Brexit

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Tea anyone?

Complete switch on the odds now, with it being 4/9 that the deal *doesn’t* pass in a vote.

Of course, the Letwin Amendment could mean no vote at all today.

The bookies track record isn’t great

Well it doesn’t look as though we’ll be having a vote on the withdrawal agreement anyway, as the Letwin amendment looks as though it’ll pass.

What I do think is it's a bit pathetic to threaten "if you don't back this, it's a no deal" when it never has to be. It's so disingenuous. If you want a no deal, well that's your prerogative, but the gall to threaten it as a bad thing when you can definitely stop it is madness.

Letwin passes by 16

Looks like the DUP swinging behind the Letwin amendment was crucial!

No vote on the Withdrawal Agreement. Great listening on the World Service as they summed up by saying they have no idea what will really happen next, outside a chat with the EU

It will be put to a vote in the next six days. More discussions with the EU. More tedious posturing. The chances of no deal on the 31st of October have increased. The chances of an extension to January have also increased, which would be calamitous for the Tory Party.

So by law Johnson now has to request an extension. What happens if he doesnt?

Duty281 wrote:It will be put to a vote in the next six days. More discussions with the EU. More tedious posturing. The chances of no deal on the 31st of October have increased. The chances of an extension to January have also increased, which would be calamitous for the Tory Party.

If there is an extension until January is it really so calamitous?

For me a viable way forward is to (if an extension to January happens) hold a General Election ASAP. It gives the public a sort of chance to choose what they want to happen next. If they vote the Tories back in with a majority then the deal will get voted through. However, if Labour win or form a coalition government then the ball is in their court to try to do things their way - be that through putting it back to the people or whatever.

Starmer dismantling Barclay and the government just makes me sad about the standard of british politics at the moment.

So WTF is going on now?

What we know:
a) Bulk of the conservatives want Brexit (they are responsible for introducing this into politics)
b) Lib Dems want No Brexit.
c) SNP want Scottish Independence.
d) DUP want to be treated exactly like the rest of the UK
e) Labour want to implement a Marxist-Socialist Regime in Britain under old school socialist Corbyn.

Why can't Labour be a "normal" party? When Britain needs a proper opposition party the Labour party seems to have gone missing.

TwisT wrote: ... I am fearful what the consequences will be if [a general election] happens [without Brexit being resolved]. You are basically electing the government on their Brexit position and nothing more. Could potentially, but maybe unlikely, lead to a Brexit party v Lib Dem shoot out.

If the next general election occurs prior to Brexit being resolved then I am basically going to vote for whatever party is clear about remaining or offering another referendum. Except I don't think I could vote for the current Labour Party. A balance of two "evils" - at least that is how I see it. This is just my personal choice, if I get a choice. Definitely the next General Election will be a single issue election if it occurs without Brexit being resolved.

BBC Headline: UK will leave EU this month, ministers insist
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50115151

Illegal or loophole or irresponsible journalism or end of days scenario (for those wanting to remain, not wanting a no deal, not wanting a rushed deal)?

Considering Boris said hed rather be dead in a ditch than request an extension, and he requested an extension last night, it's all bluster for the benefit of leavers watching.

Labour now coming to a compromise of a referendum on Boris' deal.

Starmer was fantastic yesterday.

GSC wrote:Considering Boris said hed rather be dead in a ditch than request an extension, and he requested an extension last night, it's all bluster for the benefit of leavers watching.

Labour now coming to a compromise of a referendum on Boris' deal.

Referendum on Boris' deal would probably be the the most "sensible" solution to the drawn out mess...

But I can't see a mechanism for getting that . More likely headed for an extension and an election - with no iron clad guarantee even that will break the deadlock.

it's an amendment coming next week, Starmer said Labour will back it

No name Bertie wrote:

TwisT wrote: ... I am fearful what the consequences will be if [a general election] happens [without Brexit being resolved].  You are basically electing the government on their Brexit position and nothing more.   Could potentially, but maybe unlikely, lead to a Brexit party v Lib Dem shoot out.

If the next general election occurs prior to Brexit being resolved then I am basically going to vote for whatever party is clear about remaining or offering another referendum.   Except I don't think I could vote for the current Labour Party.  A balance of two "evils" - at least that is how I see it.  This is just my personal choice, if I get a choice.  Definitely the next General Election will be a single issue election if it occurs without Brexit being resolved.

