Gatland to lead the Lions in 2021.......again!

by TightHEAD Fri 10 May 2019, 9:21 am

First topic message reminder :

Gatland to lead the Lions to SA in 2021

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/48224634?filter=none

I guess this rules him out of the England job post RWC, guess he is waiting for the All Blacks, still. thumbsup

by BamBam Tue 14 May 2019, 1:14 pm

Here's an idea, if its a squad of 36/40 whatever, start with a list of the best 9/10 players from each nation, divided equally. Then look at what that gives you in positional terms, where there are gaps and where players who were on the cusp of each country list can fill them.

After that, look at whether there is a clear case for any other players not included to be quite obviously a better fit for the squad.

I'll get flamed, but I'll give it a go, based on a squad of 40 as if it was going tomorrow and everyone was fit

Best 10 players
England - Mako, Sinckler, Itoje, Kruis, Curry, Billy, Farrell, Tuilagi, Daly, May
Ireland - Healy, Furlong, Ryan, POM, Leavy, Stander, Murray, Sexton, Ringrose, Stockdale
Wales - Evans, Owens, Jones, Navidi, Tipuric, Faletau, Biggar, JD2, Adams, Williams
Scotland - Brown, Mcinally, Nel, J Gray, Barclay, Watson, Russell, Jones, Taylor, Hogg

6 Props - Mako, Healy, Evans, Sinckler, Furlong, Nel
3 Hooker - Owens, Brown, McInally
5 Lock - Itoje, Kruis, Ryan, Jones, Gray
10 BR - Curry, Billy, POM, Leavy, Stander, Navidi, Tipuric, Faletau, Barclay, Watson

1 SH - Murray
4 FH - Farrell, Sexton, Biggar, Russell
5 C - Tuilagi, Ringrose, JD2, Jones, Taylor
6 B3 - Daly, May, Stockdale, Adams, Williams, Hogg

I'll leave it to someone else to decide how to balance out the squad Laugh

, we need 1 more prop, 4 fewer back rowers, 2 more 9s and 1 less FH imo

by tigertattie Tue 14 May 2019, 1:18 pm

Maybes I can't count too well!

Theres an arguement that you could have Liam Williams on the wing but I'd still have Hogg at fullback

I guess what it shows is that Wales play better than the sum of thier parts. Individually there may be better players, but Gatland does get the Welsh team playing well together.

by **RiscaGame** Tue 14 May 2019, 1:21 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Moriarty was perhaps the most contentious choice but it is unlikely he kept out a Scot. Russell perhaps the most contentious omission from Scotland, but his headless chicken act at Twickenham that year would have counted against him.

Russell would probably only have been third choice (much like Biggar was), so in a way that selection made sense.

I assume Moriarty only really travelled as a back up number 8, so perhaps wouldn't have featured more. I know the selection meeting was possibly a bit staged (on the dvd), but I am certain it was Rowntree who spoke highly of him.

by TightHEAD Tue 14 May 2019, 1:47 pm

Ringrose over Slade & JJ.

Madness.

by BamBam Tue 14 May 2019, 2:01 pm

If that's the biggest criticism, I've done ok Laugh

For what its worth, it wasn't Ringrose over Slade & JJ. It was 10 other England players over Slade & JJ, while Ringrose is in the top 10 Irish players IMO.

Although I'd probably have Ringrose over both of them anyway if I had to pick

by Collapse2005 Tue 14 May 2019, 2:02 pm

TightHEAD wrote:Ringrose over Slade & JJ.

Madness.

Hardly madness that a European player of the year nominee would be touted as a potential Lion.

by TightHEAD Tue 14 May 2019, 2:03 pm

Average Centre at best, that's what my Irish mate says! and I agree.

by Collapse2005 Tue 14 May 2019, 2:05 pm

TightHEAD wrote:Average Centre at best, that's what my Irish mate says! and I agree.

