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South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July

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South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July  - Page 4 Empty South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July

Post by George Carlin Sat 17 Jul 2021, 8:00 pm

First topic message reminder :

South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July  - Page 4 A_10                  South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 24 July  - Page 4 Lions_10                
SOUTH AFRICA BRITISH & IRISH LIONS
Saturday 24 July
KO: 18:00 SAST / 17:00 UK / 20:00 Dubai  Very Happy
Cape Town Stadium (Newlands), Cape Town
Sky Sports Main Event

Referee: Nic Berry (Australia)
Assistant Referees: Ben O’Keeffe, Mathieu Raynal
TMO: Marius Bloody Jonker of all people

TEAMS:

SOUTH AFRICA:
15 – Willie le Roux (Toyota Verblitz) – 62 caps, 60 pts (12t)
14 – Cheslin Kolbe (Toulouse) – 14 caps, 40 pts (8t)
13 – Lukhanyo Am (Cell C Sharks) – 15 caps, 15 pts (3t)
12 – Damian de Allende (Munster) – 47 caps, 30 pts (6t)
11 – Makazole Mapimpi (Cell C Sharks) – 14 caps, 70 pts (14t)
10 – Handré Pollard (vice-captain – Montpellier) – 49 caps, 465pts (6t, 78c, 89p, 4d)
09 – Faf de Klerk (Sale Sharks) – 30 caps, 20 pts (4t)

08 – Kwagga Smith (Yamaha Júbilo) – 7 caps, 5 pts (1t)
07 – Pieter-Steph du Toit (DHL Stormers) – 56 caps, 25 pts (5t)
06 – Siya Kolisi (captain – Cell C Sharks) – 51 caps, 30 pts (6t)
05 – Franco Mostert (Honda Heat) – 40 caps, 5pts (1t)
04 – Eben Etzebeth (Toulon) – 86 caps, 15 pts (3t)
03 – Trevor Nyakane (Vodacom Bulls) – 43 caps, 5 pts (1t)
02 – Bongi Mbonambi (DHL Stormers) – 37 caps, 40 pts (8t)
01 – Ox Nché (Cell C Sharks) – 2 caps, 0 pts

16 – Malcolm Marx (Kubota Spears) – 34 caps, 30 pts (6t)
17 – Steven Kitshoff (DHL Stormers) – 48 caps, 5pts (1t)
18 – Frans Malherbe (DHL Stormers) – 39 caps, 5pts (1t)
19 – Lood de Jager (Sale Sharks) – 45 caps, 25 pts (5t)
20 – Rynhardt Elstadt (Toulouse) – 2 caps, 0 pts
21 – Herschel Jantjies (DHL Stormers) – 11 caps, 25 pts (5t)
22 – Elton Jantjies (Pau) – 38 caps, 283 pts (2t, 63c, 49p)
23 – Damian Willemse (DHL Stormers) – 7 caps, 5pts (1t)

BRITISH & IRISH LIONS:
15. Stuart Hogg (Exeter, Scotland) #783
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, England) #816
13. Elliot Daly (Saracens, England) #822
12. Robbie Henshaw (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #824
11. Duhan van der Merwe (Worcester Warriors, Scotland) #841
10. Dan Biggar (Northampton Saints, Wales) #821
09. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors, Scotland) #843

01. Rory Sutherland (Worcester, Scotland) #840
02. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter, England) #851
03. Tadhg Furlong (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #818
04. Maro Itoje (Saracens, England) #825
05. Alun Wyn Jones (C) (Ospreys, Wales) #761
06. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, England) #826
07. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, England) #853
08. Jack Conan (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #839

16. Ken Owens (Scarlets, Wales) #829
17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, England) #787
18. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, England) #814
19. Tadhg Beirne (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #838
20. Hamish Watson (Edinburgh Rugby, Scotland) #847
21. Conor Murray (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #790
22. Owen Farrell (Saracens, England) #780
23. Liam Williams (Scarlets, Wales) #833

PREVIEW:


Last edited by George Carlin on Sat 24 Jul 2021, 4:25 pm; edited 6 times in total
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Post by BamBam Tue 20 Jul 2021, 11:37 am

PS wasn't it the second test where we actually dominated in the scrum.. even the second half of the first test was barely parity thanks to Adam Jones. Proves my point even more about Shawsy and little Alun! Vickery never had a chance with Jones and Mears as his supporting cast, poor guy

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Post by The Oracle Tue 20 Jul 2021, 11:39 am

No it was the first test where he had the ‘famous’ incident and turnaround against the Beast.
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Post by BamBam Tue 20 Jul 2021, 11:39 am

The Oracle wrote:No it was the first test where he had the ‘famous’ incident and turnaround against the Beast.

You should tell him that Laugh - https://www.lionsrugby.com/2020/12/17/adam-jones-the-day-i-tamed-the-beast/

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Post by The Oracle Tue 20 Jul 2021, 11:41 am

BamBam wrote:
The Oracle wrote:No it was the first test where he had the ‘famous’ incident and turnaround against the Beast.

