Ireland WC

First topic message reminder :

Bit early i know.
Will update squads etc once they are announced.
And add the fixtures when I get a spare 10 mins.

Will Addison has been called up to the training squad

I think Earls is quite prolific myself and Larmor of the bench can be too but yes Stockdale is the most likely to score tries out of nothing.

Having 4 class centres is a real nice place to be.

Addison at 15 would give our backs a whole new threat.

Stockdale is big and physical, fast and just seems to be a magician for the sniff of a try when in the right form/mental state...and when the game has fire enough to get his blood up.  Another plus is that he backs himself to make a splash.  You might argue that individualism in Joe Schmidt's side is a big no-no, and that Zebo suffered for his individualist exuberance...but I like to see backs hungry for that which is really their very job...scoring tries.  If they play too much to the hymn book of obedient servants to 'safety' and 'system' and team dynamics then we won't get the breaks that really charge a team up, and a good individualist try really stirs a team and charges the adrenaline reserves.

BUT.... having said all that about Stockdale.... and I'd certainly want him in the plane.  I think Conway is the unsung back in the Irish setup. He has all the attributes I want to see in a wing back.  In a way he reminds me of Denis Hickey.  Studious, resilient, always on, always driving to up the tempo, not considered spectacular but can get amazing gains from smart albeit non-showy rugby.  Not considered a team 'star' but for me in this Irish side, a player that I'd always have in there.  Sometimes both Stockdale and Earls try to 'impress' too much or perhaps too often.  When it works lovely!... but Conway is more calculating with a quick mind for effective go forward rugby - less erratic. I like his temperament.

Ah Jesus, Zebo didn't suffer at all he choose to go to France. He was getting selected up until his departure. Stockdale is a better player anyway.

I agree Conway is looking good.

I still think Addison will be the suprise inclusion.
And he will be a revelation for our backs

Stranger things have happened.

Collapse2005 wrote:Ah Jesus, Zebo didn't suffer at all he choose to go to France. He was getting selected up until his departure. Stockdale is a better player anyway.

I agree Conway is looking good.

Suffered as in rubbed up Joe the wrong way in thinking the system was less important than his instinctive darts, feints, back kicks and scoring symbology. Maybe I just have put the word in inverted commas to give the right impression... "suffered"

6 months ago I think many of us had Addison marked down for a spot in the squad but due to injury he has faded out of the picture. I think he's our only genuine utility back and could go to cover 13 and 15, nudging out C Farrell most likely.

Agree with the comments on Conway, while I think Earls and Stockdale have had a brilliant couple of seasons AC has possibly become the most underrated player in Ireland. I'd have no problem with him starting anywhere in the back 3 and he looks slightly more capable than Larmour atm. I'm surprised Schmidt hasn't used him more as he seems to do all the winger things Schmidt loves.

SecretFly wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Ah Jesus, Zebo didn't suffer at all he choose to go to France. He was getting selected up until his departure. Stockdale is a better player anyway.

I agree Conway is looking good.

Suffered as in rubbed up Joe the wrong way in thinking the system was less important than his instinctive darts, feints, back kicks and scoring symbology.  Maybe I just have put the word in inverted commas to give the right impression... "suffered"

Why do you think he rubbed Joe up the wrong way? Joe kept picking him.

carpet baboon wrote:I still think Addison will be the suprise inclusion.
And he will be a revelation for our backs

Perhaps.  But we always base what we think might happen when new blood shows up on their Provincial exploits (obviously)..and then we find the rigid 'system' at International kinda buries that which we hoped might excel.... Larmour might be a recent example but certainly not a unique example.
I remember when Sexton became a regular feature.  We were all hoping his Leinster sensibilities would show a marked difference in style from Ronan's kick away antics ( not knocking them or Roman... those were our tactics). Anyway, turned out Sexton was constrained by the same tactics.  It didn't look a whole lot different when he bedded down.
We've had a quite a few 'revelation' hopes in the past, and not so past, and nothing ever brings the full sparkle of hope to fruition - Except perhaps for Stockdale.  He still could be our Trump card if in the right zone in Japan.

