QF1 - Match Thread - England v Australia - 19/10/19 - K/O 08:15 BST

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

Thought I'd get these made nice and early for a few reasons - but one being that we're already now looking ahead to the QFs with several teams having finished their group stage, so it's all heating up for the proper knockout stuff...barring any more disruption.

England



Team: Daly; Watson, Slade, Tuilagi, May; Farrell (capt), Youngs; M Vunipola, George, Sinckler; Itoje, Lawes; Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Marler, Cole, Kruis, Ludlam, Heinz, Ford, Joseph.


Australia



Team: Beale; Hodge, Petaia, Kerevi, Koroibete; Lealiifano, Genia; Alaalatoa, Latu, Sio; Arnold, Rodda; Naisarani, Hooper (c), Pocock.

Replacements: Uelese, Slipper, Tupou, Coleman, Salakaia-Loto, White, To'omua, O'Connor.



Venue: Oita
Referee: Jerome Garces
AR1: Romain Poite
AR2: Mathieu Raynal
TMO: Ben Skeen

[Afro]

I'm slightly concerned about being undercooked to be honest. Mako / Wilson / Slade / Nowell would all likely be in our strongest 23, and have probably played around half a game each at max

Its good to have a clean bill of health outside of Billy's injury, but do think we've not really had much of a challenge due to the red card and cancellation. I think Eddie is more than capable of preparing the team, but I would not be surprised to see a slightly slow start in the first 20 mins against Oz

Still think we'll win, but there is cause for concern

Quoting myself here, but on the flip side, if we get through the Australia game I'll be hopeful / confident that we'd have the right balance of hard fought game time and a relatively fresh squad ahead of the semi finals.

Stop arguing with yourself or I'll have to ban you both Bam

[BamBam]

And that will only be the 3rd most ridiculous reason for me being banned in the last few months

[No 7&1/2]

Ha!

[No 7&1/2]

I am slightly worried jones will plump for mako to start. Forgot how good marler was while hes been away. Just quality. Vunipola is a guy kost likely to be chosen in a world 15 and has skills unlike most props and that's even counting the influx of tight heads like furlongs and sinckler: marler is just quality though.

[BamBam]

Hmm, only reason I wouldn't start Mako is because of his match fitness, if he's ready to go I'd play him especially given Marler's knock.

If both fully fit, I'd start Mako and Sinckler, look to use their skills to help us build a lead then we've got Marler and Cole to come off the bench, both rock solid in defence and have the cool heads and experience to see the game out at set pieces

[Luckless Pedestrian]

I think Marler's nuisance value counts in his favour for a match against the Wallabies. Remember Mark Regan against France in 2007?

[Guest]

Marler's probably the most underrated English player in the last 5-10 years. Genuinely one of the world's best props, and you think if he'd had a bit more mental/whatever support, could have been the best, as it's now clear he's not always been in the 'right place' to flourish/excel.

By contrast, Cipriani...

[No 7&1/2]

Just that scrum sticking in my mind. Marler has been excellent there. I really dont want australia to win an early penalty: I want the ref to think they're under severe pressure and give us pens every time! That's not to say vunipola csnt scrummage but marler is much better.

[No 7&1/2]

Marler and cole are also a quality comedy double act.

[Taylorman]

Australia head coach Michael Cheika has insisted his team will do very little analysis of quarter-final opponents England, preferring instead to zone in on themselves and their own expansive game plan.

As the Wallabies prepare for their most significant match in four years, player after player lined up to back Cheika's mantra that the identity of the opposition does not matter.

"Don’t really have one mate," Cheika replied when asked on Monday for his view on England's strengths and weaknesses.

"Lots of respect but I’m not a big analyser of the opposition. .

"

Exactly why he’s one of the poorest coaches around.

He’s harped on about that for years. Yet he consistently blames everything external when he loses...the refs, the rules, the opposition tactics...everything and anything bar his own coaching and own players.

If you aren’t going to analyse anything outside your control, why blame each and every one of them later?

In analysing the opposition you get to learn the easy gains, the do’s and do not’s. It’s lazy, or flawed, and when more than 50% of your matches are ‘going too the other side’ wouldn’t you simply want to know some of ‘how they are getting that 50%’.

