling Eyes 
Ojha was far and away our best bowler against England and has had a great start to the season in Duleep and Ranji. Mishra is nowhere near Test standard.

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Post by KP_fan Fri 01 Nov 2013, 12:58 pm

ShankyCricket wrote:On the other thread, KPFan said Rohit should not go ahead of Rahane based on ODI performances as Rahane is the next in line in Tests and there's a principle of consistent selection. Yet you'd pick Mishra ahead of Ojha based on ODIs vs Zimbabwe? Rolling Eyes 
Ojha was far and away our best bowler against England and has had a great start to the season in Duleep and Ranji. Mishra is nowhere near Test standard.
 
Ojha had his chances and lost his spot to Jadeja
 
Given that India's No.1 SLA is Jadeja.....the 3rd spinner shold be a leggie for variety sake...therefore Mishra comes in.
 
If the pitces are flat...then the extra pace of Shami gets him ahead of B. Kumar.
 
if the pitch / environment is seaming then B. Kumar has a prefernce.
 
selecting bowlers is diffrent from selecting batsmen in tests.
The 6 best batsmen are your 6 best batsmen.
 
the 4 or 5 bowlers are rotated more depending on pitch conditions from a pool of about 7 bowlers.
 
But yes the pool of 7 bowlers has to be fixed and with consistency.....and I am not dropping B. Kumar out of the pool of 7


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Post by Gerry SA Fri 01 Nov 2013, 12:59 pm

I think India should axe Vijay. He's pretty average. Poor footwork and hopeless against fast bowling. With tours to SA, NZ and England in the next 10 months, he'll be a liability.

Pick Rohit to open with Dhawan. If it works in ODIs, it should work in Test matches.

Rahane gets a couple of matches in Jadeja's absence. Personally still think Sehwag should've been selected at 6, as Rahane is overrated.

Bowling attack seems problem.

Yadav is a lock in IMO. India will need his pace overseas.

Ashwin and Ojha obviously the two best spinners.

Ishant isn't a chance.

So it'd between Shami(debutant) and Kumar. I can't see India picking Yadav off an injury with a debutant. But Kumar isn't half that bowler in Indian conditions

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Post by KP_fan Fri 01 Nov 2013, 1:27 pm

Gerry SA wrote:     I think India should axe Vijay. He's pretty average. Poor footwork and hopeless against fast bowling. With tours to SA, NZ and England in the next 10 months, he'll be a liability.

Pick Rohit to open with Dhawan. If it works in ODIs, it should work in Test matches.

Rahane gets a couple of matches in Jadeja's absence. Personally still think Sehwag should've been selected at 6, as Rahane is overrated.

Bowling attack seems problem.

Yadav is a lock in IMO. India will need his pace overseas.

Ashwin and Ojha obviously the two best spinners.

Ishant isn't a chance.

So it'd between Shami(debutant) and Kumar. I can't see India picking Yadav off an injury with a debutant. But Kumar isn't half that bowler in Indian conditions        
 
 
that is Bold is a good suggestion.
 
when Ganguly was backing Sehwag and for the lack of another slot...he got Sehwag in as an opener...inspite of Sehwag being a middle order batsman at FC level....and the rest as they say is history.
 
Rahane had a chance to open...but for some convoluted logic eitehr he declined or atleast did not insist that he wanted to open.......
and hence came Vijay
 
Now Vijay has performed in his latest test series...so by the theory of consistency...he cannot just be dumped.
He has to fail before he can be dumped...and then Rohit should volunteer to Dhoni and selectors that he is willing to open.
 
re the hierarchy of bowlers
Yadav is first
Zaheer is second if India is playing 5 bowlers ( jadeja being the 5th)
then comes B. Kumar if the pitch/ atmosphere has any support for seamers....he is India's Philander
then comes Shami...but he jumps ahead of Kumar if the pitches are flat because of his 88mph pace and reversing skills
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Post by ShankyCricket Fri 01 Nov 2013, 6:51 pm

KP_fan wrote:
ShankyCricket wrote:On the other thread, KPFan said Rohit should not go ahead of Rahane based on ODI performances as Rahane is the next in line in Tests and there's a principle of consistent selection. Yet you'd pick Mishra ahead of Ojha based on ODIs vs Zimbabwe? Rolling Eyes 
Ojha was far and away our best bowler against England and has had a great start to the season in Duleep and Ranji. Mishra is nowhere near Test standard.
 
