NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 1 July

by **George Carlin** Wed 28 Jun 2017, 7:45 am

First topic message reminder :

NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 1 July - Page 3 All_bl10

NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 1 July - Page 3 Lions_12

NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS
1 July 2017
KO: 19:35 NZST (8.35am BST)
WESTPAC Wellington Regional Stadium, Wellington

Live on Sky Sports HD

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
ARs: [tbc]
TMO: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

39 Played 39
30 Won 6
3 Drawn 3
6 Lost 30
664 Points 360

B. Recent Form

24 June 2017
Eden Park, Auckland
30 – 15 to New Zealand

9 July 2005
Eden Park, Auckland
38 – 19 to New Zealand

2 July 2005
Westpac Stadium, Wellington
48 – 18 to New Zealand

25 June 2005
Lancaster Park, Christchurch
21 – 3 to New Zealand

3 July 1993
Eden Park, Auckland
30 – 13 to New Zealand

26 June 1993
Athletic Park, Wellington
7 – 20 to British & Irish Lions

12 June 1993
Lancaster Park, Christchurch
20 – 18 to New Zealand

16 July 1983
Eden Park, Auckland
38 – 6 to New Zealand

2 July 1983
Carisbrook, Dunedin
15 – 8 to New Zealand

18 June 1983
Athletic Park (Wellington), Wellington
9 – 0 to New Zealand

4 June 1983
Lancaster Park, Christchurch
16 – 12 to New Zealand

C. TEAMS:

NEW ZEALAND
NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 1 July - Page 3 Kirean10

NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 1 July - Page 3 Kirean10

[tbc]

BRITISH & IRISH LIONS
NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 1 July - Page 3 Muppet10

[tbc]

by compelling and rich Thu 29 Jun 2017, 3:05 am

better bench options at least is about the only positive. teo very unlucky, been probably the best centre on tour

seems like total panic this selection, if he wanted a sexton and farrell partnership why the hell has he not put them in a few warm up games to get used to playing with each other.

be very surprised if warburton can make a impact, none nothing on tour so far.

by kingelderfield Thu 29 Jun 2017, 3:53 am

Its all now down to the players, only IF they believe they are the history makers and IF they have the ability to produce the result.

The odds against a Lions win must be getting longer and longer now.

by mikey_dragon Thu 29 Jun 2017, 4:57 am

Yeah quite a few surprises there. I'm not sure he knows what he's doing at this stage.

by mikey_dragon Thu 29 Jun 2017, 5:00 am

compelling and rich wrote:better bench options at least is about the only positive. teo very unlucky, been probably the best centre on tour.

Riiiiggghhtttt.

by eirebilly Thu 29 Jun 2017, 6:02 am

I have been giving Gatland the benefit of the doubt the whole tour but this selection is very poor as far as I am concerned. You either start Sexton or Farrell at 10, if either do not start at 10 then they should not be in the match day 23 with Biggar on the bench.

Te'o has been very good this tour so I think he is hard done by in loosing his position to accommodate Farrell at 12.
Hard on POM as I thought he was very good in the first test but Warburton wont let anyone down.

How AWJ retains his starting position is a mystery to me, he simply has not done anything that proves he is a test starter. Was certain it would be Itoje and Lawes/Henderson starting (either of the second two on the bench).

by No 7&1/2 Thu 29 Jun 2017, 6:14 am

Big tick with Sexton and Farrell on the pith together. Should gt out backs some better possession now. Jones and Warburton picked as his favourites and past achievement.

by RuggerRadge2611 Thu 29 Jun 2017, 6:56 am

There really is nothing more to say.

by R!skysports Thu 29 Jun 2017, 6:59 am

Seems gatland is reverting to form.

His buddies on the pitch (regardless of form). panic selection of sexton and Farrell together when untested

The best centre dropped to bench and the best performing 10 not selected

The worst performing second row starting again

Only reason I expect north was not dropped in is he is injured

They had better win and this is becoming 2005 all over again

Depressing but predictable

by Scottrf Thu 29 Jun 2017, 7:17 am

Good to see Nowell on the bench. Watched the first half of the Hurricanes game and he was great in defence.

