South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
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The v2 Forum :: Sport :: Rugby Union :: International
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South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
First topic message reminder :
SOUTH AFRICA v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS
Saturday 24 July
KO: 18:00 SAST / 17:00 UK / 20:00 Dubai![Very Happy](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_biggrin.png)
Cape Town Stadium (Newlands), Cape Town
Sky Sports Main Event
Referee: Nic Berry (Australia)
Assistant Referees: Ben O’Keeffe, Mathieu Raynal
TMO: Marius Bloody Jonker of all people
TEAMS:
SOUTH AFRICA:
15 – Willie le Roux (Toyota Verblitz) – 62 caps, 60 pts (12t)
14 – Cheslin Kolbe (Toulouse) – 14 caps, 40 pts (8t)
13 – Lukhanyo Am (Cell C Sharks) – 15 caps, 15 pts (3t)
12 – Damian de Allende (Munster) – 47 caps, 30 pts (6t)
11 – Makazole Mapimpi (Cell C Sharks) – 14 caps, 70 pts (14t)
10 – Handré Pollard (vice-captain – Montpellier) – 49 caps, 465pts (6t, 78c, 89p, 4d)
09 – Faf de Klerk (Sale Sharks) – 30 caps, 20 pts (4t)
08 – Kwagga Smith (Yamaha Júbilo) – 7 caps, 5 pts (1t)
07 – Pieter-Steph du Toit (DHL Stormers) – 56 caps, 25 pts (5t)
06 – Siya Kolisi (captain – Cell C Sharks) – 51 caps, 30 pts (6t)
05 – Franco Mostert (Honda Heat) – 40 caps, 5pts (1t)
04 – Eben Etzebeth (Toulon) – 86 caps, 15 pts (3t)
03 – Trevor Nyakane (Vodacom Bulls) – 43 caps, 5 pts (1t)
02 – Bongi Mbonambi (DHL Stormers) – 37 caps, 40 pts (8t)
01 – Ox Nché (Cell C Sharks) – 2 caps, 0 pts
16 – Malcolm Marx (Kubota Spears) – 34 caps, 30 pts (6t)
17 – Steven Kitshoff (DHL Stormers) – 48 caps, 5pts (1t)
18 – Frans Malherbe (DHL Stormers) – 39 caps, 5pts (1t)
19 – Lood de Jager (Sale Sharks) – 45 caps, 25 pts (5t)
20 – Rynhardt Elstadt (Toulouse) – 2 caps, 0 pts
21 – Herschel Jantjies (DHL Stormers) – 11 caps, 25 pts (5t)
22 – Elton Jantjies (Pau) – 38 caps, 283 pts (2t, 63c, 49p)
23 – Damian Willemse (DHL Stormers) – 7 caps, 5pts (1t)
BRITISH & IRISH LIONS:
15. Stuart Hogg (Exeter, Scotland) #783
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, England) #816
13. Elliot Daly (Saracens, England) #822
12. Robbie Henshaw (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #824
11. Duhan van der Merwe (Worcester Warriors, Scotland) #841
10. Dan Biggar (Northampton Saints, Wales) #821
09. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors, Scotland) #843
01. Rory Sutherland (Worcester, Scotland) #840
02. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter, England) #851
03. Tadhg Furlong (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #818
04. Maro Itoje (Saracens, England) #825
05. Alun Wyn Jones (C) (Ospreys, Wales) #761
06. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, England) #826
07. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, England) #853
08. Jack Conan (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #839
16. Ken Owens (Scarlets, Wales) #829
17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, England) #787
18. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, England) #814
19. Tadhg Beirne (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #838
20. Hamish Watson (Edinburgh Rugby, Scotland) #847
21. Conor Murray (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #790
22. Owen Farrell (Saracens, England) #780
23. Liam Williams (Scarlets, Wales) #833
PREVIEW:
![South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July - Page 10 A_10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f65/18/28/59/95/a_10.png)
![South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July - Page 10 Lions_10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f65/18/28/59/95/lions_10.png)
SOUTH AFRICA v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS
Saturday 24 July
KO: 18:00 SAST / 17:00 UK / 20:00 Dubai
![Very Happy](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_biggrin.png)
