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South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July

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Post by George Carlin Sat 17 Jul 2021, 8:00 pm

South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July  A_10                  South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July  Lions_10                
SOUTH AFRICA BRITISH & IRISH LIONS
Saturday 24 July
KO: 18:00 SAST / 17:00 UK / 20:00 Dubai  Very Happy
Cape Town Stadium (Newlands), Cape Town
Sky Sports Main Event

Referee: Nic Berry (Australia)
Assistant Referees: Ben O’Keeffe, Mathieu Raynal
TMO: Marius Bloody Jonker of all people

TEAMS:

SOUTH AFRICA:
15 – Willie le Roux (Toyota Verblitz) – 62 caps, 60 pts (12t)
14 – Cheslin Kolbe (Toulouse) – 14 caps, 40 pts (8t)
13 – Lukhanyo Am (Cell C Sharks) – 15 caps, 15 pts (3t)
12 – Damian de Allende (Munster) – 47 caps, 30 pts (6t)
11 – Makazole Mapimpi (Cell C Sharks) – 14 caps, 70 pts (14t)
10 – Handré Pollard (vice-captain – Montpellier) – 49 caps, 465pts (6t, 78c, 89p, 4d)
09 – Faf de Klerk (Sale Sharks) – 30 caps, 20 pts (4t)

08 – Kwagga Smith (Yamaha Júbilo) – 7 caps, 5 pts (1t)
07 – Pieter-Steph du Toit (DHL Stormers) – 56 caps, 25 pts (5t)
06 – Siya Kolisi (captain – Cell C Sharks) – 51 caps, 30 pts (6t)
05 – Franco Mostert (Honda Heat) – 40 caps, 5pts (1t)
04 – Eben Etzebeth (Toulon) – 86 caps, 15 pts (3t)
03 – Trevor Nyakane (Vodacom Bulls) – 43 caps, 5 pts (1t)
02 – Bongi Mbonambi (DHL Stormers) – 37 caps, 40 pts (8t)
01 – Ox Nché (Cell C Sharks) – 2 caps, 0 pts

16 – Malcolm Marx (Kubota Spears) – 34 caps, 30 pts (6t)
17 – Steven Kitshoff (DHL Stormers) – 48 caps, 5pts (1t)
18 – Frans Malherbe (DHL Stormers) – 39 caps, 5pts (1t)
19 – Lood de Jager (Sale Sharks) – 45 caps, 25 pts (5t)
20 – Rynhardt Elstadt (Toulouse) – 2 caps, 0 pts
21 – Herschel Jantjies (DHL Stormers) – 11 caps, 25 pts (5t)
22 – Elton Jantjies (Pau) – 38 caps, 283 pts (2t, 63c, 49p)
23 – Damian Willemse (DHL Stormers) – 7 caps, 5pts (1t)

BRITISH & IRISH LIONS:
15. Stuart Hogg (Exeter, Scotland) #783
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, England) #816
13. Elliot Daly (Saracens, England) #822
12. Robbie Henshaw (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #824
11. Duhan van der Merwe (Worcester Warriors, Scotland) #841
10. Dan Biggar (Northampton Saints, Wales) #821
09. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors, Scotland) #843

01. Rory Sutherland (Worcester, Scotland) #840
02. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter, England) #851
03. Tadhg Furlong (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #818
04. Maro Itoje (Saracens, England) #825
05. Alun Wyn Jones (C) (Ospreys, Wales) #761
06. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, England) #826
07. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, England) #853
08. Jack Conan (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #839

16. Ken Owens (Scarlets, Wales) #829
17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, England) #787
18. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, England) #814
19. Tadhg Beirne (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #838
20. Hamish Watson (Edinburgh Rugby, Scotland) #847
21. Conor Murray (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #790
22. Owen Farrell (Saracens, England) #780
23. Liam Williams (Scarlets, Wales) #833

PREVIEW:


Last edited by George Carlin on Sat 24 Jul 2021, 4:25 pm; edited 6 times in total
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Post by George Carlin Sat 17 Jul 2021, 8:21 pm

Okay. I will try to kick this off in a way that doesn't make people angry because these boards have been fairly bad tempered. I don't have an issue with any opinions which are contrary to mine. The challenge I have for myself is not to look to any preconceptions I may have had following the 6 Nations and actually select players based on how they have shown up on this tour. 

