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South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July

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South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July  - Page 3 Empty South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July

Post by George Carlin Sat 17 Jul 2021, 8:00 pm

First topic message reminder :

South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July  - Page 3 A_10                  South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July  - Page 3 Lions_10                
SOUTH AFRICA BRITISH & IRISH LIONS
Saturday 24 July
KO: 18:00 SAST / 17:00 UK / 20:00 Dubai  Very Happy
Cape Town Stadium (Newlands), Cape Town
Sky Sports Main Event

Referee: Nic Berry (Australia)
Assistant Referees: Ben O’Keeffe, Mathieu Raynal
TMO: Marius Bloody Jonker of all people

TEAMS:

SOUTH AFRICA:
15 – Willie le Roux (Toyota Verblitz) – 62 caps, 60 pts (12t)
14 – Cheslin Kolbe (Toulouse) – 14 caps, 40 pts (8t)
13 – Lukhanyo Am (Cell C Sharks) – 15 caps, 15 pts (3t)
12 – Damian de Allende (Munster) – 47 caps, 30 pts (6t)
11 – Makazole Mapimpi (Cell C Sharks) – 14 caps, 70 pts (14t)
10 – Handré Pollard (vice-captain – Montpellier) – 49 caps, 465pts (6t, 78c, 89p, 4d)
09 – Faf de Klerk (Sale Sharks) – 30 caps, 20 pts (4t)

08 – Kwagga Smith (Yamaha Júbilo) – 7 caps, 5 pts (1t)
07 – Pieter-Steph du Toit (DHL Stormers) – 56 caps, 25 pts (5t)
06 – Siya Kolisi (captain – Cell C Sharks) – 51 caps, 30 pts (6t)
05 – Franco Mostert (Honda Heat) – 40 caps, 5pts (1t)
04 – Eben Etzebeth (Toulon) – 86 caps, 15 pts (3t)
03 – Trevor Nyakane (Vodacom Bulls) – 43 caps, 5 pts (1t)
02 – Bongi Mbonambi (DHL Stormers) – 37 caps, 40 pts (8t)
01 – Ox Nché (Cell C Sharks) – 2 caps, 0 pts

16 – Malcolm Marx (Kubota Spears) – 34 caps, 30 pts (6t)
17 – Steven Kitshoff (DHL Stormers) – 48 caps, 5pts (1t)
18 – Frans Malherbe (DHL Stormers) – 39 caps, 5pts (1t)
19 – Lood de Jager (Sale Sharks) – 45 caps, 25 pts (5t)
20 – Rynhardt Elstadt (Toulouse) – 2 caps, 0 pts
21 – Herschel Jantjies (DHL Stormers) – 11 caps, 25 pts (5t)
22 – Elton Jantjies (Pau) – 38 caps, 283 pts (2t, 63c, 49p)
23 – Damian Willemse (DHL Stormers) – 7 caps, 5pts (1t)

BRITISH & IRISH LIONS:
15. Stuart Hogg (Exeter, Scotland) #783
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, England) #816
13. Elliot Daly (Saracens, England) #822
12. Robbie Henshaw (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #824
11. Duhan van der Merwe (Worcester Warriors, Scotland) #841
10. Dan Biggar (Northampton Saints, Wales) #821
09. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors, Scotland) #843

01. Rory Sutherland (Worcester, Scotland) #840
02. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter, England) #851
03. Tadhg Furlong (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #818
04. Maro Itoje (Saracens, England) #825
05. Alun Wyn Jones (C) (Ospreys, Wales) #761
06. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, England) #826
07. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, England) #853
08. Jack Conan (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #839

16. Ken Owens (Scarlets, Wales) #829
17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, England) #787
18. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, England) #814
19. Tadhg Beirne (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #838
20. Hamish Watson (Edinburgh Rugby, Scotland) #847
21. Conor Murray (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #790
22. Owen Farrell (Saracens, England) #780
23. Liam Williams (Scarlets, Wales) #833

