6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

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IRELAND v ENGLAND
18 March 2017
KO: 17:00 GMT
Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Referee: Jerome Garces (France)
Touch judges: Mathieu Raynal (France) & Marius Mitrea (Italy)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

Live on [BBC, RTE, DMAX, FR2, ITV (H)]

A. Head to Head

131 Played 131
47 Won 76
8 Drawn 8
76 Lost 47
1,079 Points 1,526

B. Recent Form

27 February 2016
Twickenham, London
21 – 10 to England

5 September 2015
Twickenham, London
21 – 13 to England

1 March 2015
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
19 – 9 to Ireland

22 February 2014
Twickenham, London
13 – 10 to England

10 February 2013
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
6 – 12 to England

17 March 2012
Twickenham, London
30 – 9 to England

C. Teams

IRELAND

Payne; Earls, Ringrose, Henshaw, Zebo; Sexton, Marmion; McGrath, Best (captain), Furlong; Ryan, Henderson; Stander, O'Brien, Heaslip,

Replacements: Scannell, Healy, Ryan, Toner, O'Mahony, McGrath, Jackson, Conway.

ENGLAND

Brown; Watson, Joseph, Farrell, Daly; Ford, Youngs; Marler, Hartley (captain), Cole; Launchbury, Lawes; Itoje, Haskell, B Vunipola.

Replacements: George, M Vunipola, Sinckler, Wood, Hughes, Care, Te'o, Nowell.

Munchkin wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

B91212 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I'm happy Toner has been dropped to the bench. Best took a lot of flak for the lineout malfunction against Wales, but I do think Toner was the issue. Hopefully we see a marked improvement, although I would have liked POM to start to help in that regard.

Hooker always invariably gets the blame from the fans when it can be many reasons why they go wrong. I think the better lineout callers, when things are going wrong, start calling the throws away from them instead of trying to single handedly makes things right by calling everything to themselves, thus enabling opposition jumpers to tightly mark them and thus put even more pressure on the thrower.

Absolutely. I think a big problem is that our lineout has become very easy to read/predict and, in spite of Toners size advantage, he has been out thought, and out jumped. England will certainly prove a stern test for our lineout, so it will be interesting to see how Ryan and Henderson cope.

POC should be brought in to the Ireland side.  I knows he's a Munster man but we have to overlook that shortcoming for the goodness of the side.  He'd improve our lineout smarts.

Actually, that might not be a bad idea. Not as a player, but as an assistant coach. I think he would work wonders for our lineout .... even with the disadvantage of not being a true Blue

I meant as a coach, Munch just forgot to emphasise the point.

SecretFly wrote:I could be regretting my words but for me, yeah Payne might be ready to give more to the 15 position than Kearney has of late.  I hope that isn't a yellow or red card so Payne's enthusiasm to be back in the side better not let his eagerness get the better of him.  But I'm happy enough that it's a change in a position that needs attention.
But even more so, I gotta say, I'm at least hoping Marmion will give us a different dimension from 9.  I admit he's more my idea of what a 9 should be.  He'll probably be put under a lot of pressure in defence but...well, we have to see if we have anything else going on in that position apart from Murray.  10 and 9 are pretty much the conductors of the show so I for one will be interested to see what Marmion can add, if anything, to our game when going forward.

Also Zebo and Payne work very well together. Would like to see Zebo take more ball at first receiver even if it's just to take the pressure off Sexton

SecretFly wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

B91212 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I'm happy Toner has been dropped to the bench. Best took a lot of flak for the lineout malfunction against Wales, but I do think Toner was the issue. Hopefully we see a marked improvement, although I would have liked POM to start to help in that regard.

Hooker always invariably gets the blame from the fans when it can be many reasons why they go wrong. I think the better lineout callers, when things are going wrong, start calling the throws away from them instead of trying to single handedly makes things right by calling everything to themselves, thus enabling opposition jumpers to tightly mark them and thus put even more pressure on the thrower.

Absolutely. I think a big problem is that our lineout has become very easy to read/predict and, in spite of Toners size advantage, he has been out thought, and out jumped. England will certainly prove a stern test for our lineout, so it will be interesting to see how Ryan and Henderson cope.