Then we could get Farage as PM as he will be the definite Brexit vote? I don't joke.....this scenario falls into the same category as when the majority thought Trump wouldn't be President, Boris wouldn't be PM and that we would all vote Remain.

TwisT wrote:

No name Bertie wrote:

TwisT wrote: ... I am fearful what the consequences will be if [a general election] happens [without Brexit being resolved].  You are basically electing the government on their Brexit position and nothing more.   Could potentially, but maybe unlikely, lead to a Brexit party v Lib Dem shoot out.

If the next general election occurs prior to Brexit being resolved then I am basically going to vote for whatever party is clear about remaining or offering another referendum.   Except I don't think I could vote for the current Labour Party.  A balance of two "evils" - at least that is how I see it.  This is just my personal choice, if I get a choice.  Definitely the next General Election will be a single issue election if it occurs without Brexit being resolved.

Then we could get Farage as PM as he will be the definite Brexit vote? I don't joke.....this scenario falls into the same category as when the majority thought Trump wouldn't be President, Boris wouldn't be PM and that we would all vote Remain.

The BP would need to return the largest # of MPs for that to happen. Can't see it myself. Still, who knows what's going on anymore?

Exactly my thoughts. Very unlikely, going against normality, but we have a track record of things like that turning out to be true.

I try to break it down in smaller chunks so my mind can digest it better. So for instance, in a GE, who would those Labour voters, who also voted Leave, now vote for? Would they stay loyal with Labour or, if the next GE is a "one-issue vote" now turn to another party? The only party I can see that being is the Brexit Party.

You have to factor in ground level infrastructure.  Voters do respond to people who are showing effort at ground level - it adds a personal factor to the equation.  

In addition to this there are strong reasons why there exists "safe seat constituencies".  

So I doubt the Brexit party would make any significant impact in the next election in terms of seats gained to form the next Government.  

With regard to the Brexit Party they would have to rely on Conservative Party Members and Volunteers splitting to support the Brexit Party.

However I think Boris' Johnsons Conservative Party has made it clear that it will carry out a Brexit if it has a sufficient parliamentary majority - so effectively limiting the Brexit party appeal.

TwisT wrote:Exactly my thoughts. Very unlikely, going against normality, but we have a track record of things like that turning out to be true.

I try to break it down in smaller chunks so my mind can digest it better. So for instance, in a GE, who would those Labour  voters, who also voted Leave, now vote for? Would they stay loyal with Labour or, if the next GE is a "one-issue vote" now turn to another party? The only party I can see that being is the Brexit Party.

I think a section of those would vote Labour still for one of many reasons, including:

They’re never voting Tory
They’re less likely to be drawn to Farage if they’re resisted the Tories
A referendum is more palatable than just abolishing it, and Labour appear to be leaning to a referendum. 
The Lib Dems lost a lot of faith in their Tory partnership years ago

I suspect some might vote Green, but in the end, a lot of Labour votes are anti-Tory votes, and they’ll vote for the party most likely to keep the tories out in their constituency.

Could it go totally the other way and just have voter apathy with a minimal turn-out? I suppose probably more likely to have the opposite effect if a GE is classed a "Referendum v1.1"

From my own perspective I am just so annoyed with the whole charade that I would be less likely to vote; probably to the point of not voting at all. People would say if you don't vote, don't complain on the outcome - which usually I would agree with. But just drilling this down to the bare bones, this whole thing shows that your vote doesn't even matter even in ones that can't be blamed on FPTP mechanics - which the referendum was. Every vote counted.

This then goes back to my point i made a week back how would those that voted leave react to Brexit not happening at all, if that is what happens via a 2nd referendum.

From what I have read in the mainstream media and various social media discussion forums - the "brexiter" is assumed to be either a racist Tory, or a racist BNP, or a racist thug, or a gullible idiot.  I don't recall reading about "Labour Brexiters" and what they would do - except in a sort of hushed tones along the lines of "idiot racist northerners who vote labour".  But the general assumption appears to be they will either vote for labour because it is part of their tradition or that they won't vote at all.  I guess it is possible they might vote for the "Brexit Party".

I suppose the Conservative and Labour party have their own focus groups to try to work out what their voters might do.

My problem with all of this is that there hasn't really been a sensible dispassionate discussion - the EU debate became polarised and stereotyped from an early stage.

From Labour peer Stewart Wood:


The #Brexit Minister Stephen Barclay just confirmed to me in his @LordsEUCom evidence that, under the Govt's proposals, Northern Irish businesses sending goods to Great Britain will have to complete export declaration forms.

