Hurricanes vs Lions, 27th June 2017

Hurricanes v British & Irish Lions
Venue: Westpac Stadium, Wellington
Date: Tuesday, 27 June.
Kick off: 08:35 BST
Live on: Sky Sports 1, from 8am

Lions



1. Joe Marler (ENG)
2. Rory Best (IRE) (Captain)
3. Dan Cole (ENG)
4. Courtney Lawes (ENG)
5. Iain Henderson (IRE)
6. James Haskell (ENG)
7. Justin Tipuric (WAL)
8. CJ Stander (IRE)
9. Greig Laidlaw (SCO)
10. Dan Biggar (WAL)
11. George North (WAL)
12. Robbie Henshaw (IRE)
13. Jonathan Joseph (ENG)
14. Tommy Seymour (SCO)
15. Jack Nowell    (ENG)

16. Kristian Dacey (WAL)
17. Allan Dell (SCO)
18. Tomas Francis (WAL)
19. Cory Hill (WAL)
20. George Kruis (ENG)
21. Gareth Davies (WAL)
22. Finn Russell (SCO)
23. Jared Payne (IRE)

Hurricanes



1. Ben May
2. Ricky Riccitelli
3. Jeffery Toomaga-Allen
4. Mark Abbott
5. Mark Lousi
6. Vaea Fifita
7. Callum Gibbins
8. Brad Shields (Captain)
9. Te Toiroa-Tahuriorangi
10. Otere Black
11. Julian Savea
12. Ngani Laumape
13. Vince Aso
14. Nehe Milner-Skudder
15. Jordie Barrett

16. Leni Apisai
17. Chris Eves
18. Mike Kainga
19. Janes Blackwell
20. Reed Prinsep
21. K Hauiti-Parapara
22. Wes Goosen
23. Cory Jane

Something tells me that the Hurricanes pack is the wrong way round ...

Shields is probably starting at 8, and May, Riccitelli and Toomaga Allen is probably the starting front row

What a backline though!

Ineffable wrote:1. Brad Shields (Captain)
2. Callum Gibbins
3. Vaea Fifita
4. Mark Lousi
5. Mark Abbott
6. Jeffery To'omaga-Allen
7. Ricky Riccitelli
8. Ben May

Bad copy & paste job there, numbering is all wrong

1. Ben May
2. Ricky Riccitelli
3. Jeffery Toomaga-Allen
4. Mark Abbott
5. Mark Lousi
6. Vaea Fifita
7. Callum Gibbins
8. Brad Shields (Captain)

Edit, BamBam beat me to it!

Fixed (Well at least I tried!)

No squad roster I could find actually told me the positions

Anyway, what about that Jack Nowell at 15

Haha, effort is definitely appreciated!

Nowell could make a Mike Brown esque 15 .. whether you'd want that is up to you!

Which of these players could now force their way into the Test team?

Cole is the only one for me.

Surprised Russell isn't starting this one.

Either or Henderson or Lawes have a stormer and surely they must drop either AWJ or Kruis in the match day 23. Both were muscled out of the game.

Imagine that Stander has a shot of making the bench as he would offer impact, personally wouldn't mind seeing 5 forwards on the bench, SOB and Stander as impact for back row.

6 forwards I meant.

SamTheQuin wrote:Either or Henderson or Lawes have a stormer and surely they must drop either AWJ or Kruis in the match day 23. Both were muscled out of the game.

Imagine that Stander has a shot of making the bench as he would offer impact, personally wouldn't mind seeing 5 forwards on the bench, SOB and Stander as impact for back row.

To me, this signals that there will be no meaningful changes to the test squad. AWJ will probably drop to the bench for Itoje as will POM to accommodate Warburton.

Amazed that Biggar is starting, this completely rules him out for the test team as well. Would have been the perfect game for Russell to start.

TightHEAD wrote:Which of these players could now force their way into the Test team?

Cole is the only one for me.

FINN RUSSELL!!!