Cape Town Stadium (Newlands), Cape Town
Sky Sports Main Event
Referee: Nic Berry (Australia)
Assistant Referees: Ben O’Keeffe, Mathieu Raynal
TMO: Marius Bloody Jonker of all people
TEAMS:
SOUTH AFRICA:
15 – Willie le Roux (Toyota Verblitz) – 62 caps, 60 pts (12t)
14 – Cheslin Kolbe (Toulouse) – 14 caps, 40 pts (8t)
13 – Lukhanyo Am (Cell C Sharks) – 15 caps, 15 pts (3t)
12 – Damian de Allende (Munster) – 47 caps, 30 pts (6t)
11 – Makazole Mapimpi (Cell C Sharks) – 14 caps, 70 pts (14t)
10 – Handré Pollard (vice-captain – Montpellier) – 49 caps, 465pts (6t, 78c, 89p, 4d)
09 – Faf de Klerk (Sale Sharks) – 30 caps, 20 pts (4t)
08 – Kwagga Smith (Yamaha Júbilo) – 7 caps, 5 pts (1t)
07 – Pieter-Steph du Toit (DHL Stormers) – 56 caps, 25 pts (5t)
06 – Siya Kolisi (captain – Cell C Sharks) – 51 caps, 30 pts (6t)
05 – Franco Mostert (Honda Heat) – 40 caps, 5pts (1t)
04 – Eben Etzebeth (Toulon) – 86 caps, 15 pts (3t)
03 – Trevor Nyakane (Vodacom Bulls) – 43 caps, 5 pts (1t)
02 – Bongi Mbonambi (DHL Stormers) – 37 caps, 40 pts (8t)
01 – Ox Nché (Cell C Sharks) – 2 caps, 0 pts
16 – Malcolm Marx (Kubota Spears) – 34 caps, 30 pts (6t)
17 – Steven Kitshoff (DHL Stormers) – 48 caps, 5pts (1t)
18 – Frans Malherbe (DHL Stormers) – 39 caps, 5pts (1t)
19 – Lood de Jager (Sale Sharks) – 45 caps, 25 pts (5t)
20 – Rynhardt Elstadt (Toulouse) – 2 caps, 0 pts
21 – Herschel Jantjies (DHL Stormers) – 11 caps, 25 pts (5t)
22 – Elton Jantjies (Pau) – 38 caps, 283 pts (2t, 63c, 49p)
23 – Damian Willemse (DHL Stormers) – 7 caps, 5pts (1t)
BRITISH & IRISH LIONS:
15. Stuart Hogg (Exeter, Scotland) #783
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, England) #816
13. Elliot Daly (Saracens, England) #822
12. Robbie Henshaw (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #824
11. Duhan van der Merwe (Worcester Warriors, Scotland) #841
10. Dan Biggar (Northampton Saints, Wales) #821
09. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors, Scotland) #843
01. Rory Sutherland (Worcester, Scotland) #840
02. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter, England) #851
03. Tadhg Furlong (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #818
04. Maro Itoje (Saracens, England) #825
05. Alun Wyn Jones (C) (Ospreys, Wales) #761
06. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, England) #826
07. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, England) #853
08. Jack Conan (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #839
16. Ken Owens (Scarlets, Wales) #829
17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, England) #787
18. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, England) #814
19. Tadhg Beirne (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #838
20. Hamish Watson (Edinburgh Rugby, Scotland) #847
21. Conor Murray (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #790
22. Owen Farrell (Saracens, England) #780
23. Liam Williams (Scarlets, Wales) #833
PREVIEW:
Last edited by George Carlin on Sat 24 Jul 2021, 4:25 pm; edited 6 times in total
George Carlin- Admin
- Posts : 15772
Join date : 2011-06-23
Location : KSA
Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
sensisball wrote:It was interesting watching Curry in the Sale pack that was pretty comprehensively overpowered by the La Rochele 8 in the champions cup QF. La Rochele have a monstrous pack (Skelton, Atonio, Alldritt, Vito etc.). Unfortunately even with their Saffer contingent of the Du Preez brothers, DVDM's brother at hooker and Weise in the row they were still pretty much blown away. Curry didn't make any appreciable difference to the pasting they took up front and i think gave away a couple of penalties at breakdown, so I do think the rep the media is building for him as having the potential to be the best English backrow forward ever is a bit premature. Do I think in a few years time that he will be viewed as a better player than Hill or Dallaglio? I'm not so sure.