Ojha had his chances and lost his spot to Jadeja
 
Given that India's No.1 SLA is Jadeja.....the 3rd spinner shold be a leggie for variety sake...therefore Mishra comes in.
 
If the pitces are flat...then the extra pace of Shami gets him ahead of B. Kumar.
 
if the pitch / environment is seaming then B. Kumar has a prefernce.
 
selecting bowlers is diffrent from selecting batsmen in tests.
The 6 best batsmen are your 6 best batsmen.
 
the 4 or 5 bowlers are rotated more depending on pitch conditions from a pool of about 7 bowlers.
 
But yes the pool of 7 bowlers has to be fixed and with consistency.....and I am not dropping B. Kumar out of the pool of 7
He was easily our best bowler against England so thats pretty ridiculous. Also Jadeja is not playing this series. Mishra has had his chances and was very average. Nonsensical to pick a leggie for the sake of it. B Kumar is our best seamer. The choice is between Shami and Yadav IMO.

And I don't see why batsmen shouldn't be picked acc to conditions either. Agree with Gerry on Vijay, he is awful against decent pace and would be found wanting in SA although Sehwag at 6 is a ludicrous suggestion. He couldn't buy a run in SA even in his prime and to pick him in his current form, would be sacrilege.

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Post by KP_fan Fri 01 Nov 2013, 7:10 pm

He was easily our best bowler against England so thats pretty ridiculous
Life did not stop with the England series...then came the Aussies...and Jadeja became India's no. 1 spinner and first choice SLA
and Ashwin India's No.2 spinner.

and meanwhile Mishra rose to No.3 spot....throuhg consistent show in FC and all international opportunities.

And I don't see why batsmen shouldn't be picked acc to conditions either
because batsmen are diffrent from bowlers....if you pick your top 6 batsmen they will deliver irrespective of conditions.

Agree with Gerry on Vijay, he is awful against decent pace and would be found wanting in SA
he scored nearly 500 runs at an average of 60+ in his last 4 tests......by the principles of consistency and fairness he cannot be even touched.

If he was not deemed not good enough...then the time to no pick him was against Aus...and then I was in favour of Rahane or Gambhir
Now althouhg I am no fan of him........he can't just be dumped after that Bumper series.
His place will not even be discussed or debated by the selectors
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Post by ShankyCricket Fri 01 Nov 2013, 7:25 pm

KP_fan wrote:
He was easily our best bowler against England so thats pretty ridiculous
Life did not stop with the England series...then came the Aussies...and Jadeja became India's no. 1 spinner and first choice SLA
and Ashwin India's No.2 spinner.

and meanwhile Mishra rose to No.3 spot....throuhg consistent show in FC and all international opportunities.

And I don't see why batsmen shouldn't be picked acc to conditions either
because batsmen are diffrent from bowlers....if you pick your top 6 batsmen they will deliver irrespective of conditions.

Agree with Gerry on Vijay, he is awful against decent pace and would be found wanting in SA
he scored nearly 500 runs at an average of 60+ in his last 4 tests......by the principles of consistency and fairness he cannot be even touched.

If he was not deemed not good enough...then the time to no pick him was against Aus...and then I was in favour of Rahane or Gambhir
Now althouhg I am no fan of him........he can't just be dumped after that Bumper series.
His place will not even be discussed or debated by the selectors
I would take the performances in the England Test series a lot more seriously than an ODI series vs Zimbabwe.

Not Ojha's fault that he wasn't picked vs Australia to start with. He didn't do badly in the last 2 games yet you want Mishra ahead of him because of ODIs against Zimbabwe? Ludicrous.

I'd also have Ojha ahead of Ashwin. Performances against England should count for a lot more than against the hopeless Aus side. And Ashwin looked clueless against a decent England side.

I can see why Vijay won't be dropped but I would. I don't rate him at all.

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Post by KP_fan Fri 01 Nov 2013, 8:15 pm

I can see why Vijay won't be dropped but I would. I don't rate him at all.
good that you see we cannot all the time talk about wish-lists and genrealy need to focus on practical realities.

I'd also have Ojha ahead of Ashwin.
How do you think then he lost Not only his country's no-2 spinner slot but also  the no-3 slot and Bhajji got ahead of him in tests?