Collapse2005 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Ah Jesus, Zebo didn't suffer at all he choose to go to France. He was getting selected up until his departure. Stockdale is a better player anyway.

I agree Conway is looking good.

Suffered as in rubbed up Joe the wrong way in thinking the system was less important than his instinctive darts, feints, back kicks and scoring symbology.  Maybe I just have put the word in inverted commas to give the right impression... "suffered"

Why do you think he rubbed Joe up the wrong way? Joe kept picking him.

Look...it's no secret that Zebo and his chattering pals down Munster way left us in no doubt that Lord Zebo felt Joe's methods, and a clash of temperaments/theories on good practice for skilled players, constrained his ability to play his best rugby...in brief, Zebo and his friends (including his then coach at Munster) criticised Joe for cramping Zebo's style.
It's no secret that Zebo and Schmidt had clashes of opinion through their time.  We're not going to rewrite an already well documented history.

First I heard of it (other than fan theories)

I'll let Rodders fill you in on the detail.

I wonder what impact it might have that Rassie is quite familiar with Irish rugby if Ireland play SA in the quarters. Does he know too much?

Anyway...back to Larmour.

What happened that kid? The curse of Ireland International shirt strikes again? Will he gain enough self belief to truly let the afterburners of magic, that he has proven capable of, be released at some stage in the future.

I know the answer that'll come back at me...... Space and the lack of if at International level. I happen to see loads of space though in Irish games that Irish players choose not to utilise for some reason....

Not so fast, I got my question in first.

Collapse2005 wrote:I wonder what impact it might have that Rassie is quite familiar with Irish rugby if Ireland play SA in the quarters. Does he know too much?  

He does if Ireland continue to play a version of Munster rugby.

Collapse2005 wrote:Not so fast, I got my question in first.

So you did, Guns. I didn't see if there before posting. Proceeed

Ha, I still think we would beat SA.

Guns, every presumption you make about who we might beat necessitates that Ireland's form Markedly improves from what it has been to date this year.

I'd like to feel we were capable of beating any side we need to beat to actually win a World Cup.  A year ago we were there or thereabouts in that territory, capable of beating any side.

I'll need to see real proof that we are back in that mood before suggesting we're capable of beating anyone of note.  A team doesn't just become journeymen overnight is the way we usually walk ourselves out of gloom talk.  I tend to always try to hope that Joe is holding all his cards close now for his final swan song.

So, that's the question Guns.  Are you confident our form through the year so far is not True form, is prepatory smokes and mirrors for the WC assault itself?  If so, then yes...we have it in us to beat SA, and others besides.  But if we truly are struggling to get back to the rhythm of 2018 in intensity and composure and confidence then..... believing we can beat SA or other top sides is a leap of faith.

I don't mind the leaps of faith but I'd prefer to see practical examples of Ireland returning  to their more belligerent selves.  Next game is early enough for me.  I want to see the side that would beat SA or Australia, or New Zealand..... or Wales.

SecretFly wrote:Guns, every presumption you make about who we might beat necessitates that Ireland's form Markedly improves from what it has been to date this year.

I'd like to feel we were capable of beating any side we need to beat to actually win a World Cup.  A year ago we were there or thereabouts in that territory, capable of beating any side.

I'll need to see real proof that we are back in that mood before suggesting we're capable of beating anyone of note.  A team doesn't just become journeymen overnight is the way we usually walk ourselves out of gloom talk.  I tend to always try to hope that Joe is holding all his cards close now for his final swan song.

So, that's the question Guns.  Are you confident our form through the year so far is not True form, is prepatory smokes and mirrors for the WC assault itself?  If so, then yes...we have it in us to beat SA, and others besides.  But if we truly are struggling to get back to the rhythm of 2018 in intensity and composure and confidence then..... believing we can beat SA or other top sides is a leap of faith.

I don't mind the leaps of faith but I'd prefer to see practical examples of Ireland returning  to their more belligerent selves.  Next game is early enough for me.  I want to see the side that would beat SA or Australia, or New Zealand..... or Wales.

Im not sure I agree with you on that. We have a much better win loss record than SA over the last couple of years. Since 2018 they have won about 55% of their games while we have won about 85%. Yes they have improved but the whole basis of their improvement revolves around their winning the diluted version of the rugby championship which required 2 wins and a draw against sides including themselves that were experimenting a bit. Good achievement but the jury is still out for me given how bad they were prior to that.