For me, having watched every single game up to now in full (and all but 2 of the 6 Nations games which preceded this tour), my first test squad would have to be:

01. Jones (Wales)
02. Cowan-Dickie (England)
03. Furlong (Ireland)
04. Itoje (England)
05. Wyn Jones (Wales)
06. Beirne (Ireland)
07. Curry (England)
08. Faletau (Wales) 

09. Price (Scotland)
10. Biggar (Wales) 
11. Adams (Wales) 
12. Henshaw (Ireland)
13. Harris (Scotland)
14. Williams (Wales)
15. Hogg (Scotland)

16. Vunipola (England)
17. George (England)
18. Sinckler (England)
19. Lawes (England)
20. Watson (Scotland)
21. Murray (Ireland)
22. Russell (Scotland)
23. Daly (England)

6 Welsh, 8 English, 4 Irish, 5 Scots


Last edited by George Carlin on Sun 18 Jul 2021, 6:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by BamBam Sat 17 Jul 2021, 8:23 pm

Warburton went with the following

Vunipola
LCD
Furlong
Itoje
Jones
Beirne
Curry
Faletau
Murray
Biggar
Adams
Aki
Daly
Watson
Williams

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Post by cb Sat 17 Jul 2021, 8:27 pm

I think the back three pick will be the most difficult.  VDM, Adams, Watson have all played fairly well and LRZ has the pace.  Williams or Hogg again is a difficult choice.

In the back-row it seems 3 out of Beirne, Curry, Watson and Faletau with Faletau yet to put in a dominant performance.

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Post by cb Sat 17 Jul 2021, 8:31 pm

GC, I think Wyn Jones needs more time.  I would go with Beard starting and Wyn Jones on the bench instead of Lawes.  Though I can also see a 6-2 split.

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Post by Old Man Sat 17 Jul 2021, 8:56 pm

Although it is a sensitve point for me when South Africans represent other nations I think Dvdm will be a great pick for Gatland, he will oppose Kolbe, and although Kolbe is tough for his size, having Dvdm running at him a multitude of times during a test match will take a toll. Equally Kolbe might run around Dvdm, but the Lions are more adept at playing wide

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Post by theslosty Sat 17 Jul 2021, 8:57 pm

I've barely watched this tour so don't really have any valuable comment but I do feel people are overthinking selection when it comes to on-tour form. With the exception of the SA A fixture and possibly the Japan game too, the scorelines have been so one-sided I wouldn't be placing much importance on who's been the best wing so far of second row or whatever. I still think Gatland should have the last 12 months of international and ECC form at the forefront when he picks his 23. e.g. I don't mean to be derogatory about Adam Beard and perhaps some of us outside of Wales have underrated him a bit but honestly I find it strange some are selecting him over the likes of Iain Henderson who was pretty dominant throughout the 6N.

Anyway with that in mind I'd go for:

1. Jones
2. George
3. Furlong
4. Itoje
5. Henderson
6. Beirne
7. Watson
8. Faletau

9. Murray
10. Biggar
11. Adams
12. Farrell
13. Henshaw
14. Watson
15. Hogg

16. LCD
17. Sutherland
18. Sinckler
19. Lawes
20. Curry
21. Price
22. Smith
23. Daly

Hooker is a very tight call and could easily have picked Owens. I think it's too soon for me to trust if AWJ is ready but of course the Lions management will have a better idea than me. While AWJ is undoubtedly a huge loss in terms of his leadership and his talisman status I'd quietly argue Henderson is possibly a slightly better pure second row at this stage. Willing to admit a possible bit of bias at 9, I've heard Murray hasn't been great and Price has impressed but I'm going on what I've seen before this tour. Farrell is picked at 12 as I prefer Henshaw at 13 and it is useful to have that second distributor. Henshaw aside the centre options aren't great, still seems strange Gatland left the likes of Ringrose and Slade at home. Henshaw-Harris would be a bit too blunt for me. I expect Williams to be selected at 15 which is understandable but Hogg obviously has a bit extra in attack which I'm sure we'd all like to see. Plus of course he's had rotten luck with the Lions up till now.
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Post by TightHEAD Sat 17 Jul 2021, 10:52 pm