BECAUSE his perforamcne against Eng was deemed inadequate....inspite of the wickets he took.

when compared head-2-head with Monty..he looked pale...he was expected to do on tailor made pitches..... against a side known to be weak against spin..... what Monty did against India...i.e run throuhg Eng like a hot knife throuhg butter.

so India immediately started looking beyond him.....for some potent who could run throuhg sides on krumbling spinning pitches
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Post by msp83 Sat 02 Nov 2013, 6:59 am

Can anyone of the mods merge the 2 threads on this topic please?

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Post by KP_fan Sat 02 Nov 2013, 4:06 pm

little know Parvinder singh cracks a solid hundred against WI and Chawla takes 4-for in the 2nd inning.

where are the spinning and seam assiting pitches
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Post by msp83 Sat 02 Nov 2013, 6:44 pm

Hopefully Sachin Tendulkar will be able to play his final test series on cricket pitches and not national highways. The BCCI jokers do not care much, and the joker curating the Eden Gardens pitch has become a specialist of the pan cake strips.
The only hope is the Indian captain, he has always been asking for some quality spinning tracks in India though he hasn't often got his way. I am well and truly disgusted with the way the game is administered these days.

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Post by Guest Sat 02 Nov 2013, 8:42 pm

BCCI dont care about the cricket, all they want is the money

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Post by KP_fan Tue 05 Nov 2013, 1:34 pm

Dhoni spinning it.......and anyone's guess who he wants at No.6 Very Happy 
 
  The thing is whether we want to go with four bowlers, or if we want that fifth one,” Dhoni said after Tuesday practice. “Or do we want someone who can bowl a bit if needed? The decision is based on three different aspects. If we go with five bowlers, both of them (Rohit and Rahane) may not play. If we say we need someone who can bowl a bit of offspin, Rohit plays. If we say we go with four specialist bowlers (and six specialist batsmen), then maybe Ajinkya will play. You’ll have to wait and watch.”
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Post by KP_fan Tue 05 Nov 2013, 1:41 pm

I would be apalled thouhg if Dhoni plays Ishant ahead of Yadav or Shami or B. Kumar
the problem though is if he is in 15...then it becomes captain's choice.
 
it's not right thouhg to have a squad of 15 for a home game
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Post by msp83 Tue 05 Nov 2013, 6:28 pm

Certainly 4 seamers in Indian conditions is far too much. Can kind of understand the other picks. Rohit getting in for his bowling would be one of the most ridiculous justifications though....... Very hard on Rahane, but saying Rohit has been fine form in ODI cricket and so deserves his chance can sound a lot better, but picking him ahead of Rahane for his bowling? What is MS up to? But ever since the tonk ball series on the note that it eventually did, it was very clear for most of us that Sharma will be playing ahead of Rahane who just got the one test to prove himself. And we all know that the long rope and extended run in the side are all rules not made for someone like Rahane.
One of them have to play in South Africa anyways, so think since Jadeja is being rested, one of them rather than Mishra should get the nod. I hope it'll be Rahane, but I am sure it'll be Sharma.
Without Jadeja, I don't think Mishra has a chance. He is a bowler capable of batting a bit alright, but as Ravichandran Ashwin is not quite known for his containing skills, it'll be difficult for Dhoni to go in with Mishra, who too can offer more boundary balls than Ojha usually does. With Kolkata's octogenarian curator Prabir Mukharjee openly declaring that the bowlers are just a secondary component of the game that is a 'game of batsmanship' and suggesting that a bowler's wicket is an underprepared one', containing might be the way to go on days that could be rather too long. Then again, under those circumstances, the 6th batsman is a luxury that they might not need and even Mishra's batting skills should be enough to see him score a few if needed.

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Post by ShankyCricket Tue 05 Nov 2013, 7:52 pm

I want Rohit to play but really hope his bowling is not a reason for it. He's a far better batsman than Rahane.

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Post by Roger Laver Tue 05 Nov 2013, 7:56 pm

Great read. Good to see test cricket still generating so much interest Smile

No one's talking about a Tendulkar Farewell? LOL!