Also all teams in the top 8 have suffered hammerings in the last while so I don't see any side as being much better than us right now. Wales is the only team whose form has been significantly better than ours.

I still want to see close to an A Grade, no-prisoners-taken, fully ruthless Irish performance either for England or one of the Welsh games.  If we're capable of winning a WC, we have to prove it once in at least one of those games.  
I've seen too many excuses over the years about the warmups only to have the mood leak into the WC itself.."oh they're just warmups.  Nothing to see here.  We'll be much better in WC."
I need evidence we're still in winning territory.  Joe begged fans not to write them off after 6N.  He knew the optics didn't look great.  He hinted that maybe they weren't giving it all.  Well maybe.  So far though, one warmup down, the optics are still dodgy.

Cyril wrote:Great reply, Guns

I agree that we don’t want any players injured before the RWC, but let’s cut out the snide comments, eh?

But if only you could

I can't see Ireland doing Eng at home as I expect after losing in Cardiff even with his bench stacked with Lions Eddie will put out his strongest side. However if Eng haven't learned to defend their wider channels and stay so direct and narrow then Ireland have the backs to exploit very quick ball.

SecretFly wrote:I still want to see close to an A Grade, no-prisoners-taken, fully ruthless Irish performance either for England or one of the Welsh games.  If we're capable of winning a WC, we have to prove it once in at least one of those games.  
I've seen too many excuses over the years about the warmups only to have the mood leak into the WC itself.."oh they're just warmups.  Nothing to see here.  We'll be much better in WC."
I need evidence we're still in winning territory.  Joe begged fans not to write them off after 6N.  He knew the optics didn't look great.  He hinted that maybe they weren't giving it all.  Well maybe.  So far though, one warmup down, the optics are still dodgy.

Im a bit more relaxed than you. warm ups dont mean that much in my view at least in terms of the result. I think there are other more important goals.

Personally Id rather we save our knock out punch for the championship rounds.

Pie wrote:I can't see Ireland doing Eng at home as I expect after losing in Cardiff even with his bench stacked with Lions Eddie will put out his strongest side. However if Eng haven't learned to defend their wider channels and stay so direct and narrow then Ireland have the backs to exploit very quick ball.

Clive Woodward thinks Ford should start at 9.

Collapse2005 wrote:
Im a bit more relaxed than you. warm ups dont mean that much in my view.

.... and we've always underperformed at WCs.  So I don't see the lack of a connection between warmup attitude and WC performance.

I think sometimes that warmup dismissers look too much at Provincial routines, whereby a slow start in Autumn/Winter can be reeled back in by the end of the season the following year.  Well, there isn't that time in a WC situation to.... well, warm up.  
Perhaps traditionally final week of WC is when Ireland have warmed up sufficiently to hit their strides.  Pity that they're usually back in their own homes by then.

I dont think we lost quarter finals of world cups because we didnt do well in warm up games. In the last two RWCs we have perfermed very well in the pools with our first RWC wins v France and Oz in consecutive RWCs.

The main reason in my view for some of our failures is not having enough squad depth more than anything, we havent lasted until the KO rounds. I think we are better placed now albeit not perfect but yet who doesnt have gaps in their depth. Even NZ do.

Obviously you want to avoid the sort of hammering Scotland were handed last week but that aside I really wouldn't worry about the results of these warm ups. If I recall correctly we lost all 4 warm up games under Kidney in 2011 before the group stage where we finished 1st and beat Australia (I know it ended in another QF defeat but we were unquestionably 'warm' by then).

On the point Fly has been making - I really doubt Joe was 'holding back' in the 6N this year. Unfortunately I can't see how being beaten up physically by England, making countless handling errors vs Italy and conceding penalty after penalty against Wales was part of some deliberate masterplan.

Every Joes side has had set backs any bounced back from them. Why would this side be any different?

Joe was hammered in his first test v Australia at home then came within seconds of beating NZ. Things can change very quickly in rugby.