Don't think I've ever known a series where by the test team is so open, for me Farrell and Murray have played themselves out of the team, apart from that everyone else has a real chance of being involved in the tests.
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Post by TJ Sat 17 Jul 2021, 11:29 pm

TightHEAD wrote:Don't think I've ever known a series where by the test team is so open, for me Farrell and Murray have played themselves out of the team, apart from that everyone else has a real chance of being involved in the tests.

I would tend to agree but Price has made it very hard to leave him out and Hogg has to start as well

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 18 Jul 2021, 1:02 am

Haven't wrapped my head around a XV or full 23 yet, but here are a few players who really surprised me so far on this tour and will/should be at least in the 23:
Price - I thought he was lucky to be playing for Scotland and I never felt he was a great threat when playing against Scotland.  But to me he is one of the most likely nailed on starters. And I don't think it is even close.
Daly - What's his best position?  I think Gatland answered that question.  And even more so, has him playing very well at every position he covered.  Still feels more like the perfect bench player to me because he can come in and play almost anywhere in the back line, but if he starts at 13, no probs.  
LCD - Knew he was still developing his game, but to me he is playing out of his mind and looks better than the Owens or George, either of whom would come off the bench and play very well.

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Post by Rugby Fan Sun 18 Jul 2021, 4:27 am

While individual players have put in fine performances over the matches so far, it has been harder to identify solid combinations.

The front row is perhaps closest, though the question remains about whether we are just looking for parity in scrums, or hoping to attack. Most starting XV selections seem to assume whoever is chosen at lock will just get the job done but we surely have an idea of which second row pairing most effectively supports the front row. The Lions in 2009, and England in 2019 were both more competitive with their best scrummaging locks on the pitch.

From performances to date, you could justify almost any back row while recognizing those left out will be very hard done by. Only Simmonds has been quiet. Again, though, the combination will reflect our gameplan, rather than just the three players who have impressed so far. I'm none the wiser to what that is.

The backline is similar. Gatland played Farrell at inside centre before, so must have had that selection in mind before the tour. However, Farrell alongside one of the other flyhalves is the only real dual playmaker option, so either that strategy will be binned, or the coach will have to trust an out-of-sorts Farrell.

Hogg could be under consideration in a playmaker role from full back, just as Saracens used to do with Goode, and NZ do with Mckenzie and Barrett. Unfortunately, that's something you have to practice, and his COVID-19 isolation has restricted his training. Unless Russell is fit, and Gatland overturns all expectations by fielding a mostly Scottish back line, that doesn't seem likely in the first Test.

So, in the absence of a dual playmaker role, the back line needs to do something else. Arguably, Daley has been the best centre, largely because injury kept Henshaw out of matches, otherwise you'd think he would have shown up best. If you do play Daley though, you'd probably want some decent defensive nous around him in the form of Williams.

No match day squad selection will annoy me, as any counter-intuitive choices will at least give an indication of what the Lions will be trying to do.


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Post by TJ Sun 18 Jul 2021, 6:19 am

Two good posts there from Dr Gray and rugby fan

It seems to me the difficult decisions are around who to leave out rather than who to include. some very good players who could obviusly do a job for the lions are goig to be left out.

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Post by TightHEAD Sun 18 Jul 2021, 6:39 am

We all know Farrell will be on the bench at the very least right!
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Post by TJ Sun 18 Jul 2021, 6:52 am

TightHEAD wrote:We all know Farrell will be on the bench at the very least right!

I really hope not on the form he has shown so far he simply does not merit a place. Midweek captain is where he should be IMO

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Post by George Carlin Sun 18 Jul 2021, 7:45 am

This 6-2 split makes me very nervous.