POC should be brought in to the Ireland side.  I knows he's a Munster man but we have to overlook that shortcoming for the goodness of the side.  He'd improve our lineout smarts.

Actually, that might not be a bad idea. Not as a player, but as an assistant coach. I think he would work wonders for our lineout .... even with the disadvantage of not being a true Blue

I meant as a coach, Munch just forgot to emphasise the point.

You didn't need to. I know what you meant. I was just making sure you knew what I meant o0

Schmidt relied very heavily on Murray's sweeping defence (which saved Kearney's neck a few times).

How much has Payne played at 15 recently?

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

cascough wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:No he definitely is. Do some research online no current referee has attracted as much controversy nor criticism as Barnes.

Want research? We should use facts, not opinion as confirmation bias shows that if you have an opinion you wont change it in the face of evidence.

He's refereed 10 Six Nations games for Ireland.

Ireland have conceded more penalties than their opponents on 2 of the 10 occasions.

Ireland have conceded 106 penalties, their opponents 126.

Ireland have received 7 yellow cards, their opponents 9.

Thus the mystery?

Ireland have also conceded above their average haul of penalties when he refs and have won way below their average win loss ratio.

Also how many of those games were against Wales?

But even if that's the case, neither of those two things imply bias when set against the statistics provided to you.

Yes they do.

Can you explain why a guy who went to school in wales and grew up 10 miles from Wales has reffed the majority of Ireland v Wales games in the last 10 years?

Marmion was born in Barking, England to Irish parents and was raised in Brecon, Wales.

Methinks you have a spy in your ranks

Sin é wrote:Schmidt relied very heavily on Murray's sweeping defence (which saved Kearney's neck a few times).

So Murray is only needed when Kearney plays?

munkian wrote:

Marmion was born in Barking, England to Irish parents and was raised in Brecon, Wales.

Methinks you have a spy in your ranks

Well, considering our last outing, he's a bloody double agent!

SecretFly wrote:POC should be brought in to the Ireland side (oops - as a coach!   ).  I knows he's a Munster man but we have to overlook that shortcoming for the goodness of the side.  He'd improve our lineout smarts.

Well you can't have him as he is the only semi-decent pundit on the whole of the woeful BBC 6N team.

Actually over here we will get the RTE coverage this week as Ireland are the home team. Now I don't generally mind their in game commentary guys as they come across as pretty clued up but they can talk their own players up a little bit over the top. Can't remember the game but even I was starting to agree that Earls was the best player on the planet until I gave my head a shake . Anyway, anything will be an improvement on the BBC. By the end of the Wales Ireland game last week, even though it would have been detrimental to England I was hoping that Ireland would have won just to stop pompous Eddie Butler talking out of his backside. It wasn't a great game as him and Jiffy kept stating, it was an intriguing and brutal game. I don't think he wouldn't have been so gushing if Wales had of lost....

B91212 wrote: By the end of the Wales Ireland game last week, even though it would have been detrimental to England I was hoping that Ireland would have won just to stop pompous Eddie Butler talking out of his backside. It wasn't a great game as him and Jiffy kept stating, it was an intriguing and brutal game. I don't think he wouldn't have been so gushing if Wales had of lost....

Eddie of Butler is contractually obligated to regard all things with a poetic flourish of rear-endom.

SecretFly wrote:

munkian wrote:

Marmion was born in Barking, England to Irish parents and was raised in Brecon, Wales.

Methinks you have a spy in your ranks

Well, considering our last outing, he's a bloody double agent!  

Most of your backline would have been lined up and shot to be fair.

Having watched Ireland v Wales on RTE I'd say we have the best of a bad bunch.

munkian wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

munkian wrote:

Marmion was born in Barking, England to Irish parents and was raised in Brecon, Wales.

Methinks you have a spy in your ranks

Well, considering our last outing, he's a bloody double agent!  

Most of your backline would have been lined up and shot to be fair.

It's never too late. I think the English team are putting their hands up to be firing squad at the weekend.