Yes, he is a great player but as good as his 1997 Lions tour predecessors?
Not yet and by a long way.
Hill has a pretty strong claim to best English flanker ever. We can't compare Curry properly for a few more years, but he genuinely has a chance to be considered in the same class.
It is worth remembering that the best players often look special because of the guys around them. It is rare for an individual to make all the difference, and likewise when an individual fails its not always on him. A really good example of this is the England tour of Australia, when we were up against the Pooper back row. There is no question about who came on top in that contest, and yet in rugby history the ones who will go down as greats of the game were wearing gold and green. The game can be like rock-paper-scissors and I do think the Robshaw/ Haskell combo was particularly strong against the likes of Pocock and especially Hooper.
lostinwales- lostinwales
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
Collapse2005 wrote:For me he has a better chance of getting selected that Smith because he is a more experienced player and hooker while a key position isnt as critical as out half. Smith I dont think has played with anyone in the Lions squad and has almost zero international experience whereas Kelleher has already played a fair bit of rugby at both international and European level with Beirne, Furlong, Henderson, Conan etc. He was throwing (as sub) to Henderson, Conan and Beirne in the six nations and our lineout was a strength.
That's a slightly odd argument. For what it's worth, Smith played with Sinckler for 4 years at Quins and has trained with the other England players (on and off) over a similar period. But I'm not sure that's really relevant. Slightly more relevantly, he ran the show on Saturday having had one full training session with the Lions squad, and did a very good job albeit against tough but limited opposition.
The material factor here is injury. Right now, Gatland has three fit hookers available to him, and supposedly two fit senior fly halves. But we know that Biggar is coming back from an ankle injury, Farrell is rumoured to have a shoulder problem and it's yet to be seen whether Russell will recover from his hamstring tear. If Russell needs an extra week and one of Biggar or Farrell exacerbate the problems they've been carrying, then Smith's on the bench perforce. Likewise, if one hooker picks up a knock on Saturday and another gets an injury in training, Kelleher's on the bench.
What we feel about their respective experience and readiness for the role is irrelevant: the coaches are not going to fly out someone else. Kelleher and Smith are the guys on the ground and the guys who have been in training with the squad. They are both the fourth choice as far as we know, but the nature of tours, especially in South Africa, is that there will be injuries and unexpected players can be thrust into the limelight.
Poorfour- Posts : 6238
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lostinwales likes this post
Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
I agree. I think if either get their chance they will do fine.
Hooker is stacked. These are all real good players, one through four.
Fly half is a bit different because each of the top 3 players have various niggles or worse. There has been a lot of wear and tear on our players for the last year and a half. But all four are different. The biggest concern, of course, is Russell because of his Achilles injury. And the biggest problems with an Achilles injury is the healing time and your Achilles can lie to you.
Hooker is stacked. These are all real good players, one through four.
Fly half is a bit different because each of the top 3 players have various niggles or worse. There has been a lot of wear and tear on our players for the last year and a half. But all four are different. The biggest concern, of course, is Russell because of his Achilles injury. And the biggest problems with an Achilles injury is the healing time and your Achilles can lie to you.
doctor_grey- Posts : 12167
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
Poorfour wrote:Collapse2005 wrote:For me he has a better chance of getting selected that Smith because he is a more experienced player and hooker while a key position isnt as critical as out half. Smith I dont think has played with anyone in the Lions squad and has almost zero international experience whereas Kelleher has already played a fair bit of rugby at both international and European level with Beirne, Furlong, Henderson, Conan etc. He was throwing (as sub) to Henderson, Conan and Beirne in the six nations and our lineout was a strength.