Is your Irish friend from Limerick or Cork?

by TightHEAD Tue 14 May 2019, 2:10 pm

Derry I think.

by TightHEAD Tue 14 May 2019, 2:11 pm

Goode at FB for me.

by Guest Tue 14 May 2019, 2:23 pm

And so it begins... Sad

by **LondonTiger** Tue 14 May 2019, 2:24 pm

BamBam wrote:If that's the biggest criticism, I've done ok

For what its worth, it wasn't Ringrose over Slade & JJ. It was 10 other England players over Slade & JJ, while Ringrose is in the top 10 Irish players IMO.

Although I'd probably have Ringrose over both of them anyway if I had to pick

So would I. I would have had Henshaw ahead of Sexton on current form, and definitely on expected 2021 form.

by Collapse2005 Tue 14 May 2019, 2:29 pm

TightHEAD wrote:Goode at FB for me.

Well to be fair to him he is much improved and fair play to him for winning the award.

by BamBam Tue 14 May 2019, 2:29 pm

The Oracle wrote:And so it begins...

I can only apologise. I was intending to stop after laying out my thoughts on how the squad could be picked, then couldn't help myself from picking my 10 players from each side

You're just lucky I stopped before I started shedding all the inferior Welsh players Run

by Guest Tue 14 May 2019, 2:34 pm

BamBam wrote:
The Oracle wrote:And so it begins...

I can only apologise. I was intending to stop after laying out my thoughts on how the squad could be picked, then couldn't help myself from picking my 10 players from each side

You're just lucky I stopped before I started shedding all the inferior Welsh players

No AWJ! Surprise, surprise.

by BamBam Tue 14 May 2019, 2:37 pm

He's in my starting list of 10!!

by **LondonTiger** Tue 14 May 2019, 2:37 pm

The Oracle wrote:
BamBam wrote:
The Oracle wrote:And so it begins...

I can only apologise. I was intending to stop after laying out my thoughts on how the squad could be picked, then couldn't help myself from picking my 10 players from each side

You're just lucky I stopped before I started shedding all the inferior Welsh players

No AWJ! Surprise, surprise.

I would advise you to look again.

by Guest Tue 14 May 2019, 3:03 pm

BamBam wrote:He's in my starting list of 10!!

Apologies, I was looking for 'AWJ'. Pretty daft putting 'Jones' into a list of Welsh players and expecting us to know which one it is meant to be!!!

But yes, humblest apologies... cake

by BamBam Tue 14 May 2019, 3:07 pm

I just like keeping you on your toes

by tigertattie Tue 14 May 2019, 3:57 pm

BamBam wrote:Here's an idea, if its a squad of 36/40 whatever, start with a list of the best 9/10 players from each nation, divided equally. Then look at what that gives you in positional terms, where there are gaps and where players who were on the cusp of each country list can fill them.

After that, look at whether there is a clear case for any other players not included to be quite obviously a better fit for the squad.

I'll get flamed, but I'll give it a go, based on a squad of 40 as if it was going tomorrow and everyone was fit

Best 10 players
England - Mako, Sinckler, Itoje, Kruis, Curry, Billy, Farrell, Tuilagi, Daly, May
Ireland - Healy, Furlong, Ryan, POM, Leavy, Stander, Murray, Sexton, Ringrose, Stockdale
Wales - Evans, Owens, Jones, Navidi, Tipuric, Faletau, Biggar, JD2, Adams, Williams
Scotland - Brown, Mcinally, Nel, J Gray, Barclay, Watson, Russell, Jones, Taylor, Hogg

6 Props - Mako, Healy, Evans, Sinckler, Furlong, Nel
3 Hooker - Owens, Brown, McInally
5 Lock - Itoje, Kruis, Ryan, Jones, Gray
10 BR - Curry, Billy, POM, Leavy, Stander, Navidi, Tipuric, Faletau, Barclay, Watson

1 SH - Murray
4 FH - Farrell, Sexton, Biggar, Russell
5 C - Tuilagi, Ringrose, JD2, Jones, Taylor
6 B3 - Daly, May, Stockdale, Adams, Williams, Hogg

I'll leave it to someone else to decide how to balance out the squad , we need 1 more prop, 4 fewer back rowers, 2 more 9s and 1 less FH imo

It's a good idea but you are starting to move towards the quota system with this.

Also as yo ucan see, you need to pick the best players in the positions to get a full team. We'd need a Ben Youngs or an Ali Price to get the scrum half positions filled.