With Murry, Kearney, and Toner out of the the starting 15/23. 

How much of a loss will it be for Ireland?

majesticimperialman wrote:With Murry, Kearney, and Toner out of the the starting 15/23. 

How much of a loss will it be for Ireland?

Murray is a loss, although Marmion will probably do well. Payne is better than Kearney, with the exception of under the high ball. Henderson offers more than Toner, but for lineout, but Toner's lineout quality has fallen, so hopefully an improved lineout, but won't know until the game.

majesticimperialman wrote:With Murry, Kearney, and Toner out of the the starting 15/23. 

How much of a loss will it be for Ireland?

You mean scoreline?  

Toner missing - tall but not quite explosive enough = +5 points to Ireland
Kearney missing - once quite heroic with the sprints and 50 metre high jumps, now a soil specialist with a nose for close up examination of nematodes = +10 points to Ireland
Murray missing - good but injured = /

So those three players absent should ensure Ireland have a 15 point head start

SecretFly wrote:Eddie of Butler is contractually obligated to regard all things with a poetic flourish of rear-endom.

Nicely done, and spoken a little like the pompous full of hot air man himself. But factually very correct. With the BBC it is certainly still jobs for the boys as far as people like him and Inverdale are concerned. I'd be severely p****d if I still had to pay the licence fee. In fact I am still p****d that I paid it for 10 years or so. when people like that are employed. But I guess I should be grateful that neither of the UK domestic channels contract Stuart Barnes in for the tournament. Then I would rather have french coverage, and I don't speak french. Thankfully ITV did the sensible thing and went for the BT guys.[/quote]

I think England need to get into Sexton early to really disrupt the Irish. Every big hit from Haskell or Lawes will get him playing a little further behind the gain line and make things easier for the rest of our defence.

England lost game in 2015 because Ireland's halfbacks ran the game and Ireland played in the right areas. With the loss of Murray's control and box kicking, England should target Sexton. Knock him off his game and Ireland will need somethimg special from somewhere else.

B91212 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:POC should be brought in to the Ireland side (oops - as a coach!   ).  I knows he's a Munster man but we have to overlook that shortcoming for the goodness of the side.  He'd improve our lineout smarts.

Well you can't have him as he is the only semi-decent pundit on the whole of the woeful BBC 6N team.

Actually over here we will get the RTE coverage this week as Ireland are the home team. Now I don't generally mind their in game commentary guys as they come across as pretty clued up but they can talk their own players up a little bit over the top. Can't remember the game but even I was starting to agree that Earls was the best player on the planet until I gave my head a shake . Anyway, anything will be an improvement on the BBC. By the end of the Wales Ireland game last week, even though it would have been detrimental to England I was hoping that Ireland would have won just to stop pompous Eddie Butler talking out of his backside. It wasn't a great game as him and Jiffy kept stating, it was an intriguing and brutal game. I don't think he wouldn't have been so gushing if Wales had of lost....

Well. B91212, most Irish think Ryle Nugent is truly dire and only gets the big rugby gigs because he's head of sport at RTE, Hugh Cahill is pretty good, but as regards George Hamilton, a soccer commentator who does occasional rugby games, God preserve us.

Danger here

o0

sad because i expected to see so many Irish on tour now i think only sexton and murray may go. maybe stander too.

Don't be sad, Gwlad. You'll all have a great time over there in New Zealand.

Eddie Jones says....

"If the All Blacks want to turn up to the Aviva Stadium on Saturday and want to play us after Ireland, then we'll consider it,"

"Would we win? After we'd beaten Ireland? Who knows? It would be interesting, wouldn't it?"

beshocked wrote:

Sin é wrote:

beshocked wrote:JP Doyle is one of the worst refs.

Barnes is quality.

Shouldn't use him as a scapegoat for your toothless attack vs Wales.

The so called controversial decisions weren't really controversial - Sexton was preventing quick ball on his line. Henshaw deserved to be penalised.

You think Barnes is quality because he never refs England. Ireland gave away something like 4 penalties to Wales and yet gets yellow carded while wales gave away about 12 penalties.