That's a slightly odd argument. For what it's worth, Smith played with Sinckler for 4 years at Quins and has trained with the other England players (on and off) over a similar period. But I'm not sure that's really relevant. Slightly more relevantly, he ran the show on Saturday having had one full training session with the Lions squad, and did a very good job albeit against tough but limited opposition.
The material factor here is injury. Right now, Gatland has three fit hookers available to him, and supposedly two fit senior fly halves. But we know that Biggar is coming back from an ankle injury, Farrell is rumoured to have a shoulder problem and it's yet to be seen whether Russell will recover from his hamstring tear. If Russell needs an extra week and one of Biggar or Farrell exacerbate the problems they've been carrying, then Smith's on the bench perforce. Likewise, if one hooker picks up a knock on Saturday and another gets an injury in training, Kelleher's on the bench.
What we feel about their respective experience and readiness for the role is irrelevant: the coaches are not going to fly out someone else. Kelleher and Smith are the guys on the ground and the guys who have been in training with the squad. They are both the fourth choice as far as we know, but the nature of tours, especially in South Africa, is that there will be injuries and unexpected players can be thrust into the limelight.
Ha, yeah Im sure his partnership with Sinkler will really help him playing out half v the Boks.
He did fine v a weak side. Of course experience is relevant when you play a three test series v the Boks. This isnt a development tour.
Collapse2005- Posts : 7155
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/22/rugby-union-british-irish-lions-south-africa-warren-gatland-marius-jonker-tmo
Gatland furious because Jonker, a South African, has been appointed TMO for the duration of the series. Apparently Pickerill from NZ, the original choice, couldn't make it due to travel disruption.
Gatland furious because Jonker, a South African, has been appointed TMO for the duration of the series. Apparently Pickerill from NZ, the original choice, couldn't make it due to travel disruption.
Duty281- Posts : 33755
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
Duty281 wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/22/rugby-union-british-irish-lions-south-africa-warren-gatland-marius-jonker-tmo
Gatland furious because Jonker, a South African, has been appointed TMO for the duration of the series. Apparently Pickerill from NZ, the original choice, couldn't make it due to travel disruption.
Thats nuts. There's going to be big controversy.
profitius- Posts : 4726
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
It sounds like there was no other option, but that really is far from ideal.
RDW- Founder
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
Surely there's no actual need for the TMO to be at the stadium or even in the country.
Soul Requiem- Posts : 6494
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takethelongroad and alive555 like this post
Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
The TMO's are on site in a truck provided by the broadcaster and has multiple screens and instant access to someone who can pause, rewind, add shots etc. You're right that this could all be done virtually, but it is massively simpler if it's not.
Plus there is the risk of them losing internet, communication etc.
Plus there is the risk of them losing internet, communication etc.
RDW- Founder
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
This puts Marius Jonker in a compromised position, he will now go out of his way to prove he isn’t biased.
This can only be bad for SA
This can only be bad for SA
Old Man- Posts : 3157
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
The NFL has a sideline video review and also a video review team in New York for all games. Location doesn't really matter any more.RDW wrote:The TMO's are on site in a truck provided by the broadcaster and has multiple screens and instant access to someone who can pause, rewind, add shots etc. You're right that this could all be done virtually, but it is massively simpler if it's not.
Plus there is the risk of them losing internet, communication etc.
doctor_grey- Posts : 12167
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
Get Owens out there. This is a travesty.
TightHEAD- Posts : 6192
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alive555 likes this post
Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
doctor_grey wrote:The NFL has a sideline video review and also a video review team in New York for all games. Location doesn't really matter any more.RDW wrote:The TMO's are on site in a truck provided by the broadcaster and has multiple screens and instant access to someone who can pause, rewind, add shots etc. You're right that this could all be done virtually, but it is massively simpler if it's not.
Plus there is the risk of them losing internet, communication etc.
There's no doubt it can be done, it's just rugby isn't set up to do it.
RDW- Founder
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
RDW wrote:doctor_grey wrote:The NFL has a sideline video review and also a video review team in New York for all games. Location doesn't really matter any more.RDW wrote:The TMO's are on site in a truck provided by the broadcaster and has multiple screens and instant access to someone who can pause, rewind, add shots etc. You're right that this could all be done virtually, but it is massively simpler if it's not.
