England turning the corner & unearthing potential new stars?

2 games into a potentially very difficult AI series and things seem to be looking up for Eddie's England. A rugged display against a dominant SA side, who are certainly on the up. And, a real gutsy performance, pushing the best side in the world right to final whistle.

I'll be honest, we're doing a lot better than I and many others thought we would do. There were certainly some worrying signs coming out of the England camp after a quite awful 6N showing. Injuries to some of our key players in Mako, Billy, Robshaw, Launchbury, Genge....the retirement of Marler, it didn't look good. But, the lads and EJ have proved many of us wrong and certainly deserve some credit.

Anyway.....I think the squad is starting to take shape with less than 12 months to the World Cup. We've learnt that we can live without Billy somewhat, although it would be amazing to have the big guy back and firing. So....

Loosehead - Ben Moon - Realistically this guy was around 6th choice a few months back in a relatively strong position for us (Mako, Marler, Genge, Obano, Mullen?). The way he has stepped in has been quite impressive and he certainly doesn't look out of place. A strong scrummager and a work horse around the park. He may not have the skills of Mako or the aggression of Genge, but he's putting down a marker for sure.

Tighthead - Kyle Sinckler - Seemed destined to have the "impact" tag stuck on him, but has improved and against NZ was a force of nature for large parts of the game. His scrummaging could be better, but boy can this boy hit hard and carry well for a tighthead. The big question for Kyle is, can he maintain this level? If he can, he can become world class.

Lock - Maro Ijoje - After a real dip in form, are we seeing a return for the golden child that is Itoje? If he can cut out the pens and maintain the aggression, it's quite possible.

Blindside/8 - Mark Wilson - I know he's playing 8....but he's more of a 6 who can play 7,8,4 (9,10,11,12,13 etc). This lad has been churning out these kind of performances for Falcons for 3 or 4 years now. It's a bit of a travesty it's took this long to get a shot. I know people rate Robshaw, but Wilson just has a bit more of everything about him. He's physical, pretty quick, hits hard, good over the ball, good hands, can kick goals, walks on water etc etc.

Openside - Sam Underhill - I've not seen a performance like that from an England openside for like.....ever! Immense physicality, carrying, stepping, the guy is just a unit. I've rated big Sam for while now but he just can't seem to stay fit. Please stay fit Sammy! And the lad has only just turned 22!!!

So I've mentioned a few from the pack and I can see a few positions being nailed down:

1. ?
2. ?
3. Sinckler
4. Itoje
5. ?
6. Wilson
7. Underhill
8. Vunipola

It's a shame the backs aren't quite as sorted.

I'm not sure Sinckler is so nailed on. He needs to improve his discipline and his consistency. There's certainly all the potential to be a top international prop.

I think our pack looks a lot more rounded with Kruis in the second row. Not flashy and not individually one of the two best locks. He runs the lineout and does all the jobs needed though. I'd definitely keep him in the team as harsh as that is on Lawes and Launchbury.

Certainly there are grounds for optimism that weren’t there a couple of weeks ago...

Wilson isn't nailed on at 6 by any stretch of the imagination.

The two really important things for me from that last two weeks are:

1. England showing that they can mix it with the very best while missing a lot of their more experienced players.

This is critical, because England have the toughest schedule in RWC 2019. We have Tonga and USA up front, and then Argentina and France. That means that to win the RWC, we have to beat Argentina, France, Australia or Wales, probably New Zealand, and then probably Ireland or South Africa on successive weekends.

We won’t be able to do that playing the same XXIII each week. Eddie will need to be able to mix and match players for different games - maybe even to rotate the squad. We now have genuine options emerging in most positions - often with a couple of players who divide fans in terms of doing the job. We are going to need that - assuming we can get to the tournament with most of them fit.

2. Sam Underhill. We’ve been waiting for Underhill to deliver an international performance to match his potential for some time, and this was quite the place and way to do it. Now, he needs to show that he can manage himself over a run of games: stay fit and maintain form.

Both of those are very positive developments. The key thing will be to maintain it through the rest of the AIs and the 6Ns

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wilson isn't nailed on at 6 by any stretch of the imagination.