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Post by KP_fan Tue 05 Nov 2013, 8:06 pm

Certainly 4 seamers in Indian conditions is far too much. Can kind of understand the other picks. Rohit getting in for his bowling would be one of the most ridiculous justifications though
 
the guilt conscience of Dhoni...in his heart he knows he is hard doing Rahane...
 
he has done this before.....squeezed Raina in against NZ ahead of Rahane saying that India needed a Left hander at No.6
 
he has already declared shami ahmed's fitness is not good enouhg.
 
hope Yadav plays and not Ishant


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Post by ShankyCricket Tue 05 Nov 2013, 8:17 pm

Msp, why would only one of Rohit and Rahane play in SA? With Sachin retiring, wouldn't there be space for both? I know Jadeja is rested but I'm not sure he's a certainty in SA conditions. Don't get me wrong, I admire him but he has looked out of his depth with the bat even in the home Tests, so to expect him to bat at 7 and MSD at 6 on those pitches (MSD averages 29 as a test batsman outside the subcontinent. Look, I'm not criticising him and certainly not questioning his place in the side. He's easily the best keeper-batsman in the country but those stats are fine for a number 7, not a number 6, which is why he should bat no higher than 7 IMO outside Asia. In Asia, of course he can easily bat at 6). But MSD at 6 and Jadeja at 7 feels way too light in SA conditions. Of course, Jadeja offers an extra bowling option too but I can't imagine the 2nd spinner bowling much in SA especially as the Tests are at Jo'burg and Durban, not Cape Town and Port Elizabeth. A part timer can easily chip in with a few overs.

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Post by Roger Laver Tue 05 Nov 2013, 8:24 pm

ShankyCricket wrote:Msp, why would only one of Rohit and Rahane play in SA? With Sachin retiring, wouldn't there be space for both? I know Jadeja is rested but I'm not sure he's a certainty in SA conditions. Don't get me wrong, I admire him but he has looked out of his depth with the bat even in the home Tests, so to expect him to bat at 7 and MSD at 6 on those pitches (MSD averages 29 as a test batsman outside the subcontinent. Look, I'm not criticising him and certainly not questioning his place in the side. He's easily the best keeper-batsman in the country but those stats are fine for a number 7, not a number 6, which is why he should bat no higher than 7 IMO outside Asia. In Asia, of course he can easily bat at 6). But MSD at 6 and Jadeja at 7 feels way too light in SA conditions. Of course, Jadeja offers an extra bowling option too but I can't imagine the 2nd spinner bowling much in SA especially as the Tests are at Jo'burg and Durban, not Cape Town and Port Elizabeth. A part timer can easily chip in with a few overs.

India's main bowlers are not upto snuff. You want to go in with a strategy based on part-timers? I don't think that sounds wise!

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Post by msp83 Tue 05 Nov 2013, 10:09 pm

ShankyCricket wrote:Msp, why would only one of Rohit and Rahane play in SA? With Sachin retiring, wouldn't there be space for both? I know Jadeja is rested but I'm not sure he's a certainty in SA conditions. Don't get me wrong, I admire him but he has looked out of his depth with the bat even in the home Tests, so to expect him to bat at 7 and MSD at 6 on those pitches (MSD averages 29 as a test batsman outside the subcontinent. Look, I'm not criticising him and certainly not questioning his place in the side. He's easily the best keeper-batsman in the country but those stats are fine for a number 7, not a number 6, which is why he should bat no higher than 7 IMO outside Asia. In Asia, of course he can easily bat at 6). But MSD at 6 and Jadeja at 7 feels way too light in SA conditions. Of course, Jadeja offers an extra bowling option too but I can't imagine the 2nd spinner bowling much in SA especially as the Tests are at Jo'burg and Durban, not Cape Town and Port Elizabeth. A part timer can easily chip in with a few overs.
There is certainly a lot of logic in what you are saying there, Shanky. I agree with most of it as well. But I like the look of India going in with 5 bowlers, and if the pitches offer no life whatsoever to the spinner, I'd have Jadeja rather than Ashwin as the spinner, but if there is any chance of it offering just that little bit, it would be Ashwin. Think Jadeja is a better containing bowler.
Now that the selectors are looking to Zaheer Khan to lead the attack in South Africa, I think India should really go in with the additional bowling option. Rohit or Kohli aren't even half-decent parttime options with the ball. Sachin, Sehwag and Ganguly when they used to do some bowling were decent parttime options, Yuvraj is handy in that role though he can't be picked as his batting isn't test class. Shikhar, Vijay, Pujara, none of them are any good with the ball, Dhawan and Pujara have done little bit of bowling at the domestic level now and then but that's about it. Perhaps they could look at Rishi Dhawan as the all-rounder in non-sub-continent conditions? Jadeja at home, Dhawan away? And one of Jadeja and Ashwin as the spinner depending on the conditions and team?
The problem of Dhoni batting one position higher for comfort remains, but if Dhawan can find some batting form, and either of the spinners playing and Bhuvi, all capable with the bat provide greater depth to the lineup?