What this does show is that the home nations are blessed with backrows but we're struggling for magical 9s at the moment.

Billy V starting. He gets injured, any other team in the world would cry at the loss. Not the lions, they just roll out Stander instead!

What it also shows is that the star players can be overlooked by coaches in the name of "they'll do as I ask". Imagine Billy V is injured but the backup option is chosen to be Moriarty instead of Stander. Madness!

Anyway, with the core sqaud you've picked up there, the Boks would be looking at a 3 - 0 series whitewash with a good 10+ points difference in each game I'd say!

by BamBam Tue 14 May 2019, 4:10 pm

Was just intending to be a starting point to ensure each nation had a fair share of players! I'd be wanting the likes of George, Youngs, Henshaw, Henderson, Van Der Flier etc in over some of those who were in the above list

I do think it would be very odd if Scotland had such a low number of players that they've had in previous tours, I found it quite easy to put together a list of 10 players that I'd consider from Scotland!

by Guest Tue 14 May 2019, 4:46 pm

You might be on to something BamBam. I'm not for quotas at all but maybe the fairest thing (but then sport is intrinsically unfair so why should selection be fair?!) might be to ask each union to put forward 10 players each plus certain resources such as medical staff and backroom staff, kit men, etc. The head coach then has to do the best with what he's given. No coach would choose that though but it might be the 'fairest' way. The final make up of the team might still not be fair but at least the travelling contingent starts off on an even keel.

Maybe if they were overstocked in one position then the head coach could 'trade', so if everyone has put forward a scrum half and the Lions only want to take 3 then whoever was dropped that nation has to put forward another player. The next best player outside the 10 who just missed out originally.

Sounds awful and will still lead to loads of arguments but.... there you go!

by Guest Tue 14 May 2019, 4:48 pm

Of course, you'd be missing out on a lot of talent as Wales should always have about 15-20 players touring at least. Fact! Whistle

by alive555 Tue 14 May 2019, 5:17 pm

The Oracle wrote:Of course, you'd be missing out on a lot of talent as Wales should always have about 15-20 players touring at least. Fact!

it is a fact!! Gatland picked a total of 15 for the Lions tour of 2017, even though wales were second from last in the 6n!

by **LondonTiger** Tue 14 May 2019, 5:48 pm

alive555 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Of course, you'd be missing out on a lot of talent as Wales should always have about 15-20 players touring at least. Fact!

it is a fact!! Gatland picked a total of 15 for the Lions tour of 2017, even though wales were second from last in the 6n!

Only if you include the geographical 6 (admitting two were Scots)

by compelling and rich Tue 14 May 2019, 6:23 pm

not surprised at gatland being the choice. if were talking about who gets picked we going with what we would do or what we think gats would do. for instance there would be a few out there who'd like russel at ten but i cant see gats starting him

by mikey_dragon Tue 14 May 2019, 7:25 pm

eirebilly wrote:I have no issues with Gatland leading the Lions again. Think that he has been the best Lions coach I have seen. I don't care who he picks either as long as he (and he has done before) gets the job done.
I don't think that he is overly bias, he is probably guilty of selecting on familiarity and that is something I feel most coaches would do.

All that said, I was kind of hoping Stuart Lancaster got the job. I think he is an amazing coach and one that would form a decent squad.

Yeah you're right about that. Let's hope that in 2021 he also picks the right captain for the job, AWJ.

by mikey_dragon Tue 14 May 2019, 7:30 pm

tigertattie wrote:For me the Lions team/sqaud as a test 23 would be

Forwards
England, Scotland, Ireland
Wales, England
Ireland, England, Scotland

Backs
Ireland
Scotland
Ireland
Ireland
Wales
Ireland
Scotland

Ireland, Ireland, England
England
Ireland
Wales
Ireland

5 English
10 Irish
4 Scottish
3 Welsh

Now that is based purely on who I feel is the better player in each position. I'm not counting things like team dynamics or combinations such as you may want to play an all ireland front row on the bench for familiarity

Also this is not a Wum, it's genuinely who I feel are the better players.