You should tell him that  Laugh  - https://www.lionsrugby.com/2020/12/17/adam-jones-the-day-i-tamed-the-beast/

He started the game in the 2nd test. You were on about when he replaced Vickery. Which was the 1st. Just look it up!
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Post by BamBam Tue 20 Jul 2021, 11:44 am

The Oracle wrote:
BamBam wrote:
The Oracle wrote:No it was the first test where he had the ‘famous’ incident and turnaround against the Beast.

You should tell him that  Laugh  - https://www.lionsrugby.com/2020/12/17/adam-jones-the-day-i-tamed-the-beast/

He started the game in the 2nd test. You were on about when he replaced Vickery. Which was the 1st. Just look it up!

No, my point was that Adam on his own wasn't enough to "dominate the Beast". It needed Shawsy coming in for little Alun to really change the course of the scrums in the series.

As I said my concern is for whichever poor prop ends up with Jones behind him in the scrum this time around with an additional 12 years mileage on the clock and minus 1 arm angel

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Post by Oakdene Tue 20 Jul 2021, 11:50 am

Christ BamBam can't you find a new player to have an issue with.

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Post by RiscaGame Tue 20 Jul 2021, 11:50 am

BamBam wrote:If Jones starts, I feel sorry for whichever prop he is bound behind. A one armed Jones, who needed to be replaced by an ageing Simon Shaw 12 years ago due to his weak scrummaging is hardly going to be the best ballast against the big SA pack.

Vickery struggled with Jones behind him, they both got replaced by Adam Jones and Shaw and all was fine, then Vickery with Shaw behind him was fine again. Wonder what the weak link was!

I have done this before with you. Please stop peddling lies. You can clearly see which side AWJ is on, in this pic.

https://www.sportphotogallery.com/rugby/tom-croft-gethin-jenkins-1st-test-lions-v-south-africa-2009-18674/

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Post by The Oracle Tue 20 Jul 2021, 11:51 am

BamBam wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
BamBam wrote:
The Oracle wrote:No it was the first test where he had the ‘famous’ incident and turnaround against the Beast.

You should tell him that  Laugh  - https://www.lionsrugby.com/2020/12/17/adam-jones-the-day-i-tamed-the-beast/

He started the game in the 2nd test. You were on about when he replaced Vickery. Which was the 1st. Just look it up!

No, my point was that Adam on his own wasn't enough to "dominate the Beast". It needed Shawsy coming in for little Alun to really change the course of the scrums in the series.

As I said my concern is for whichever poor prop ends up with Jones behind him in the scrum this time around with an additional 12 years mileage on the clock and minus 1 arm angel

Ok final point as we need to move on. Adam Jones came on as a replacement and dominated the Beast in ‘that’ scrum in the 1st test. He also faced him, with Shaw, in the 2nd.
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Post by BamBam Tue 20 Jul 2021, 11:54 am

"That scrum" was in the second Test. Adam Jones gave a full interview about it, what more do you want!

Not sure what lies I'm apparently peddling Risca. All that demonstrates is POC + Jones < POC + Shaw at scrummaging.

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Post by BamBam Tue 20 Jul 2021, 11:55 am

Oakdene wrote:Christ BamBam can't you find a new player to have an issue with.

Only if everyone else stops acting like he's the messiah and him coming back into the side with one arm is actually a good thing!

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Post by The Oracle Tue 20 Jul 2021, 11:56 am

BamBam wrote:"That scrum" was in the second Test. Adam Jones gave a full interview about it, what more do you want!

Not sure what lies I'm apparently peddling Risca. All that demonstrates is POC + Jones < POC + Shaw at scrummaging.

‘That’ scrum was when he ran on as a replacement! He wasn’t a replacement in the 2nd test!
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Post by flyhalffactory Tue 20 Jul 2021, 11:57 am

jimbopip wrote:I thought I'd share Kevin (Disco) Millar's analysis of three under commented upon aspects of Hamish Watson's game.
Tackle completion
It has been more than two years since Hamish Watson last missed a tackle for Scotland – a run of 242 successful hits in a row.

So far on tour with the Lions, Hamish has been successful with all 39 tackles he has attempted (the most completed of any Lions’ player) and is one of just four forwards to maintain a 100% tackle completion rate to this point.


Discipline.
It has been more than 700 minutes since Watson last conceded a penalty in a Six Nations’ match.

That hasn’t come about due to lack of involvement either. As can be seen from his tackle count he is a big part of Scotland’s defensive work (second only to Jonny Gray in tackles per 80 minutes).


Turnovers conceded.
Over the last two years, Hamish Watson has carried or passed/offloaded the ball 231 times for Scotland and only conceded 8 turnovers.

That’s a turnover for every 28.9 carries / passes / offloads or a turnover every 148 minutes – not far off just one per two full games played.