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Post by KP_fan Wed 06 Nov 2013, 7:59 am

well India plays Shami Ahmed and he triggers a Windies crash....reversing at 140kph with his deceptively quick bowling.
a stronger more controlled version of Agarkar.
spinner's not doing much.......worryingly for India....Ojha so slow in the air and off the ptich that he is not in the game until the pitch has detrioated.
 
that's where India is missing Jadeja.....undoubtedly India's first spinner.....who gets the ball to zip off the pitch even on D1.
 
and B. Kumar....can't get the ball to do muhc once the shine is off........Yadav would have been a better choice.

tendulkar looking plump......plucks out a wicket LBW a huge bonus
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Post by msp83 Wed 06 Nov 2013, 8:26 am

Well, when West Indies went to lunch at 107-2 with both Samuels and Darren Bravo well set, they looked in control. Samuels continued to play some fine shots after lunch, brought up his 50, got dropped by Dhoni, and then was cleaned up by the debutant Mohammed Shami for 65. Shami had earlier dismissed Kieran Powell for 28 when he was caught by his fellow seamer Bhuvneshwar Kumar when Powell attempted to pull one from way outside off stump. Chris Gayle edged one from Bhuvneshwar to Vijay at slip to go for 18. After Samuels went, a very careless Darren Bravo was run-out by the combination of Shami and the Indian skipper for 23 and soon after, Shami burst one through Denesh Ramdin. The West Indies skipper then played a very irresponsible shot when he hold out to Bhuvneshwar of Ojha for 19. And then came the big moment for the crowd, just before tea, Dhoni gave the ball to Sachin Tendulkar and he struck 4th ball to remove Shane Shillingford. This how cricinfo describes it.
"62.4

Tendulkar to Shillingford, OUT, lbw! Tendulkar has a wicket and Eden Gardens erupts. That was the ball that goes straight on. The flight was superb and the ball dipped on the right-hander too. Shillingford pushed forward to defend and was hit plumb in front. Tendulkar bowled a googly, bowled a legbreak and then got his man with a straight one. A terrific touch to this Test. That's tea by the way.   

S Shillingford lbw b Tendulkar 5 (39b 0x4 0x6) SR: 12.82".

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Post by msp83 Wed 06 Nov 2013, 8:27 am

As always, Shivnarine Chanderpaul is holding fort for his side. Chanderpaul has been averaging close to 70 in tests from 2007 onwards, and he has a 14 point higher average against India than his career average. Chanders is batting on 23.

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Post by msp83 Wed 06 Nov 2013, 8:36 am

As for the playing sides, as expected, parttime bowler Rohit Sharma has made his debut for India and thankfully they didn't go back to Ishant Potential Sharma and instead opted for Mohammed Shami. Kemar Roach's shoulder strain has opened up a spot for Sheldon Cottrell to make his debut for the West Indies. The West Indies are playing 2 spinners, Shane Shillingford and Veerasammy Permaul. Tino Best shares the seam bowling duties with Cottrell and skipper.
West Indies had gone with Ramdin at 6 and Sammy at 7 against Zimbabwe earlier this year and trying the same to try and address the imbalance of playing Sammy who is not quite good enough with ball or bat when taken separately, but then they needed a lot more than the rather irresponsible slog he tried against Ojha. They both, Ramdin and Sammy, are more of number 8 material, and are batting too high in this lineup.

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Post by KP_fan Wed 06 Nov 2013, 8:56 am

I think India should bowl shami one more burst now.....Ojha looking listless
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Post by KP_fan Wed 06 Nov 2013, 9:56 am

234 a.o for WI is a very happy situation that India would have accepeted.

neverthless the ineffectiveness of Ojha and limitation of B. Kumar stood out.

Yadav and Jadeja in the playing XI might have bundled them for 180
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Post by msp83 Wed 06 Nov 2013, 10:03 am

KPF, you've been a bit too demanding of the spinners on a day one track. Remember its Prabir Mukharjee's track, never a 234 all out one, the bounce has been on the lowish side right from the start and the ball wasn't really turning that much to warrant such a batting display.
With Shami being an attacking bowler who can go for a few runs, I think Bhuvneshwar is the best bet to partner him. And of all the bowlers selected in the squad, he's India's best bet to get wickets with the new ball.
When Ravindra Jadeja becomes available for the next home test, they can go for a more attacking spinner than Ojha in the playing side. Harbhajan in his recent international version isn't an attacking option, so it has to be Mishra. But for now, think Ojha is good enough to a job.