The starters, well, we've covered this.

by Hammersmith harrier Thu 29 Jun 2017, 7:50 am

It's actually a worse team than the first test and well the obvious selection mess up is unjustifiable.

by **RDW** Thu 29 Jun 2017, 7:56 am

Stander on the bench is positive (although harsh on PoM) but there's no way he's going to be 100% fit - he's been flogged this tour and was out on his feet on Tuesday. If only there was some way in which a player could be replaced during a game to give them a rest...

by Guest Thu 29 Jun 2017, 8:04 am

A take on suspected foul play

"We've got citing commissioners now and if they don't see it, just move on," Hansen said.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/94236967/the-all-blacks-and-lions-camps-dismiss-talk-of-skulduggery-and-friction

by WELL-PAST-IT Thu 29 Jun 2017, 8:05 am

The two players least deserving of selection in the whole squad picked, both have been injured and have not fully recovered and one is 2 years past his best.

Warburg, you can make a strong case for when fully fit, but not at the moment and Wyn Jones is the worst performing lock on tour, cannot get past 50 minutes and is ineffectual for that time. What happens if Itoje gets injured, AWJ cannot play for 80 mins.

I am not sure about the Sexton Farrell partnership, it works with Ford but Sexton is a completely different sort of player and lacks Ford's playmaking abilities.

Bench is better for impact and balance.

Garland has once again reverted to who I know has produced the goods for me in the past rather than who can do it for me on Saturday. If a national coach selected like this he would be out on his ear pretty quickly. He does not select like this for Wales.

by screamingaddabs Thu 29 Jun 2017, 8:12 am

Put it this way, if Gatland picked the NZ time (ok stop laughing!) Would he have the balls to drop Savea or would he be selected "on past form". He'd be calling up Richie and begging for DC to come back.

The all blacks say if you're good enough you're old and experienced enough. With the lions you simply HAVE to pick solely on form. He hasn't done that.

I really hope the lions win for the sake of the series, and at least the bench looks better. One of AWJ or Warb is forgivable but both is preposterous when you have tiperic, Lawes and Henderson (not to mention Gray and Launchbury...)

by TightHEAD Thu 29 Jun 2017, 8:13 am

Ben Teo must be pissed off.

There really is nothing to say about Warbs and AWJ being selected.

Sexton and Farrell look good together against weak teams.

Gatland is a blooming fool.

AB to win by 30+

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Thu 29 Jun 2017, 8:15 am

ebop wrote:A take on suspected foul play

"We've got citing commissioners now and if they don't see it, just move on," Hansen said.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/94236967/the-all-blacks-and-lions-camps-dismiss-talk-of-skulduggery-and-friction

Meanwhile the NZ media are highlighting a couple of Vunipola incidents* from the 1st test Whistle

*an off the ball hit on ALB and a squirrel grab on Franks' family jewels in one scrum. Nothing to write home about

by cb Thu 29 Jun 2017, 8:24 am

Amongst other things this selection seems to weaken the line-out. Kruis is more of a mainstream jumper than Itoje and POM is good in the line-out and better than Warburton. It would be a worry if the line-out came under pressure as last week it went OK except for one throw (why bring a new hooker on at such a critical time?).

by yappysnap Thu 29 Jun 2017, 8:25 am

Tbh we were more then likely going to lose either way. At least with these selections we can always dream about what could have been. Silver linings...

by Gooseberry Thu 29 Jun 2017, 8:26 am

Mixed bag again.

Front row .. is there really nothing that could be done?

Second row ..the controversy...AWJ starting will continue to baffle everyone, espeically with Warburton in to take the " senior leader" role. Harsh on Kruis to take the fall weak performance or not. Lawes should have been in the 23 from the start so its good to see him in some capacity, hes been at his best unlike so many others on this tour. The concern of course is that hes bust from being ragged silly on the wekeend game and wont have the impact he might otherwise have had.

Back row ... Warburton has been picked on type and pedigree, and as the preferred capatin. Not on his current form. Something had to give and this seemed pretty ineviatbel ...but the " what about Moriarty?" argument has been done to death. As a way of removing the only excuse not to drop AWJ bringing in Warbusrton was justifiable. As it is it seems limp. POMs removal is a reflection on his captaincy and the overall failure of the pack than his own ability, and harsh to see him kicked out of the squad altogether ( as per Kruis) but not massivley controversial.