Earlier on this post FlyHalf Factory highlighted missed tackles, turnovers conceded and poor discipline against Boks A+; I think Hamish really should start on Saturday. Also, one of the arguments for having Curry at 7 is that he gives another lineout option: it seems that if you look back over a the seasons he averages one lineout take every 1300 minutes played. I can't see that troubling the Boks. Beirne obviously gives a better lineout option at 6. Watson or Curry? A very, very good 7 will be disappointed.

That's exactly the point.
The reason Beirne is touted at 6 is for his jackalling. breakdown and his lineout presence, moreover if we start Itoje, Beard, Faletau, then we don't that 5th lineout option

You saw a different Hamish last game, a player astute and aware of the game around him, unbelievable defensive performance

I'm actually amazed how many "pundits" are actually saying Curry is the best 7 in world rugby at the moment, give him credit he was under pressure to put out a fantastic performance and at times it looked like he wanted to out-Hamish Hamish and as a result he was caught in no mans land and the consequent TO or pen resulted.

That was shades of some players performance in the WC2019 final and as I mentioned my worry is that the undercooked SA players will be two weeks fitter

The real worry because of our breakdown issues (against pretty poor teams) we are giving away pens

13 v Japan (Sinks 2 & Lawes 2)
9 v Sigma (Hill 2)
14 v Sharks (Aki 3 Vunipola 2 Fagerson 2)
9 v Sharks
12 v SA A (Itoje 2 Curry 2)
13 v Stormers (LCD 2 Fagerson 2 Hill 2)

I don't know what the acceptable pen count is for the Lions but I expect to be around 10-12 against quality opponents. We expect our FR to perhaps get pinged under pressure
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Post by Oakdene Tue 20 Jul 2021, 11:57 am

BamBam wrote:
Oakdene wrote:Christ BamBam can't you find a new player to have an issue with.

Only if everyone else stops acting like he's the messiah and him coming back into the side with one arm is actually a good thing!

I think his run out on the weekend where he piled into every tackle & hit rucks shows he got more than one arm....

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Post by RiscaGame Tue 20 Jul 2021, 11:58 am

You keep saying that AWJ was behind Vickery, which I have twice proven he wasn't.

Your constant bashing of him is tiresome. The scrum improved with Matthew Rees over Lee Mears too, yet you seem to want to pin it all on AWJ for some reason. Kind of makes me think you're doing nothing but trying to provoke people, seeing as all you want to do is take swipes at him.

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Post by flyhalffactory Tue 20 Jul 2021, 11:58 am

BamBam wrote:
Oakdene wrote:Christ BamBam can't you find a new player to have an issue with.

Only if everyone else stops acting like he's the messiah and him coming back into the side with one arm is actually a good thing!

I'd suggest getting your facts right first before you bury yourself even deeper into that black hole of AWJ hate
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Post by Old Man Tue 20 Jul 2021, 12:00 pm

I doubt Gatland will be that reckless by putting “a one arm Jones” on the pitch, that kind of thinking is ludicrous

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Post by flyhalffactory Tue 20 Jul 2021, 12:04 pm

RiscaGame wrote:You keep saying that AWJ was behind Vickery, which I have twice proven he wasn't.

Your constant bashing of him is tiresome. The scrum improved with Matthew Rees over Lee Mears too, yet you seem to want to pin it all on AWJ for some reason. Kind of makes me think you're doing nothing but trying to provoke people, seeing as all you want to do is take swipes at him.

Risca mate, don't point him in the right direction, I was waiting for him to spout more rubbish before he exposed himself and got tucked up like a kipper

He doesn't even understand the positioning in the pack, he's got the locks the wrong way round and yes it's the general opinion that Rees was the pivot to the improvement on the Lions side also the fact that the opponents made changes to the pack contributed
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Post by BamBam Tue 20 Jul 2021, 12:07 pm

RiscaGame wrote:You keep saying that AWJ was behind Vickery, which I have twice proven he wasn't.

Your constant bashing of him is tiresome. The scrum improved with Matthew Rees over Lee Mears too, yet you seem to want to pin it all on AWJ for some reason. Kind of makes me think you're doing nothing but trying to provoke people, seeing as all you want to do is take swipes at him.

I already said Vickery was on to a loser with Jones AND Mears in support. If you want me to spell it out completely, I'm happy to do so

1st Test 1st half - Jenkins, Mears, Vickery, Jones, POC - Scrums bad
1st Test 2nd half - Jenkins, Rees, A Jones, Jones, POC - Scrums ok
2nd Test 1st half - Jenkins, Rees, A Jones, POC, Shaw - Scrums very good
2nd Test 2nd half - Scrums went to uncontested after 5 mins
3rd Test - Sheridan, Rees, Vickery, POC, Shaw - Scrums very good

1.5 test matches saw very good scrummaging from the Lions. Vickery who got all the blame for the very bad was involved in some of that. Little Alun was not! An improvement at hooker and second row in scrummaging power led to the very good scrums, guess who was improved on in the second row!