Possibly not but he's been highly impressive throughout the AI. I would say he's got more chance than any other backrower of playing 6 when Billy resumes fitness. There's only really Robshaw (when was the last time he impressed at Int level?) and Shields (who has a valid shout also.)

Poorfour wrote:The two really important things for me from that last two weeks are:

1. England showing that they can mix it with the very best while missing a lot of their more experienced players.

This is critical, because England have the toughest schedule in RWC 2019. We have Tonga and USA up front, and then Argentina and France. That means that to win the RWC, we have to beat Argentina, France, Australia or Wales, probably New Zealand, and then probably Ireland or South Africa on successive weekends.

We won’t be able to do that playing the same XXIII each week. Eddie will need to be able to mix and match players for different games - maybe even to rotate the squad. We now have genuine options emerging in most positions - often with a couple of players who divide fans in terms of doing the job. We are going to need that - assuming we can get to the tournament with most of them fit.

2. Sam Underhill. We’ve been waiting for Underhill to deliver an international performance to match his potential for some time, and this was quite the place and way to do it. Now, he needs to show that he can manage himself over a run of games: stay fit and maintain form.

Both of those are very positive developments. The key thing will be to maintain it through the rest of the AIs and the 6Ns

Last two matches were very impressive, to be in it at 80 both times with players missing cant really ask for more from those that played. The 6N battle with Ireland will be fun, England away in the first match could decide the whole thing.

And the 2 outsiders in Clifford and willis I'd say sgt.
I'm quite interested to see jones squad for Japan. I hope we see cokanasiga come in and Tuilagi back. Bar that I bit of consistency would be helpful ahead of Australia.

Before this series, it seemed a long time since an England player on debut, or relatively new to Test rugby, had shone in the way some Irish, Welsh and Scots have managed. Underhill & Wilson managed to do just that which is pleasing.

We often say it's sometimes not the result that counts but the performance. In truth, England supporters are so impatient, that's rarely the case but it probably applies to last Saturday. Still, if we lose to Australia, who look the weakest of the old SANZAR three, and maybe even the SANZAAR four, then the mood could turn again. The Engand Rugby League team was being celebrated for winning the series against New Zealand but we got heavily spanked in the last Test, and things don't look so rosy any more.

On player development, Jones will be pleased he's tapped into some fight. He won't be so pleased with decision-making, and there's not a lot of time to do anything about that. One reason to include Shields in the side might be his captaincy experience but he can't do anything from the stands, and nor can Hartley. Meanwhile, one of our other vice captains, Brown, is out of this squad, while Billy Vunipola is injured.

Our World Cup drop goal was created by a successful lineout, with Thompson throwing long to Moody at the back. We then gained ground through Catt, a Dawson snipe, Back acting scrum-half and passing to Johnson, before Dawson fed Wilkinson. That was good execution by some very experienced players. Nowadays, we aren't finishing matches with enough collective nous on the pitch. We might have had that lesson rammed home even harder, if Farrell had been penalised against South Africa, and their kick converted.

Our back row options have improved, even if Saturday wasn't the turnover festival of Wales against Australia, which should make our Wallaby match a good point of comparison. Against that, even if you don't blame George for the lineout failures, our hooker depth seems highly uncertain, and the same at scrum half. With Robson out, if he is 3rd choice back-up, he'll need to play some time during the Six Nations now. It annoys me that we haven't done that for a third scrum half before.

With Ashton in the mix, and everyone fit, Jones will be choosing a back three, and one sub, from May, Watson, Daly, Brown, Nowell and Ashton. We could be glass half-full and say "what great options" but I wish they more more familiar with each other, and their roles. We don't really know whether Te'o and Slade is our first choice midfield, which just adds to the uncertainty.

I'm feeling better about the team's attitude than I was before the autumn started. I'm also aware that two solid performances can't put everything right because some issues have no quick fixes. Still, it looks like we are in a better position to be in to try and address them.

No 7&1/2 wrote:And the 2 outsiders in Clifford and willis I'd say sgt.
I'm quite interested to see jones squad for Japan.  I hope we see cokanasiga come in and Tuilagi back. Bar that I bit of consistency would be helpful ahead of Australia.

Willis perhaps, who looked a fantastic talent before his injury. Clifford looks a long way short currently. As RF says, Wilson and now Underhill have put in some really impressive performances against big sides.