All the other 10s have been honking all tour. He is the only one playing well!

eirebilly wrote:
To me, this signals that there will be no meaningful changes to the test squad.

Agreed

Gooseberry wrote:

eirebilly wrote:
To me, this signals that there will be no meaningful changes to the test squad.

Agreed

Agree as well. The stuborn and prideful Gatland won't make changes to his test team despite huge names not performing.

Davies, Williams, Watson and George were the only players to emerge from the weekend with anything resembling credit. The rest of the test 23's stock has diminished markedly.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Agree as well. The stuborn and prideful Gatland won't make changes to his test team despite huge names not performing.

Davies, Williams, Watson and George were the only players to emerge from the weekend with anything resembling credit. The rest of the test 23's stock has diminished markedly.

T'eo was good again, as was POM, Sinckler carried well from the bench.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Which of these players could now force their way into the Test team?

Cole is the only one for me.

FINN RUSSELL!!!

All the other 10s have been honking all tour. He is the only one playing well!

He is already booked on a flight out of NZ after the game, like all the other call ups.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

eirebilly wrote:
To me, this signals that there will be no meaningful changes to the test squad.

Agreed

Agree as well. The stuborn and prideful Gatland won't make changes to his test team despite huge names not performing.

Davies, Williams, Watson and George were the only players to emerge from the weekend with anything resembling credit. The rest of the test 23's stock has diminished markedly.

SOB had a decent carrying/tackling game, & Te'o was reasonable.

Only Davies & Williams can say they outplayed their opposite number though

TightHEAD wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Which of these players could now force their way into the Test team?

Cole is the only one for me.

FINN RUSSELL!!!

All the other 10s have been honking all tour. He is the only one playing well!

He is already booked on a flight out of NZ after the game, like all the other call ups.

The question is which of these players COULD force their way, not which of these players SHOULD have a chance of it.

Lions by 23, by the way.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

eirebilly wrote:
To me, this signals that there will be no meaningful changes to the test squad.

Agreed

Agree as well. The stuborn and prideful Gatland won't make changes to his test team despite huge names not performing.

Davies, Williams, Watson and George were the only players to emerge from the weekend with anything resembling credit. The rest of the test 23's stock has diminished markedly.

SOB had a decent carrying/tackling game, & Te'o was reasonable.

Only Davies & Williams can say they outplayed their opposite number though

SOB had a good carrying game, but that's not where we lost the match, he was also in the right place at the right time by tracking the play well to round of the Lions 1st try. However he was absolutely bossed at the breakdown as were our entire pack.

Teo I felt was quite lucky to avoid something more severe for his dangerous tackle on Sonny Bill Williams.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

eirebilly wrote:
To me, this signals that there will be no meaningful changes to the test squad.

Agreed

Agree as well. The stuborn and prideful Gatland won't make changes to his test team despite huge names not performing.

Davies, Williams, Watson and George were the only players to emerge from the weekend with anything resembling credit. The rest of the test 23's stock has diminished markedly.

SOB had a decent carrying/tackling game, & Te'o was reasonable.

Only Davies & Williams can say they outplayed their opposite number though

SOB had a good carrying game, but that's not where we lost the match, he was also in the right place at the right time by tracking the play well to round of the Lions 1st try. However he was absolutely bossed at the breakdown as were our entire pack.

Teo I felt was quite lucky to avoid something more severe for his dangerous tackle on Sonny Bill Williams.

That was penalty only for me. SBW did try and get himself into an offloading position in the tackle which made it look a little worse

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Teo I felt was quite lucky to avoid something more severe for his dangerous tackle on Sonny Bill Williams.

Lol, that was called a rugby tackle, I'll be coaching that as a perfect example of a tackle and laying a marker at the same time.

TightHEAD wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Teo I felt was quite lucky to avoid something more severe for his dangerous tackle on Sonny Bill Williams.

Lol, that was called a rugby tackle, I'll be coaching that as a perfect example of a tackle and laying a marker at the same time.