Plus there is the risk of them losing internet, communication etc.
There's no doubt it can be done, it's just rugby isn't set up to do it.
But it is, they stream live coverage of every international match around the world.
Soul Requiem- Posts : 6494
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
Soul Requiem wrote:Surely there's no actual need for the TMO to be at the stadium or even in the country.
none. if data connections a problem the match isnt on tv!
alive555- Posts : 1229
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
We've already seen how bad that can be on this tour. Surely they have to be looking at another solution.
No 7&1/2- Posts : 31355
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
TightHEAD wrote:Get Owens out there. This is a travesty.
![Laugh](/users/3014/26/22/82/smiles/810156456.jpg)
![Very Happy](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_biggrin.png)
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
George Carlin wrote:TightHEAD wrote:Get Owens out there. This is a travesty.So we swap their 'neutral' guy for ours. I like it.
![]()
I would happily have had Owens referee a Wales vs England game.
TightHEAD- Posts : 6192
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
So there is no danger of Faf being caught diving into contact and bashing heads with opposing players then.
Our lads better be careful, especially if we are winning. TMO will be all over it.
Our lads better be careful, especially if we are winning. TMO will be all over it.
TightHEAD- Posts : 6192
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
TightHEAD wrote:So there is no danger of Faf being caught diving into contact and bashing heads with opposing players then.
Our lads better be careful, especially if we are winning. TMO will be all over it.
You are just a ray of sunshine, aren’t you?
Have you bet your house yet?
Old Man- Posts : 3157
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
TightHEAD wrote:George Carlin wrote:TightHEAD wrote:Get Owens out there. This is a travesty.So we swap their 'neutral' guy for ours. I like it.
![]()
I would happily have had Owens referee a Wales vs England game.
Owens has retired and IMO he had become increasing erratic in his interpretations of the laws. Wayne Barnes is the man now I believe
TJ- Posts : 8539
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
I actually feel sorry for Jonker cos he can't win.
Decide something for SA clearly he's biased to his homeland.
Decide something for the Lions clearly he's trying to avoid looking biased.
At this point we just have to trust that it will all work out okay.
I'm going to say he won't be biased and if decisions don't go the Lions way I'll accept his decision and move on.
Decide something for SA clearly he's biased to his homeland.
Decide something for the Lions clearly he's trying to avoid looking biased.
At this point we just have to trust that it will all work out okay.
I'm going to say he won't be biased and if decisions don't go the Lions way I'll accept his decision and move on.
miltonkeynesengland- Posts : 105
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
Old Man wrote:TightHEAD wrote:So there is no danger of Faf being caught diving into contact and bashing heads with opposing players then.
Our lads better be careful, especially if we are winning. TMO will be all over it.
You are just a ray of sunshine, aren’t you?
Have you bet your house yet?
Old Man wrote:This puts Marius Jonker in a compromised position, he will now go out of his way to prove he isn’t biased.
This can only be bad for SA
Soul Requiem- Posts : 6494
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
miltonkeynesengland wrote:I actually feel sorry for Jonker cos he can't win.
Decide something for SA clearly he's biased to his homeland.
Decide something for the Lions clearly he's trying to avoid looking biased.
At this point we just have to trust that it will all work out okay.
I'm going to say he won't be biased and if decisions don't go the Lions way I'll accept his decision and move on.
Could come out ok if he actually replays the incidents, learns the laws etc. Did not cover himself in glory in the A game though. A repeat of that and there'll be a stink kicked up.
No 7&1/2- Posts : 31355
Join date : 2012-10-20
Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
This board is at its most enthusiastic when one side thinks a ref / TMO is to blame. This time EVERYONE agrees the TMO will be to blame, the mods can take the next few weeks off!
BamBam- Posts : 17226
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TightHEAD likes this post
Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
No 7&1/2 wrote:miltonkeynesengland wrote:I actually feel sorry for Jonker cos he can't win.
Decide something for SA clearly he's biased to his homeland.