Not sold at all of wilson. Decent back up but no more.

Assuming everyone is fit, what would be people's first choice lineup come 2019.

For me I still have an issue with the midfield so unlike Eddie will, I revert to F&F and:

Mako, Hartley, Sinckler, Itoje, Launchbury, Underhill, Curry, Billy, Youngs, Ford, Watson, Farrell, Joseph, May, Daly

George, Genge, Williams, Lawes, Wilson, Robson, Manu, Nowell

Then to top up the 31 man squad I would perhaps add:

LCD, Moon, Kruis, Robshaw, Mercer, Care, Slade, Ashton

I would also have the back up players close by should injury strike in a key position.

Jeremy Guscott has written a strange column about Underhill, saying humongous work rate and ferocious tackling isn't enough for an openside these day - I can sort of see what he's saying but think he's being massively harsh. Pockock is a turnover demon but isn't a huge carrier, Tupiric has great skills and breakdown work but isn't a big hitter, etc. etc. - it's very rare to find a 7 who does everything and you've got to frame a team around players' strengths.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/46172381

A back row is all about balance, and if you have a big carrier (Billy V, Hughes, Wilson etc), an all-round player who can make turnovers (Robshaw) then it would be incredibly effective to have a tackling demon who can change a game through big hits that lead to turnovers.

I just don't get it!

I tried to read Jezza's piece, but as is often the case I gave up.

Strange for guscott because reaslitically didn't underhill get 2 turnovers? 1 didn't technically count in the stats as we were playing advantage to new zealand? Tbh I didn't see much wrong at all with the performance.

England haven't turned the corner yet, but they have just outplayed New Zealand for most of an 80 minute game, and two strong performances and victories to follow will leave England in a good place going into 2019.

The main worry is that Jones still doesn't know his best side, not helped with injury to many players. The Ford at 10 and Farrell at 12 combo seems to be consigned to history, with Jones favouring either Teo or Tuilagi at 12.

England are third favourites with the bookmakers to lift the World Cup in Japan, behind New Zealand and Ireland, which is about where I'd put them. It's a very tough draw and demanding schedule for England, if they do want to win the World Cup: playing Argentina on the 5th October, France on the 12th then (if they win the group) it's most likely Australia on the 19th, New Zealand on the 26th and the Irish on the 2nd November...or (if they finish runners-up) it's most likely Wales on the 20th, Ireland on the 27th and New Zealand on the 2nd November.

Mind you, it's not a guarantee England will get out of the group!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Jeremy Guscott has written a strange column about Underhill, saying humongous work rate and ferocious tackling isn't enough for an openside these day - I can sort of see what he's saying but think he's being massively harsh. Pockock is a turnover demon but isn't a huge carrier, Tupiric has great skills and breakdown work but isn't a big hitter, etc. etc. - it's very rare to find a 7 who does everything and you've got to frame a team around players' strengths.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/46172381

A back row is all about balance, and if you have a big carrier (Billy V, Hughes, Wilson etc), an all-round player who can make turnovers (Robshaw) then it would be incredibly effective to have a tackling demon who can change a game through big hits that lead to turnovers.

I just don't get it!

He’s a back, go figure.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not sold at all of wilson. Decent back up but no more.

Well his recent performances would counter that. Seems to bit of an issue with English fans in general with such a large player group, we always want more and think the next player of the conveyor belt may be the savior.

Wilson has put two cracking performances in so far and has everything you'd want from a backrower really. Am I biased, a big fat yes!

He's put in a good performance followed by an ok one. In fairness to him he's playing at 8 as shields is preferred at 6.

Well Gary Graham has just declared for Scotland which makes sense...however there is a young 12 playing for us who looks destined to be outstanding...and he is eligible for a few of the home nations...Eddie needs to tie him to England...quickly.

Underhill was immense. It's his sheer strength and physicality....

Let's hope he stays fit...which so far has been his biggest challenge.

It wasn't so long ago that Tom Curry was widely touted as our leading seven. I asked before this series started whether he was really the best option, or just the one who had been given the shirt, and not done too much wrong.

I think it says more about the desperate desire of pundits and supporters for continuity, than it does about Curry's actual performances, that people wanted him to start.