If you believe that those nations have better back-row players than Wales that's an obvious wum, and a very poor one. Ireland have the most overrated back-row player in world rugby (POM).

by No 7&1/2 Wed 15 May 2019, 8:20 am

It's POM or Shingler as the best 6s we have at the moment.

by maestegmafia Wed 15 May 2019, 8:32 am

Lots of very good players injured at the moment that will hopefully be back for contention.

Wales currently missing Faletau, Nalvidi, Ellis Jenkins and Arran Shingler in the backrow alone and all these are likely Lions contenders. Ireland, England and Scotland have players out that will hopefully be fit and firing before the squad is announced too.

by tigertattie Wed 15 May 2019, 9:22 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
tigertattie wrote:For me the Lions team/sqaud as a test 23 would be

Forwards
England, Scotland, Ireland
Wales, England
Ireland, England, Scotland

Backs
Ireland
Scotland
Ireland
Ireland
Wales
Ireland
Scotland

Ireland, Ireland, England
England
Ireland
Wales
Ireland

5 English
10 Irish
4 Scottish
3 Welsh

Now that is based purely on who I feel is the better player in each position. I'm not counting things like team dynamics or combinations such as you may want to play an all ireland front row on the bench for familiarity

Also this is not a Wum, it's genuinely who I feel are the better players.

If you believe that those nations have better back-row players than Wales that's an obvious wum, and a very poor one. Ireland have the most overrated back-row player in world rugby (POM).

I'd hardly say POM is the most over-rated backrower in world rugby. I don't like the man but there is no disputing he's a good player!

My Backrow would be Stander at 6, Billy V at 8, Watson at 7 - I can't really think of any utter shambolic selections with that backrow at all - So no, my post is not a WUM.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 15 May 2019, 9:42 am

7 is going to be the best competition I'd say. Tipuric curry Underhill Leavy Watson all a great choice.

by BamBam Wed 15 May 2019, 9:51 am

May be some youngsters coming into contention after the RWC who could force there way into being considered too. Thinking of the likes of Hill/Dombrandt/Earl who are all being talked up as future options at 6 for England, who knows what kind of impact they'll make, I'm sure there's similar for the other nations too

by maestegmafia Wed 15 May 2019, 1:01 pm

I don’t think there are any certainties, all positions have plenty of depth within the home nations even if the squad were to be selected today.

A good number of those are all a way before retirement so we hopefully won’t lose many before the tour.

by maestegmafia Wed 15 May 2019, 1:04 pm

tigertattie wrote:

My Backrow would be Stander at 6, Billy V at 8, Watson at 7 - I can't really think of any utter shambolic selections with that backrow at all - So no, my post is not a WUM.

Watson is a very good call, a fantastic player. I hate it when he is against us. Changed the game in the six nations this year when he came on.

I would be grateful to cheer for him for a change.

by maestegmafia Wed 15 May 2019, 1:19 pm

The other large factor post RWC will be how the change in coaches effect the teams with England, Ireland and Wales all looking to have new men at the helm. This could be beneficial to Scotland’s hopes at next years six nations as new coaches may struggle to come to grips with a new job.

by eirebilly Wed 15 May 2019, 1:28 pm

tigertattie wrote:

I'd hardly say POM is the most over-rated backrower in world rugby. I don't like the man but there is no disputing he's a good player!

My Backrow would be Stander at 6, Billy V at 8, Watson at 7 - I can't really think of any utter shambolic selections with that backrow at all - So no, my post is not a WUM.

I would not have Stander at 6. He is an 8 and is currently very much out of form.

No doubting that POM is one of the best 6's in the world when on form but he too, is out of form.

by Collapse2005 Wed 15 May 2019, 1:36 pm

I always thought Stander was a better 6 myself. Id have Conan at 8, Stander at 6 and Leavy at 7 if everyone was fit for Ireland.

by Gooseberry Wed 15 May 2019, 2:22 pm

maestegmafia wrote:The other large factor post RWC will be how the change in coaches effect the teams with England,

Jones is under contract till mid 2021, which is maybe why he didnt get offered the Lions job.

by TightHEAD Wed 15 May 2019, 2:57 pm

Stander will come in handy as he can speak the lingo.