No.

What Read did to Farrell was a perfect example of a tackle and laying a marker at the same time. If SBW landed almost any other way that would have been a yellow. It was a Penalty in my book, no more, but it wouldn't have taken much for SBW to have landed awkwardly and the penance to have been worse for Teo.

Yeah and that's a problem with the law. If SBW didn't put his arm out it would be a yellow, for the same tackle.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Teo I felt was quite lucky to avoid something more severe for his dangerous tackle on Sonny Bill Williams.

Lol, that was called a rugby tackle, I'll be coaching that as a perfect example of a tackle and laying a marker at the same time.

No.

What Read did to Farrell was a perfect example of a tackle and laying a marker at the same time. If SBW landed almost any other way that would have been a yellow. It was a Penalty in my book, no more, but it wouldn't have taken much for SBW to have landed awkwardly and the penance to have been worse for Teo.

No & Yes

Both tackles were fine. This is Rugby not wendyball.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Teo I felt was quite lucky to avoid something more severe for his dangerous tackle on Sonny Bill Williams.

Lol, that was called a rugby tackle, I'll be coaching that as a perfect example of a tackle and laying a marker at the same time.

No.

What Read did to Farrell was a perfect example of a tackle and laying a marker at the same time. If SBW landed almost any other way that would have been a yellow. It was a Penalty in my book, no more, but it wouldn't have taken much for SBW to have landed awkwardly and the penance to have been worse for Teo.

Did SBW's hips ever go above his shoulders? From memory no. My feel at the time was that if the landing had been bad, then it would have been reviewed and the tackle found to be legal. As it was the landing was fine so Peyper went with his gut feel.

LondonTiger wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Teo I felt was quite lucky to avoid something more severe for his dangerous tackle on Sonny Bill Williams.

Lol, that was called a rugby tackle, I'll be coaching that as a perfect example of a tackle and laying a marker at the same time.

No.

What Read did to Farrell was a perfect example of a tackle and laying a marker at the same time. If SBW landed almost any other way that would have been a yellow. It was a Penalty in my book, no more, but it wouldn't have taken much for SBW to have landed awkwardly and the penance to have been worse for Teo.

Did SBW's hips ever go above his shoulders? From memory no. My feel at the time was that if the landing had been bad, then it would have been reviewed and the tackle found to be legal. As it was the landing was fine so Peyper went with his gut feel.

Yes, yes they did.



I agree it probably wasn't a yellow, but again luck meant it wasn't a yellow, not from Peyper's interpretation which IMO was correct. Teo was lucky SBW rode the tackle a bit.

TightHead this whole macho "it's not wendyball" is all fair and well, but the tackle laws have been introduced to protect players.

LondonTiger wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Teo I felt was quite lucky to avoid something more severe for his dangerous tackle on Sonny Bill Williams.

Lol, that was called a rugby tackle, I'll be coaching that as a perfect example of a tackle and laying a marker at the same time.

No.

What Read did to Farrell was a perfect example of a tackle and laying a marker at the same time. If SBW landed almost any other way that would have been a yellow. It was a Penalty in my book, no more, but it wouldn't have taken much for SBW to have landed awkwardly and the penance to have been worse for Teo.

Did SBW's hips ever go above his shoulders? From memory no. My feel at the time was that if the landing had been bad, then it would have been reviewed and the tackle found to be legal. As it was the landing was fine so Peyper went with his gut feel.

Yes, hips were above his shoulders. Landing was fine because he put his arm out.

Great legal tackle.

Joy to watch and was one of the highlights of the game.

Play touch rugby if you don't like it, Ref was wrong to give a penalty and not one AB reacted to it as they knew it was a fair hit.

If Dan Biggar has another good game tomorrow then surely Gatland must take him into consideration over Farrell.

LordDowlais wrote:If Dan Biggar has another good game tomorrow then surely Gatland must take him into consideration over Farrell.

