Was the decision AWJ's or Biggar's?

First topic message reminder :

Curious to know what you think about the kick for goal-v-kick for touch "discussion".  Let's ignore the aftermath because that would clearly influence comments and thoughts

Surely AWJ has to have the final say as he is captain? He dictates the tactics and tempo and if he felt that there was a greater need to get the scoreboard ticking again, it was up to him. I wouldn't have been surprised if he had asked Biggar or 1/2p for their opinion but he is accountable to the coach for what happens.

Alternatively, was Biggar, by his actions, saying that he didn't fancy the kick although it wasn't that windy and it was from the "right" side of the pitch?

beshocked wrote:

Welsh fans too often don't see the reality. You aren't as good as you think you are.

Changes are needed.

Eesh, coming from you? And an Englishman?

Changes are need for England, it seems, as Scotland appear to be red hot favourites going into their next game going on the basis of how Wales very nearly beat England, but were blown out of the water second half by Scotland...!

Bookies would disagree with your assertion of red hot favourites...

Of course. But one WUM deserves another.

All those having a laugh at England about "knowing the laws" should ask AWJ, Bigger and the ref about what happens after signaling a kick at goal?
Also I seem to remember when robshaw kicked for the corner rather than posts from a nation that plays in red and how he was a joke of a skipper and weak as it didn't pay off?

For me bigger needs dropping from the squad, (Sam Davis is a better option) until his attitude changes and his constant waving of arms milking plays to get penalties.

And the rest of the squad has a clear the air session and if needed choose the captain they will follow

miaow wrote:Of course. But one WUM deserves another.

Just like AWJ: Dont go for the posts, go for the WUM instead.

Quite simple really, wait for the players to tell you rather than making crap up eh


http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/39120570

It's a shame John Lacey waited for the players to tell him what to do...after changing their minds...& not sticking to the laws of the game.
Lots of indecisions - the whole episode including the line out was a shambles.

So after Dan has had his feelings hurt, he tells the world that halfpenny didn't fancy it (isn't he a world class kicker? I'm sure he will thank him in private) and he didn't want it either (as it wasn't right in front of the posts) so between them they changed the skippers mind.
That clears that up then

miaow wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Welsh fans too often don't see the reality. You aren't as good as you think you are.

Changes are needed.

Eesh, coming from you? And an Englishman?

Changes are need for England, it seems, as Scotland appear to be red hot favourites going into their next game going on the basis of how Wales very nearly beat England, but were blown out of the water second half by Scotland...!

Despite being labelled arrogant a lot. I think English fans are fairly realistic.

We don't think we are yet as good as NZ and there's still plenty of work to do. I am probably one of the most negative England fans, regularly criticising poor performances from English players. I am sure plenty of fans are sick of my repetitive criticisms which unfortunately have come to fruition on a few occasions. I am not always right though.

The problem with your statement is it's inaccurate. Mine wasn't.

You might not believe it but I want to see a strong Wales. Keeps England on our toes. I praised you for your heart and passion in your victory in the RWC over England.

This issue with AWJ has come about because of a lack of a strong leadership core. If Wales showed the same passion against every side (not just England), they'd likely perform better.

Wales need to re-invent themselves just as the likes of Scotland and England have.

This AWJ,Halfpenny,Biggar incident seems similar to Robshaw's dilemma.

Now I don't know enough about Rhys Webb's leadership/personality. Do you think he'd make a good captain?

[quote="beshocked"]

miaow wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Welsh fans too often don't see the reality. You aren't as good as you think you are.

Changes are needed.

This issue with AWJ has come about because of a lack of a strong leadership core. If Wales showed the same passion against every side (not just England), they'd likely perform better.

I think this is the bit that rankles with a lot of us.  Any close game (or win) against England is put down to us raising our game just because it's England.  The reality, for me, is that the game was close because England are not streets ahead of Wales like they think they are.  Better at the moment, yes.  And last season you were much better.  But the game the other week was close because the two sides were fairly evenly matched, on form.  England's performances against France and Italy suggest that you're not as good as last year either.  So any time we win or get close against England there is no credit given, it's just that we've pulled out all stops against the Auld Enemy.  I think this is a myth.  Granted we're inconsistent a lot of the time but I've seen just as much passion and effort put into Ireland games, etc.  In fact, to turn it on it's head you could ask where our passion was the times you've thrashed us?  Surely they should have been close too?  Or was it just that we were rubbish that year and played to form?