by robbo277 Wed 15 May 2019, 3:57 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
alive555 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Of course, you'd be missing out on a lot of talent as Wales should always have about 15-20 players touring at least. Fact!

it is a fact!! Gatland picked a total of 15 for the Lions tour of 2017, even though wales were second from last in the 6n!
Only if you include the geographical 6 (admitting two were Scots)

Rumours that Wales are penciling in a two test tour of Namibia in 2021 so far unconfirmed...

by mikey_dragon Wed 15 May 2019, 8:56 pm

tigertattie wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
tigertattie wrote:For me the Lions team/sqaud as a test 23 would be

Forwards
England, Scotland, Ireland
Wales, England
Ireland, England, Scotland

Backs
Ireland
Scotland
Ireland
Ireland
Wales
Ireland
Scotland

Ireland, Ireland, England
England
Ireland
Wales
Ireland

5 English
10 Irish
4 Scottish
3 Welsh

Now that is based purely on who I feel is the better player in each position. I'm not counting things like team dynamics or combinations such as you may want to play an all ireland front row on the bench for familiarity

Also this is not a Wum, it's genuinely who I feel are the better players.

If you believe that those nations have better back-row players than Wales that's an obvious wum, and a very poor one. Ireland have the most overrated back-row player in world rugby (POM).

I'd hardly say POM is the most over-rated backrower in world rugby. I don't like the man but there is no disputing he's a good player!

My Backrow would be Stander at 6, Billy V at 8, Watson at 7 - I can't really think of any utter shambolic selections with that backrow at all - So no, my post is not a WUM.

Well the fact that you lot are still crying over representation on the 2017 tour to NZ because you finished higher than Wales, only to then select more Scottish than Welsh players after Wales just won the recent tournament through being undefeated, yeah that's a poor wum. One welsh player in the pack Rolling Eyes

POM was good early in his career, but now I've never seen someone blow so hot and cold. That's just a liability. I assumed it POM was your choce at 6 but no even worse it's Stander. Your back-row selection contains two blunt instruments, so it's quite shambolic. I would only agree with Billy V at 8. As recently proven Wales 2nd choice back-row was better than all the rest in the 6N so your entire thought process is utterly shambolic.

by mikey_dragon Wed 15 May 2019, 9:00 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:I always thought Stander was a better 6 myself. Id have Conan at 8, Stander at 6 and Leavy at 7 if everyone was fit for Ireland.

Since Heaslip retired it seems Ireland's back-row options have really regressed, especially with POM still being rated as one of the best. You're certainly missing a trick by not having Beirne at 6. Leavy and VDF are very good options on the other side. Not so sure about Conan yet. Looks good for Leinster but not great.

by Collapse2005 Wed 15 May 2019, 9:14 pm

The backrow is fine. I wouldnt pick Pom myself but lots would including JS so lets see.

by **BigGee** Wed 15 May 2019, 10:25 pm

As i said before, the Lions tour is two years away and a lot of rugby remains to be played by then.

The backrow that you would pick now will not be the backrow that gets picked in two years time, in particular, there are a lot of young guns starting to find their way in Test rugby who could easily be in contention by then, Underhill, Curry, Ellias, Ritchie to name but a few, there may well be others that we have not even heard of yet.

The composition of the 2021 Lions is all a discussion for another day (or even year)

by Cyril Wed 15 May 2019, 11:45 pm

As of now the only shoo-ins are:

Both Vunipolas, Farrell and Williams.

Sarries would smash SA right now, but I’m sure the Boks will improve greatly in two years. Looking good for England as Sarries go from strength to strength and the core (probably touching on half the side) come from there).

by alive555 Thu 16 May 2019, 12:44 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
tigertattie wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
tigertattie wrote:For me the Lions team/sqaud as a test 23 would be

Forwards
England, Scotland, Ireland
Wales, England
Ireland, England, Scotland

Backs
Ireland
Scotland
Ireland
Ireland
Wales
Ireland
Scotland

Ireland, Ireland, England
England
Ireland
Wales
Ireland

5 English
10 Irish
4 Scottish
3 Welsh

Now that is based purely on who I feel is the better player in each position. I'm not counting things like team dynamics or combinations such as you may want to play an all ireland front row on the bench for familiarity

Also this is not a Wum, it's genuinely who I feel are the better players.