Mind boggling.

One of the keys of Henry’s era was Wayne Smith doing ‘homework’ on every potential opponent. The strengths, weaknesses, gains etc etc.’we’ve done France, tomorrow we start on Wales’ he would say in prep for the next few matches.

[Poorfour]

I prefer the balance of Marler/Sinckler and Mako/Cole. That way you always have one setpiece specialist and one big carrier on the pitch. When both Marler and Mako have been fit and available, Eddie has started Marler around 70% of the time, and I'd expect him to do the same here.

Australia's starting front row are pretty good, and given the number of scrums that are likely in the conditions, I would rather have Marler take them on and have Mako face off against the replacements (who aren't bad - but are less of a threat to the weak spots in Mako's technique).

I also prefer Marler's defence. Itoje's rip in the Argentina game was made possible by Marler's tackle, pinning the player's arms and holding him upright so that the tackle didn't complete and the rip was legal. And every so often you see a smaller player head down his channel... and think better of it. Which is hilarious when you spot it but deadly serious in terms of shepherding the attack where you want it.

Anyway, I don't think England will be undercooked. This is effectively the first game of an Autumn International series, and they've got a good record of winning the first game of a series. This isn't one of Gatland's teams.

What's most striking here is the mix of match ups where we just don't know how it will go because the lineups have changed on one side or the other. How will the new look Aussie tight five go against England's? How will England's young pretenders in the back row match up to Pocock and Hooper? What halfback pairings will Eddie and Mikey choose to go with? How will Australia fare without Folau, and how will England fare without a proper fullback?

[robbo277]

Mako at his best often goes to around the 70th minute for Eddie, sometimes longer. I'd potentially start with Mako over Marler, but I'd be looking at a 50/30 split. It's an 80 minute game and we'll need both of them across the game - but I prefer Mako as a starter and Marler to finish.

[Taylorman]

Yes, striking thing about England is they always start ‘groups ‘ of matches well. 6N, AIs. They don’t always end them well for some reason but for that reason oz will probably catch the best of England’s knockout form.

[Guest]

If you aren’t going to analyse anything outside your control, why blame each and every one of them later?

Sait it before, saying it again. You're taking the external stuff to literally. You don't judge the man mainly on his media appearances, jeez...

Good case to be made for focusing on themselves, anyway. Long term, it's by far the best option. Control what you can control. Work out systems and tactics that will 'beat' all teams. The Wallabies look both disorganised and low on confidence, so focusing on what theyre good at, focusing on where they can find harmony, seems sensible. Nothing that controversial, really.

[lostinwales]

If you aren’t going to analyse anything outside your control, why blame each and every one of them later?

Sait it before, saying it again. You're taking the external stuff to literally. You don't judge the man mainly on his media appearances, jeez...

Good case to be made for focusing on themselves, anyway. Long term, it's by far the best option. Control what you can control. Work out systems and tactics that will 'beat' all teams. The Wallabies look both disorganised and low on confidence, so focusing on what theyre good at, focusing on where they can find harmony, seems sensible. Nothing that controversial, really.

We could equally suggest that your arguments are based on thinking Wales are better than England, therefore a team that runs Wales close will run England closer.

[Soul Requiem]

I prefer the balance of Marler/Sinckler and Mako/Cole. That way you always have one setpiece specialist and one big carrier on the pitch. When both Marler and Mako have been fit and available, Eddie has started Marler around 70% of the time, and I'd expect him to do the same here.

Australia's starting front row are pretty good, and given the number of scrums that are likely in the conditions, I would rather have Marler take them on and have Mako face off against the replacements (who aren't bad - but are less of a threat to the weak spots in Mako's technique).

I also prefer Marler's defence. Itoje's rip in the Argentina game was made possible by Marler's tackle, pinning the player's arms and holding him upright so that the tackle didn't complete and the rip was legal. And every so often you see a smaller player head down his channel... and think better of it. Which is hilarious when you spot it but deadly serious in terms of shepherding the attack where you want it.