PREVIEW:


Last edited by George Carlin on Sat 24 Jul 2021, 4:25 pm; edited 6 times in total
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Post by TJ Mon 19 Jul 2021, 11:35 am

Adams I think has earned the right to start. His confidence must be sky high and his form is good

I want Hogg at FB - ( but told to calm down a touch)

that leaves one wing spot which IMO is a tricky one. Watson has not been great in the warmups, missing tackles and being caught out of position so his form is not great. VDM is a fantastic player and Gatland likes big strong wingers but he is raw at international level.

for me its Williams on the other wing. We are expecting an arial bombardment and with Hogg likely to counterattack a lot then williams with his full back experience can cover behind him. I like a two full backs and especially against the Bokke

so for me its Williams, Adams, Hogg back 3.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 19 Jul 2021, 12:15 pm

Is this a hint that AWJ is starting on Saturday ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/57888115

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Post by George Carlin Mon 19 Jul 2021, 12:34 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Is this a hint that AWJ is starting on Saturday ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/57888115
If you're playing someone with a recent underlying injury then they have to start.

You need a bench player who is fully and dependably fit or the team risks being screwed. You can't need a new lock and then have to bring them off because they get speared. That's the thing about AWJ - if he's playing, he's starting.
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Post by BigGee Mon 19 Jul 2021, 1:49 pm

George Carlin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Is this a hint that AWJ is starting on Saturday ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/57888115
If you're playing someone with a recent underlying injury then they have to start.

You need a bench player who is fully and dependably fit or the team risks being screwed. You can't need a new lock and then have to bring them off because they get speared. That's the thing about AWJ - if he's playing, he's starting.


Also looks like ROG was right and they have picked the Test team.

I think AWJ will start as well and watch out for a few other soft hints throughout the week.

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Post by offload Mon 19 Jul 2021, 1:51 pm

interesting to read some of the comments on 'current form' versus some sort of legacy measure.

Gone are the days of long drawn out tours with some serious build up opposition. Frankly, the standard of opposition Gatland has had to contend with has been woeful. He isn't going to pick a side based on who has been most able to run through 3rd rate defences. He will look at who has been best able to follow his plan, combinations that have clicked, execution in training and those he thinks he can trust to perform when it counts.

It might look wide open, but Gatland has always been conservative in his selections. Worryingly, the Lions have not been tested. Thankfully, neither have SA.
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Post by Pot Hale Mon 19 Jul 2021, 2:13 pm

You’d wonder what selection would create the greatest furore so I thought I’d try my luck:

Vunipola, Owens, Fagerson
Beard, Henderson
Navidi, Curry, Conan
Davies, Smith
Aki, Henshaw
Zamitt, Williams, Daly
Reps: George, Sutherland, Sinckler, Jones, Murray, Farrell, Watson
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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Mon 19 Jul 2021, 2:20 pm

offload wrote:interesting to read some of the comments on 'current form' versus some sort of legacy measure.

Gone are the days of long drawn out tours with some serious build up opposition. Frankly, the standard of opposition Gatland has had to contend with has been woeful. He isn't going to pick a side based on who has been most able to run through 3rd rate defences. He will look at who has been best able to follow his plan, combinations that have clicked, execution in training and those he thinks he can trust to perform when it counts.

It might look wide open, but Gatland has always been conservative in his selections. Worryingly, the Lions have not been tested. Thankfully, neither have SA.

Eh? What about the loss to SA ‘A’.

Play like we did in the first half & we will be white washed.
Players who stood out in that match were Wyn Jones, Itoje, Curry & A.Watson. I expect all to be in the 23.

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Post by offload Mon 19 Jul 2021, 2:30 pm

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Eh? What about the loss to SA ‘A’.

Play like we did in the first half & we will be white washed.
Players who stood out in that match were Wyn Jones, Itoje, Curry &  A.Watson. I expect all to be in the 23.