^ this 100%

Biggar has done more in the Lions Jersey than either Farrell or Sexton. Russell as done more than any of the Lions incumbents.

If Biggar is playing well he should come off at the 50 minute mark and get a crack at the test XV. This will also give Russell half an hour have a chance at showing what he can do.

I thought Farrell had a very disappointing game on Saturday, RR.

He seemed to let his nerves and the atmosphere get the better of him. It's a trait I have seen in him before, in Cardiff when Wales beat England to the 6N title. It's a shame, as I have seen him grab big games by the scruff of the neck, but when it gets that little bit higher, and the pressure is turned up a notch, he wilts.

Biggar was really poor last game so not sure he's going to make waves.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Biggar was really poor last game so not sure he's going to make waves.

Are you sure ?

I thought he had an outstanding game. Also, so did many others. What did you think he did wrong last week ?

LordDowlais wrote:I thought Farrell had a very disappointing game on Saturday, RR.

He seemed to let his nerves and the atmosphere get the better of him. It's a trait I have seen in him before, in Cardiff when Wales beat England to the 6N title. It's a shame, as I have seen him grab big games by the scruff of the neck, but when it gets that little bit higher, and the pressure is turned up a notch, he wilts.

Probably why he struggles to win silverware.

Wrote a bit on the thread as I watched it as I'd seen a couple talk of him and was watching out.

Scottrf wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I thought Farrell had a very disappointing game on Saturday, RR.

He seemed to let his nerves and the atmosphere get the better of him. It's a trait I have seen in him before, in Cardiff when Wales beat England to the 6N title. It's a shame, as I have seen him grab big games by the scruff of the neck, but when it gets that little bit higher, and the pressure is turned up a notch, he wilts.

Probably why he struggles to win silverware.

Do you think he played well on Saturday or has been for most of the tour ?

LordDowlais wrote:I thought Farrell had a very disappointing game on Saturday, RR.

He seemed to let his nerves and the atmosphere get the better of him. It's a trait I have seen in him before, in Cardiff when Wales beat England to the 6N title. It's a shame, as I have seen him grab big games by the scruff of the neck, but when it gets that little bit higher, and the pressure is turned up a notch, he wilts.

Farrell and Sexton were both poor on Saturday - though the real fault lies in the forwards, the ball Farrell got was slow (the Lions were taking around twice as long to clear a ruck as NZ, compounded by slow delivery from Murray)

Biggar's definitely a 10 in the Farrell mold, & has played well on tour. He's another that can get petulant & error prone when things don't go his way though - like vs England in Cardiff this year.

LordDowlais wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I thought Farrell had a very disappointing game on Saturday, RR.

He seemed to let his nerves and the atmosphere get the better of him. It's a trait I have seen in him before, in Cardiff when Wales beat England to the 6N title. It's a shame, as I have seen him grab big games by the scruff of the neck, but when it gets that little bit higher, and the pressure is turned up a notch, he wilts.

Probably why he struggles to win silverware.

Do you think he played well on Saturday or has been for most of the tour ?

I don't think he's on his best form. Our lazy forwards got dominated though.

LordDowlais wrote:I thought Farrell had a very disappointing game on Saturday, RR.

He seemed to let his nerves and the atmosphere get the better of him. It's a trait I have seen in him before, in Cardiff when Wales beat England to the 6N title. It's a shame, as I have seen him grab big games by the scruff of the neck, but when it gets that little bit higher, and the pressure is turned up a notch, he wilts.

That was 2013, he has won a grand slam, a 6 nations title, 2 European cups and 2 Premiership titles in that time.

Stop living in the past, he had a bad game that is true but up until then Sexton and Biggar have looked average at best.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:Biggar's definitely a 10 in the Farrell mold, & has played well on tour. He's another that can get petulant & error prone when things don't go his way though - like vs England in Cardiff this year.

I do not think that Farrell gets petulant, Biggar does, but I do not think Farrell does.