This revelation confirms two things.

1. The GB-NI border inside the UK will, from a commercial point of view, feel like a real border.

2. The Govt is trying to push through a vote on the deal before the text of the Withdrawal Bill is seen for a reason: the contents are alarming


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-parliaments-50124244

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:From Labour peer Stewart Wood ... This revelation confirms two things.

1. The GB-NI border inside the UK will, from a commercial point of view, feel like a real border.

2. The Govt is trying to push through a vote on the deal before the text of the Withdrawal Bill is seen for a reason: the contents are alarming ...

In this instance the Govt. is looking like a dodgey salesman trying to rush through a sale.  Perhaps the DUP were right in not voting for the "deal" - as they say they want to be treated like any other part of the UK.

What a shambles.  It is even threatening the stability of the entity known as the United Kingdom & NI.   But I can't see how Brexit can be avoided - the Conservatives have effectively gambled their party's entire political future on Brexit (and for that I blame David Cameron).

As Justine Greening said this morning, rushed law is bad law. This could hardly be more important, and the government would rather play for headlines than take its job seriously.

Eve though I am an arch remainer...if the UK does leave the EU then I hope it is without a deal. It's pointless having the Johnson half way house deal. At least no deal would bring about change. Change that is totally rubbish. But worth it if it secures Scottish independence with the next 5 years

Steffan wrote:Eve though I am an arch remainer...if the UK does leave the EU then I hope it is without a deal. It's pointless having the Johnson half way house deal. At least no deal would bring about change. Change that is totally rubbish. But worth it if it secures Scottish independence with the next 5 years

Leaving with a deal is mediocre for the economy, while leaving without a deal would cause huge hardship, especially for those in poverty. Very irresponsible comment.

I think Tories will do well at the next election regardless of whether they get the deal through by then. I don't think they'll get 42% like in 2017, but out of the 52% who voted Leave, I see them getting 35%.
I see Labour dropping from around 40% to 27% while Lib Dem will be between 15 and 20. Brexit Party will do well as a percentage, but probably not get more than 10 seats because of FPTP.

The interesting thing will be, if that does happen (average of polls is around that figure right now) will that be enough for them to form a government? Tories may well get 315 seats like 2017. This is where the deal having gone through is important- if it hasn't, DUP could make Boris him ditch NI frontstop in exchange for giving him a majority. Unfortunately that's not viable, so Boris would be stuffed. Even if the deal goes through, the DUP could be so angry they don't give him a majority. So he really needs a Tory majority, 325+.

Meanwhile for Labour, SNP are expected to get 45 seats, while Libs will get 40 seats, around 30 of those 40 MPs would probably back Corbyn in a confidence and supply deal. They'll ask for Indyref and EUref respectively. So Labour can rely on getting 250 seats themselves, and possibly having enough to form a government with majority support for Queen's Speech.

It Must Be Love wrote:Leaving with a deal is mediocre for the economy, while leaving without a deal would cause huge hardship, especially for those in poverty. Very irresponsible comment

Well according to all the Leavers I speak to...No Deal on WTO rules is going to be amazing. The streets will be paved with gold and unicorns draped in Union flags are going to poop glitter everywhere

MP’s being given just 3 days to evaluate, debate, scrutinise and vote on Johnsons WAB, an almost impossible task. Anyone who votes for this is playing fast and loose with their constituents livelihoods.

Yes. It is not about what is right or wrong. It is about proper process and due diligence. Why would you trust anyone trying to rail road you into such an important decision. Why would you trust Boris and his pals over anything?

I don't like the conspiracy theories. I don't think there is enough solid proof for any of them and don't trust the way people will latch on to one as a way of explaining everything. But something really stinks.

The phantom downvoter is back again. Somebody really needs to get a life.

I hadnt noticed. Well, whatever gets them off I suppose.

lostinwales wrote:Yes. It is not about what is right or wrong. It is about proper process and due diligence. Why would you trust anyone trying to rail road you into such an important decision.  Why would you trust Boris and his pals over anything?

I don't like the conspiracy theories. I don't think there is enough solid proof for any of them and don't trust the way people will latch on to one as a way of explaining everything.  But something really stinks.

I don't know what you mean by "conspiracy theories".  

For me it is just "politics" ... the nature of politics ... opinionated people wanting to make a difference ... ideology ... inability to admit mistakes.  