Half a game when the Lions gifted them the start doesn't constitute much of a test in my books - the other games have been farcical.
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Post by offload Mon 19 Jul 2021, 2:36 pm

Pot Hale wrote:You’d wonder what selection would create the greatest furore so I thought I’d try my luck:

Vunipola, Owens, Fagerson
Beard, Henderson
Navidi, Curry, Conan
Davies, Smith
Aki, Henshaw
Zamitt, Williams, Daly
Reps: George, Sutherland, Sinckler, Jones, Murray, Farrell, Watson

Oh I don't know, I reckon this team might raise an eyebrow - had to find 4 mid-weekers and a couple of positional changes but looks balanced to me Wink

Wyn Jones, Owens, Sutherland
Beard, Jones
Navidi, Watson, Faletau
Davies, Hogg,
Biggar, Harris
Adams, Williams, LRZ
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Post by BamBam Mon 19 Jul 2021, 2:44 pm

Sutherland, LCD, George
Itoje, Henderson
Beirne, Curry, Conan
Price, Russell
Henshaw, Daly
Watson, Hogg, Duhan

George, Vunipola, Sinckler, Hill, Lawes, Watson, Murray, Smith

Looks a strong side with no weak links, I'd go with something like this ideally

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Post by Old Man Mon 19 Jul 2021, 2:46 pm

offload wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Eh? What about the loss to SA ‘A’.

Play like we did in the first half & we will be white washed.
Players who stood out in that match were Wyn Jones, Itoje, Curry &  A.Watson. I expect all to be in the 23.

Half a game when the Lions gifted them the start doesn't constitute much of a test in my books - the other games have been farcical.

Yeah, that old barnacle. Gifted.

Then I could say SA A gifted the Bulls a win, you play what is in front of you and you lose or you win. Gifted or not.

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Mon 19 Jul 2021, 2:48 pm

Old Man wrote:
offload wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Eh? What about the loss to SA ‘A’.

Play like we did in the first half & we will be white washed.
Players who stood out in that match were Wyn Jones, Itoje, Curry &  A.Watson. I expect all to be in the 23.

Half a game when the Lions gifted them the start doesn't constitute much of a test in my books - the other games have been farcical.

Yeah, that old barnacle. Gifted.

Then I could say SA A gifted the Bulls a win, you play what is in front of you and you lose or you win. Gifted or not.
Agreed

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Post by TJ Mon 19 Jul 2021, 2:52 pm

Gifted? You mean poor play gave then tries. Is that not how all tries are scored?

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Post by offload Mon 19 Jul 2021, 3:04 pm

TJ wrote:Gifted?  You mean poor play gave then tries.  Is that not how all tries are scored?  

No.
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Post by LordDowlais Mon 19 Jul 2021, 3:14 pm

We lost that A game because of poor play and lack of leadership.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 19 Jul 2021, 3:16 pm

Also, just as an aside, when did South Africa decide to ditch the Springbok and take on the protea flower on it's own and why ?

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Post by offload Mon 19 Jul 2021, 3:17 pm

LordDowlais wrote:We lost that A game because of poor play and lack of leadership.
Agreed.
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Post by LordDowlais Mon 19 Jul 2021, 3:18 pm

offload wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:We lost that A game because of poor play and lack of leadership.
Agreed.

I was very disappointed in that game. steam

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Post by MichaelT Mon 19 Jul 2021, 3:19 pm

offload wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:We lost that A game because of poor play and lack of leadership.
Agreed.

So not because the other team were better? The ref will be blamed next.

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Post by offload Mon 19 Jul 2021, 3:21 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
offload wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:We lost that A game because of poor play and lack of leadership.
Agreed.

I was very disappointed in that game. steam

Well...without it we were sleepwalking into the first test, so in that respect it could be crucial.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 19 Jul 2021, 3:21 pm

MichaelT wrote:
offload wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:We lost that A game because of poor play and lack of leadership.
Agreed.

So not because the other team were better? The ref will be blamed next.

Erm he and the tmo did ignore the pen for the first try!