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Post by msp83 Wed 06 Nov 2013, 10:07 am

All the 5 bowlers India used picked up at least 1 wicket. Shami took 4, Ashwin picked up 2 including the big one of Shivnarine Chanderpaul, Bhuvneshwar, Ojha and Tendulkar took 1 each.
India are 28 without loss at the moment.

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Post by KP_fan Wed 06 Nov 2013, 10:27 am

msp83 wrote:KPF, you've been a bit too demanding of the spinners on a day one track. Remember its Prabir Mukharjee's track, never a 234 all out one, the bounce has been on the lowish side right from the start and the ball wasn't really turning that much to warrant such a batting display.
With Shami being an attacking bowler who can go for a few runs, I think Bhuvneshwar is the best bet to partner him. And of all the bowlers selected in the squad, he's India's best bet to get wickets with the new ball.
When Ravindra Jadeja becomes available for the next home test, they can go for a more attacking spinner than Ojha in the playing side. Harbhajan in his recent international version isn't an attacking option, so it has to be Mishra. But for now, think Ojha is good enough to a job.
I am demanding because there are better options availbale.

the pitch requires 135+ pace and reverse...whihc Bhunesh is not the right exponent for....given that we have 1 150kph Yadav availbale

jadeja siitting out is wierd to allow Rohit to mkae his debut on these Patta pitches and confirm his place
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Post by KP_fan Wed 06 Nov 2013, 10:35 am

Shillingford has looked good......spinning at fast pace...getting more out of the pitch than most otehr spinners.....reminds me of one Arshad Ayub who played for India
 
peeramul is also putting more revs and rip on the ball in the one over we saw then ojha....in spin WI are evenly matched if not a shade better.
They had a pretty good SLA in Suleman Benn.......dunno where he is?
 
regardless of what commentators say about the slightly short of leghth from Narine.....he is still the most deceptive spinner in the world alsongside Ajmal....and leaving him out is more political then cricketing based
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Post by msp83 Wed 06 Nov 2013, 10:45 am

India finish the day at 37 without loss. Vijay on 16 and Dhawan on 21 to resume tomorrow.
West Indies bowled 12 overs and the young debutant Sheldon Cottrell has generated good pace in his first spell. He even managed to hit Dhawan on the stomach ones. Tino Best was quick as always but erratic too.

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Post by msp83 Wed 06 Nov 2013, 10:51 am

The West Indies have been producing a few good spinners in recent times. But I doubt whether they are managed all that well. Devendra Bishoo, when he first emerged, looked a reall class bowler but after a couple of poor games he was dropped and has fallen out of favor with the selectors. Sunil Narine hasn't been able to adapt to test cricket all that well and there are a few technical issues with his bowling at the highest level, but again, he wasn't really given enough space to develop his craft at test level.
Suliman Ben has had major issues of discipline and then he lost form. His indiscipline was even good enough to ruffle even the calm and cool Chris Gayle ones when Gayle as skipper ordered him off the field in an international game!.

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Post by KP_fan Wed 06 Nov 2013, 10:56 am

Cottrell looked a bit like Pedro Collin......left arm pace but very erratic
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Post by msp83 Wed 06 Nov 2013, 11:23 am

But Pedro was more medium pace rather than real quick like Cotrell is. Had Sachin's number though!.

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Post by KP_fan Wed 06 Nov 2013, 11:28 am

msp83 wrote:But Pedro was more medium pace rather than real quick like Cotrell is. Had Sachin's number though!.
Pedor colins was easily in the 135-140kph range

Cottrell is in 135-145 kph range......
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Post by ShankyCricket Wed 06 Nov 2013, 12:53 pm

Its amazing that people are coming up with conspiracy theories regarding Jadeja's injury to undermine Rohit's test debut. I guess haters will hate.

Totally agree with Msp on the Yadav vs Bhuvi situation. With Shami in the side as an attacking bowler, having Yadav too is way too risky. Bhuvi is needed for his control and he did get the wicket of the IPL bully Gayle. As for Yadav bowling them out for 180, I suggest Kpfan to go and look at his figures in the Duleep trophy and first round of Ranji.