Anyway before I upset the Jones fan club too much and get banned, I'm bowing out. If he plays, I hope he does well because I want us to win. I'd pick others over him, because I'm not swooning at the very sight of his combover, but if he performs well I'll be pleased

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 20 Jul 2021, 12:08 pm

Shaw was a helluva player. He'd be a legend if it wasn't for being around the same time as Johnson.

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Post by RiscaGame Tue 20 Jul 2021, 12:12 pm

BamBam wrote:
Anyway before I upset the Jones fan club too much and get banned, I'm bowing out. If he plays, I hope he does well because I want us to win. I'd pick others over him, because I'm not swooning at the very sight of his combover, but if he performs well I'll be pleased

Bits like this, do little for your credibility. If you want to criticise him, then that's fine. Digs like Little Alun etc, do little to suggest you're being balanced or not wumming.

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Post by lostinwales Tue 20 Jul 2021, 12:15 pm

Curry is usually very astute when he goes for a turnover. For England he's the guy who gets the turnover when the other team are camped 5m from your try line. He's also versatile.

I'd have a problem with someone claiming he's the best 7 in the world, but by the time he gets to Watson's venerable age I wouldn't be surprised if he was.

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Post by offload Tue 20 Jul 2021, 12:16 pm

BamBam wrote:

A = Vickery
B = Jones
C = Adam Jones
D = Shaw

A+B = Bad
C+D = Good
A+D = Good

A, C and D were all involved in the good. B wasn't, so that makes it bad. Simple!

Simple? I think that's where you're going wrong. Rather than attempting simple algebra why not listen to Vickery himself, who feely admits he was awful in the first test and that the beast mullered him. He says he changed things for the third test and got his own back. Anyway, it was POC pushing on the Tighthead side.
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Post by flyhalffactory Tue 20 Jul 2021, 12:34 pm

BamBam wrote:I already said Vickery was on to a loser with Jones AND Mears in support. If you want me to spell it out completely, I'm happy to do so

1st Test 1st half - Jenkins, Mears, Vickery, Jones, POC - Scrums bad
1st Test 2nd half - Jenkins, Rees, A Jones, Jones, POC - Scrums ok
2nd Test 1st half - Jenkins, Rees, A Jones, POC, Shaw - Scrums very good
2nd Test 2nd half - Scrums went to uncontested after 5 mins
3rd Test - Sheridan, Rees, Vickery, POC, Shaw - Scrums very good

So what you are actually stating is that Vickery who was tight head prop was supported by AWJ who was the loose head lock and not POC who surprisingly enough was the tight head lock and Wallace who was supporting POC on the blindside! and nothing to do with an abysmal performance from Mears....... But this was all AWJs fault  picard

This was a pundits view on the 2nd test
Matthew Rees - 8: Barely put a foot wrong with his line-out throwing, a key component of a vastly improved scrum and again prominent in the loose. If fit, seems certain to start again at Ellis Park for the third Test.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 20 Jul 2021, 12:43 pm


Walesonline:


15 – Willie le Roux (Toyota Verblitz) – 62 caps, 60 pts (12t)

14 – Cheslin Kolbe (Toulouse) – 14 caps, 40 pts (8t)

13 – Lukhanyo Am (Cell C Sharks) – 15 caps, 15 pts (3t)

12 – Damian de Allende (Munster) – 47 caps, 30 pts (6t)

11 – Makazole Mapimpi (Cell C Sharks) – 14 caps, 70 pts (14t)

10 – Handré Pollard (vice-captain – Montpellier) – 49 caps, 465pts (6t, 78c, 89p, 4d)

9 – Faf de Klerk (Sale Sharks) – 30 caps, 20 pts (4t)

8 – Kwagga Smith (Yamaha Júbilo) – 7 caps, 5 pts (1t)

7 – Pieter-Steph du Toit (DHL Stormers) – 56 caps, 25 pts (5t)

6 – Siya Kolisi (captain – Cell C Sharks) – 51 caps, 30 pts (6t)

5 – Franco Mostert (Honda Heat) – 40 caps, 5pts (1t)

4 – Eben Etzebeth (Toulon) – 86 caps, 15 pts (3t)

3 – Trevor Nyakane (Vodacom Bulls) – 43 caps, 5 pts (1t)

2 – Bongi Mbonambi (DHL Stormers) – 37 caps, 40 pts (8t)

1 – Ox Nché (Cell C Sharks) – 2 caps, 0 pts

Replacements:

16 – Malcolm Marx (Kubota Spears) – 34 caps, 30 pts (6t)

17 – Steven Kitshoff (DHL Stormers) – 48 caps, 5pts (1t)

18 – Frans Malherbe (DHL Stormers) – 39 caps, 5pts (1t)

19 – Lood de Jager (Sale Sharks) – 45 caps, 25 pts (5t)

20 – Rynhardt Elstadt (Toulouse) – 2 caps, 0 pts

21 – Herschel Jantjies (DHL Stormers) – 11 caps, 25 pts (5t)

22 – Elton Jantjies (Pau) – 38 caps, 283 pts (2t, 63c, 49p)

23 – Damian Willemse (DHL Stormers) – 7 caps, 5pts (1t)

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 20 Jul 2021, 12:46 pm

Hoping that means we don't go with the 6 2 split.