Decide something for the Lions clearly he's trying to avoid looking biased.
At this point we just have to trust that it will all work out okay.
I'm going to say he won't be biased and if decisions don't go the Lions way I'll accept his decision and move on.
Could come out ok if he actually replays the incidents, learns the laws etc. Did not cover himself in glory in the A game though. A repeat of that and there'll be a stink kicked up.
I have the oddest feeling a stink will be kicked up by someone whatever he does. Rugby is a minefield of laws and interpretations thereof where no matter what a ref says or does someone will find a way to fault them for it.
God knows I'll probably scream at the telly at the time but once it's done...well so be it.
miltonkeynesengland- Posts : 105
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
miltonkeynesengland wrote:No 7&1/2 wrote:miltonkeynesengland wrote:I actually feel sorry for Jonker cos he can't win.
Decide something for SA clearly he's biased to his homeland.
Decide something for the Lions clearly he's trying to avoid looking biased.
At this point we just have to trust that it will all work out okay.
I'm going to say he won't be biased and if decisions don't go the Lions way I'll accept his decision and move on.
Could come out ok if he actually replays the incidents, learns the laws etc. Did not cover himself in glory in the A game though. A repeat of that and there'll be a stink kicked up.
I have the oddest feeling a stink will be kicked up by someone whatever he does. Rugby is a minefield of laws and interpretations thereof where no matter what a ref says or does someone will find a way to fault them for it.
God knows I'll probably scream at the telly at the time but once it's done...well so be it.
The beauty of rugby is it's complexity and of course discussions will commence. There's the clear cut things that they miss which could cause an uproar.
No 7&1/2- Posts : 31355
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
profitius wrote:Duty281 wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/22/rugby-union-british-irish-lions-south-africa-warren-gatland-marius-jonker-tmo
Gatland furious because Jonker, a South African, has been appointed TMO for the duration of the series. Apparently Pickerill from NZ, the original choice, couldn't make it due to travel disruption.
Thats nuts. There's going to be big controversy.
Why ?
When this happens in the PRO14 we are told that it's fine.
LordDowlais- Posts : 15419
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miltonkeynesengland likes this post
Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
![Laugh](/users/3014/26/22/82/smiles/810156456.jpg)
And here come my fan club of dislikers and red bars.
Cowards, why can't you tell me why I'm wrong ?
Personally I am not bothered about the TMO. I think we have enough in us to win without worrying about the officials.
LordDowlais- Posts : 15419
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miltonkeynesengland likes this post
Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
No 7&1/2 wrote:miltonkeynesengland wrote:I actually feel sorry for Jonker cos he can't win.
Decide something for SA clearly he's biased to his homeland.
Decide something for the Lions clearly he's trying to avoid looking biased.
At this point we just have to trust that it will all work out okay.
I'm going to say he won't be biased and if decisions don't go the Lions way I'll accept his decision and move on.
Could come out ok if he actually replays the incidents, learns the laws etc. Did not cover himself in glory in the A game though. A repeat of that and there'll be a stink kicked up.
Mr Jonker has been not covering himself in glory with his interventions for several years now, especially when English players are involved. The main thing he needs to learn is to be less of a backseat driver for the ref - present the best angles, question decisions but ultimately let the man in the middle decide - and to learn what "clear and obvious" means.
Poorfour- Posts : 6238
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
Collapse2005 wrote:
Ha, yeah Im sure his partnership with Sinkler will really help him playing out half v the Boks.
He did fine v a weak side. Of course experience is relevant when you play a three test series v the Boks. This isn't a development tour.
You seem to be confusing "performance" with "selection". You started out talking about who should be selected, but you appear to be thinking more about whether they will perform *if* selected. They are two different things.
Kelleher and Smith are both in a position where if there are injuries to two of the players in front of them, they're in the XXIII. That's just a factual point at this stage of the tour. They have similar chances of ending up in a test shirt, and if anything Smith's are slightly higher simply because the players he is covering for are already carrying injuries. The probability that two of three players will be injured at the same time is higher if two of them already have minor injuries and one is recovering from a more serious injury than if all three are fully fit.