Half backs...
Yeah again a mixed bag. Putting Sexton and Murry toegther ius understandbale, if nothing else than to confuse the All Blacks as to which one of them they are suppossed ot be targetting. The familiar combination and increased creativity trades off against it being an even bigger target for running at or through. Biggar might be a bit dissapointed but uinles Webb was going to start his chances were very slim and Russell was only an option to the most blue eyed Scotlanders.

Centers ... Farrell at 12 Im really not convinced by. The biggest issues that he carries no running threat, and again will be a massive target. I understand the desire for a change and England do make it wiork, but the two times NH sides have beaten the all blacks it was with a hard running inside center not a second playmaker. What concerns me here as well is this isnt how the Lions have been playing in the warm ups and it signals a desperation switch (Ok it was tried for part of a game and maybe theyve been doing this a lot in training but still its very much plan B). At least he isnt being complacent. I wouldnt have had great issue with Farrell being benched and Teo retained.
13 ...Davies. Sigh. Is that the best we have? Yes. Hardly a ringing endorment but I cant see where the change would come other than putting Teo there. As it is hes pretty much garunteed 80 minutes.

Outside backs ... No changes is fair enough. The suspicion he woudl go for North hasnt been seen through and of course he would always slight the Scots bty ignoring Seymours brilliant solo effort to entirely win all the games so far and score all the tries. If they can get some decent ball this is a very strong unit with bags of pace and all round footballing skills...its a pity the All Blacks wont be kicking to them much. No revolving doors either is good.

Bench ... Again front row ..meh. OK noones really put their hand up but it seems stale and masks the issues there. Lawes I mentioned already I beleive should have been in the 23 for the first test. Stander too Im happy to see in, if only because he offers cover at 8. Teo gives options in the centers and allows the switch to made at fly half. Webb over Laidlaw again is clearly done to annoy the Scotts but not massively controversial to those of us who inhabit less paranoid parts of the world. Nowell in is a bit of a curveball ..and almost seems designed to deflect criticism of him favouring his buddies. Not picking Halfpenny is bold, and gives 4 pretty similar outside backs any of whom can play FB in a pinch.
Overall the bench is stacked with impact players and plenty of bustle. Theres loads of options for changing things around.

But the overwhelming feeling has to be " is this the best we can do?" Minus AWJ it quite possibly is.

All blacks by 16

by **LondonTiger** Thu 29 Jun 2017, 8:31 am

Extracts from the selection meeting wrote:Gatland:Ok guys, thanks for coming. Let me outline our thoughts. We have a Frecnch ref this week, so we know what we are going to get. We all agreed that we need to dominate the set-piece, show huge physicality at the breakdown and contact situations, control possession and offer serious running threat.
Rest: Yes boss.
Gatland: So lets start up front, Wiggy?
Rowntree: OK boss. So they expect us to make changes up front and bolster the scrum.
Gatland: Of course, that makes sense.
Rowntree: Ah but I have a cunning plan. We make no changes. We keep our worst scrummaging prop in the team to confuse the kiwis. They will be so unsure of what we plan we can get the upper hand.
Jenkins: (quietly) too busy laughing more like
Gatland:Ok, Wiggy thanks. Steve what about the rest of the pack.
Borthwick: Right folks, I know that Alun has been off colour, but we need him. He will come good, after all he is just like me (though not as good of course). However to counterbalance him we need the power of Maro alongside. Maybe Henderson to 6 and Courtney on the bench?
Farrell: No way, we selected a tour captain, then replaced him with someone else - it is Warbs or Petey at 6.
Borthwick: Really? I want power
Howley: I agree with you both, Alun and Warbs to start yes?
All: Ok.
Gatland: And the bench? Peter O with Lawes or Cruise-Control?
Borthwick: Lawes yes, how about CJ - real oomph.
Gatland: WTF!!!! You told me he would never play in the tests. That is why we did not replace Ross and beasted that little Saffer b*******
Borthwick: Sorry Boss, we need him
Gatland: Hmm, ok. Faz, defensive tactics
Farrell:We have to keep SBW quiet, and we have to defend the 10 channel against their big runners.
Gatland: so we stick with Owen and Ben?
Farrell: No boss, that is what they will expect. We will instead bring Jonny in and switch Junior to 12.
Gatland: Hmm. How would that work offensively Howler?
Howley: Great boss. Yeah, like super great. Yeah like, they have not played together, but yeah like will be great.
Gatland: Final call. Leigh still has a headache so I thought Seymour looked good yesterday.
Rest: Good idea boss, and may keep the Scots off our backs.
Irvine: Lads, I appreciate the gesture, but we need to keep the sponsors happy - and we agreed to a minimum number of Scrum Cap wearers in each squad.
Gatland: Nowell it is then.
Sound of vomiting can be heard just off mic
Gatland: You OK Jenks
Jenkins: Fine boss.
Gatland: I assume we continue kicking all possession away?
More vomiting sounds
Gatland: Well guys, not the team i would select, but this is a democracy. Lets make the Lions Great AGAIN!!! And you better hope there is no recording of this discussion