Politics coupled with "simple and sensationalist reporting" and reporting that focuses on "mistakes" and "blame" and "personalities" rather than nuts and bolts of political issues, process and balanced assessments - is a toxic combination.  

It leads to populists politicians who might be without much substance.  

What I see Boris Johnson doing is trying to save the Conservative Party and his position within it by trying to force through Brexit - a pledge that was contained in the 2015 COnservative General Election Manifesto - that the "people" will get a choice on whether to stay or leave the EU and if the people choose to leave the EU we will leave the EU.

The Conservatives seem to be digging themselves into such a hole over this - it is not clear they can survive if they don't deliver Brexit.  So it has become a matter of political expediency and nothing else seems to matter including what is good for the country, what is good for the "United Kingdom".

What makes matters worse is that in the wings we have what appears to be a Marxist - Socialist opposition party, that if they get an opportunity for government will implement deep ranging Marxist-Socialist policies based on ideological notions of social justice.

As I see it the whole Brexit situation was manufactured and messed up by the Conservatives.

It was the Conservative government of David Cameron who announced the referendum. He only agreed to it to appease a growing amount of former Tory voters who had taken their votes to UKIP weakening the Tories vote share. He felt sure a Remain vote would be returned and he'd win back lost voters by giving people the chance for Brexit.

In all of the time that Brexit has been an issue the Tories have been in power. They boasted they were 'strong and stable' which has turned out to be anything but true. They've made promises after promise that they have broken and now they have betrayed the DUP who had kept them in power since the 2017 General Election. They have never seriously considered any other party's input into talks. It was their baby and it was going to be what they wanted and to hell with anyone else.

Boris Johnson cannot be trusted as he has shown time and again as PM. He is trying to push through a deal that is as near as makes no difference May's Deal which so angered him he quit his post in the cabinet in protest at May's Deal and voted against it. Work that one out if you can because I cannot. He then illegally prorogued parliament in a bid to run down the clock to his dream no deal. And now plays childish games such as not signing the letter asking for an extension whilst adding another letter of his own pleading with the EU not to grant an extension. He is now trying to rush through his deal without allowing it to be scrutinised. As some MP said it is akin to asking someone to buy a house having not looked at the inside of it or seen a survey report.

Sorry but right now ANYTHING would be better than a Tory government.

CaledonianCraig wrote:As I see it the whole Brexit situation was manufactured and messed up by the Conservatives.

It was the Conservative government of David Cameron who announced the referendum. He only agreed to it to appease a growing amount of former Tory voters who had taken their votes to UKIP weakening the Tories vote share. He felt sure a Remain vote would be returned and he'd win back lost voters by giving people the chance for Brexit.

In all of the time that Brexit has been an issue the Tories have been in power. They boasted they were 'strong and stable' which has turned out to be anything but true. They've made promises after promise that they have broken and now they have betrayed the DUP who had kept them in power since the 2017 General Election. They have never seriously considered any other party's input into talks. It was their baby and it was going to be what they wanted and to hell with anyone else.

Boris Johnson cannot be trusted as he has shown time and again as PM. He is trying to push through a deal that is as near as makes no difference May's Deal which so angered him he quit his post in the cabinet in protest at May's Deal and voted against it. Work that one out if you can because I cannot. He then illegally prorogued parliament in a bid to run down the clock to his dream no deal. And now plays childish games such as not signing the letter asking for an extension whilst adding another letter of his own pleading with the EU not to grant an extension. He is now trying to rush through his deal without allowing it to be scrutinised. As some MP said it is akin to asking someone to buy a house having not looked at the inside of it or seen a survey report.

Sorry but right now ANYTHING would be better than a Tory government.

Some valid points, but you're ignoring the gradual loss in faith of politicians, in general, massively contributed to by the Blair Government (for all some of what they did was worthwhile) and especially after Iraq. There's been a gradual loss of faith in our childish political system as well; change in which was something that Blair rejected. Oh, and while I'm at it, the expenses scandal of 2009, on a Labour watch, but undoubtedly not just their fault. It is not always exclusively a Tory c0ck-up/conspiracy I'm afraid.
Cameron was/is a political idiot. No real beliefs and no honour or morals. I wouldn't trust him to be a second-hand car salesman (with apologies to those in said careers). He continued the scheisse that Blair/Campbell started.

Re. Johnson, he didn't quit in protest because he hated May's deal. He did so as political posturing for his own career. Davies quit in anger first; Johnson just postured and copied him. You'd have to say it worked though, as he can now tick the 'PM' box on his CV. It's all a game to Johnson; more's the pity.