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Post by ShankyCricket Wed 06 Nov 2013, 1:15 pm

Btw totally agree with those saying Jadeja is our No.1 spinner and should play in SA as the frontline spinner. What I'm saying is he shouldn't bat at 7. He can still bat at 8 and play as one of the main 4 bowlers. But I'd play only 4 bowlers in SA. Going in with someone as untested as Rishi Dhawan straightaway against SA is a tad too risky for my comfort. Maybe try him in the shorter formats against WI and SA first and see how he goes? I still think we need a specialist batsman at 6 and Dhoni at 7. Wouldn't expect any of the "bowling allrounders" to score a lot of runs against SA. Unlike say England, who also have a good seam attack but they tend to struggle against the tail, SA are very good at wiping off the tail, which is why I don't think 3 bowlers, who can all bat a bit, don't make up for the loss of a proper batsman against SA. Against other sides, maybe. But I wouldn't expect anything from the lower order in SA. I wouldn't mind playing 5 bowlers in England next summer, especially as its a 5 test series, cramped into a short span of time, which could be very demanding on the bowlers. But in SA, an extra batsman is the need of the hour in my humble opinion.

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Post by subhranshu.kumar.5 Wed 06 Nov 2013, 1:29 pm

msp83 wrote:
ShankyCricket wrote:Msp, why would only one of Rohit and Rahane play in SA? With Sachin retiring, wouldn't there be space for both? I know Jadeja is rested but I'm not sure he's a certainty in SA conditions. Don't get me wrong, I admire him but he has looked out of his depth with the bat even in the home Tests, so to expect him to bat at 7 and MSD at 6 on those pitches (MSD averages 29 as a test batsman outside the subcontinent. Look, I'm not criticising him and certainly not questioning his place in the side. He's easily the best keeper-batsman in the country but those stats are fine for a number 7, not a number 6, which is why he should bat no higher than 7 IMO outside Asia. In Asia, of course he can easily bat at 6). But MSD at 6 and Jadeja at 7 feels way too light in SA conditions. Of course, Jadeja offers an extra bowling option too but I can't imagine the 2nd spinner bowling much in SA especially as the Tests are at Jo'burg and Durban, not Cape Town and Port Elizabeth. A part timer can easily chip in with a few overs.
There is certainly a lot of logic in what you are saying there, Shanky. I agree with most of it as well. But I like the look of India going in with 5 bowlers, and if the pitches offer no life whatsoever to the spinner, I'd have Jadeja rather than Ashwin as the spinner, but if there is any chance of it offering just that little bit, it would be Ashwin. Think Jadeja is a better containing bowler.
Now that the selectors are looking to Zaheer Khan to lead the attack in South Africa, I think India should really go in with the additional bowling option. Rohit or Kohli aren't even half-decent parttime options with the ball. Sachin, Sehwag and Ganguly when they used to do some bowling were decent parttime options, Yuvraj is handy in that role though he can't be picked as his batting isn't test class. Shikhar, Vijay, Pujara, none of them are any good with the ball, Dhawan and Pujara have done little bit of bowling at the domestic level now and then but that's about it. Perhaps they could look at Rishi Dhawan as the all-rounder in non-sub-continent conditions? Jadeja at home, Dhawan away? And one of Jadeja and Ashwin as the spinner depending on the conditions and team?
The problem of Dhoni batting one position higher for comfort remains, but if Dhawan can find some batting form, and either of the spinners playing and Bhuvi, all capable with the bat provide greater depth to the lineup?
MSP I too feel that both Rahane and Rohit should be in the line up. Look if selectors are looking forward for Zaheer as the lead attacker then going with 4 bowlers we have three option left, and that if we chose Ashwin as a sole spinner, then two fasters would be Yadav and Bhuvi. Shami also not to be neglected. So the team would be
Shikhar, Vijay, Pujara, Kohli, Rohit, Rahane, Dhoni, Ashwin, Bhuvi, Yadav, Zaheer.

Look if we change the line up to 6-5 then I think selectors should give Rohit a chance ahead of Vijay and Rahane in the middle. And for the bowlers, Zak,Yadav,Bhuvi,Shami,Ashwin. I will not even consider Ishant. I forwaded Rohit ahead of Vijay because The way Vijay plays does not support the game to be played on the pitches of SA, and if Rohit is successful we will have an opener in reserve.
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Post by KP_fan Wed 06 Nov 2013, 2:04 pm

ShankyCricket wrote:Its amazing that people are coming up with conspiracy theories regarding Jadeja's injury to undermine Rohit's test debut. I guess haters will hate.