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Post by Pot Hale Mon 19 Jul 2021, 3:23 pm

Am curious - is the Lions website out of date?

https://www.lionsrugby.com/squad/
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Post by Old Man Mon 19 Jul 2021, 3:27 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Also, just as an aside, when did South Africa decide to ditch the Springbok and take on the protea flower on it's own and why ?

Springbok hasn’t been ditched for rugby, the Springbok used to be the emblem for all sport, but after 1994 all the sporting codes reverted to having the Protea (our national flower) on their chest, the Boks retained the bok emblem but carry the protea on the jersey as well.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 19 Jul 2021, 3:31 pm

MichaelT wrote:
offload wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:We lost that A game because of poor play and lack of leadership.
Agreed.

So not because the other team were better? The ref will be blamed next.

Who mentioned the ref ?????

What a strange thing to say.

Farrell and Murray's game management and leadership were non existent. That's what the problem was, whereas Morné Steyn and Faf de Klerk on the other hand played a lot better.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 19 Jul 2021, 3:32 pm

offload wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
offload wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:We lost that A game because of poor play and lack of leadership.
Agreed.

I was very disappointed in that game. steam

Well...without it we were sleepwalking into the first test, so in that respect it could be crucial.

Yes, good point. At least it showed us a few things.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 19 Jul 2021, 3:33 pm

Old Man wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Also, just as an aside, when did South Africa decide to ditch the Springbok and take on the protea flower on it's own and why ?

Springbok hasn’t been ditched for rugby, the Springbok used to be the emblem for all sport, but after 1994 all the sporting codes reverted to having the Protea (our national flower) on their chest, the Boks retained the bok emblem but carry the protea on the jersey as well.

Ah cheers for that old man. Everyday is a school day as they say. OK

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 19 Jul 2021, 3:34 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
MichaelT wrote:
offload wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:We lost that A game because of poor play and lack of leadership.
Agreed.

So not because the other team were better? The ref will be blamed next.

Who mentioned the ref ?????

What a strange thing to say.

Farrell and Murray's game management and leadership were non existent. That's what the problem was, whereas Morné Steyn and Faf de Klerk on the other hand played a lot better.

Ref should have disallowed the first try for obstruction/offside. There's a few examples on Twitter that I've seen highlighting how vocal Farrell has been on tour in leading the team on the pitch, organising people etc. Not sure how much more people would expect of him.

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Post by offload Mon 19 Jul 2021, 3:41 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
MichaelT wrote:
offload wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:We lost that A game because of poor play and lack of leadership.
Agreed.

So not because the other team were better? The ref will be blamed next.

Who mentioned the ref ?????

What a strange thing to say.

Farrell and Murray's game management and leadership were non existent. That's what the problem was, whereas Morné Steyn and Faf de Klerk on the other hand played a lot better.

There's a few examples on Twitter that I've seen highlighting how vocal Farrell has been on tour in leading the team on the pitch, organising people etc. Not sure how much more people would expect of him.

Perhaps playing more like someone with 93 caps who knows what he's doing, rather than someone struggling for form in the Premiership?
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Post by MichaelT Mon 19 Jul 2021, 3:41 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
MichaelT wrote:
offload wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:We lost that A game because of poor play and lack of leadership.
Agreed.

So not because the other team were better? The ref will be blamed next.

Who mentioned the ref ?????

What a strange thing to say.

Farrell and Murray's game management and leadership were non existent. That's what the problem was, whereas Morné Steyn and Faf de Klerk on the other hand played a lot better.

Not a strange thing to say at all. Watch the honest rugby player speech by Jim Telfer. Its quite well known, and appropriate. The comment of poor play and lack of leadership could apply to any time a team lost. My point is when you lose its because the other team were better, hold your hands up and say it. The rest is just excuses. Like blaming a ref.

And just because someone introduces a different point of view or expands on the debate doesn't mean its okay for you to say a comment is strange. Its called conversation.