As to who might perform better if they end up being selected, we can only know that in the unfortunate circumstance that they both end up having to play. The only evidence we have for either on tour is that Smith played as well as his more experienced counterparts against similar quality opposition, having spent less time training with them. Will that fall apart if he's asked to play against a full test side? We don't know. Could Kelleher make pressure lineout throws to an unfamiliar set of jumpers in a Test environment? We don't know.
Experience might count. It usually does. Some players need time to adapt to the different pace of international rugby and to adapt to having unfamiliar players around them. A few don't.
Poorfour- Posts : 6238
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doctor_grey and lostinwales like this post
Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
LordDowlais wrote:profitius wrote:Duty281 wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/22/rugby-union-british-irish-lions-south-africa-warren-gatland-marius-jonker-tmo
Gatland furious because Jonker, a South African, has been appointed TMO for the duration of the series. Apparently Pickerill from NZ, the original choice, couldn't make it due to travel disruption.
Thats nuts. There's going to be big controversy.
Why ?
When this happens in the PRO14 we are told that it's fine.
We've already had him act as a tmo this series where he missed a couple of things.
No 7&1/2- Posts : 31355
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
All I am hoping for is not a repeat of the 2009 series, the hypocrisy on display was dialled up to 11 then.
protea438- Posts : 166
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
protea438 wrote:All I am hoping for is not a repeat of the 2009 series, the hypocrisy on display was dialled up to 11 then.
The tmo missing the red?
No 7&1/2- Posts : 31355
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
No 7&1/2 wrote:
We've already had him act as a tmo this series where he missed a couple of things.
Blind as a bat!
TightHEAD- Posts : 6192
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
Unfortunately hypocrisy, crying foul, blaming referees and TMO’s are part and parcel of Rugby Union.
It somehow makes us justify a loss, make excuses and seems to sustain the bubbles of unintended and sadly unacknowledged bias.
It somehow makes us justify a loss, make excuses and seems to sustain the bubbles of unintended and sadly unacknowledged bias.
Old Man- Posts : 3157
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
Old Man wrote:Unfortunately hypocrisy, crying foul, blaming referees and TMO’s are part and parcel of Rugby Union.
It somehow makes us justify a loss, make excuses and seems to sustain the bubbles of unintended and sadly unacknowledged bias.
Bah. It's just another part of the rugby discussion. Flip side of the coin is of course unacknowledged mistakes and turning a blind eye!
No 7&1/2- Posts : 31355
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
No 7&1/2 wrote:Old Man wrote:Unfortunately hypocrisy, crying foul, blaming referees and TMO’s are part and parcel of Rugby Union.
It somehow makes us justify a loss, make excuses and seems to sustain the bubbles of unintended and sadly unacknowledged bias.
Bah. It's just another part of the rugby discussion. Flip side of the coin is of course unacknowledged mistakes and turning a blind eye!
Well that is part and parcle when we live in our own bubbles, isn’t it?
Old Man- Posts : 3157
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No 7&1/2 likes this post
Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
Definitely the case that some don't judge on an incident but on which side of the road they're on.
No 7&1/2- Posts : 31355
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
I've heard a few pundits continue to say that Gatland is sticking two fingers up to Eddie Jones with his selections. Not sure that really holds water, as you could can make a case the other way too.
Choosing LCD over George is something Jones did in the last two 6N games. While George has long been his preferred choice, Jones has clearly been favouring LCD more of late.
Jones doesn't play Daly at centre, though he had plans to do so against Ireland, before Malins got injured, and forced him back to full back. However, Jones rates Daly and almost always wants him in his team. Gatland has evidently concluded the same.
Itoje, Lawes, Curry, and Watson are consistently selected by Jones. Many England supporters despair when they see Lawes at blind-side, and yet Gatland likes him there too. When Jones groomed Curry at eight, he was criticized for wasting his talent. On Saturday, it looks like Gatland is trusting Curry to cover No.8, if Conan gets crocked.