I really don't know about Curry. As quite a superficial watcher of games, I noticed Underhill and Wilson a lot more than I even noticed Curry. Then again, Curry had most of his chances against a large Bok pack, which posed different challenges to new Zealand on Saturday.

I rate Curry highly....he's going to be challenging Underhill for that 7 spot for the foreseeable future...
They're quite different styles of players though.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I rate Curry highly....he's going to be challenging Underhill for that 7 spot for the foreseeable future...
They're quite different styles of players though.

Seven seems to be like that these days, such a wide variation of player type. From Pocock to Hooper, Sam Cane to Tipuric, underhill to Curry. Very different styles for the one position.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I rate Curry highly....he's going to be challenging Underhill for that 7 spot for the foreseeable future...
They're quite different styles of players though.

 I can see them working very well in the same back row at 6 and 7, ideally with Billy at 8.

Slightly surprised though that none of the usual posters have pointed out Underhill was born in Ohio, and has a hobbit's surname. How dare we pick him for England

Born in Ohio!!!!

Ahh Curry for 7 then...

Ps isn't young Evans back playing for the tigers at 7 Lt?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ps isn't young Evans back playing for the tigers at 7 Lt?

He started this last weekend and was on the bench the week before. Sadly the lack of trust shown by MOC and then the surgery means he now has a lot to do. He is slighter than both Curry and Underhill such that you would worry about him a little against physical teams. I put him in the similar bracket to Jonny Williams (without having played in a proper game this season though) in that there are a lot of people ahead of him in EJ's mind, and he will need to be really pulling up trees. As it is he needs to first convince Geordan to give him game time.

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I rate Curry highly....he's going to be challenging Underhill for that 7 spot for the foreseeable future...
They're quite different styles of players though.

 I can see them working very well in the same back row at 6 and 7, ideally with Billy at 8.

Slightly surprised though that none of the usual posters have pointed out Underhill was born in Ohio, and has a hobbit's surname. How dare we pick him for England

Now look here, if Rokoduguni is eligble after fighting for the Army in Afghanistan, Underhill is definitely eligible after taking on Mordor

LondonTiger wrote:Assuming everyone is fit, what would be people's first choice lineup come 2019.

For me I still have an issue with the midfield so unlike Eddie will, I revert to F&F and:

Mako, Hartley, Sinckler, Itoje, Launchbury, Underhill, Curry, Billy, Youngs, Ford, Watson, Farrell, Joseph, May, Daly

George, Genge, Williams, Lawes, Wilson, Robson, Manu, Nowell

Then to top up the 31 man squad I would perhaps add:

LCD, Moon, Kruis, Robshaw, Mercer, Care, Slade, Ashton

I would also have the back up players close by should injury strike in a key position.

Mako, Genge
Hartley, George
Sinckler, Williams
Itoje, Lawes, Launchbury, Kruis
Robshaw, Wilson, Underhill, Vunipola
Youngs, Care
Ford, Farrell, Slade
Te'o, Tuilagi, Joseph
May, Ashton, Watson, Nowell, Daly, Brown

That gives me three extra spots. Ideally I'd have:
An ambidextrous prop: Do they make these any more? Is Matt Stevens still playing? I'm leaning towards a loosehead, because if Mako got a knock before a QF I wouldn't want to replace him and rule him out the tournament. If it were Sinckler or Williams, I'd be reluctant but more willing to drop them out for Cole. Therefore I guess Hepburn? I prefer him to Moon, although he's weaker in the scrum.
A hooker: probably Cowan-Dickie because of a lack of other options. Alternatively, pick two props to get by the above situation and stuff one of them in as sub hooker in case of emergency. Probably wouldn't lose much on the throwing stakes...
A back row: Ideally an 8. Hopefully Mercer gets another shot and can show what he can do. If not, Hughes, so we can play Vunipola until he breaks down and then switch to Hughes without changing our game plan. We could have another flanker and use Wilson as 8 cover, but I'm not sure that's strictly necessary with Lawes apparently covering 6, so I'd rather have the options at 8.
A scrum half: I said three didn't I? Well, we're light on scrum halves - as we have been for the last 3 years. Can any of the players already named in the backs cover scrum half if needed? If not, drop one of the outside backs (6 is a bit of a luxury) and pick anyone but Wigglesworth.