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Post by flyhalffactory Tue 20 Jul 2021, 12:49 pm

lostinwales wrote:Curry is usually very astute when he goes for a turnover. For England he's the guy who gets the turnover when the other team are camped 5m from your try line. He's also versatile.

I'd have a problem with someone claiming he's the best 7 in the world, but by the time he gets to Watson's venerable age I wouldn't be surprised if he was.

I've not seen evidence of that are you thinking of Underhill?

Totally agree he's very versatile and can cover all across the BR. Like Josh Adams how can you leave him out of a side, he is a tremendous player and I'd have no issues with him starting but in my mind his 3 TOs conceded and 3 pens conceded and Watsons better tackling performance highlights to me that it should be 6 Beirne 7 Watson 8? could be Curry but I'd go with Faletau with Curry on the bench to cover BR

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Post by Fluxy Tue 20 Jul 2021, 12:51 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Walesonline:


15 – Willie le Roux (Toyota Verblitz) – 62 caps, 60 pts (12t)

14 – Cheslin Kolbe (Toulouse) – 14 caps, 40 pts (8t)

13 – Lukhanyo Am (Cell C Sharks) – 15 caps, 15 pts (3t)

12 – Damian de Allende (Munster) – 47 caps, 30 pts (6t)

11 – Makazole Mapimpi (Cell C Sharks) – 14 caps, 70 pts (14t)

10 – Handré Pollard (vice-captain – Montpellier) – 49 caps, 465pts (6t, 78c, 89p, 4d)

9 – Faf de Klerk (Sale Sharks) – 30 caps, 20 pts (4t)

8 – Kwagga Smith (Yamaha Júbilo) – 7 caps, 5 pts (1t)

7 – Pieter-Steph du Toit (DHL Stormers) – 56 caps, 25 pts (5t)

6 – Siya Kolisi (captain – Cell C Sharks) – 51 caps, 30 pts (6t)

5 – Franco Mostert (Honda Heat) – 40 caps, 5pts (1t)

4 – Eben Etzebeth (Toulon) – 86 caps, 15 pts (3t)

3 – Trevor Nyakane (Vodacom Bulls) – 43 caps, 5 pts (1t)

2 – Bongi Mbonambi (DHL Stormers) – 37 caps, 40 pts (8t)

1 – Ox Nché (Cell C Sharks) – 2 caps, 0 pts

Replacements:

16 – Malcolm Marx (Kubota Spears) – 34 caps, 30 pts (6t)

17 – Steven Kitshoff (DHL Stormers) – 48 caps, 5pts (1t)

18 – Frans Malherbe (DHL Stormers) – 39 caps, 5pts (1t)

19 – Lood de Jager (Sale Sharks) – 45 caps, 25 pts (5t)

20 – Rynhardt Elstadt (Toulouse) – 2 caps, 0 pts

21 – Herschel Jantjies (DHL Stormers) – 11 caps, 25 pts (5t)

22 – Elton Jantjies (Pau) – 38 caps, 283 pts (2t, 63c, 49p)

23 – Damian Willemse (DHL Stormers) – 7 caps, 5pts (1t)

Interesting, seemingly the stronger scrummaging unit to come off the bench for them.

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Post by Old Man Tue 20 Jul 2021, 12:59 pm

Fluxy wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Walesonline:


15 – Willie le Roux (Toyota Verblitz) – 62 caps, 60 pts (12t)

14 – Cheslin Kolbe (Toulouse) – 14 caps, 40 pts (8t)

13 – Lukhanyo Am (Cell C Sharks) – 15 caps, 15 pts (3t)

12 – Damian de Allende (Munster) – 47 caps, 30 pts (6t)

11 – Makazole Mapimpi (Cell C Sharks) – 14 caps, 70 pts (14t)

10 – Handré Pollard (vice-captain – Montpellier) – 49 caps, 465pts (6t, 78c, 89p, 4d)

9 – Faf de Klerk (Sale Sharks) – 30 caps, 20 pts (4t)

8 – Kwagga Smith (Yamaha Júbilo) – 7 caps, 5 pts (1t)

7 – Pieter-Steph du Toit (DHL Stormers) – 56 caps, 25 pts (5t)

6 – Siya Kolisi (captain – Cell C Sharks) – 51 caps, 30 pts (6t)

5 – Franco Mostert (Honda Heat) – 40 caps, 5pts (1t)

4 – Eben Etzebeth (Toulon) – 86 caps, 15 pts (3t)

3 – Trevor Nyakane (Vodacom Bulls) – 43 caps, 5 pts (1t)

2 – Bongi Mbonambi (DHL Stormers) – 37 caps, 40 pts (8t)