Griff wrote:

beshocked wrote:

miaow wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Welsh fans too often don't see the reality. You aren't as good as you think you are.

Changes are needed.

This issue with AWJ has come about because of a lack of a strong leadership core. If Wales showed the same passion against every side (not just England), they'd likely perform better.

I think this is the bit that rankles with a lot of us.  Any close game (or win) against England is put down to us raising our game just because it's England.  The reality, for me, is that the game was close because England are not streets ahead of Wales like they think they are.  Better at the moment, yes.  And last season you were much better.  But the game the other week was close because the two sides were fairly evenly matched, on form.  England's performances against France and Italy suggest that you're not as good as last year either.  So any time we win or get close against England there is no credit given, it's just that we've pulled out all stops against the Auld Enemy.  I think this is a myth.  Granted we're inconsistent a lot of the time but I've seen just as much passion and effort put into Ireland games, etc.  In fact, to turn it on it's head you could ask where our passion was the times you've thrashed us?  Surely they should have been close too?  Or was it just that we were rubbish that year and played to form?

Do you seriously think Wales played better vs Scotland than England?

I am not saying that the England-Wales games in recent years haven't been hard fought. They have but beating England matters more than beating Scotland.

It's natural for sides to have a dip in confidence and intensity after losing in a hard fought contest at home.

The home team generally holds the advantage. It's why England are the only side so far to beat a side away from home not called Italy.

You could argue England were more up for the Wales game than the Italy game too - England looked flat during the national anthem and so it proved in the first half.

England have their own issues but so do Wales.

First thing you need to do - admit you have a problem, then you can fix it.

Wales have been on a gradual slide since 2013, notable wins over England in 2013 and 2015 have helped paper over the cracks. It's all good - we can still push England and beat them on our day.

The loss to Scotland should have alarm bells ringing, sure this is the best Scotland in years but Wales need to look to change their fortunes.

Wales have slowly gone from best in the NH to 4th in the NH and if they lose to France and Ireland might drop to 5th in the NH.

Change is needed.

Shhh, I for one am perfectly happy for Wales to paper over the cracks!!

beshocked wrote:

Griff wrote:

beshocked wrote:

miaow wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Welsh fans too often don't see the reality. You aren't as good as you think you are.

Changes are needed.

This issue with AWJ has come about because of a lack of a strong leadership core. If Wales showed the same passion against every side (not just England), they'd likely perform better.

I think this is the bit that rankles with a lot of us.  Any close game (or win) against England is put down to us raising our game just because it's England.  The reality, for me, is that the game was close because England are not streets ahead of Wales like they think they are.  Better at the moment, yes.  And last season you were much better.  But the game the other week was close because the two sides were fairly evenly matched, on form.  England's performances against France and Italy suggest that you're not as good as last year either.  So any time we win or get close against England there is no credit given, it's just that we've pulled out all stops against the Auld Enemy.  I think this is a myth.  Granted we're inconsistent a lot of the time but I've seen just as much passion and effort put into Ireland games, etc.  In fact, to turn it on it's head you could ask where our passion was the times you've thrashed us?  Surely they should have been close too?  Or was it just that we were rubbish that year and played to form?

Do you seriously think Wales played better vs Scotland than England?

I am not saying that the England-Wales games in recent years haven't been hard fought. They have but beating England matters more than beating Scotland.

It's natural for sides to have a dip in confidence and intensity after losing in a hard fought contest at home.

The home team generally holds the advantage. It's why England are the only side so far to beat a side away from home not called Italy.

You could argue England were more up for the Wales game than the Italy game too - England looked flat during the national anthem and so it proved in the first half.

England have their own issues but so do Wales.

First thing you need to do - admit you have a problem, then you can fix it.

Wales have been on a gradual slide since 2013, notable wins over England in 2013 and 2015 have helped paper over the cracks. It's all good - we can still push England and beat them on our day.

The loss to Scotland should have alarm bells ringing, sure this is the best Scotland in years but Wales need to look to change their fortunes.

Wales have slowly gone from best in the NH to 4th in the NH and if they lose to France and Ireland might drop to 5th in the NH.

Change is needed.