I'd be picking Marler over Mako every single game, he doesn't make as many tackles but he makes far more dominant tackles like you've alluded to and he's more useful at the breakdown too. He's among the best scrummaging props in the world and with Sinckler playing it negates the need for Mako.

[Taylorman]

If you aren’t going to analyse anything outside your control, why blame each and every one of them later?

Sait it before, saying it again. You're taking the external stuff to literally. You don't judge the man mainly on his media appearances, jeez...

Good case to be made for focusing on themselves, anyway. Long term, it's by far the best option. Control what you can control. Work out systems and tactics that will 'beat' all teams. The Wallabies look both disorganised and low on confidence, so focusing on what theyre good at, focusing on where they can find harmony, seems sensible. Nothing that controversial, really.

Sorry, thats rubbish.

He makes a point of not analysing the opposition. He said that again this week in a 'We don't care what England are going to do' kinda way.

If theyre disorganised and low on confidence (and how you get 'to know' those things when you are spouting others are taking things from the outside I don't know- he said they were full of confidence and theyre ready to go- so where does your knowledge come from? Thin air?) then you provide them with areas they can get the benefits from. As a coach you coach the 'easy wins' of the game. If England were to start with 2 five foot locks surely you would think...hmmm...we'll target their lineout.

But nooooo, lets not do that, thats their game. Yeah sure.

Or are you saying theres no value in analysing the opposition.

The ABs do it, Schmidt definitely does it. If he was knocking 60/70% wins in fine, but sub 50?

That is a completely unacceptable flaw. Sad as you don't see that.

and this:

Work out systems and tactics that will 'beat' all teams.

You are kidding surely. What part of that doesnt require the analysis of other teams?

[quinsforever]

So basically, Quins, what you’re saying is:

1. No poofter haters. 
   
2. No member of the team is to commit a high tackle in any way whatsoever—if there's anyone watching. 
   
3. No poofter haters. 
   
4. I don't want to catch anyone playing to their 2015 form once the whistle has gone. 
   
5. No poofter haters. 
   
6. There is no rule six. 
   
7. No poofter haters.
   

[quinsforever]

Australia head coach Michael Cheika has insisted his team will do very little analysis of quarter-final opponents England, preferring instead to zone in on themselves and their own expansive game plan.

As the Wallabies prepare for their most significant match in four years, player after player lined up to back Cheika's mantra that the identity of the opposition does not matter.

"Don’t really have one mate," Cheika replied when asked on Monday for his view on England's strengths and weaknesses.

"Lots of respect but I’m not a big analyser of the opposition. .

"

Exactly why he’s one of the poorest coaches around.

He’s harped on about that for years. Yet he consistently blames everything external when he loses...the refs, the rules, the opposition tactics...everything and anything bar his own coaching and own players.

If you aren’t going to analyse anything outside your control, why blame each and every one of them later?

In analysing the opposition you get to learn the easy gains, the do’s and do not’s. It’s lazy, or flawed, and when more than 50% of your matches are ‘going too the other side’ wouldn’t you simply want to know some of ‘how they are getting that 50%’.

Mind boggling.

One of the keys of Henry’s era was Wayne Smith doing ‘homework’ on every potential opponent. The strengths, weaknesses, gains etc etc.’we’ve done France, tomorrow we start on Wales’ he would say in prep for the next few matches.

for once i can say i 100% agree with you. either he's lying, or he's a Frak idiot

[SecretFly]

Well, in a way he's telling the truth.  We look for coaches to be a bit more honest, and when we get one of the most raw, opinionated but blunt-cut honest ones, we don't like it and suggest he might be an idiot.

Well he might be.  But most of all, he's Cheika - an original.  So he might be wrong in his attitude but he's hardly going to stop being Cheika to please the masses.

England might see his lack of specific prep for them as foolhardy and a good opportunity to take the win.  But Cheika has always been more a boxing manager than a rugby coach.  He is drawn to instincts of players for a fight, a dart, an offload.  
His team look like boxers, a rag tag fugitive fleet of mercenary types strolling up for a battle with hand grenades dangling by their pins from their teeth - as the more pristine and regimented chaps march smartly in under control of bleating Sergeant Majors.
It's a movie.  Stop looking for perfection.  The World would be a poorer less colourful place without the mongrel Aussies turning up for blood sport with not a care in the world.  Besides, Mad Dog Cheika got his boys to a final last time.  Not bad for an obnoxious, angry, rawmeat-eating loon

[TrailApe]

as the more pristine and regimented chaps march smartly in under control of bleating Sergeant Majors.