Old Man - how often has this been a Springbok bench strategy and has this even come back to bite you in a test match?
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Post by Old Man Sun 18 Jul 2021, 7:53 am

It only really became a thing in the RWC, hasn’t come to a point where we ran out of backline subs yet.


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Post by George Carlin Sun 18 Jul 2021, 7:57 am

To ask one question the other way, how many players are there that we just cannot do without?

Never seen such a diversity of opinion about this - especially in the mainstream rugby press if you read the Torygraph, Times, Guardian, Irish Independent and Scotsman (all of which I do read). For the last round of games, one article described the likes of Itoje as less impactful than his reputation suggests he should be and Curry as a busy fool for the first 40 minutes. Another article in a different publication described Itoje as the best player on the park for the same game and Curry as the second best. These are professional rugby writers and they are miles away from a consensus themselves.

For me, players we could not do without are Furlong, Itoje, Beirne, Curry, Biggar and Harris (yes, really). There is no immediate substitute for what they bring to the team and there is no direct replacement, with the possible exception of Curry. For all other players, there are interchangeable alternative options who are test standard and will let nobody down.

Would be interested to know what the South African rugby press is saying about our players.
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Post by Old Man Sun 18 Jul 2021, 8:03 am

Few things I have heard during the week from SA pundits and explayers.

They question the wisdom of selecting Alan Wyn Jones as they doubt he is 100% fit.

They don’t think Conor Murray is a good selection.

Biggar, Farrell and Henshaw as a combo.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 18 Jul 2021, 8:46 am

3. Furlong
4. Itoje
5. Henderson/Lawes
6. Beirne
7. Watson

9. Price
10. Biggar

12. Henshaw
13. Harris

Curry on the bench with AWJ. Pretty wide open other than that for me. Would be happy with any three of the hookers, similar we with the fullback and wings though Daly at 23 makes a lot of sense.

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Post by TightHEAD Sun 18 Jul 2021, 9:01 am

I can't believe World Rugby let the SA illegal hits (headbutts) go unpunished, the same World Rugby who say player welfare is important to them as the list of former players with long term head injuries grows. Take them to the cleaners lads.

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Post by TJ Sun 18 Jul 2021, 9:11 am

George Carlin wrote:To ask one question the other way, how many players are there that we just cannot do without?

Never seen such a diversity of opinion about this - especially in the mainstream rugby press if you read the Torygraph, Times, Guardian, Irish Independent and Scotsman (all of which I do read). For the last round of games, one article described the likes of Itoje as less impactful than his reputation suggests he should be and Curry as a busy fool for the first 40 minutes. Another article in a different publication described Itoje as the best player on the park for the same game and Curry as the second best. These are professional rugby writers and they are miles away from a consensus themselves.

For me, players we could not do without are Furlong, Itoje, Beirne, Curry, Biggar and Harris (yes, really). There is no immediate substitute for what they bring to the team and there is no direct replacement, with the possible exception of Curry. For all other players, there are interchangeable alternative options who are test standard and will let nobody down.

Would be interested to know what the South African rugby press is saying about our players.

I don'ty get why you say Curry - he is just a poor mans Mish! Mish is the better player in better form Itioje is only indispensable because of the lack of top second rows. A very good player yes but overhyped

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Post by George Carlin Sun 18 Jul 2021, 9:26 am

TJ wrote:
George Carlin wrote:To ask one question the other way, how many players are there that we just cannot do without?

Never seen such a diversity of opinion about this - especially in the mainstream rugby press if you read the Torygraph, Times, Guardian, Irish Independent and Scotsman (all of which I do read). For the last round of games, one article described the likes of Itoje as less impactful than his reputation suggests he should be and Curry as a busy fool for the first 40 minutes. Another article in a different publication described Itoje as the best player on the park for the same game and Curry as the second best. These are professional rugby writers and they are miles away from a consensus themselves.

For me, players we could not do without are Furlong, Itoje, Beirne, Curry, Biggar and Harris (yes, really). There is no immediate substitute for what they bring to the team and there is no direct replacement, with the possible exception of Curry. For all other players, there are interchangeable alternative options who are test standard and will let nobody down.