No, my only point in the above post was to respond to your point that I highlighted - i.e. that Wales only 'get up' for England.  I personally think it's a myth, and a media driven nonsense. We 'get up' just as much as for other teams.  Ireland is a fierce rivalry now, for example.  So the 'arrogant' label that gets attributed to England results from you claiming that we only go close to you because we tried harder.  We got close because we played good rugby.

I think you have to look back about a year to compare the performance Wales gave against England. Surely that says something?

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I think you have to look back about a year to compare the performance Wales gave against England. Surely that says something?

What does it say? That we only 'get up' for England?

Griff - Wales always put a up a good performance against England (in relative recent times) but it has taken probably since The second NZ test last Summer some 8 or 9 games to do it.

The last game the performance tailed off. The challenge is to get that back consistently.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Griff - Wales always put a up a good performance against England (in relative recent times) but it has taken probably since The second NZ test last Summer some 8 or 9 games to do it.

The last game the performance tailed off. The challenge is to get that back consistently.

Oh, we definitely want consistency. But I think we're at cross purposes here. I was only responding to beshocked's claim that England is always the big one. It is not. Times have changed.

Well I disagree. England-Wales is still the big one for Wales. To be fair we English care too.

Compare Wales' performance against England to their lackluster ones vs Italy,Japan,Australia etc.

Wales do seem to be more up for it.

If you tried as hard and performed better against other sides you'd probably do better.

In the RWC, the losses to SA and Australia didn't matter. Gatland was retained and Biggar was voted wales player of the year, mainly for that victory over England.

Griff wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Griff - Wales always put a up a good performance against England (in relative recent times) but it has taken probably since The second NZ test last Summer some 8 or 9 games to do it.

The last game the performance tailed off. The challenge is to get that back consistently.

Oh, we definitely want consistency.  But I think we're at cross purposes here.  I was only responding to beshocked's claim that England is always the big one.  It is not.  Times have changed.

Yeah Italy are the comeptition for the wooden spoon this year.

late comment on this one ....if anyone is bothered....have another look at the kick no kick scenario. first camera shot shows scrum cap of halfpenny infront of warbs and awj.....we now know that halfp ...the kicker..didn't want the kick...halfp then makes his way to the touch line.
Imagine the stick biggar would have got if he had said I ll kick it...he misses....you sh8te biggar !!! we could have gone for the corner!!! ball was given to biggar , halfp has refused kick, biggar always kicks for touch, he knows half p has said no.....awj is saying kick.....and biggar asks 3 times if he wants the corner...so there it is....ref says kicks been chosen... halfp refuses , dan asks corner.......if awj keeps saying kick he should have told half p to take it....dan been blamed on this and its halfp....who crept off to the touch line ....who should have had the media attention . good on you dan...doing your job...kicking for touch when THE KICKER WONT KICK FOR POSTS..........

well...just read halfp ' I was wrong not to take kick' and awj 'in all honesty( didn't ask dan to take kick)and in fairness not to undermine half p, ' well great.....hope all the biggar hitters are happy.......also lot of press on biggar no way was disrespectful . ive been abroad ,you can tell, not kept up. BUT its so nice to see people saying how unfair this has been on dan...

gavstar wrote:well...just read halfp  ' I was wrong not to take kick'   and awj 'in all honesty( didn't ask dan to take kick)and in fairness not to undermine half p, '    well great.....hope all the biggar hitters are happy.......also lot of press on biggar no way was disrespectful .   ive been abroad ,you can tell, not kept up.   BUT  its so nice to see people saying how unfair this has been on dan...

Gav, being an Osprey ST holder I've kept out of this, but it is nice to see at last a sensible post on this.

As well as your accurate posting on this, Brad Davis (Ospreys defence coach) at the Edinburgh Pre match Press Conference, was asked how he rated AWJ as a captain, he answered he is right up there with the best of them, and actually named 3 of them, he was straight away asked another question as to his interpretation of the kick or no kick, and he has answered, he has NEVER known of a captain that hasn't asked the kicker do you fancy this kick, and if the answer is in the NEGATIVE, another option is taken. Further to add Neil Jenkins in the Welsh Press Conference last Tuesday answered to another question that Leigh Halfpenny took full responsibility for the turning down of the kick option.

What you really have to take into account is that the vast majority that have posted on here, have axes to grind about AWJ being Lions tour captain, and the selection of Dan Biggar as first of all selection for his National team and Lions.