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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 19 Jul 2021, 3:43 pm

Blaming the ref isn't always an excuse, there are occasions when the decisions made by the officials impact on the result of a match.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 19 Jul 2021, 3:46 pm

MichaelT wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
MichaelT wrote:
offload wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:We lost that A game because of poor play and lack of leadership.
Agreed.

So not because the other team were better? The ref will be blamed next.

Who mentioned the ref ?????

What a strange thing to say.

Farrell and Murray's game management and leadership were non existent. That's what the problem was, whereas Morné Steyn and Faf de Klerk on the other hand played a lot better.

Not a strange thing to say at all. Watch the honest rugby player speech by Jim Telfer. Its quite well known, and appropriate. The comment of poor play and lack of leadership could apply to any time a team lost. My point is when you lose its because the other team were better, hold your hands up and say it. The rest is just excuses. Like blaming a ref.

And just because someone introduces a different point of view or expands on the debate doesn't mean its okay for you to say a comment is strange. Its called conversation.

I would have at least expected either the captain Murray, or the captain elect, Farrell, to tell their forwards to stop taking tap pens and running straight at their defenders, when taking a scrum against 13 men would have reduced their backs by two as they would have had to gone into the scrum, thus creating a better chance of getting the ball to our wingers for a walk in.

I felt so sorry for our backs in that game, our centers and wings hardly saw the ball because of aimless kicking and poor decision making by our half backs.

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Post by Old Man Mon 19 Jul 2021, 3:47 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:Blaming the ref isn't always an excuse, there are occasions when the decisions made by the officials impact on the result of a match.

The fact is referees make a number of errors in every match, some more impactful than others. Their interpretations sometimes benefit one team over another at say the breakdown and the other say at the maul.

Ultimately the swings and roundabouts should theoretically even things out.

But it is all about perceptions, and that isn’t an exact science.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 19 Jul 2021, 3:59 pm

offload wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
MichaelT wrote:
offload wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:We lost that A game because of poor play and lack of leadership.
Agreed.

So not because the other team were better? The ref will be blamed next.

Who mentioned the ref ?????

What a strange thing to say.

Farrell and Murray's game management and leadership were non existent. That's what the problem was, whereas Morné Steyn and Faf de Klerk on the other hand played a lot better.

There's a few examples on Twitter that I've seen highlighting how vocal Farrell has been on tour in leading the team on the pitch, organising people etc. Not sure how much more people would expect of him.

Perhaps playing more like someone with 93 caps who knows what he's doing, rather than someone struggling for form in the Premiership?

Tactics wise you can certainly point to the coaches; Farrell will not do his own thing which can be a plus or a minus. Execution wasn't there at all in the first 20 granted, but he was playing (basically) South Africa. The other fly halfs have also had some dodgy moments out there. Certainly you wouldnt be picking Farrell as the form fly half, not sure anyone has looked imperious, perhaps barring Smith. My view was on the leadership though.

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Post by MichaelT Mon 19 Jul 2021, 4:26 pm

LordDowlais wrote:I would have at least expected either the captain Murray, or the captain elect, Farrell, to tell their forwards to stop taking tap pens and running straight at their defenders, when taking a scrum against 13 men would have reduced their backs by two as they would have had to gone into the scrum, thus creating a better chance of getting the ball to our wingers for a walk in.

I felt so sorry for our backs in that game, our centers and wings hardly saw the ball because of aimless kicking and poor decision making by our half backs.

Murray clearly the problem more than Farrell. Murray took several steps every time he picked up the ball at the ruck. Farrell had no option but to try to kick to move the ball wide otherwise he would have been smashed well behind the gainline. Murray is not a player to try to play a quick game, he is a draw a penalty or create another re-start type player.

However, I don't believe Farrell should have been picked to tour - definitely picked because of his 93 caps, over 1000 points, more than 10 trophies won career rather than his 2021 form.