I'd argue that anything is not necessarily better than a Tory Government, particularly when you look at the current Opposition. Corbyn's a chuffing Brexiteer for Heaven's sake, who's either actively avoided a leadership position for decades and/or was seen to be unsuitable for decades. Useless.

If the Tories could have hand-picked the leader of the opposition, they'd have picked Jeremy Corbyn.

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:As I see it the whole Brexit situation was manufactured and messed up by the Conservatives.

It was the Conservative government of David Cameron who announced the referendum. He only agreed to it to appease a growing amount of former Tory voters who had taken their votes to UKIP weakening the Tories vote share. He felt sure a Remain vote would be returned and he'd win back lost voters by giving people the chance for Brexit.

In all of the time that Brexit has been an issue the Tories have been in power. They boasted they were 'strong and stable' which has turned out to be anything but true. They've made promises after promise that they have broken and now they have betrayed the DUP who had kept them in power since the 2017 General Election. They have never seriously considered any other party's input into talks. It was their baby and it was going to be what they wanted and to hell with anyone else.

Boris Johnson cannot be trusted as he has shown time and again as PM. He is trying to push through a deal that is as near as makes no difference May's Deal which so angered him he quit his post in the cabinet in protest at May's Deal and voted against it. Work that one out if you can because I cannot. He then illegally prorogued parliament in a bid to run down the clock to his dream no deal. And now plays childish games such as not signing the letter asking for an extension whilst adding another letter of his own pleading with the EU not to grant an extension. He is now trying to rush through his deal without allowing it to be scrutinised. As some MP said it is akin to asking someone to buy a house having not looked at the inside of it or seen a survey report.

Sorry but right now ANYTHING would be better than a Tory government.

Some valid points, but you're ignoring the gradual loss in faith of politicians, in general, massively contributed to by the Blair Government (for all some of what they did was worthwhile) and especially after Iraq. There's been a gradual loss of faith in our childish political system as well; change in which was something that Blair rejected. Oh, and while I'm at it, the expenses scandal of 2009, on a Labour watch, but undoubtedly not just their fault. It is not always exclusively a Tory c0ck-up/conspiracy I'm afraid.
Cameron was/is a political idiot. No real beliefs and no honour or morals. I wouldn't trust him to be a second-hand car salesman (with apologies to those in said careers). He continued the scheisse that Blair/Campbell started.

Re. Johnson, he didn't quit in protest because he hated May's deal. He did so as political posturing for his own career. Davies quit in anger first; Johnson just postured and copied him. You'd have to say it worked though, as he can now tick the 'PM' box on his CV. It's all a game to Johnson; more's the pity.

I'd argue that anything is not necessarily better than a Tory Government, particularly when you look at the current Opposition. Corbyn's a chuffing Brexiteer for Heaven's sake, who's either actively avoided a leadership position for decades and/or was seen to be unsuitable for decades. Useless.

I was speaking exclusively about Brexit.

Of course there have been past Labour governments culpable for much to be ashamed about but I am talking of the here and now.

This Tory government (and May's) has been a catalogue of lies, BS, false boasts, showing a total disregard for anyone else's beliefs on Brexit but their own and I have zero sympathy for their predicament. As for Corbyn's Labour well I'd say Tories have been given their shot at screwing up Brexit and more so time to move over and let someone else do it their way unless the Tories have some form of exclusivity on power that is.

They are showing themselves up as prepared to do anything to push through Brexit with a disregard of how bad it will be for the country. How do we know that? Well even their Project Yellowhammer has stated the effects Brexit will have. Businesses are screaming out how bad it will be. And they have even shafted the DUP - a great way to thank them for keeping them in power for two years which again displays how they cannot be trusted. This deal they propose they claim will be great for Northern Ireland though it keeps them tied in to lot of the EU regulations. Rightly so other nations of the UK ask what about us for that and the Tories have no answer to that.

Brexit is the biggest issue to have hit the UK since the Second World War and it is driving huge wedges between countries in the union.

To me it is clear that the Tories don't give a stuff being that they are all affluent toffs with fingers in financial pies which won't be affected by Brexit. A complete 'I'm alright Jack' attitude. It stinks to high heaven.

CaledonianCraig wrote:
To me it is clear that the Tories don't give a stuff being that they are all affluent toffs with fingers in financial pies which won't be affected by Brexit. A complete 'I'm alright Jack' attitude. It stinks to high heaven.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:As I see it the whole Brexit situation was manufactured and messed up by the Conservatives.