The kicking tee was on the pitch so in accordance with World Rugby Law 21.4(c) the kick for goal had to be taken.Simples.

wayne wrote:

gavstar wrote:well...just read halfp  ' I was wrong not to take kick'   and awj 'in all honesty( didn't ask dan to take kick)and in fairness not to undermine half p, '    well great.....hope all the biggar hitters are happy.......also lot of press on biggar no way was disrespectful .   ive been abroad ,you can tell, not kept up.   BUT  its so nice to see people saying how unfair this has been on dan...

Gav, being an Osprey ST holder I've kept out of this, but it is nice to see at last a sensible post on this.

As well as your accurate posting on this, Brad Davis (Ospreys defence coach) at the Edinburgh Pre match Press Conference, was asked how he rated AWJ as a captain, he answered he is right up there with the best of them, and actually named 3 of them, he was straight away asked another question as to his interpretation of the kick or no kick, and he has answered, he has NEVER known of a captain that hasn't asked the kicker do you fancy this kick, and if the answer is in the NEGATIVE, another option is taken. Further to add Neil Jenkins in the Welsh Press Conference last Tuesday answered to another question that Leigh Halfpenny took full responsibility for the turning down of the kick option.

What you really have to take into account is that the vast majority that have posted on here, have axes to grind about AWJ being Lions tour captain, and the selection of Dan Biggar as first of all selection for his National team and Lions.  

I accept all that. HOWEVER, have the conversation before you make the decision in that case. Clearly AWJs has decided he wanted to take the kick, the tee has come on. 1/2p didn't fancy it - decision changed ( albeit it shouldn't have been allowed to be!)
However, you try to defend it its smacks of indecision or a changed decision that shouldn't have been allowed.

There's no way this was done by AWJ on his own. Therefore it has to be some sort of conspiracy and that truth is what the WRU is trying to cover up.

exile jack wrote:The kicking tee was on the pitch so in accordance with World Rugby Law 21.4(c) the kick for goal had to be taken.Simples.

Can agree with that, so the fault was with the Referee. Not with any of the options in the OP.

I wish the ref had applied the laws correctly and made us take the kick.

Griff wrote:I wish the ref had applied the laws correctly and made us take the kick.

Griff agree with that, but a hell of a lot on here would have found another stick to hit AWJ and Dan with.

Gwlad wrote:There's no way this was done by AWJ on his own. Therefore it has to be some sort of conspiracy and that truth is what the WRU is trying to cover up.

AWJ is captain. there fore IT IS HIS RESPONSABILITY.

majesticimperialman wrote:

Gwlad wrote:There's no way this was done by AWJ on his own. Therefore it has to be some sort of conspiracy and that truth is what the WRU is trying to cover up.

AWJ is captain. there fore IT IS HIS RESPONSABILITY.

you're spot on Wayne......even after the game against England , sir clive couldn't bring himself to mention dan in his newspaper column., ...says it all. Haven't read any apologies from the media on this one.......only apology has come from halfpenny........and that was only after the media frenzy on awj and dan........as dan said in his interview' lessons to be learned ,get your facts before you accuse people .

The question set by the OP should be,

'Should AWJs have consulted with his kicker first before making the decision to go for the kick or not?

Yes or no.

The context should then be put in with the decisions made against England when he turned down 2 very kickable penalties.

These are the reasons his decision making has come into question.

It sounds like it's Biggar being his usual self and AWJ backing down.

Drop them both (after the Ireland game).

Cyril....know you're on a wind up....unless you really haven't read the true story...was on wru web, and walesonline.......dan biggar was the only one prepared to do his job...kick for touch. our kicker hpenny didnt want to kick ' I was wrong...I let earlier mistakes influence my decision ' awj should have said kick it ....or a straight kick to touch....instead of being unclear what to do when your kicker refuses a kick. half p needs the boot imo.

Cyril....know you're on a wind up....unless you really haven't read the true story...was on wru web, and walesonline.......dan biggar was the only one prepared to do his job...kick for touch. our kicker hpenny didnt want to kick ' I was wrong...I let earlier mistakes influence my decision ' awj should have said kick it ....or a straight kick to touch....instead of being unclear what to do when your kicker refuses a kick. half p needs the boot imo.

Cyril wrote:It sounds like it's Biggar being his usual self and AWJ backing down.

Drop them both (after the Ireland game).

Why not drop them both, before the Ireland Game?