Would be interested to know what the South African rugby press is saying about our players.

I don'ty get why you say Curry - he is just a poor mans Mish!  Mish is the better player in better form   Itioje is only indispensable because of the lack of top second rows.  A very good player yes but overhyped
I don't think that Curry is a better player necessarily but he is a bigger man and I want him to absorb the brunt of the Boks' energy at the breakdown for an hour before putting Watson on. If we're getting murdered at the breakdown then I would sacrifice our number 8 to have Beirne, Curry and Watson on the pitch at the same time.
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Post by TJ Sun 18 Jul 2021, 9:30 am

He really is not that much bigger. Same height and a stone heavier. on official stats

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Post by Old Man Sun 18 Jul 2021, 9:33 am

TightHEAD wrote:I can't believe World Rugby let the SA illegal hits (headbutts) go unpunished, the same World Rugby who say player welfare is important to them as the list of former players with long term head injuries grows. Take them to the cleaners lads.


OK, I will bite.

Which headbutts are you talking about?

Have you also looked at the illegal hits from the Lions, or just those from SA?

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Post by jimbopip Sun 18 Jul 2021, 9:50 am

George Carlin wrote:Okay. I will try to kick this off in a way that doesn't make people angry because these boards have been fairly bad tempered. I don't have an issue with any opinions which are contrary to mine. The challenge I have for myself is not to look to any preconceptions I may have had following the 6 Nations and actually select players based on how they have shown up on this tour.  Hug

For me, having watched every single game up to now in full (and all but 2 of the 6 Nations games which preceded this tour), my first test squad would have to be:

01. Jones (Wales) Probably Gats' choice, but he looked to have hurt a shoulder in the midweek match. Sutherland has looked the best scrummager, but Mako has started to look dynamic around the field.
02. Cowan-Dickie (England)Any one from three here.
03. Furlong (Ireland)easily the form choice; Ragnar scrums better than Sinckler, but Sinckler maybe has carried better so far.
04. Itoje (England) If he was an Olympian he would be a decathlete;and he really p*sses the opposition off royally.
05. Wyn Jones (Wales)Not match fit, bench option, Beard may be seen as the better lineout option.
06. Beirne (Ireland)Hasn't been at his best but no-one else has at 6.
07. Curry (England)Hamish! But Curry to bench at least.
08. Faletau (Wales)Hasn't really shown up at 8, but who has? Could Curry start here? Simmonds has been more dynamic than Faletau. 

09. Price (Scotland) Very Happy
10. Biggar (Wales)  Very Happy
11. Adams (Wales)  Very Happy
12. Henshaw (Ireland)Hasn't really looked 1000% match sharp. But Aki and Faz have been "unconvincing".
13. Harris (Scotland)The best defending 13 we have.
14. Williams (Wales) Neither full back have gone beyond competent/good. VDM offers a first receiver option that pulls in the Bokblitz, I think VDM starts.
15. Hogg (Scotland)I think he gets the nod on what he can do not on form. But the same can be said for Sanjay.

16. Vunipola (England)
17. George (England)
18. Sinckler (England)
19. Lawes (England)
20. Watson (Scotland)
21. Murray (Ireland)If we're looking to up the pace against a tiring Boks side then he's not the man you want.
22. Russell (Scotland)Toonie was hinting that it's a week too early for Dancer. Faz or The Boy Wonder?If only Ryan wilson was on tour.
23. Daly (England)

6 Welsh, 8 English, 4 Irish, 5 Scots

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 18 Jul 2021, 10:06 am

Old Man wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:I can't believe World Rugby let the SA illegal hits (headbutts) go unpunished, the same World Rugby who say player welfare is important to them as the list of former players with long term head injuries grows. Take them to the cleaners lads.


OK, I will bite.

Which headbutts are you talking about?

Have you also looked at the illegal hits from the Lions, or just those from SA?
Many of us have spent a lot of time talking consistency from the referees/TMOs/World Rugby for all or most of this this past season in club and international Rugby. So no probs bring it up again, it is an important topic. But please, let's not talk about the Faf thing again. Yes, he was in the wrong position and got carded. But that little bugger was lucky he wasn't turned into road kill. Imagine getting a red and still getting trampled into dog food?