Holy Poopie SecretFly - Sgt Majors bleating?

What mob did this happen in - the 23rd Regiment of Lambikins?

with hand grenades dangling by their pins from their teeth

How they going to drink their brew?

[SecretFly]

Ya see! It's a movie. By my reckoning...Babe.

[SecretFly]

How they going to drink their brew?

Gingerly. Provided they like spice in their brew of course.

[TrailApe]

Gingerly. Provided they like spice in their brew of course.

If they have a gob full of hand grenade that might explain their strange accent...

[Guest]

We could equally suggest that your arguments are based on thinking Wales are better than England, therefore a team that runs Wales close will run England closer.

You could, but you'd be wrong. I see them being on par, hence having the ability to beat England, even if England also have a greater ability to put a team like Australia away than Wales generally show.

[Guest]

Sorry, thats rubbish.

He makes a point of not analysing the opposition. He said that again this week in a 'We don't care what England are going to do' kinda way.

The Intentional Fallacy

Yes, yes, a press conference isn't a work of art, but I can't believe you're lapping it up...rugby men (and women) should know better!

In my opinion, there's both truth to this, and illusion (and elusion).

You cannot honestly believe Australia are doing no prep on England?

[Taylorman]

Yeah sure, deflection rules when you get things wrong through just wanting to oppose a view...any view...

[LondonTiger]

French officials for this game. OP updated.

[Taylorman]

French officials for this game. OP updated.

Well I hope they have shockers so we don’t see em again...

Not that it matters of course...

[Pal Joey]

Referee: Jerome Garces
AR1: Romain Poite
AR2: Mathieu Raynal
TMO: Ben Skeen

Not one, not two but three French Prison Wardens.

And a Kiwi TMO with an over-sized forehead... and barely perceptible whiskers.

We're fooked!

[BamBam]

Think we're missing one collective thread for everyone to post about how hard done they are by the choice of officials in their respective games.

This clicking across various threads business is hard work

[SecretFly]

Who have you got Bam?

[robbo277]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-world-cup/2019/10/15/englandsbilly-vunipola-likely-fit-face-australia-world-cup-quarter/

Someone with a telegraph subscription may be able to tell you more, but Billy Vunipola apparently took a full part in training today and is likely to be fit for Saturday. Good news for England.

[Cornish Warrior]

Very good news if Billy is available. Just need to find some form as he doesn't look his destructive best at the moment.

[robbo277]

Very good news if Billy is available. Just need to find some form as he doesn't look his destructive best at the moment.

Agreed. He was very good at the tail end of last season. He's been effective and efficient, but not destructive so far this tournament. Still, just having him there will fix defenders and create gaps for other players in a way Ludlam or Wilson would not be able to match.

[LondonTiger]

Billy has been good so far, with a lack of form being pushed simply because he has not shown up as much as in the past. It is, imo, a huge boost if he is available.

[SecretFly]

He's only being made available because World Rugby threatened to punish England if he didn't play.

[lostinwales]

Billy has been good so far, with a lack of form being pushed simply because he has not shown up as much as in the past. It is, imo, a huge boost if he is available.

You can argue he doesn't show up because we have many heavy carriers not just the one any more. That plus the expectation that he'll just run over people. It's much harder to do than it was even 3 or 4 years ago, and he's not fast enough to do eye catching runs from deep.

[LondonTiger]

Billy has been good so far, with a lack of form being pushed simply because he has not shown up as much as in the past. It is, imo, a huge boost if he is available.

You can argue he doesn't show up because we have many heavy carriers not just the one any more. That plus the expectation that he'll just run over people. It's much harder to do than it was even 3 or 4 years ago, and he's not fast enough to do eye catching runs from deep.