The selection of Simmonds was definitely not from Jones's playbook. For all his talent, though, Simmonds hasn't made much of a mark. It's far too early to say he never will. Still, this is another example of Gatland so far reaching the same conclusion as Jones. Similarly, although Farrell isn't starting tomorrow, if anything, Gatland has demonstrated he values the player in much the same way as Jones.
You can't expect the coaches to agree on everything. Still, they don't seem as far apart on player evaluation as some pundits would like to claim.
Choosing LCD over George is something Jones did in the last two 6N games. While George has long been his preferred choice, Jones has clearly been favouring LCD more of late.
Jones doesn't play Daly at centre, though he had plans to do so against Ireland, before Malins got injured, and forced him back to full back. However, Jones rates Daly and almost always wants him in his team. Gatland has evidently concluded the same.
Itoje, Lawes, Curry, and Watson are consistently selected by Jones. Many England supporters despair when they see Lawes at blind-side, and yet Gatland likes him there too. When Jones groomed Curry at eight, he was criticized for wasting his talent. On Saturday, it looks like Gatland is trusting Curry to cover No.8, if Conan gets crocked.
The selection of Simmonds was definitely not from Jones's playbook. For all his talent, though, Simmonds hasn't made much of a mark. It's far too early to say he never will. Still, this is another example of Gatland so far reaching the same conclusion as Jones. Similarly, although Farrell isn't starting tomorrow, if anything, Gatland has demonstrated he values the player in much the same way as Jones.
You can't expect the coaches to agree on everything. Still, they don't seem as far apart on player evaluation as some pundits would like to claim.
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
What is interesting in this Lions side is the fact that the back row contains two players who, if everyone was fit,
many would not put in their respective national starting XV.
In both cases I would include myself in that analysis
many would not put in their respective national starting XV.
In both cases I would include myself in that analysis
geoff999rugby- Posts : 5842
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Newsilure likes this post
Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
Looks like Gatland is going all out to get SA players scrutinised for every 50/50 play
SA Rugbymag
SA Rugbymag
Old Man- Posts : 3157
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
I think Gatland's got better things to do than 'stick 2 fingers up to Eddie' when trying to put a Lions team together. Plus, you have other coaches on tour who all have their say in selection too.
Probably helps media outlets get some clicks on their news articles though.
Probably helps media outlets get some clicks on their news articles though.
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
Old Man wrote:Looks like Gatland is going all out to get SA players scrutinised for every 50/50 play
SA Rugbymag
Top notch waterboy
protea438- Posts : 166
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
Old Man wrote:Looks like Gatland is going all out to get SA players scrutinised for every 50/50 play
SA Rugbymag
Either that, or we have another bloodbath on our hands.
PS, I know the Lions weren't clean in 2009 series either.
mikey_dragon- Posts : 15445
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
mikey_dragon wrote:Old Man wrote:Looks like Gatland is going all out to get SA players scrutinised for every 50/50 play
SA Rugbymag
Either that, or we have another bloodbath on our hands.
PS, I know the Lions weren't clean in 2009 series either.
Gatland seems a bit serious about this series , I wonder if the stress is getting to him.
Old Man- Posts : 3157
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
Yep, the series will be vicious. Like Psycho on a rugby field.
Duty281- Posts : 33755
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
If anything, he seemed more stressed four years ago, when the NZ press were really laying into him.Old Man wrote:Gatland seems a bit serious about this series , I wonder if the stress is getting to him.
Rugby Fan- Moderator
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
Rugby Fan wrote:If anything, he seemed more stressed four years ago, when the NZ press were really laying into him.Old Man wrote:Gatland seems a bit serious about this series , I wonder if the stress is getting to him.
I think he knows this is his last chance to beat SA, so he is pulling out every advantage he could. If a card can help, he’ll take it
Old Man- Posts : 3157
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Re: South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July
Old Man wrote:Rugby Fan wrote:If anything, he seemed more stressed four years ago, when the NZ press were really laying into him.Old Man wrote:Gatland seems a bit serious about this series , I wonder if the stress is getting to him.
I think he knows this is his last chance to beat SA, so he is pulling out every advantage he could. If a card can help, he’ll take it
To be fair, I think any team would?
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» South Africa vs British and Irish Lions 7th August
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