It was the Conservative government of David Cameron who announced the referendum. He only agreed to it to appease a growing amount of former Tory voters who had taken their votes to UKIP weakening the Tories vote share. He felt sure a Remain vote would be returned and he'd win back lost voters by giving people the chance for Brexit.

In all of the time that Brexit has been an issue the Tories have been in power. They boasted they were 'strong and stable' which has turned out to be anything but true. They've made promises after promise that they have broken and now they have betrayed the DUP who had kept them in power since the 2017 General Election. They have never seriously considered any other party's input into talks. It was their baby and it was going to be what they wanted and to hell with anyone else.

Boris Johnson cannot be trusted as he has shown time and again as PM. He is trying to push through a deal that is as near as makes no difference May's Deal which so angered him he quit his post in the cabinet in protest at May's Deal and voted against it. Work that one out if you can because I cannot. He then illegally prorogued parliament in a bid to run down the clock to his dream no deal. And now plays childish games such as not signing the letter asking for an extension whilst adding another letter of his own pleading with the EU not to grant an extension. He is now trying to rush through his deal without allowing it to be scrutinised. As some MP said it is akin to asking someone to buy a house having not looked at the inside of it or seen a survey report.

Sorry but right now ANYTHING would be better than a Tory government.

Some valid points, but you're ignoring the gradual loss in faith of politicians, in general, massively contributed to by the Blair Government (for all some of what they did was worthwhile) and especially after Iraq. There's been a gradual loss of faith in our childish political system as well; change in which was something that Blair rejected. Oh, and while I'm at it, the expenses scandal of 2009, on a Labour watch, but undoubtedly not just their fault. It is not always exclusively a Tory c0ck-up/conspiracy I'm afraid.
Cameron was/is a political idiot. No real beliefs and no honour or morals. I wouldn't trust him to be a second-hand car salesman (with apologies to those in said careers). He continued the scheisse that Blair/Campbell started.

Re. Johnson, he didn't quit in protest because he hated May's deal. He did so as political posturing for his own career. Davies quit in anger first; Johnson just postured and copied him. You'd have to say it worked though, as he can now tick the 'PM' box on his CV. It's all a game to Johnson; more's the pity.

I'd argue that anything is not necessarily better than a Tory Government, particularly when you look at the current Opposition. Corbyn's a chuffing Brexiteer for Heaven's sake, who's either actively avoided a leadership position for decades and/or was seen to be unsuitable for decades. Useless.

I was speaking exclusively about Brexit.

Of course there have been past Labour governments culpable for much to be ashamed about but I am talking of the here and now.

This Tory government (and May's) has been a catalogue of lies, BS, false boasts, showing a total disregard for anyone else's beliefs on Brexit but their own and I have zero sympathy for their predicament. As for Corbyn's Labour well I'd say Tories have been given their shot at screwing up Brexit and more so time to move over and let someone else do it their way unless the Tories have some form of exclusivity on power that is.

They are showing themselves up as prepared to do anything to push through Brexit with a disregard of how bad it will be for the country. How do we know that? Well even their Project Yellowhammer has stated the effects Brexit will have. Businesses are screaming out how bad it will be. And they have even shafted the DUP - a great way to thank them for keeping them in power for two years which again displays how they cannot be trusted. This deal they propose they claim will be great for Northern Ireland though it keeps them tied in to lot of the EU regulations. Rightly so other nations of the UK ask what about us for that and the Tories have no answer to that.

Brexit is the biggest issue to have hit the UK since the Second World War and it is driving huge wedges between countries in the union.

To me it is clear that the Tories don't give a stuff being that they are all affluent toffs with fingers in financial pies which won't be affected by Brexit. A complete 'I'm alright Jack' attitude. It stinks to high heaven.

Yeah; pretty much agree with all that. The idea that, for example, they should have a whole 3 days to debate whatever God-awful timetable it is that Johnson wants to implement, simply to avoid going beyond Oct 31st is, frankly, beyond a joke. Surely to goodness, it's worth getting whatever useless deal it is correct? Then again, this fits perfectly with my hunch that we've always been politically cr@p in this country; always blagging it and trusting to luck, but never been so obviously blagging than with this.

You might be right on Corbyn too; utterly useless and advocating some Marxist utopia, but is that really so much worse than the situation now? Who knows. We get the politicians we deserve I guess.