I agree with you, and the previous poster who suggested Billy's presence can make space for others. As I said I think he is playing well and do not agree with suggestions he is out of form. Looking at games he is putting in the work, carrying more than other forwards, beating more defenders - just not with the end product. Similar in a way to Jonny May, he is doing all the right things, really contributing for the team but unlike earlier in the year the ball is not quite coming for him with try scoring opportunities. He has not failed to convert any chances, just when the ball is scored from his wing, he had done the break up the middle, or the try scorer dummies to him and ghosts through a gap.

[BamBam]

Who have you got Bam?

Garces. He'll just be bitter about Brexit and the fact that our women shave their armpits, so he's definitely going to be against us

[lostinwales]

Billy has been good so far, with a lack of form being pushed simply because he has not shown up as much as in the past. It is, imo, a huge boost if he is available.

You can argue he doesn't show up because we have many heavy carriers not just the one any more. That plus the expectation that he'll just run over people. It's much harder to do than it was even 3 or 4 years ago, and he's not fast enough to do eye catching runs from deep.

I agree with you, and the previous poster who suggested Billy's presence can make space for others. As I said I think he is playing well and do not agree with suggestions he is out of form. Looking at games he is putting in the work, carrying more than other forwards, beating more defenders - just not with the end product. Similar in a way to Jonny May, he is doing all the right things, really contributing for the team but unlike earlier in the year the ball is not quite coming for him with try scoring opportunities. He has not failed to convert any chances, just when the ball is scored from his wing, he had done the break up the middle, or the try scorer dummies to him and ghosts through a gap.

Or he's providing the scoring pass. His kick chasing too is as good as ever, just depends on the quality of the kicks. May really is one of the finest wings playing at this RWC.

[BamBam]

He's only being made available because World Rugby threatened to punish England if he didn't play.

Lucky he's fit, otherwise people will think we're trying to throw the game if we had to rest him

[No 7&1/2]

I hear he deliberately injured himself again last saturday to ensure england didn't get an advantage for missing out France until the final. He really goes the extra mile.

[SecretFly]

I think Eddie in truth does the old daisy petal child's game before selecting Billy.

He's injured
He's not injured
He's injured
He's fit
He's injured
He's okay to play....

[robbo277]

Interesting stat: England haven't given away a single high tackle penalty all tournament. The caveat of course being Francis was retrospectively issued a yellow card (could have been worse), but it's a good start given the current climate.

[Duty281]

Interesting stat: England haven't given away a single high tackle penalty all tournament. The caveat of course being Francis was retrospectively issued a yellow card (could have been worse), but it's a good start given the current climate.

Alternatively, it means we’re due one or two!

[LondonTiger]

Nowell only guy not in consideration for Saturday apparently. Joseph rumoured to be on the bench - not sure if that is wearing 23 or 22.

[robbo277]

Interesting stat: England haven't given away a single high tackle penalty all tournament. The caveat of course being Francis was retrospectively issued a yellow card (could have been worse), but it's a good start given the current climate.

Alternatively, it means we’re due one or two!

Unless it's something that Jones picked up on early and drilled tackle height in pre-season training camps?

[LondonTiger]

Interesting stat: England haven't given away a single high tackle penalty all tournament. The caveat of course being Francis was retrospectively issued a yellow card (could have been worse), but it's a good start given the current climate.

Alternatively, it means we’re due one or two!

Unless it's something that Jones picked up on early and drilled tackle height in pre-season training camps?

There was a lot of noise just before the tournament started about Farrell working on his tackle technique.

Meanwhile after the Fiji game the Aussie players state they were not aware of any change in how dangerous tackles would be refereed and Cheika stated they had not changed anything in training because "we always look to tackle legally".

[Poorfour]

There was a lot of noise just before the tournament started about Farrell working on his tackle technique.

Meanwhile after the Fiji game the Aussie players state they were not aware of any change in how dangerous tackles would be refereed and Cheika stated they had not changed anything in training because "we always look to tackle legally".

Not only does Cheika not study the opposition, he doesn't study the Law book or its interpretations. He focuses only on what his team can do and that's why they love him so much. "Guys, just do that think you're doing, only more of it."

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