England came 5th in last years 6 nations and it wasnt that long ago that NZ beat SA 60-0.

Perhaps.  I see squad intensity as more important than this idea of certain players v other players.  I think if a squad us in the mood, you don't feel the impact of losses as much.

Plus, I remember alway..always, Ireland selecting games to offer themselves to in pool stages.  Others treated casually with walk-about rugby.  So even then, in pool stages, Ireland always has this attitude that they can hold off full intensity and then just press the button and it all works smoothly.  Doesn't work that way in practice.

Anyway, we will see.  I hope you are more right than I am, Guns.  I'm tired of our repeating history of hope and fail.

SecretFly wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:I still think Addison will be the suprise inclusion.
And he will be a revelation for our backs

Perhaps.  But we always base what we think might happen when new blood shows up on their Provincial exploits (obviously)..and then we find the rigid 'system' at International kinda buries that which we hoped might excel.... Larmour might be a recent example but certainly not a unique example.
I remember when Sexton became a regular feature.  We were all hoping his Leinster sensibilities would show a marked difference in style from Ronan's kick away antics ( not knocking them or Roman... those were our tactics). Anyway, turned out Sexton was constrained by the same tactics.  It didn't look a whole lot different when he bedded down.  
We've had a quite a few 'revelation' hopes in the past, and not so past, and nothing ever brings the full sparkle of hope to fruition - Except perhaps for Stockdale.  He still could be our Trump card if in the right zone in Japan.

My reasons for believing Addison will go the the world cup.

As soon as he signed for Ulster Joe asked him to come along to the tour to Australia.
He's been picked for every squad since when he's been fit.
He is, as far as I'm aware, the only person added to Joe's world cup training squad (after a week of pre season with Ulster to prove his fitness)
It's been mentioned that he has impressed in camp.
If (big if) he impress in the next couple of games I can see his ability to play 15,13 and probably wing get him a spot.

Looks like Byrne will start at 10 and not Carty.

I actually think Ireland are in a nice enough position having beat everyone in this world cup cycle and yet no one is really talking about them. Seems almost ideal

Collapse2005 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Guns, every presumption you make about who we might beat necessitates that Ireland's form Markedly improves from what it has been to date this year.

I'd like to feel we were capable of beating any side we need to beat to actually win a World Cup.  A year ago we were there or thereabouts in that territory, capable of beating any side.

I'll need to see real proof that we are back in that mood before suggesting we're capable of beating anyone of note.  A team doesn't just become journeymen overnight is the way we usually walk ourselves out of gloom talk.  I tend to always try to hope that Joe is holding all his cards close now for his final swan song.

So, that's the question Guns.  Are you confident our form through the year so far is not True form, is prepatory smokes and mirrors for the WC assault itself?  If so, then yes...we have it in us to beat SA, and others besides.  But if we truly are struggling to get back to the rhythm of 2018 in intensity and composure and confidence then..... believing we can beat SA or other top sides is a leap of faith.

I don't mind the leaps of faith but I'd prefer to see practical examples of Ireland returning  to their more belligerent selves.  Next game is early enough for me.  I want to see the side that would beat SA or Australia, or New Zealand..... or Wales.

Im not sure I agree with you on that. We have a much better win loss record than SA over the last couple of years. Since 2018 they have won about 55% of their games while we have won about 85%. Yes they have improved but the whole basis of their improvement revolves around their winning the diluted version of the rugby championship which required 2 wins and a draw against sides including themselves that were experimenting a bit. Good achievement but the jury is still out for me given how bad they were prior to that.

Also all teams in the top 8 have suffered hammerings in the last while so I don't see any side as being much better than us right now. Wales is the only team whose form has been significantly better than ours.

Well SA played a practical B side against Oz as most of their main squad were on route to NZ. And a virtual C side versus the Pumas in the friendly.
A draw here against us . We lost to and were thrashed by Oz so hard to say where oz is at.
If the boks is not a strong side they certainly have depth now.
I think everyones holding cards up their sleeve to some degree.

I agree Taylorman. I does look like SA have improved a lot. However, all Im saying is it hard to tell just how good they are yet from 3 games especially given what preceded those three games was pretty average.