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Post by TJ Sun 18 Jul 2021, 10:18 am

But that little bugger was lucky he wasn't turned into road kill. Imagine getting a red and still getting trampled into dog food?

LOLz

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Post by Old Man Sun 18 Jul 2021, 10:25 am

doctor_grey wrote:
Old Man wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:I can't believe World Rugby let the SA illegal hits (headbutts) go unpunished, the same World Rugby who say player welfare is important to them as the list of former players with long term head injuries grows. Take them to the cleaners lads.


OK, I will bite.

Which headbutts are you talking about?

Have you also looked at the illegal hits from the Lions, or just those from SA?
Many of us have spent a lot of time talking consistency from the referees/TMOs/World Rugby for all or most of this this past season in club and international Rugby.  So no probs bring it up again, it is an important topic.  But please, let's not talk about the Faf thing again.  Yes, he was in the wrong position and got carded.  But that little bugger was lucky he wasn't turned into road kill.  Imagine getting a red and still getting trampled into dog food?

At the very least you would expect Faf to be a premium brand food for Terriers Yahoo

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Post by alive555 Sun 18 Jul 2021, 10:57 am

if you want to know 95% of Gatlands selection for the first test , you only need to know the identity of 1 starting player, and the rest are very easily identifiable...

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Post by BigGee Sun 18 Jul 2021, 11:19 am

Just to bring this thread back down to earth a little and re-introduce some sense of perspective. I have just read that Georgia's coach, Levan Maisashvili, is in intensive care on a ventilator, following him contracting Covid during Georgia's ill fatted visit to play SA as part of their warm up.

I am sure that we all send our best wishes for him to make a recovery and get back home soon.

It is difficult to concentrate on sport when you hear stories like this!

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Post by Poorfour Sun 18 Jul 2021, 11:42 am

BigGee wrote:Just to bring this thread back down to earth a little and re-introduce some sense of perspective. I have just read that Georgia's coach, Levan Maisashvili, is in intensive care on a ventilator, following him contracting Covid during Georgia's ill fatted visit to play SA as part of their warm up.

I am sure that we all send our best wishes for him to make a recovery and get back home soon.

It is difficult to concentrate on sport when you hear stories like this!

That’s terrible to hear. I hope he recovers soon, and that it’s the last COVID case we’ll get on this tour.
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Post by George Carlin Sun 18 Jul 2021, 1:45 pm

Geech in the Telegraph thinks that Gats will go with this:

01. Jones
02. George
03. Furlong
04. Itoje
05. Wyn Jones
06. Beirne
07. Curry
08. Faletau

09. Murray
10. Biggar
11. Adams
12. Aki
13. Henshaw
14. Watson
15. Williams

16. Sutherland
17. Owens
18. Sinkler
19. Lawes
20. Watson
21. Davies
22. Farrell
23. Daly

8 Welsh, 8 English, 5 Irish, 2 lonely jocks.
censored
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Post by BigGee Sun 18 Jul 2021, 2:07 pm

George Carlin wrote:Geech in the Telegraph thinks that Gats will go with this:

01. Jones
02. George
03. Furlong
04. Itoje
05. Wyn Jones
06. Beirne
07. Curry
08. Faletau

09. Murray
10. Biggar
11. Adams
12. Aki
13. Henshaw
14. Watson
15. Williams

16. Sutherland
17. Owens
18. Sinkler
19. Lawes
20. Watson
21. Davies
22. Farrell
23. Daly

8 Welsh, 8 English, 5 Irish, 2 lonely jocks.
censored

Geech seems to fall over backwards to avoid any accusations of any Scottish bias!

Price, who has been the best SH on tour by a mile, not even on the bench!

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Post by TJ Sun 18 Jul 2021, 2:19 pm

Geech was a great coach in his day. Unfortunately thats many years ago.