Tape hisses

by englandglory4ever Thu 29 Jun 2017, 8:36 am

Did anybody seriously think that a barbarian side could go to NZ and beat the best side in the world in their own back yard? Think about it.

by Gooseberry Thu 29 Jun 2017, 8:40 am

englandglory4ever wrote:Did anybody seriously think that a barbarian side could go to NZ and beat the best side in the world in their own back yard? Think about it.

Well no Englands back yard isnt in NZ so the Barabrians couldnt go there and do that.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 29 Jun 2017, 8:55 am

Alun Wyn Jones! Laugh

Anyway, I think it is incredibly harsh to drop POM. I don't get the criticism of him in the first test, we got pounded after he went off. I know that may have happened anyway, but POM was defending in the wider channels (as he does for Ireland) which means he makes a lot of tackles against SH teams. He was also very important in ruck efficiency, and our problems at the breakdown were little to do with him, in my opinion.

Either way, the line-out is going to be significantly weaker. No real line-out forwards in the back row, two 6 foot 5 locks.

by TightHEAD Thu 29 Jun 2017, 8:56 am

I keep looking at that starting XV and a voice in my head is going WTF.........WTF........WTF.........

by LordDowlais Thu 29 Jun 2017, 8:58 am

The biggest joke about this selection is Farrell at 12. How much influence does daddy have here ?

Also, do not get me started with Jamie George starting he should not even be in the match day squad.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 29 Jun 2017, 8:59 am

Maybe daddy should have been more forceful in getting gatland to assess all his options earlier that's true.

by Scottrf Thu 29 Jun 2017, 8:59 am

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Alun Wyn Jones!

Anyway, I think it is incredibly harsh to drop POM. I don't get the criticism of him in the first test, we got pounded after he went off. I know that may have happened anyway, but POM was defending in the wider channels (as he does for Ireland) which means he makes a lot of tackles against SH teams. He was also very important in ruck efficiency, and our problems at the breakdown were little to do with him, in my opinion.

Either way, the line-out is going to be significantly weaker. No real line-out forwards in the back row, two 6 foot 5 locks.

SOB has been better at the breakdown and it's an area we desperately need to improve. So why I think POM has been good, I can see why he was dropped.

Tipuric vs Warbs is another matter especially considering we are weaker in the lineout.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 29 Jun 2017, 8:59 am

LordDowlais wrote:The biggest joke about this selection is Farrell at 12. How much influence does daddy have here ?

Also, do not get me started with Jamie George starting he should not even be in the match day squad.

Strange. How many games has he won there with England? How many titles has he won in general over the past few years?

by Hammersmith harrier Thu 29 Jun 2017, 9:00 am

LordDowlais wrote:The biggest joke about this selection is Farrell at 12. How much influence does daddy have here ?

Also, do not get me started with Jamie George starting he should not even be in the match day squad.

You're so anti English censored

by kingelderfield Thu 29 Jun 2017, 9:01 am

The only way I've been able to comes to terms with this tour is to perceive it as a wonderful romantic folly, a cross between Don Quixote and the charge of the Light Brigade. Sadly that vale of delusion is now wearing thin and reality is drawing close by. I'm hanging on by my fingers tips but for now the dream is still alive!