I feel that dropping Jantjies for Pollard has made a huge difference. Not that Jantjies is a bad player but Pollard is much better and growing. He is only 25 and might be the best out half of 2019 so far.

Interestingly there are only two sides Pollard has never won against. Know who they are?

SecretFly wrote:Anyway...back to Larmour.

What happened that kid?  The curse of Ireland International shirt strikes again?  Will he gain enough self belief to truly let the afterburners of magic, that he has proven capable of, be released at some stage in the future.

I know the answer that'll come back at me...... Space and the lack of if at International level.  I happen to see loads of space though in Irish games that Irish players choose not to utilise for some reason....

I actually don't think anything happened him but the expectations based on performances a club and underage level aren't realistic. I recall Conway looked unstoppable at U-20s as well, lightening quick and bursting through tackles but it doesn't necessarily translate to international level. Gilroy is another example.

He's shown glimpses of what he can do, he's got good acceleration and a good step but unlike the likes of Cullen or Jason Robinson, he seems to favour stepping of one foot only and doesn't have great straight line speed which makes him easier to mark and shut down.

That said if he can add a few more facets, the chip and chase and offloading more he will keep defenders guessing a bit and will offer a lot more threat in attack.

Regarding Addison, I think Joe is a big fan and he would have gone but he must be an outside bet now with all the rugby he has missed this season.

I think Larmor has done alright myself. I don't think he will ever be a superstar like Stockdale but I think he is playing at a decent level but to be fair there is plenty of room for improvement too.

Im sure he will be but I hope Conway is selected for the squad. When you have a squad with guys like Earls, Conway, Stockdale, Ringrose, Larmor and Murray there is in my view a good stock of try scoring threats.

It'll be a relief when Joe finishes up and the moaners on this site no longer have to complain about him, I'm sure at that stage everyone will be content and happy.

If we win a game, it's only a warmup and it doesn't matter.  If we lose it's a disaster.  If it's a decent performance then we're showing our hand to the opposition.  If it's a poor performance, we're fooked. Pure negativity. Queue the personal slights, attacks and strawman binary repostes.

Rinse, lather and repeat.

First time in a while back onto this site, you could build a bot to produce 90% of the content here, just replace the competition name according to time of the year and team/player names off a randomiser.  Throw in a handful of 'refs are terrible' and Nigel Owens is amazing, deliberately mess up speling now and then, could anyone tell the difference?

thebandwagonsociety wrote:It'll be a relief when Joe finishes up and the moaners on this site no longer have to complain about him, I'm sure at that stage everyone will be content and happy.

If we win a game, it's only a warmup and it doesn't matter.  If we lose it's a disaster.  If it's a decent performance then we're showing our hand to the opposition.  If it's a poor performance, we're fooked. Pure negativity. Queue the personal slights, attacks and strawman binary repostes.

Rinse, lather and repeat.

First time in a while back onto this site, you could build a bot to produce 90% of the content here, just replace the competition name according to time of the year and team/player names off a randomiser.  Throw in a handful of 'refs are terrible' and Nigel Owens is amazing, deliberately mess up speling now and then, could anyone tell the difference?

I agree its always one extreme to the next with Schmidt. I don't get the instant doom and gloom every time we lose. Ireland will probably always experience ups and downs.

I'm not a fan of Owens really. Are you?

IRELAND: Rob Kearney; Jordan Larmour, Garry Ringrose, Bundee Aki, Jacob Stockdale; Ross Byrne, Conor Murray; Cian Healy, Rory Best, Tadhg Furlong; Iain Henderson, Jean Kleyn; Peter O’Mahony, Josh van der Flier, CJ Stander.

Replacements: Sean Cronin, Jack McGrath, Andrew Porter, Devin Toner, Tadhg Beirne, Luke McGrath, Jack Carty, Andrew Conway.

That's a decent side although I am not sure I would be starting Kearney, would prefer that he be kept in wraps until the RWC. Ireland need him fit in big games.

I understand the need for him to get in the rhythm but a player of his quality hits the ground running in big matches.

True

carpet baboon wrote:Backline for Saturday (my guess having seen a couple of pics on the of internet from today's training)

Murray
Bryne
Stockdale
Aki
Ringtones
???? Probably earls
Addison

Forwards

8 big lads

Well I got 9 to 13 right.