It's interesting how we'll manage our squad through the 7 games. In 2015 we had the luxury of a "buffer" game against Uruguay to round off the pool, giving us a chance to rest up before the quarter-final. Which would have been lovely, had we made the quarter-final. I assume we'll go full strength against Tonga and then ring the changes for the USA game 4 days later, then everyone will get a rest. Then we'll just go strongest team for the 2-5 remaining games.

Taylorman wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I rate Curry highly....he's going to be challenging Underhill for that 7 spot for the foreseeable future...
They're quite different styles of players though.

Seven seems to be like that these days, such a wide variation of player type. From Pocock to Hooper, Sam Cane to Tipuric, underhill to Curry. Very different styles for the one position.

England (Eddie and previous coaches) seem to favour someone who can help secure our own ball, rather than a ball winning 7 (e.g. Tipuric and Hooper/Pocock). What struck me in the bits of Wales vs Australia I saw was that there appeared to be a lot more turnovers than in the England vs New Zealand game for both sides. Not losing your own ball is roughly equally as important as winning the other team's ball, so while it's good if you have someone to nab the opposition ball, a player like Underhill or Haskell/Moody before him might be a better option to retain your own ball. Yet we laud turnovers and don't really count ruck clearances other than for general involvement/work rate purposes.

It also helps we don't really have many ball winning 7s to pick, therefore it's not an ideology that can get strongly tested. I guess the continued overlooking of Matt Kvesic is the closest thing to confirm this theory.

I wonder if Wilson's performances at 8 have persuaded Eddie that he doesnt need a big carrier at 8? Hughes is great in the AP but has never carried this onto the Int stage. Plus, if Hughes isn't breaking the gain line, he doesn't really add much else.

I don't think Wilson is an International 8 in the carrying sense, but he does add a lot of other excellent qualities.

I think the Japan game is worth Mercer starting .

What we saw was an effective abrasive and mobile backrow put the kiwis under pressure and the tight five fronting up with decent carries. This worked well against a lighter more mobile pack. England need different ways of playing and did so sat. If Billy v comes back this changes dynamics and potentially we start dominating the ball carrying yardage as well. What Wilson brought to no 8 was a bit of intelligence as he knew when to play tight when to pass out and covered the ground where he needed to be. Not sure Hughes is rugby intelligent enough for international level. I'm a wasp fan and love his carrying but we need more from a player than just power. He doesn't always make the right decision and carries too high. Mercer is another clever player imo.

Mercer is a running lighter 8...but he's said he's working on his hard yard carrying aswell..which I thought looked good when he came on v South Africa.

What's his lineout like? If he's an option..that takes away the need for 6 to be a lineout option...though Mark Wilson at 6 is a good lineout option anyway.

Lets be honest, England barely scraped past SA thanks to a poor refereeing decision and squandered a handsome lead against NZ who IMO are stumbling....I'd hardly say they'd turned a corner. They'll hammer Japan no doubt and then consider all is well however the real test is whether they can build on NZ performance and put a struggling Aus to the sword. They seem to perhaps be on, but not over, the hump

As for stars , jaysus do people never learn. Underhill had a good game doing what he does but he is by no means the complete modern 7. More of a 6 and 7/8. Slade is cooking nicely, Ashton offering some sloppy seconds etc but in other areas things are coming apart. The Ford Farrell thing needs to be sorted and hooker is a growing problem.

Glass half full then pie? We talk of adapting to the ref, with a fair few new Zealanders and irish men and women about to have hissy fits over who wayne barnes hates most, and when england do notice Gardners a bit lax on hits and tackles we get the boot anyway!
A big turning point for me is the ruck work. I felt rgsr england protected the ball much better than they have been. Strong carries and strong support. They could do worse than getting in rob Baxter or extern forward coach on pick and drive technique though.

In that respect it is a good thing we did not beat NZ. That would drive expectations sky high when we are not quite the finished article.

I don't think we are as bad as recent results suggest, but we are not quite world beaters yet. Next year is when it matters

No 7&1/2 wrote:...when england do notice Gardners a bit lax...

I'd like to think Farrell went high because he knew Gardner was likely to let that go but I doubt that was the case.

Tongue in cheek. So do 8 but it helps point out that there's always something that people will be negative about especially with a fan base the size of England's.