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Post by doctor_grey Mon 19 Jul 2021, 5:45 pm

Pot Hale wrote:You’d wonder what selection would create the greatest furore so I thought I’d try my luck:

Vunipola, Owens, Fagerson
Beard, Henderson
Navidi, Curry, Conan
Davies, Smith
Aki, Henshaw
Zamitt, Williams, Daly
Reps: George, Sutherland, Sinckler, Jones, Murray, Farrell, Watson
Good point - I would be upset to see Farrell in the 23....

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Post by George Carlin Mon 19 Jul 2021, 7:14 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Old Man wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Also, just as an aside, when did South Africa decide to ditch the Springbok and take on the protea flower on it's own and why ?

Springbok hasn’t been ditched for rugby, the Springbok used to be the emblem for all sport, but after 1994 all the sporting codes reverted to having the Protea (our national flower) on their chest, the Boks retained the bok emblem but carry the protea on the jersey as well.

Ah cheers for that old man. Everyday is a school day as they say. OK
I don't just throw these threads together, you know... Hug
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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Tue 20 Jul 2021, 8:54 am

BamBam wrote:Sutherland, LCD, George
Itoje, Henderson
Beirne, Curry, Conan
Price, Russell
Henshaw, Daly
Watson, Hogg, Duhan

George, Vunipola, Sinckler, Hill, Lawes, Watson, Murray, Smith

Looks a strong side with no weak links, I'd go with something like this ideally

I would say they is quite a weak link at TH. How may games has George played there?

The guy is fit but to have to come on to replace LCD having played the rest of the game at 3, expecting a lot.
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Post by MichaelT Tue 20 Jul 2021, 9:11 am

Wyn Jones, George, Furlong, Itoje, AWJ, Curry, Watson, Faletau, Price, Biggar, VDM, Henshaw, Harris, Williams, Hogg

Vunipola, LCD, Sinckler, Beard, Beirne, Davies, Farrell, Daly

Think Farrell and Dalys versatility lends them to be perfect for the bench here. There will be injuries and won't be surprised to see LRZ, Smith play some part by the end of the series, especially with their pace and skill. Adams unlucky but Williams gets the nod to counter the kicking game. Beard overtaken Henderson for me.

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Post by BamBam Tue 20 Jul 2021, 9:24 am

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
BamBam wrote:Sutherland, LCD, George
Itoje, Henderson
Beirne, Curry, Conan
Price, Russell
Henshaw, Daly
Watson, Hogg, Duhan

George, Vunipola, Sinckler, Hill, Lawes, Watson, Murray, Smith

Looks a strong side with no weak links, I'd go with something like this ideally

I would say they is quite a weak link at TH. How may games has George played there?

The guy is fit but to have to come on to replace LCD having played the rest of the game at 3, expecting a lot.

Laugh brain fart

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 20 Jul 2021, 9:44 am

South Africa due to be naming their team today apparently, Kolisi facing some lung checks according to the Guardian.

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Post by Poorfour Tue 20 Jul 2021, 9:50 am

Wales Online is reporting that the players have already been told who's in the Test squad. So for hints at the make up of the squad look out for anyone with a big grin or frown on their face in this week's training photos. Apart from Farrell, of course, who perpetually looks like he's under a thundercloud.
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Post by MichaelT Tue 20 Jul 2021, 9:52 am

Poorfour wrote:Wales Online is reporting that the players have already been told who's in the Test squad. So for hints at the make up of the squad look out for anyone with a big grin or frown on their face in this week's training photos. Apart from Farrell, of course, who perpetually looks like he's under a thundercloud.

Stuart Hogg just confirmed thats the case on the BBC podcast - recorded yesterday - so the players know before the announcement on Thursday.

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Post by flyhalffactory Tue 20 Jul 2021, 10:52 am

What's been apparent is our inability to compete at the breakdown, in fact we have been dire and as a consequence so has our discipline under pressure

If we use the SA A game as the litmus test, players who were famed for their strength at the breakdown went AWOL. SA Super-Rugby 9% of all tries come from the breakdown and it beggars belief that we were so poor at the tackles developing into the maul, we were second best at the breakdown, rucks mauls, we only came into it when SA went down to 13 men and started running out of steam.