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Post by R!skysports Sun 18 Jul 2021, 2:34 pm

If Murray or Farrell are anywhere near this team , I will despair

And it will confirm that I believe a lot is based on reputation than form

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun 18 Jul 2021, 2:47 pm

Some crazy tight selection calls coming into this.

One thing that could be key.....our hardest game so far (SA A obviously) and Curry and Itoje were the best players on the park, this could really put them in prime contention.

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Post by offload Sun 18 Jul 2021, 2:48 pm

Watson Williams Adams
Price Biggar Henshaw Daly

Beirne Faletau Curry
Itoje AW Jones
Furlong George Sutherland

Vunipola, Cowen-Dickie, Sinkler, Beard, Laws, Watson, Davies, Hogg
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Post by R!skysports Sun 18 Jul 2021, 2:54 pm

offload wrote:Watson Williams Adams
Price Biggar Henshaw Daly

Beirne Faletau Curry
Itoje AW Jones
Furlong George Sutherland

Vunipola, Cowen-Dickie, Sinkler, Beard, Laws, Watson, Davies, Hogg

I would swap Daly for Harris. Think he has been one of the best performing players consistently (both defensively and in attack)
And swap starter and bench LCD for George

Not sure AWJ has done enough to jump into the test. He was there but did not really impose himself

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Post by offload Sun 18 Jul 2021, 3:01 pm

R!skysports wrote:

I would swap Daly for Harris. Think he has been one of the best performing players consistently (both defensively and in attack)
And swap starter and bench LCD for George

Not sure AWJ has done enough to jump into the test. He was there but did not really impose himself

I wouldn't have a tantrum over Harris or LCD.
AWJ will have an immense 30 mins in him when SA are throwing everything. There for his presence and leadership. There are other good locks to then come on.
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Post by Rugby Fan Sun 18 Jul 2021, 4:19 pm

Would anyone have a real problem seeing any player named in the match day squad?

I suspect the selection of Farrell in the starting XV would require a large number of fans and pundits to undergo a mandatory HIA, though perhaps not as many if he's on the bench.

Outside of Farrell, is there really anyone who would be cause widespread uproar? For instance, Simmonds would be a total surprise but I'd be curious, rather than upset, because it would suggest the Lions want to do something which has not so far been showcased.

Similarly, If AWJ is going to start, I can even envisage a scenario where Gatland decides pair him with Beard, rather than Itoje, and I wouldn't throw my toys out the pram, despite many pundits believing Itoje is one of the few nailed-on starters.

In short, any outrage over selection is going to be more "I can't believe x isn't playing", than "What the **** is x doing in the team?"

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Post by cb Sun 18 Jul 2021, 4:20 pm

I think Gatland needs to pick a team to hold the Boks in the first 30 minutes and not let the game slip away.  To get some parity and make up any lost ground in the next 30, and then to try to win the match in the last 20.

This suggests the most physical pack from the start (whoever they might be), then the more impact players.

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Post by cb Sun 18 Jul 2021, 4:31 pm

I think Gatland needs to pick a team to hold the Boks in the first 30 minutes and not let the game slip away.  To get some parity and make up any lost ground in the next 30, and then to try to win the match in the last 20.

This suggests the most physical pack from the start (whoever they might be), then the more impact players.

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Post by BigGee Sun 18 Jul 2021, 4:32 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:Would anyone have a real problem seeing any player named in the match day squad?

I suspect the selection of Farrell in the starting XV would require a large number of fans and pundits to undergo a mandatory HIA, though perhaps not as many if he's on the bench.

Outside of Farrell, is there really anyone who would be cause widespread uproar? For instance, Simmonds would be a total surprise but I'd be curious, rather than upset, because it would suggest the Lions want to do something which has not so far been showcased.

Similarly,  If AWJ is going to start, I can even envisage a scenario where Gatland decides pair him with Beard, rather than Itoje, and I wouldn't throw my toys out the pram, despite many pundits believing Itoje is one of the few nailed-on starters.

In short, any outrage over selection is going to be more "I can't believe x isn't playing", than "What the **** is x doing in the team?"