Doesn't seem like he was particularly biased towards Wales if he penalised them 3 times more.

Let's be honest you'd find a reason to complain about Barnes.

I’d admit that the Henshaw call was a tough one but was technically correct. Sure Ireland perhaps don’t get Barnes doing them many favours but then again he’s not as bad as you think.

I've seen refs put in much more one sided performances than Barnes.

Try being a Saints fan with that lying cheat Barnes reffing!!!!!!!!!!

ebop wrote:Eddie Jones says....

"If the All Blacks want to turn up to the Aviva Stadium on Saturday and want to play us after Ireland, then we'll consider it,"

"Would we win? After we'd beaten Ireland? Who knows? It would be interesting, wouldn't it?"

Good one Ebop. Very well done, sounds exactly like something he would say and all.........

SecretFly wrote:

ebop wrote:Eddie Jones says....

"If the All Blacks want to turn up to the Aviva Stadium on Saturday and want to play us after Ireland, then we'll consider it,"

"Would we win? After we'd beaten Ireland? Who knows? It would be interesting, wouldn't it?"

Good one Ebop.  Very well done, sounds exactly like something he would say and all.........

SecretFly, he actually did say this, in a joking way of course because he's really funny. Was hilarious when he joked about beating Ireland this weekend. Is that hubris or part of the gag?

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11820059

Oh I checked the quote before comment, ebop. I was trying out a double joke in suggesting it was such a clichéd Eddie comment that it just had to be a lampoon.

Ah the double whammy, jokes on me

Or it could be on Eddie when yous pummel them this weekend

It's gonna happen right? Promise me. We can't have Eddie joking around like this as rugby is serious business.

I wish I could promise, ebop.... and I'll talk a reasonably good fight on these threads - but the heart and head says Eddie has produced (or inherited) a pretty strong side and it's all in their court.  If they play like they can, Ireland hasn't enough to withstand the onslaught.  
Joe needs to find four, five or six new regulars in a number of positions - we've gone as far as we can with what we have and the gameplan we play.  We could win against England, but it isn't likely on current form.

England failing to win on Saturday would be in the same bracket as Douvan in the Champion Chase, but if Eddie was really serious about England becoming a RWC contender it is high time he exposed the team to such a learning experience.
That was Sir Clive's genius, he knew that England would never win anything without experiencing the pain of not winning something, his losses were stepping stones to his success.

The Great Aukster wrote:England failing to win on Saturday would be in the same bracket as Douvan in the Champion Chase, but if Eddie was really serious about England becoming a RWC contender it is high time he exposed the team to such a learning experience.
That was Sir Clive's genius, he knew that England would never win anything without experiencing the pain of not winning something, his losses were stepping stones to his success.

Ohh we have had a few painful moments in recent years, (well so we are continuously told) - just not for a while

Not with Eddie though?

brennomac wrote:Well. B91212, most Irish think Ryle Nugent is truly dire and only gets the big rugby gigs because he's head of sport at RTE, Hugh Cahill is pretty good, but as regards George Hamilton, a soccer commentator who does occasional rugby games, God preserve us.  

We don't get any of the build up and half time stuff unless its the BBC, always assumed it was to do with advertising. Neil Francis is the one who comes to mind. Writes an absolute pile of bullplop at times from what I've seen but compared to some colour commentators not as bad. Other than talking the Irish players up too much as mentioned above.

SecretFly wrote:I wish I could promise, ebop.... and I'll talk a reasonably good fight on these threads - but the heart and head says Eddie has produced (or inherited) a pretty strong side and it's all in their court.  If they play like they can, Ireland hasn't enough to withstand the onslaught.  
Joe needs to find four, five or six new regulars in a number of positions - we've gone as far as we can with what we have and the gameplan we play.  We could win against England, but it isn't likely on current form.

Still think you are being a doom and gloom there SecretFly. You deservedly beat the All Blacks remember with basically the same side. I have a horrible feeling you will raise your game once again....