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:As I see it the whole Brexit situation was manufactured and messed up by the Conservatives.

It was the Conservative government of David Cameron who announced the referendum. He only agreed to it to appease a growing amount of former Tory voters who had taken their votes to UKIP weakening the Tories vote share. He felt sure a Remain vote would be returned and he'd win back lost voters by giving people the chance for Brexit.

In all of the time that Brexit has been an issue the Tories have been in power. They boasted they were 'strong and stable' which has turned out to be anything but true. They've made promises after promise that they have broken and now they have betrayed the DUP who had kept them in power since the 2017 General Election. They have never seriously considered any other party's input into talks. It was their baby and it was going to be what they wanted and to hell with anyone else.

Boris Johnson cannot be trusted as he has shown time and again as PM. He is trying to push through a deal that is as near as makes no difference May's Deal which so angered him he quit his post in the cabinet in protest at May's Deal and voted against it. Work that one out if you can because I cannot. He then illegally prorogued parliament in a bid to run down the clock to his dream no deal. And now plays childish games such as not signing the letter asking for an extension whilst adding another letter of his own pleading with the EU not to grant an extension. He is now trying to rush through his deal without allowing it to be scrutinised. As some MP said it is akin to asking someone to buy a house having not looked at the inside of it or seen a survey report.

Sorry but right now ANYTHING would be better than a Tory government.

Some valid points, but you're ignoring the gradual loss in faith of politicians, in general, massively contributed to by the Blair Government (for all some of what they did was worthwhile) and especially after Iraq. There's been a gradual loss of faith in our childish political system as well; change in which was something that Blair rejected. Oh, and while I'm at it, the expenses scandal of 2009, on a Labour watch, but undoubtedly not just their fault. It is not always exclusively a Tory c0ck-up/conspiracy I'm afraid.
Cameron was/is a political idiot. No real beliefs and no honour or morals. I wouldn't trust him to be a second-hand car salesman (with apologies to those in said careers). He continued the scheisse that Blair/Campbell started.

Re. Johnson, he didn't quit in protest because he hated May's deal. He did so as political posturing for his own career. Davies quit in anger first; Johnson just postured and copied him. You'd have to say it worked though, as he can now tick the 'PM' box on his CV. It's all a game to Johnson; more's the pity.

I'd argue that anything is not necessarily better than a Tory Government, particularly when you look at the current Opposition. Corbyn's a chuffing Brexiteer for Heaven's sake, who's either actively avoided a leadership position for decades and/or was seen to be unsuitable for decades. Useless.

I was speaking exclusively about Brexit.

Of course there have been past Labour governments culpable for much to be ashamed about but I am talking of the here and now.

This Tory government (and May's) has been a catalogue of lies, BS, false boasts, showing a total disregard for anyone else's beliefs on Brexit but their own and I have zero sympathy for their predicament. As for Corbyn's Labour well I'd say Tories have been given their shot at screwing up Brexit and more so time to move over and let someone else do it their way unless the Tories have some form of exclusivity on power that is.

They are showing themselves up as prepared to do anything to push through Brexit with a disregard of how bad it will be for the country. How do we know that? Well even their Project Yellowhammer has stated the effects Brexit will have. Businesses are screaming out how bad it will be. And they have even shafted the DUP - a great way to thank them for keeping them in power for two years which again displays how they cannot be trusted. This deal they propose they claim will be great for Northern Ireland though it keeps them tied in to lot of the EU regulations. Rightly so other nations of the UK ask what about us for that and the Tories have no answer to that.

Brexit is the biggest issue to have hit the UK since the Second World War and it is driving huge wedges between countries in the union.

To me it is clear that the Tories don't give a stuff being that they are all affluent toffs with fingers in financial pies which won't be affected by Brexit. A complete 'I'm alright Jack' attitude. It stinks to high heaven.

Yeah; pretty much agree with all that. The idea that, for example, they should have a whole 3 days to debate whatever God-awful timetable it is that Johnson wants to implement, simply to avoid going beyond Oct 31st is, frankly, beyond a joke. Surely to goodness, it's worth getting whatever useless deal it is correct? Then again, this fits perfectly with my hunch that we've always been politically cr@p in this country; always blagging it and trusting to luck, but never been so obviously blagging than with this.

You might be right on Corbyn too; utterly useless and advocating some Marxist utopia, but is that really so much worse than the situation now? Who knows. We get the politicians we deserve I guess.

Absolutely.