If you believe that those nations have better back-row players than Wales that's an obvious wum, and a very poor one. Ireland have the most overrated back-row player in world rugby (POM).

I'd hardly say POM is the most over-rated backrower in world rugby. I don't like the man but there is no disputing he's a good player!

My Backrow would be Stander at 6, Billy V at 8, Watson at 7 - I can't really think of any utter shambolic selections with that backrow at all - So no, my post is not a WUM.

Well the fact that you lot are still crying over representation on the 2017 tour to NZ because you finished higher than Wales, only to then select more Scottish than Welsh players after Wales just won the recent tournament through being undefeated, yeah that's a poor wum. One welsh player in the pack

POM was good early in his career, but now I've never seen someone blow so hot and cold. That's just a liability. I assumed it POM was your choce at 6 but no even worse it's Stander. Your back-row selection contains two blunt instruments, so it's quite shambolic. I would only agree with Billy V at 8. As recently proven Wales 2nd choice back-row was better than all the rest in the 6N so your entire thought process is utterly shambolic.

No need to concern yourself as the fact wales can come in second from last in the 6n, and get still get 10 in the initial squad tells you Gatland will pick on who he knows. Form is not a factor.

by Cyril Thu 16 May 2019, 1:03 am

Can people please learn how to use the quoting function on this forum! It’s not rocket science! Smile

by Pie Thu 16 May 2019, 2:54 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I assume you mean win rather than want? The 6 nations isn't a league so doesn't necessarily produce the best team as winner as we've seen this year. As to style of play I have no issue with how Wales play. It's a way they're forced into fair play.
In so far as the lions Gatland and his coaches haven't been great at bringing teams together stodgy bad picks player wise and far too slow to adapt.
Hey you're the one saying silly things maes. I can't help that.

by mikey_dragon Thu 16 May 2019, 5:11 am

alive555 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
tigertattie wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
tigertattie wrote:For me the Lions team/sqaud as a test 23 would be

Forwards
England, Scotland, Ireland
Wales, England
Ireland, England, Scotland

Backs
Ireland
Scotland
Ireland
Ireland
Wales
Ireland
Scotland

Ireland, Ireland, England
England
Ireland
Wales
Ireland

5 English
10 Irish
4 Scottish
3 Welsh

Now that is based purely on who I feel is the better player in each position. I'm not counting things like team dynamics or combinations such as you may want to play an all ireland front row on the bench for familiarity

Also this is not a Wum, it's genuinely who I feel are the better players.

If you believe that those nations have better back-row players than Wales that's an obvious wum, and a very poor one. Ireland have the most overrated back-row player in world rugby (POM).

I'd hardly say POM is the most over-rated backrower in world rugby. I don't like the man but there is no disputing he's a good player!

My Backrow would be Stander at 6, Billy V at 8, Watson at 7 - I can't really think of any utter shambolic selections with that backrow at all - So no, my post is not a WUM.

Well the fact that you lot are still crying over representation on the 2017 tour to NZ because you finished higher than Wales, only to then select more Scottish than Welsh players after Wales just won the recent tournament through being undefeated, yeah that's a poor wum. One welsh player in the pack

POM was good early in his career, but now I've never seen someone blow so hot and cold. That's just a liability. I assumed it POM was your choce at 6 but no even worse it's Stander. Your back-row selection contains two blunt instruments, so it's quite shambolic. I would only agree with Billy V at 8. As recently proven Wales 2nd choice back-row was better than all the rest in the 6N so your entire thought process is utterly shambolic.

No need to concern yourself as the fact wales can come in second from last in the 6n, and get still get 10 in the initial squad tells you Gatland will pick on who he knows. Form is not a factor.

Still bitter over it after all these years. That tour looked fine to me, like the previous one Gatland took care of. Your buddy just picked a bunch of Scottish players in his Lions team, and two from the Grand Slam winning team. Not sure what's with all the Irish players either. Weird that you're not crying over that but still crying over a selection from years ago that turned out good.

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