B91212 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I wish I could promise, ebop.... and I'll talk a reasonably good fight on these threads - but the heart and head says Eddie has produced (or inherited) a pretty strong side and it's all in their court.  If they play like they can, Ireland hasn't enough to withstand the onslaught.  
Joe needs to find four, five or six new regulars in a number of positions - we've gone as far as we can with what we have and the gameplan we play.  We could win against England, but it isn't likely on current form.

Still think you are being a doom and gloom there SecretFly. You deservedly beat the All Blacks remember with basically the same side. I have a horrible feeling you will raise your game once again....

Agree. I think the same. Although, it wouldn't be sporting for Ireland to ruin a perfectly good celebration of 19 games in a row and 2 Grand Slams.

Good to see Jared Payne back at fullback.

England need to get their restarts right vs Ireland, in 2015, Ford's restarts were poor and allowed Ireland to clear their lines with ease.

I'd like to see similar tactics to those used against Scotland. Keep the ball away from the Irish back three.

Put as much pressure on Best.

Pressure Marmion.

Have to be prepared for the excessive use of the up and under by Ireland.

I was impressed with the way that Wales in general managed to well marshall Stander. Putting two men on him to tackle. England must do similar.

Wales were picking out Zebo all game with their kicks as well so will be interesting to see if that tactic continues. Good to see you now have more confidence in the team beshocked and are no longer predicting that loss.

Tips for Gold cup Lads?

I hope England look to play off-the-top attacking ball against Ireland as they did against Scotland. The kicking game and our game management will be important to get us in the right areas, but I hope we try to stress their defence and exploit any cracks that appear.

Scotland showed there are tries to be scored against this Ireland side if we get our attacking game right, and if we can get on the board early then we can look to strangle the game.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wales were picking out Zebo all game with their kicks as well so will be interesting to see if that tactic continues. Good to see you now have more confidence in the team beshocked and are no longer predicting that loss.

Which seemed to work ok, though that is the same tactic England used in 2015. As so often is teh case two identical kicks can be either good or bad dependent on the quality of the kick-chase.

no 7 & 1/2 well with Billy starting, a much improved performance vs Scotland, notably from the weaker performers, confidence is higher. Plus England have that bench - replacements scored 4 tries vs Scotland with two try assists from the Vunipola bros - 1 each

Nice to see Billy coming back with a try and an assist. Good from Launchbury to help propel Billy over.

TightHEAD wrote:Tips for Gold cup Lads?

Just soap and water. Dry with a lint free cloth.

KickClap rugby is boring to watch for all.

Tight win for England this weekend, and a big bonus-point win for Wales. That'll be a good weekend for me with my two teams doing well.

The Great Aukster wrote:England failing to win on Saturday would be in the same bracket as Douvan in the Champion Chase, but if Eddie was really serious about England becoming a RWC contender it is high time he exposed the team to such a learning experience.
That was Sir Clive's genius, he knew that England would never win anything without experiencing the pain of not winning something, his losses were stepping stones to his success.

Losing against Wales at the last RWC was pain enough thank you. We don't need anymore of that.

I am very happy to see Payne playing in, what I consider to be, his best position. Payne from full back offers so much more attacking threat and he will finally bring Irelands midfield and wings into the game more on counter attacks.

As much as I like Murray, it is great to see Marmion get a run out. Think he will offer more quick ball than Murray has done and get Ireland more front foot possession. I was pretty upset with Schmidt that he did not replace Murray with Marmion for the remainder of the Wales game after he got injured.

Hendo, well he is simply more of a threat than Toner I feel. Too much emphasis is placed on Toner for the line out but he has not been great there recently and Hendo is not a bad line out operator.

Very worried about the English midfield, especially JJ as I feel that he will give Ringrose a very long day.
I honestly would not start Ford for this game, I would put Farrell at 10 with Teo 12 and JJ 13. I think that would hammer the Irish midfield.

Anyways, happy Paddy's day all, don't get too pished before tomorrow

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wales were picking out Zebo all game with their kicks as well so will be interesting to see if that tactic continues. Good to see you now have more confidence in the team beshocked and are no longer predicting that loss.

More like trying to get the ball to North.

How can we Drop Ford when he is our most destructive defender!