The selectors opened themselves to questions...after making the very unreasonable move to declare Jadeja unfit for tests but letting him play 2 ODIs.

Nobody hates Rohit.....he is one of the young talents in the country...that we are all looking forward to blossoming.

However questions will be raised if:

1) Rahane is removed unduly after being the first in queue
2) Jadeja is made to sit out on the pretext of a strange injury the direct beneficary of which is Rohit
3) Funny justifications like " Rohit will be preferred for his part time bowling"

All of those questions are implying the unfairness / biass / breaking the queue by the selectors and captain.......and not " people hate Rohit"

whether he is more talented or desrving than rahane can be a matter of debate.

that he is a beneficary of "undue favours in selection process" is not his fault but a fact beyond any debates
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Post by KP_fan Wed 06 Nov 2013, 2:08 pm

With Shami in the side as an attacking bowler, having Yadav too is way too risky. Bhuvi is needed for his control and he did get the wicket of the IPL bully Gayle. As for Yadav bowling them out for 180, I suggest Kpfan to go and look at his figures in the Duleep trophy and first round of Ranj
--shami showed pace and reverse is more effective than medium speed conventional swing.

--yadav is a better proponent of pace and reverse swing...it would be like having 2 shami-ahmed equivalents.

FC cricket records is seen when giving a break to a new-comer or testing the form of one dropped from the side.
Not in context a regular player who has held his place in the side.
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Post by Roger Laver Wed 06 Nov 2013, 3:44 pm

Shami did great, but it should not overshadow the real problem that faces India and Indian cricket.

Here is an article I penned, thoughts and comments are welcome:

http://sportzcosmos.com/2013/10/20/who-dropped-the-ball/


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Post by Roger Laver Wed 06 Nov 2013, 3:48 pm

KP_fan wrote:
ShankyCricket wrote:Its amazing that people are coming up with conspiracy theories regarding Jadeja's injury to undermine Rohit's test debut. I guess haters will hate.




The selectors opened themselves to questions...after making the very unreasonable move to declare Jadeja unfit for tests but letting him play 2 ODIs.

Nobody hates Rohit.....he is one of the young talents in the country...that we are all looking forward to blossoming.

However questions will be raised if:

1) Rahane is removed unduly after being the first in queue
2) Jadeja is made to sit out on the pretext of a strange injury the direct beneficary of which is Rohit
3) Funny justifications like " Rohit will be preferred for his part time bowling"

All of those questions are implying the unfairness / biass / breaking the queue by the selectors and captain.......and not " people hate Rohit"

whether he is more talented or desrving than rahane can be a matter of debate.

that he is a beneficary of "undue favours in selection process" is not his fault but a fact beyond any debates
1st things 1st, BCCI/selectors are always questionable, no need to specially "open" up.

Rohit is very deserving of his place. Rahane will have his chances. He got his chances and did not take them. If Rohit doesn't come good, Rahane will be back in contention....

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Post by msp83 Wed 06 Nov 2013, 4:09 pm

Roger, Rahane didn't have his chances, he just had a single test before being dropped. Look at Rohit, it took him over a hundred games of consistent failure to establish himself. Rahane got only 16 ODIs and never got a proper run in the side, forget the massively extended run that Sharma got.
Rohit has earned most of the criticism that comes his way for the accumulated failures of 6 years. He has done a bit to reverse a lot of it this year, but the way his test selection being spinned around, and the mysterious way Jadeja was conveniently rested from the test series can bring up legitimate questions. Saying that Rohit had an outstanding series against Australia, and as most of India's test players in recent times have come through the ODI pathway, it is good to give him a go is fair enough.
Perhaps Rohit will get going in tests right away without extended favors from the team management and he won't be picked for the next 50 tests on potential, hopefully he'll play over a hundred tests for India based on performance.
But I for one, remain in need of further convincing.

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Post by Roger Laver Wed 06 Nov 2013, 4:26 pm

msp83:

Fair enough, but 1 test is all you will get with BCCI running the show. I will be surprised if Rahane, a Mumbai guy has no backing in the BCCI.

If anyone should complain, it is Rayudu and hyderabadis/AP guys and their fans like me. Look at Laxman's career.

I am positive Rahane and Rohit will get more than a long rope with all the Mumbai bigwigs around.

Rayudu, now let us sob for that dude..... No godfather and an orphan in Indian Cricket!

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