1 – Ox Nché (Cell C Sharks) – 2 caps, 0 pts

Replacements:

16 – Malcolm Marx (Kubota Spears) – 34 caps, 30 pts (6t)

17 – Steven Kitshoff (DHL Stormers) – 48 caps, 5pts (1t)

18 – Frans Malherbe (DHL Stormers) – 39 caps, 5pts (1t)

19 – Lood de Jager (Sale Sharks) – 45 caps, 25 pts (5t)

20 – Rynhardt Elstadt (Toulouse) – 2 caps, 0 pts

21 – Herschel Jantjies (DHL Stormers) – 11 caps, 25 pts (5t)

22 – Elton Jantjies (Pau) – 38 caps, 283 pts (2t, 63c, 49p)

23 – Damian Willemse (DHL Stormers) – 7 caps, 5pts (1t)

Interesting, seemingly the stronger scrummaging unit to come off the bench for them.

Been like that during the RWC as well, front row will sub around the 45 minute mark.

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Post by MichaelT Tue 20 Jul 2021, 12:59 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Curry is usually very astute when he goes for a turnover. For England he's the guy who gets the turnover when the other team are camped 5m from your try line. He's also versatile.

I'd have a problem with someone claiming he's the best 7 in the world, but by the time he gets to Watson's venerable age I wouldn't be surprised if he was.

I've not seen evidence of that are you thinking of Underhill?

Against France in the Six Nations this year, and pretty sure in one of the Sale v Exeter games at the end of the season. Just two examples that spring to my mind of that.

Not sure that many England players have great breakdown/ jackalling ability though. England play a more open game, stripping after contact in open play when turning over as opposed to focusing on winning at the breakdown. We tend to see the breakdown as an opportunity to re-start a-la rugby league. When England struggle recently its because teams have targetted to go straight through and disrupt, and we haven't learned from that. Jack Willis was lauded for it before injury, but again we don't play that way so other players would have the advantage in that to me.

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Post by RiscaGame Tue 20 Jul 2021, 1:00 pm

I thought I had just read that Kolisi wasn't allowed to play.

Can't find it now, but interesting call to bring him straight in.

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Post by lostinwales Tue 20 Jul 2021, 1:18 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Curry is usually very astute when he goes for a turnover. For England he's the guy who gets the turnover when the other team are camped 5m from your try line. He's also versatile.

I'd have a problem with someone claiming he's the best 7 in the world, but by the time he gets to Watson's venerable age I wouldn't be surprised if he was.

I've not seen evidence of that are you thinking of Underhill?

Totally agree he's very versatile and can cover all across the BR. Like Josh Adams how can you leave him out of a side, he is a tremendous player and I'd have no issues with him starting but in my mind his 3 TOs conceded and 3 pens conceded and Watsons better tackling performance highlights to me that it should be 6 Beirne 7 Watson 8? could be Curry but I'd go with Faletau with Curry on the bench to cover BR


I am talking about Curry. I can tell the difference.

Underhill is OK with jackling (and would seem to be the go to jackler in open play when he's not the tackler) but I wouldn't say its a particular strength compared with his tackling and increasingly his support play. For England Curry seems to be given more freedom to get involved when he sees the right opportunity.

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 20 Jul 2021, 1:20 pm

Interesting that SA have two of what is seemingly the 'fetcher' open-sides in the back-row? Maybe to a lesser extent with Kolisi as I'm not sure if he is an actual fetcher. Not sure what his role is really. But to my knowledge SA never did that. They always used to put big men at 6 and 8. Burger and Louw were pretty big open-sides too. Great team though, can't help but feel Goosen would be a greater addition than Elton Jantjies.

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Post by Old Man Tue 20 Jul 2021, 1:28 pm

Yes, after the Bulls performace I would have rushed Goosen into the side, not onlybecause he is a better ten than Jantjies, but because he adds value as a utility back.

Neither Kolisi, Smith or du Toit are fetchers.

SA has been spreading the “fetcher” role to anyone who is the first arrival at the tackle. It could be anyone.

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Post by Poorfour Tue 20 Jul 2021, 1:31 pm

Dredging up a test from 12 years ago as evidence of current performance is pretty feeble evidence. And besides, the refereeing of the scrum in that series was atrocious.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 20 Jul 2021, 1:34 pm

Old Man wrote:Yes, after the Bulls performace I would have rushed Goosen into the side, not onlybecause he is a better ten than Jantjies, but because he adds value as a utility back.

Neither Kolisi, Smith or du Toit are fetchers.

SA has been spreading the “fetcher” role to anyone who is the first arrival at the tackle. It could be anyone.

Marx is the guy there ain't he.