Turnovers W7 L13 is an awful performance. Curry & Itoje both being turned over twice is unacceptable
Pens Conceded 12 most of these were when we were under pressure in the first 40. Curry & Itoje both penalised twice mainly because of their inability to react when SA A were fresh

I might be in the 1% minority but I don't think Itoje is playing as good as others, he has brought his 6Ns form into the tour and my worry is as a unit an undercooked Eben Etzebeth / Franco Mostert (Mostert  had 2 TOs gains to Itojes 0) were much better and with two weeks training it might get a lot worse for Maro. IMHO Beard is playing better especially in the areas where SA will look to create fluency and opportunity

I think Itoje is bullet proof regarding selection and taking into account AWJ "shoulder" I think the starting locks will be
4 Itoje 5 Beard or Lawes with AWJ on the bench

But if you look at Itoje (and Curry) performance first 40 especially around the breakdown / jackalling then I wouldn't start either. If AWJ shoulder is 100% I would start

4 Beard 5 AWJ with Itoje covering Lock/BSF off the bench
with Beirne as our jackalling BSF, Watson on the openside and 8 I just don't think anyone has really nailed it but I would consider Curry but would prefer Conan or Faletau
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Post by BamBam Tue 20 Jul 2021, 10:59 am

If Jones starts, I feel sorry for whichever prop he is bound behind. A one armed Jones, who needed to be replaced by an ageing Simon Shaw 12 years ago due to his weak scrummaging is hardly going to be the best ballast against the big SA pack.

Vickery struggled with Jones behind him, they both got replaced by Adam Jones and Shaw and all was fine, then Vickery with Shaw behind him was fine again. Wonder what the weak link was!

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Post by flyhalffactory Tue 20 Jul 2021, 11:08 am

BamBam wrote:If Jones starts, I feel sorry for whichever prop he is bound behind. A one armed Jones, who needed to be replaced by an ageing Simon Shaw 12 years ago due to his weak scrummaging is hardly going to be the best ballast against the big SA pack.

Vickery struggled with Jones behind him, they both got replaced by Adam Jones and Shaw and all was fine, then Vickery with Shaw behind him was fine again. Wonder what the weak link was!

That's your opinion, most fans on the tour didn't see it like that at all.
Adam Jones and Vickery at the point were like chalk and cheese, Shaw wasn't the pivot of improvement in the pack at all, I'd suggest finding game somewhere online and perhaps watch it. If you still want to blame one player then I'll explain to you the fundamentals of driving through the pack and what key changes influenced the change in direction

Plus that was 12 years ago picard
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Post by jimbopip Tue 20 Jul 2021, 11:17 am

I thought I'd share Kevin (Disco) Millar's analysis of three under commented upon aspects of Hamish Watson's game.
Tackle completion
It has been more than two years since Hamish Watson last missed a tackle for Scotland – a run of 242 successful hits in a row.

So far on tour with the Lions, Hamish has been successful with all 39 tackles he has attempted (the most completed of any Lions’ player) and is one of just four forwards to maintain a 100% tackle completion rate to this point.


Discipline.
It has been more than 700 minutes since Watson last conceded a penalty in a Six Nations’ match.

That hasn’t come about due to lack of involvement either. As can be seen from his tackle count he is a big part of Scotland’s defensive work (second only to Jonny Gray in tackles per 80 minutes).


Turnovers conceded.
Over the last two years, Hamish Watson has carried or passed/offloaded the ball 231 times for Scotland and only conceded 8 turnovers.

That’s a turnover for every 28.9 carries / passes / offloads or a turnover every 148 minutes – not far off just one per two full games played.