Just a thought as we enter the 11th month of the season. How many of saturday's squad will have played in each of those 10 preceding months and what will be the effect on them come the new season in 8/9 weeks time?

by **LondonTiger** Thu 29 Jun 2017, 9:10 am

kingelderfield wrote:Just a thought as we enter the 11th month of the season. How many of saturday's squad will have played in each of those 10 preceding months and what will be the effect on them come the new season in 8/9 weeks time?

Jamie George:

June 17 - 4 games
May 17 - 3
April 17 - 5
March 17 - 3
Feb 17 - 3
Jan 17 - 4
Dec 16 - 4
Nov 16 - 3
Oct 16 - 4
Sept 16 - 5

Season started on September 3rd, likely to end on July 8th covering 40 matches. Now I admit he has spent a number coming on from the bench, but that is still ridiculous - and I am sure will be similar for others.

by Hood83 Thu 29 Jun 2017, 9:12 am

Gooseberry wrote:Mixed bag again.

Front row .. is there really nothing that could be done?

Second row ..the controversy...AWJ starting will continue to baffle everyone, espeically with Warburton in to take the " senior leader" role. Harsh on Kruis to take the fall weak performance or not. Lawes should have been in the 23 from the start so its good to see him in some capacity, hes been at his best unlike so many others on this tour. The concern of course is that hes bust from being ragged silly on the wekeend game and wont have the impact he might otherwise have had.

Back row ... Warburton has been picked on type and pedigree, and as the preferred capatin. Not on his current form. Something had to give and this seemed pretty ineviatbel ...but the " what about Moriarty?" argument has been done to death. As a way of removing the only excuse not to drop AWJ bringing in Warbusrton was justifiable. As it is it seems limp. POMs removal is a reflection on his captaincy and the overall failure of the pack than his own ability, and harsh to see him kicked out of the squad altogether ( as per Kruis) but not massivley controversial.

Half backs...
Yeah again a mixed bag. Putting Sexton and Murry toegther ius understandbale, if nothing else than to confuse the All Blacks as to which one of them they are suppossed ot be targetting. The familiar combination and increased creativity trades off against it being an even bigger target for running at or through. Biggar might be a bit dissapointed but uinles Webb was going to start his chances were very slim and Russell was only an option to the most blue eyed Scotlanders.

Centers ... Farrell at 12 Im really not convinced by. The biggest issues that he carries no running threat, and again will be a massive target. I understand the desire for a change and England do make it wiork, but the two times NH sides have beaten the all blacks it was with a hard running inside center not a second playmaker. What concerns me here as well is this isnt how the Lions have been playing in the warm ups and it signals a desperation switch (Ok it was tried for part of a game and maybe theyve been doing this a lot in training but still its very much plan B). At least he isnt being complacent. I wouldnt have had great issue with Farrell being benched and Teo retained.
13 ...Davies. Sigh. Is that the best we have? Yes. Hardly a ringing endorment but I cant see where the change would come other than putting Teo there. As it is hes pretty much garunteed 80 minutes.

Outside backs ... No changes is fair enough. The suspicion he woudl go for North hasnt been seen through and of course he would always slight the Scots bty ignoring Seymours brilliant solo effort to entirely win all the games so far and score all the tries. If they can get some decent ball this is a very strong unit with bags of pace and all round footballing skills...its a pity the All Blacks wont be kicking to them much. No revolving doors either is good.

Bench ... Again front row ..meh. OK noones really put their hand up but it seems stale and masks the issues there. Lawes I mentioned already I beleive should have been in the 23 for the first test. Stander too Im happy to see in, if only because he offers cover at 8. Teo gives options in the centers and allows the switch to made at fly half. Webb over Laidlaw again is clearly done to annoy the Scotts but not massively controversial to those of us who inhabit less paranoid parts of the world. Nowell in is a bit of a curveball ..and almost seems designed to deflect criticism of him favouring his buddies. Not picking Halfpenny is bold, and gives 4 pretty similar outside backs any of whom can play FB in a pinch.
Overall the bench is stacked with impact players and plenty of bustle. Theres loads of options for changing things around.