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Post by Poorfour Tue 20 Jul 2021, 1:35 pm

Looks like SA have gone for a 5-3 split on the bench with two Jantjies, so I hope the Lions will do the same rather than mess around with 6-2. The front row bench makes me wonder if it's better to start with Mako on the LH side and have a stronger scrummager on the bench, though I'd rather keep Sinckler on the bench so we have at least one ball playing prop in the closing part of the game.
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Post by Old Man Tue 20 Jul 2021, 1:53 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Old Man wrote:Yes, after the Bulls performace I would have rushed Goosen into the side, not onlybecause he is a better ten than Jantjies, but because he adds value as a utility back.

Neither Kolisi, Smith or du Toit are fetchers.

SA has been spreading the “fetcher” role to anyone who is the first arrival at the tackle. It could be anyone.

Marx is the guy there ain't he.

He would be the main one yes.

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Post by Fluxy Tue 20 Jul 2021, 2:01 pm

Poorfour wrote:Looks like SA have gone for a 5-3 split on the bench with two Jantjies, so I hope the Lions will do the same rather than mess around with 6-2. The front row bench makes me wonder if it's better to start with Mako on the LH side and have a stronger scrummager on the bench, though I'd rather keep Sinckler on the bench so we have at least one ball playing prop in the closing part of the game.

I would think to put our best unit on to start, make them suffer and get them going backwards (if we can), then force them to maybe make a change earlier than they would have liked too.


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Post by Poorfour Tue 20 Jul 2021, 2:21 pm

Fluxy wrote:
Poorfour wrote:Looks like SA have gone for a 5-3 split on the bench with two Jantjies, so I hope the Lions will do the same rather than mess around with 6-2. The front row bench makes me wonder if it's better to start with Mako on the LH side and have a stronger scrummager on the bench, though I'd rather keep Sinckler on the bench so we have at least one ball playing prop in the closing part of the game.

I would think to put our best unit on to start, make them suffer and get them going backwards (if we can), then force them to maybe make a change earlier than they would have liked too.


I just don't fancy the idea of Mako (assuming he's picked) scrummaging against Malherbe.
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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 20 Jul 2021, 2:25 pm

MichaelT wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Curry is usually very astute when he goes for a turnover. For England he's the guy who gets the turnover when the other team are camped 5m from your try line. He's also versatile.

I'd have a problem with someone claiming he's the best 7 in the world, but by the time he gets to Watson's venerable age I wouldn't be surprised if he was.

I've not seen evidence of that are you thinking of Underhill?

Against France in the Six Nations this year, and pretty sure in one of the Sale v Exeter games at the end of the season. Just two examples that spring to my mind of that.

Not sure that many England players have great breakdown/ jackalling ability though. England play a more open game, stripping after contact in open play when turning over as opposed to focusing on winning at the breakdown. We tend to see the breakdown as an opportunity to re-start a-la rugby league. When England struggle recently its because teams have targetted to go straight through and disrupt, and we haven't learned from that. Jack Willis was lauded for it before injury, but again we don't play that way so other players would have the advantage in that to me.

Not sure I agree there. I would say England have more top jackling options available than ever before. LCD, Itoje, Curry, Underhill, Billy....all offer a threat and then there's Willis etc who's just breaking into the side who's a machine. I would say Curry is the true class act in this department though....he's just good at everything tbh....the best 7 in world rugby.

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Post by TJ Tue 20 Jul 2021, 2:50 pm

the best 7 in world rugby.

He is an excellent player but the best? He is not as good as Watson.

See the stats above about Watson. I think Curry may become the best but right now he gives too many penalties away compared to Watson and misses too many tackles. I think because he is trying too hard. Watson is canny about when he goes in for the jackal and it took him time to learn that. who was the player of the 6N again?

Both are excellent players and neither will let the lions down

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Post by TJ Tue 20 Jul 2021, 2:51 pm

Oh - and I do remember Curry getting the turnovers you mention.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 20 Jul 2021, 2:58 pm

Watson is a class act...Curry is a class act. Who ever players will represent the Lions superbly.




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Post by Fluxy Tue 20 Jul 2021, 3:00 pm

Poorfour wrote:
Fluxy wrote:
Poorfour wrote:Looks like SA have gone for a 5-3 split on the bench with two Jantjies, so I hope the Lions will do the same rather than mess around with 6-2. The front row bench makes me wonder if it's better to start with Mako on the LH side and have a stronger scrummager on the bench, though I'd rather keep Sinckler on the bench so we have at least one ball playing prop in the closing part of the game.

I would think to put our best unit on to start, make them suffer and get them going backwards (if we can), then force them to maybe make a change earlier than they would have liked too.


I just don't fancy the idea of Mako (assuming he's picked) scrummaging against Malherbe.

I don't either, but I'd be surprised if he's ahead of the other two, in this match day 23.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 20 Jul 2021, 3:32 pm

TJ wrote:
the best 7 in world rugby.

He is an excellent player but the best?  He is not as good as Watson.  

See the stats above about Watson.  I think Curry may become the best but right now he gives too many penalties away compared to Watson and misses too many tackles.  I think because he is trying too hard.  Watson is canny about when he goes in for the jackal and it took him time to learn that.  who was the player of the 6N again?