All I hear from the Tories id they have to agree to this deal to get Brexit done. That is totally the wrong mindset. Brexit is the biggest issue since the Second World War and not something that can be taken lightly without scrutinising everything thoroughly. Surely the mindset should be not just get it done but get it right. This smacks of the same issue as what started this whole mess. A Tory Prime Minister offering something to appease Brexiteers to ensure their votes in future elections. Cameron did it when agreeing to a Brexit referendum and Johnson is doing it now so he can say he got a deal.

The worst thing for me is the mantra 'let's get Brexit done', repeated precisely to mislead the public into thinking that passing the withdrawal agreement will be the end of it. It's so depressingly cynical.

Since 2016, Brexiters have deliberately misled the people of the UK. It's a disgrace. Even if it works, it's a disgrace.

David Cameron put the EU Referendum on  the Conservative Manifesto for the 2015 General Election.  On that manifesto he and the Conservatives gained an outright parliamentary majority.  

Then there was a period when David Cameron said it was important that the EC do not elect Jean-Claude Juncker as EU President under any circumstances (I think this occurred in 2014 and so before the 2015 General Election).  Then there was a period when David Cameron negotiated with the EC & EU for a "better deal".  Then he announced the terms and timetable of the 2016 EU Referendum - a straight Stay or Leave Choice.  Then he announced "victory in our time" with a new deal arrangement with the EU (which the mainstream media presented as a sell-out) and then he announced he would be campaigning for Staying in the EU.

Now a general question to all:  During the 2016 EU Referendum Campaign who were the major players in the Stay and Leave Campaigns.  As far as I can recall it was Conservatives campaigning to Stay in the EU and it was another set of Conservatives campaigning to Leave + UKIP's Nigel Farage.  

It was Conservative Remainers (David Cameron + ...) who framed the EU referendum as a straight Remain or Leave choice.   There was no discussion or consideration of "Leaving but staying in the EU Common Market (as far as I can recall)".

So if my memory serves me right I have three criticisms of David Cameron a) Putting the EU Referendum on his Manifesto.  b) The framing of the EU Referendum as a straight leave or remain choice.  c) Him resigning following the EU Referendum outcome (e.g. why didn't he stay and fight for a Brexit but with a deal to stay in the EU Common Market?).

Cameron is a p***k. Period. He said there'd be a referendum but he'd already discussed that he didn't really mean it with Merkel. That's why, apparently, when he let that slip to Carswell, the latter went ballistic and joined UKIP. Right or wrong, at least Carswell actually believed something. Cameron actually asked advisors what he should say to people in order to get their approval. His idea of showing belief is to remove his jacket and roll up his shirt sleeves. The man is an utter political lightweight who came from PR at what, apparently, was arguably one of the worst media companies in Carlton, run by an utter schidt.

He became Tory leader after, what, ~4 years as an MP FFS! Either he was utterly brilliant (clearly not) or our politics is filled with ****ing lightweights, charlatans and shysters. Tells you something that this t0sser became Tory leader on the back of almost stuff all Parliamentary experience.

As I said, we get the politicians we deserve.

navyblueshorts wrote:Cameron is a p***k. Period. He said there'd be a referendum but he'd already discussed that he didn't really mean it with Merkel. That's why, apparently, when he let that slip to Carswell, the latter went ballistic and joined UKIP. Right or wrong, at least Carswell actually believed something. Cameron actually asked advisors what he should say to people in order to get their approval. His idea of showing belief is to remove his jacket and roll up his shirt sleeves. The man is an utter political lightweight who came from PR at what, apparently, was arguably one of the worst media companies in Carlton, run by an utter schidt.

He became Tory leader after, what, ~4 years as an MP FFS! Either he was utterly brilliant (clearly not) or our politics is filled with ****ing lightweights, charlatans and shysters. Tells you something that this t0sser became Tory leader on the back of almost stuff all Parliamentary experience.

As I said, we get the politicians we deserve.

On this point, I remember reading that although Boris Johson has been an MP for a while, he's never really been a great participant, in terms of number of speeches and so on.

I've noticed that there are some MPs, not necessarily 'big name' MPs, who always get silence in the chamber when they get up to speak. Other MPs know they're serious parliamentarians. Boris Johnson isn't among them. He hasn't earnt the respect of the house in that way.

Allow Brexit Bill to proceed to next stage

Yes - 329
No - 299

Majority - 30

Healthy majority that for the Government

Yes - 308
No - 322

Brexit Bill Timetable

Back to losing for Boris