But the overwhelming feeling has to be " is this the best we can do?" Minus AWJ it quite possibly is.

All blacks by 16

Pretty much all this, though a little harsh on Davies who's been decent. I don't get the Sexton/Farrell move, I think if you play Sexton he needs to feel really settled or he starts trying too much. Farrell's defence is fine but SBW will run over him or at least make yards that he wouldn't against Teo. I'd have started Farrell or Sexton, not both.

Don't get Warburton pick. Great player when fit and on form, but he's not. I think Tipuric has moved ahead of him. If you want to stop them on the gain line and "win collisions" then you'd be better off with Stander at 6, but he's been flogged. Itoje/AWJ seems v light. The former isn't a big carrier or tackler particularly, the latter has about 20 minutes in him at best.

Ugh, none of it looks good.

by Scottrf Thu 29 Jun 2017, 9:13 am

He probably gets an average of about 40 minutes though ~50-55 for Sarries, 25 for England.

I don't believe that's too taxing on him to be honest.

by LordDowlais Thu 29 Jun 2017, 9:14 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The biggest joke about this selection is Farrell at 12. How much influence does daddy have here ?

Also, do not get me started with Jamie George starting he should not even be in the match day squad.

You're so anti English

No I'm not. There are better players than Jamie George on tour, and Farrell has been the worst flyhalf on tour yet still get's selected, even when there is a better player replacing him at flyhalf, they manage to find another position for him.

by Scottrf Thu 29 Jun 2017, 9:17 am

I don't see much between the hookers to be honest. Wouldn't argue much whoever is picked there.

by TightHEAD Thu 29 Jun 2017, 9:20 am

I feel like giving up and flying home.

Clearly Gatland and his disciples had split the squad into Test players and Midweek guys before the tour started.

How can a player put in a performance like Henderson did and not make the bench for the Test team, yet a knackered Donkey slated by past greats of the game gets a starting spot.

The Lions are already facing a battle to stay in existence with the Clubs less than impressed that their players are being treated like meat on these tours, yet Gatland the Kiwi fool is hell bent on destroying the spirit of the Lions to fulfill his own ambition and to have a couple of dear Welsh friends beat the All Blacks.

Can't even see this one being close for 50mins.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 29 Jun 2017, 9:31 am

Farrell has been the best fly half on tour. But he has the variability yo plat at inside centre and should help our attack. Midfield looks more balanced now.

by BamBam Thu 29 Jun 2017, 9:36 am

Can't imagine "Daddy" (interesting that's how Bluster refers to international rugby coaches) would have wanted a past it has been in the second row ruining his blitz defence, so probably not that much influence

by **rodders** Thu 29 Jun 2017, 9:37 am

Well there we go Gats as predictable as clockwork. He scapegoats an Irishman and a couple of English and brings more Welsh in.

Reminds me of the time he dropped BOD because Jon Davies missed a tackle.

AWJ and Warbs shouldn't be in the 23.

Lawes should have started with Henderson on the bench.

I'd have used the same backrow, dropped Warburton and gone for Tipuric on the bench.

Two outside backs on the bench is idiotic. It's not inconceivable that we could lose both Sexton and Farrell during the game, especially with the HIA rules.

by geoff999rugby Thu 29 Jun 2017, 9:37 am

Too little too late

Ignoring some sub standard performances and makes a lie of form being a factor.

Henderson has been outstanding and doesn't make the bench.
AWJ has been inferior to both him and Lawes.

Sexton and Farrell is blind panic and a mistake.

AB by a bigger margin than last time

by Gooseberry Thu 29 Jun 2017, 9:42 am

LondonTiger wrote:
kingelderfield wrote:Just a thought as we enter the 11th month of the season. How many of saturday's squad will have played in each of those 10 preceding months and what will be the effect on them come the new season in 8/9 weeks time?

Jamie George:

June 17 - 4 games
May 17 - 3
April 17 - 5
March 17 - 3
Feb 17 - 3
Jan 17 - 4
Dec 16 - 4
Nov 16 - 3
Oct 16 - 4
Sept 16 - 5

Season started on September 3rd, likely to end on July 8th covering 40 matches. Now I admit he has spent a number coming on from the bench, but that is still ridiculous - and I am sure will be similar for others.