I have changed my mind Addison won't go. It will be Conway

thebandwagonsociety wrote:It'll be a relief when Joe finishes up and the moaners on this site no longer have to complain about him, I'm sure at that stage everyone will be content and happy.

Sure, we'll be on to Farrell then.  As you suggest, life is never ending... well at least for another few hundred years at least...we hope!   We end, but sport and moaners will outlive all of us. Comforting thought.

Solution?

Let's talk Nuclear Physics rather than rugby when we come to our favourite rugby sites to moan.  Might work, bandwagon  

England team:

Marler, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Kruis, Curry, Underhill, Vunipola
Youngs, Ford, May, Farrell, Tuilagi, Cokanasiga, Daly

Ireland are up against it there.  BIG physical game ahead if they want to stay in it.

I'm not in favour of these Big Hitting contests right before a WC actually, but I do want full engagement whenever we DO face these top sides.  Feels like this will get hot.

On current evidence of form plus location, England should win.  If they run riot then that would be a big psychological hurdle for the Irish team despite any words of reassurance post game.  Jones won't mind denting the confidence further of a seasonal rival. I think they'll be out to make a breathless point after the Welsh game ("see Wales? We weren't even in third gear with you guys".)

Big plus for Ireland...in the land of critical assessment... continues to be their try scoring ability even when playing really bad rugby.  It's uncanny how cute they are in the claustrophobic tight whilst leaving so much easier territory unexploited.  I'm always led to the belief that the space is always noted but kept in storage for the metaphorical rainy (important) days.  So as I keep saying, if they really can hit a vein of good confident form and more determination to be creative in space discovery...then Ireland really have the potential to pack a punch on the scoreboard.

SecretFly wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:It'll be a relief when Joe finishes up and the moaners on this site no longer have to complain about him, I'm sure at that stage everyone will be content and happy.

Sure, we'll be on to Farrell then.  As you suggest, life is never ending... well at least for another few hundred years at least...we hope!   We end, but sport and moaners will outlive all of us.  Comforting thought.

Solution?

Let's talk Nuclear Physics rather than rugby when we come to our favourite rugby sites to moan.  Might work, bandwagon  

The site is good when it highlights strengths, weaknesses of players, systems, structures. When you gain a better understanding into the reasoning behind selections, the approach. It used to be much better for that, there is a lot less now though. I used to navigate the threads to get past the noise and pick up the interesting items/ new info. Read a post that challenges my preconceptions and puts a valid argument forward that suggests I should change my view. Unfortunately it feels like you have to get past the noise only to find more noise in the way.

I think after the RWC is a good time for Schmidt to move on anyway even if there wasn't a constant din of criticism and whinging around his methods and selections. He has had a good run and done a lot of Irish rugby, maybe fresh thinking and direction will be a good thing before Schmidt loses motivation.

Also word on the street is that Dave Kearney has been outrageously good in training.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

The site is good when it highlights strengths, weaknesses of players, systems, structures.  When you gain a better understanding into the reasoning behind selections, the approach.  It used to be much better for that, there is a lot less now though.  I used to navigate the threads to get past the noise and pick up the interesting items/ new info. Read a post that challenges my preconceptions and puts a valid argument forward that suggests I should change my view.  Unfortunately it feels like you have to get past the noise only to find more noise in the way.

It's numbers.  The lack of numbers.  The dwindling numbers on this site, in terms of rugby anyway.

On any site there should be a balance in my view.  A place for the esoteric microscopic analysis of teams and individual players ( the extended fantasy league discussions if you will) ... but also there should be a place for other kinds of rugby lovers.  After all, you walk into a pub game day and you can see the fun side of it in action.  The jokes, the laughs, the repartee, the wumming.  Not everyone wants to be clinical and serious about the sport they love all the time.

The dwindling numbers here means that the esoteric guys and the guys who enjoy the fun/rivalry/horseplay are clashing more often.  They don't get along too well.  They annoy each other to a degree.

That's all it is.  Lion and hyenas being forced to share the one little pub.  There's bound to be clashes of personality.