Both are excellent players and neither will let the lions down

Different styles as well. Watson for me is a better carrier in the tight everywhere else I'd want Curry. I've said it before but stats can be useful but you need context and understanding behind them. Re pens against 1 came from that lovely itoje pass cheating a clear break from Curry. He stalled waiting for support runners they came too late and he was penalised for hiding on.

Missed tackles, englands game has been about sending kicks down the wings for the winger, full back and flankers to chase. Alot of the time it's pretty easy to side step someone and then be caught by the rest. Individual stats could be misread but for a good while englands style and defence has been very effective.

Is Watson the best open side in the world for you? I'd say he needs to be more active at the breakdown and lienouts personally.

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Post by Oakdene Tue 20 Jul 2021, 3:42 pm

Fluxy wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
Fluxy wrote:
Poorfour wrote:Looks like SA have gone for a 5-3 split on the bench with two Jantjies, so I hope the Lions will do the same rather than mess around with 6-2. The front row bench makes me wonder if it's better to start with Mako on the LH side and have a stronger scrummager on the bench, though I'd rather keep Sinckler on the bench so we have at least one ball playing prop in the closing part of the game.

I would think to put our best unit on to start, make them suffer and get them going backwards (if we can), then force them to maybe make a change earlier than they would have liked too.


I just don't fancy the idea of Mako (assuming he's picked) scrummaging against Malherbe.

I don't either, but I'd be surprised if he's ahead of the other two, in this match day 23.

I think Wyn Jones, if he's overcome the shoulder knock, is nailed on to start on Saturday, I know Mako is good around the field but he is a prop & the most important thing he needs to do is scrummage which he seems to be struggling with. Hooker wise I think it'll be between the two English lads, Ken has been his usual solid self but I think LCD & George have given more eye catching performances.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 20 Jul 2021, 4:09 pm

Id fancy LCD for the start...hes aggressive and powerful...which will work against the Boks.

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Post by flyhalffactory Tue 20 Jul 2021, 4:11 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
MichaelT wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Curry is usually very astute when he goes for a turnover. For England he's the guy who gets the turnover when the other team are camped 5m from your try line. He's also versatile.

I'd have a problem with someone claiming he's the best 7 in the world, but by the time he gets to Watson's venerable age I wouldn't be surprised if he was.

I've not seen evidence of that are you thinking of Underhill?

Against France in the Six Nations this year, and pretty sure in one of the Sale v Exeter games at the end of the season. Just two examples that spring to my mind of that.

Not sure that many England players have great breakdown/ jackalling ability though. England play a more open game, stripping after contact in open play when turning over as opposed to focusing on winning at the breakdown. We tend to see the breakdown as an opportunity to re-start a-la rugby league. When England struggle recently its because teams have targetted to go straight through and disrupt, and we haven't learned from that. Jack Willis was lauded for it before injury, but again we don't play that way so other players would have the advantage in that to me.

Not sure I agree there. I would say England have more top jackling options available than ever before. LCD, Itoje, Curry, Underhill, Billy....all offer a threat and then there's Willis etc who's just breaking into the side who's a machine. I would say Curry is the true class act in this department though....he's just good at everything tbh....the best 7 in world rugby.

Hyperbole
The SA A game, 1st 40 mins, proved if anything that he is still AWOL regarding the breakdown (shades of WC2019 & 6Ns2021), he was turned over and penalised twice as a result of his performance to add to his missed tackles, TOs conceded and pens from the previous game, he had an excellent 2nd 40 but the caveat is SA undercooked and down to 13 players. Itoje "jackalling on the edge or as Toonie and Pivac insinuated before the 6Ns tournament started "over the edge" was curtailed last 6Ns 2021 when he was penalised 12 times, he's been penalised 3 times already and TOs conceded to match.
You might think (like a lot of the usual media suspects) that he is the worlds best 7, shades of Itoje a few years ago, but there's little evidence to support that in 2021.

Watson meanwhile has proven with performances both in the 6Ns 2021 and on this tour, that whilst he rarely makes the eye catching dominant tackles, he doesn't miss a tackle, wins TO's & doesn't get turned over. Watson is a specialist 7 and doesn't cover the BR but without doubt has had a better 12-18 months than Curry.

Both class BRFs however and Gats will look at combinations which doesn't bode well for Watson. I don't have any qualms with Curry starting in the BR but a better 7 than Hamish he definitely is not and last games defensive masterpiece proved that.
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Post by flyhalffactory Tue 20 Jul 2021, 4:16 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Id fancy LCD for the start...hes aggressive and powerful...which will work against the Boks.

I agree, been excellent in the lineout (as they all have) but its his tenacity and "dog with a bone" attitude that edges it.
He would be my selection as well

But George and Owens have been so good as well
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 20 Jul 2021, 4:35 pm

Oh huge slice of good fortune for the Lions, 2nd and 3rd tests are confirmed to be played at Cape Town.

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