9 for his club were off the bench, plus 9 tests and lets say all 3 lions tests from the bench. Thats a total of 19 actual starts and 21 from the bench ...less excessive than 40 games sounds.

The EPS agreement includes a number of thinsg to manage workloads. Players who pass a threshold of minutes in the AIs are given a mandatory rest week over Christmas. Theres also a mandatory 10 week rest period over the summer ...which I assume includes the Lions series. So none of the England EPS players will be available till mid september for their clubs.

They are limited to 32 full matches a season (or minutes equivelant). If we assume George has played 25 minutes in each of his replacement games that still only amounts to about 27 full games, well below the threshold. The 2015/16 season EPS players played an equivelant of 23 full matches on average. (What this perhaps shows is that the caps too high...but at least the principle is being followed). That figure is of course is skewed by injuries.

by marty2086 Thu 29 Jun 2017, 9:42 am

geoff999rugby wrote:Too little too late

Ignoring some sub standard performances and makes a lie of form being a factor.

Henderson has been outstanding and doesn't make the bench.
AWJ has been inferior to both him and Lawes.

Sexton and Farrell is blind panic and a mistake.

AB by a bigger margin than last time

AWJ has been outperformed by every player who has taken the field this tour, he's been awful and offered nothing

Henderson was never getting in after been flogged on Tuesday

The fact he has dropped one of the Lions best players in Te'o shows how little form matters

by Pete330v2 Thu 29 Jun 2017, 9:43 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The biggest joke about this selection is Farrell at 12. How much influence does daddy have here ?

Also, do not get me started with Jamie George starting he should not even be in the match day squad.

You're so anti English

No I'm not. There are better players than Jamie George on tour, and Farrell has been the worst flyhalf on tour yet still get's selected, even when there is a better player replacing him at flyhalf, they manage to find another position for him.

You're absolutely right LD. Best is the better scrummager and acts as an extra flanker to shore up the breakdown, something that's badly needed. Unfortunately Gatland created his own excuses by thrashing Besty for 80 minutes in the meaningless mid-week game.
Farrell must be there to lull the ABs into a false sense of security. They are going to target the hell out of the 9 to 12 area (I can't use the word channel for that amount of space they have available to target) and perhaps that's how Gatland wants to play it to confuse the home side. It won't work!

It's a head scratcher alright but as I said earlier, Gatland had created his main excuses on Tuesday. I could waffle on but I've bored myself now.

by robbo277 Thu 29 Jun 2017, 9:45 am

This is close to the team I would have picked before the tour started. I'd have probably had Stander instead of O'Brien, Joseph instead of Davies and North ahead of Daly, but O'Brien, Davies and Daly went well last week and North is obviously out. However:

Alun-Wyn Jones and Warburton haven't hit the form they would have liked.
Sexton and Farrell haven't had enough time together in the warm-ups (can't speak for whether they've trained together much)
Biggar's form deserves a mention at 10

I think brining in 2 of Lawes, Henderson and Stander for the two Welsh boys up front would improve us. Maybe Jones can roll back the years or Warburton can turn up for the big occasion, but there's nothing to suggest they can other than blind faith - and that's not enough for me.

Tipuric should be up onto the bench and really pushing O'Brien hard for a spot.

Sexton and Farrell is a gamble. Every starting team has lined up with a big guy at 12, he's not once tried the two distributors. How will Davies and the outside backs - who will be used to trailing Te'o and Henshaw for offloads - adapt? How will the two guys link up? Will they always be clear who is at first receiver and who is calling the moves?

Biggar can count himself unlucky to have no involvement whatsoever in the first two tests. He could have been considered at 10 with Farrell at 12, or even at 12 with Sexton at 10.