I would object to any player who is clearly out of form being selected on the basis of their 'credit in the bank'. Fortunately, most players in the squad have justified their inclusion, even some of those who arguably did not merit their inclusion in the first place and don't come into that category.

If they are going to pick the team on the basis of history, then why not pick it openly before they leave home. Their have always been bolters who have played their way into the test team on Lions tours and that is the way it should be.

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Post by Soul Requiem Sun 18 Jul 2021, 4:33 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:Would anyone have a real problem seeing any player named in the match day squad?

I suspect the selection of Farrell in the starting XV would require a large number of fans and pundits to undergo a mandatory HIA, though perhaps not as many if he's on the bench.

Outside of Farrell, is there really anyone who would be cause widespread uproar? For instance, Simmonds would be a total surprise but I'd be curious, rather than upset, because it would suggest the Lions want to do something which has not so far been showcased.

Similarly,  If AWJ is going to start, I can even envisage a scenario where Gatland decides pair him with Beard, rather than Itoje, and I wouldn't throw my toys out the pram, despite many pundits believing Itoje is one of the few nailed-on starters.

In short, any outrage over selection is going to be more "I can't believe x isn't playing", than "What the **** is x doing in the team?"

AWJ and Beard? No thank you.

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Post by Old Man Sun 18 Jul 2021, 4:33 pm

cb wrote:I think Gatland needs to pick a team to hold the Boks in the first 30 minutes and not let the game slip away.  To get some parity and make up any lost ground in the next 30, and then to try to win the match in the last 20.

This suggests the most physical pack from the start (whoever they might be), then the more impact players.

That is the exact of Rassie’s philosophy.

Break them down, fatigue them, bring fresh forwards in the 40-50th minute, be patient, the gaps appear in the last quarter.


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Post by Cyril Sun 18 Jul 2021, 4:44 pm

Matt Dawson on the Beeb hasn’t found space for any Scots in his XV although he does think Price will be on the bench.

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Post by TJ Sun 18 Jul 2021, 4:49 pm

Would anyone have a real problem seeing any player named in the match day squad?

vunipola. Farrell, Murray

any of the rest of the squad will do a job and its down to personal preference / playing style / tactics but those 3 have been mince

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Post by George Carlin Sun 18 Jul 2021, 4:58 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:Would anyone have a real problem seeing any player named in the match day squad?

I suspect the selection of Farrell in the starting XV would require a large number of fans and pundits to undergo a mandatory HIA, though perhaps not as many if he's on the bench.

Outside of Farrell, is there really anyone who would be cause widespread uproar? For instance, Simmonds would be a total surprise but I'd be curious, rather than upset, because it would suggest the Lions want to do something which has not so far been showcased.

Similarly,  If AWJ is going to start, I can even envisage a scenario where Gatland decides pair him with Beard, rather than Itoje, and I wouldn't throw my toys out the pram, despite many pundits believing Itoje is one of the few nailed-on starters.

In short, any outrage over selection is going to be more "I can't believe x isn't playing", than "What the **** is x doing in the team?"
It's a good point. I don't think, for example, that Conan or Simmonds have shown up quite as well as Faletau but there isn't much in it and I genuinely wouldn't object to either of Conan or Simmonds starting.

The same is true of the wing three quarter selection. Is Rees-Zammit's unnatural pace going to be more impactful against South Africa that VdM's unnatural power? It's very hard to say.
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Post by BigGee Sun 18 Jul 2021, 5:02 pm

TJ wrote:
Would anyone have a real problem seeing any player named in the match day squad?

vunipola. Farrell, Murray

any of the rest of the squad will do a job and its down to personal preference / playing style / tactics but those 3 have been mince


To be fair, Mako has played himself in to a better vein of form. The other two, not so much.

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Post by R!skysports Sun 18 Jul 2021, 6:02 pm

Cyril wrote:Matt Dawson on the Beeb hasn’t found space for any Scots in his XV although he does think Price will be on the bench.

Well as soon as I say vinapola and Murray I realised he
Has not a clue and basing on romantic dreams of yesteryear

No wonder he has been dropped from a q of sport. He gets it so wrong

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