Earlier on this post FlyHalf Factory highlighted missed tackles, turnovers conceded and poor discipline against Boks A+; I think Hamish really should start on Saturday. Also, one of the arguments for having Curry at 7 is that he gives another lineout option: it seems that if you look back over a the seasons he averages one lineout take every 1300 minutes played. I can't see that troubling the Boks. Beirne obviously gives a better lineout option at 6. Watson or Curry? A very, very good 7 will be disappointed.

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Post by The Oracle Tue 20 Jul 2021, 11:21 am

BamBam wrote:If Jones starts, I feel sorry for whichever prop he is bound behind. A one armed Jones, who needed to be replaced by an ageing Simon Shaw 12 years ago due to his weak scrummaging is hardly going to be the best ballast against the big SA pack.

Vickery struggled with Jones behind him, they both got replaced by Adam Jones and Shaw and all was fine, then Vickery with Shaw behind him was fine again. Wonder what the weak link was!


Shaw did not come on in the first test where Adam Jones had that glorious moment of replacing Vickery and taming the Beast. AWJ was on the pitch for another 25 mins AFTER Adam Jones came on before being replaced by Donncha O'Callaghan. So the scrum improved with AWJ just on the pitch. Shaw won only his 2nd Lions test cap in the 2nd test where he and Jones both started.

To be hones though, if true I reckon a lot of us were a bit weaker 12 years ago! I certainly was!
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Post by TJ Tue 20 Jul 2021, 11:25 am

Watson or Curry? A very, very good 7 will be disappointed.

good analysis of why Watson should be the front runner.

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Post by BamBam Tue 20 Jul 2021, 11:27 am

flyhalffactory wrote:
BamBam wrote:If Jones starts, I feel sorry for whichever prop he is bound behind. A one armed Jones, who needed to be replaced by an ageing Simon Shaw 12 years ago due to his weak scrummaging is hardly going to be the best ballast against the big SA pack.

Vickery struggled with Jones behind him, they both got replaced by Adam Jones and Shaw and all was fine, then Vickery with Shaw behind him was fine again. Wonder what the weak link was!

That's your opinion, most fans on the tour didn't see it like that at all.
Adam Jones and Vickery at the point were like chalk and cheese, Shaw wasn't the pivot of improvement in the pack at all, I'd suggest finding game somewhere online and perhaps watch it. If you still want to blame one player then I'll explain to you the fundamentals of driving through the pack and what key changes influenced the change in direction

Plus that was 12 years ago picard

A = Vickery
B = Jones
C = Adam Jones
D = Shaw

A+B = Bad
C+D = Good
A+D = Good

A, C and D were all involved in the good. B wasn't, so that makes it bad. Simple!

Ironic that you don't want to compare performances against the same SA test side across 3 games 12 years ago, but you do want to compare the performances against the SA A (Test) side with performances against the South African equivalent of London Irish

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Post by BamBam Tue 20 Jul 2021, 11:30 am

The Oracle wrote:
BamBam wrote:If Jones starts, I feel sorry for whichever prop he is bound behind. A one armed Jones, who needed to be replaced by an ageing Simon Shaw 12 years ago due to his weak scrummaging is hardly going to be the best ballast against the big SA pack.

Vickery struggled with Jones behind him, they both got replaced by Adam Jones and Shaw and all was fine, then Vickery with Shaw behind him was fine again. Wonder what the weak link was!


Shaw did not come on in the first test where Adam Jones had that glorious moment of replacing Vickery and taming the Beast.  AWJ was on the pitch for another 25 mins AFTER Adam Jones came on before being replaced by Donncha O'Callaghan.  So the scrum improved with AWJ just on the pitch.  Shaw won only his 2nd Lions test cap in the 2nd test where he and Jones both started.  

To be hones though, if true I reckon a lot of us were a bit weaker 12 years ago!  I certainly was!

Do you think you'd be stronger 12 years ago with 2 arms rather than now with 1 arm? Hug

If not, let's get Martin Johnson back in, he was still playing 15 years ago and still has two arms, AND is a better captain than anyone else Northern Hemisphere rugby has ever seen!

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