If our plan was always to go with two play-makers, then we could have called up an extra 10 in place of Payne to give us 4 options at 10/12 (Sexton, Biggar, Farrell + 1), two options at 13 (Davies and Joseph) and two options at 22 as the impact 12 (Te'o and Henshaw), with Daly and North as emergency centre cover. We could have then trialled different combinations to get the best 10/12 partnership.

by BamBam Thu 29 Jun 2017, 9:47 am

I actually think I would have rather seen Cory Hill get the start at second row than Alun Wyn Jones

Probably frakin schit would have been better than definitely frakin schit

by chris_501 Thu 29 Jun 2017, 9:49 am

I like the look of the midfield. I agree that Teo has played well, his defence has been strong and he's made line breaks but I'm not sure how many have led to tries. Farrell's extra ability to pass players into gaps could make the difference.

Gatland wanted to give this 10,12 13 a bit more of a go against the Maoris, but unfortunately Farrell was injured. Hopefully the time spent in training has been successful.

Warburton has been brought in to try and slow down the AB's ball, which was the killer last Saturday, so although he's not on top form, he's still very good at being a nuisance there. I look forward to him and O'Brien working together.

With regards to line outs, both Warburton and Faletau are options (albeit not as strong as Kruis and O'Mahoney) so hopefully we can still win enough clean ball.

Nowell will add some impact off the bench, as will Lawes, Webb and Stander.

Regardless of the selection, all 23 will have to play close to perfect matches, take chances and cut out errors to win.

by **RDW** Thu 29 Jun 2017, 9:50 am

North and Henshaw are heading home injured.

by LordDowlais Thu 29 Jun 2017, 9:55 am

BamBam wrote:Can't imagine "Daddy" (interesting that's how Bluster refers to international rugby coaches) would have wanted a past it has been in the second row ruining his blitz defence, so probably not that much influence

I would not have picked AWJ. So why you are using that as a stick to beat me with is your issue.

Now, daddy picking his blue eyed boy, that is something we can talk about.

Don't worry son, you might not be doing to well at your favoured position, but daddy will sort something out for you. Rolling Eyes

by robbo277 Thu 29 Jun 2017, 9:56 am

Gooseberry wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
kingelderfield wrote:Just a thought as we enter the 11th month of the season. How many of saturday's squad will have played in each of those 10 preceding months and what will be the effect on them come the new season in 8/9 weeks time?

Jamie George:

June 17 - 4 games
May 17 - 3
April 17 - 5
March 17 - 3
Feb 17 - 3
Jan 17 - 4
Dec 16 - 4
Nov 16 - 3
Oct 16 - 4
Sept 16 - 5

Season started on September 3rd, likely to end on July 8th covering 40 matches. Now I admit he has spent a number coming on from the bench, but that is still ridiculous - and I am sure will be similar for others.

9 for his club were off the bench, plus 9 tests and lets say all 3 lions tests from the bench. Thats a total of 19 actual starts and 21 from the bench ...less excessive than 40 games sounds.

The EPS agreement includes a number of thinsg to manage workloads. Players who pass a threshold of minutes in the AIs are given a mandatory rest week over Christmas. Theres also a mandatory 10 week rest period over the summer ...which I assume includes the Lions series. So none of the England EPS players will be available till mid september for their clubs.

They are limited to 32 full matches a season (or minutes equivelant). If we assume George has played 25 minutes in each of his replacement games that still only amounts to about 27 full games, well below the threshold. The 2015/16 season EPS players played an equivelant of 23 full matches on average. (What this perhaps shows is that the caps too high...but at least the principle is being followed). That figure is of course is skewed by injuries.

The minutes thing shouldn't work like that. Playing 50 minutes one week and 30 minutes the next is more taxing (both mentally and physically) than playing 80 minutes one week and sitting in the stands the next.

All your training is to peak on the game day, you warm up, you get yourself in the zone. All this is the same effort whether you start or bench.

Mentally, playing 40 games must be knackering, even if you only play 40 minutes a game. Especially with the season how it is, you want to peak for the Autumn series, the Six Nations, the close of the club season, then raise yourself to go again for a Lions tour?

George played a Grand Slam game, 3 Champions Cup knock-out games and a Premiership semi-final in the 3 months leading up to tour, before embarking on a punishing tour schedule where he's had to prove himself again. Would not be surprised if he's flagging a little.

by TightHEAD Thu 29 Jun 2017, 10:00 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:North and Henshaw are heading home injured.

Lucky them.

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