I have seen Farrell wilt on the big occasions though. 2015 WC, 6N deciders, Lions. He is a very good pro at club level, and very good at international when the pressure is not as high as it could be, but when the eyes of the world are on him he does not thrive.

You need a inform No10 playing. Gatland had a choice of three, Farrell, Russell and Ford

Russell is on the bench and is booked on a flight out of NZ after the midweek game and Ford missed out due to prejudice about his size.

Farrell is the only option.

TightHEAD wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I thought Farrell had a very disappointing game on Saturday, RR.

He seemed to let his nerves and the atmosphere get the better of him. It's a trait I have seen in him before, in Cardiff when Wales beat England to the 6N title. It's a shame, as I have seen him grab big games by the scruff of the neck, but when it gets that little bit higher, and the pressure is turned up a notch, he wilts.

That was 2013, he has won a grand slam, a 6 nations title, 2 European cups and 2 Premiership titles in that time.

Stop living in the past, he had a bad game that is true but up until then Sexton and Biggar have looked average at best.

Well, if we are not going on recent performances, then AWJ deserves to be left alone then ?

AWJ has been poor all season and has continued his form on Tour.

Looking back to remind myself on the parts of the game ftom Biggar which disappointed me. On 20 min he threw a duff pass when we're in a good attacking position. Kicks an attempted grubber straight out. Had a good half break leading to try. High swinging arm before half time fortunate the player slips and we only get a pen against us. Improved the 2nd half where he just did one silly knock on on 62 min.

Biggar tries hard and I like that, but he is not the answer to the Lions problems for the next test.

I think  Farrell has been the best 10 by some distance on this tour. Unfortunately in the first test he was getting slow ball from the pack and Murray,  thus making quick plays almost impossible for the midfield. i dont think Biggar would be any better at coping with the AB's defence around the ball and in all likelihood would throw his toys out of the pram sooner rather than later when things were going against him. Unless Biggar does a Heaslip and get injured in the warm up (which led to POM's great game against England) there is no way that Russell will need to peel his arse off a warm bench for tomorrow's game - Gatland is going to go down fighting, or whimpering,  with the players he selected, and no one else, unless injury forces his hand.

TightHEAD wrote:You need a inform No10 playing. Gatland had a choice of three, Farrell, Russell and Ford

Russell is on the bench and is booked on a flight out of NZ after the midweek game and Ford missed out due to prejudice about his size.

Farrell is the only option.

So if he plays well, it's toodles? Gimmie a break, does Gatland want to win a test or not? If he plays well he deserves a chance at 10 or as a sub for the test.

Yep, that's why Gatland didn't call up real quality players

sensisball wrote:I think Farrell has been the best 10 by some distance on this tour.

If you stopped and just used the bits in bold, then I could debate it with you, but the rest of that sentence is very inaccurate to say the least.

IMO, Farrell has had a very poor tour, missing easy kicks in front of the posts, not getting the backs moving, and no amount of crap fowards are to blame for all that.

Sexton started of the tour having a mare, but he has steadily started to turn things around.

Biggar has been consistently better than both of them though, and another strong outing tomorrow, and Farrell needs to start sweating over his place in Saturdays squad.

Unless Biggar picks up a serious injury and Sexton or Farrell break an ankle getting out of a shower there is no chance of Russell making the bench. To be fair to Gatland, not something i am inclined to do, it would be a mark of utter desperation on his part to pick a player who has only arrived for injury cover to make the test team 23.

It would be a clear admission that his non-selection of Russell was a mistake, and as we are going to lose anyway on Saturday, what would be the benefit to Gatland of doing it?

I can only see the AB's being better than last week. They made a few unforced errors and i expect that error count to reduce making more tries the likely outcome, regardless of who plays at 10 for the Lions

LordDowlais wrote:

sensisball wrote:I think  Farrell has been the best 10 by some distance on this tour.

If you stopped and just used the bits in bold, then I could debate it with you,

That's Rude dude, why won't you debate it with him?