QF1 - Match Thread - England v Australia - 19/10/19 - K/O 08:15 BST

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

Thought I'd get these made nice and early for a few reasons - but one being that we're already now looking ahead to the QFs with several teams having finished their group stage, so it's all heating up for the proper knockout stuff...barring any more disruption.

England



Team: Daly; Watson, Slade, Tuilagi, May; Farrell (capt), Youngs; M Vunipola, George, Sinckler; Itoje, Lawes; Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Marler, Cole, Kruis, Ludlam, Heinz, Ford, Joseph.


Australia



Team: Beale; Hodge, Petaia, Kerevi, Koroibete; Lealiifano, Genia; Alaalatoa, Latu, Sio; Arnold, Rodda; Naisarani, Hooper (c), Pocock.

Replacements: Uelese, Slipper, Tupou, Coleman, Salakaia-Loto, White, To'omua, O'Connor.



Venue: Oita
Referee: Jerome Garces
AR1: Romain Poite
AR2: Mathieu Raynal
TMO: Ben Skeen

[kingelderfield]

1st test against Ozy. Burrell off after 20 Ford on.
This time Slade off, Ford on with Manu outside as should be.
Hes unnecessarily asking too many questions.

[maestegmafia]

Looks like england have picked the team that drew against Scotland in the six nations

[Poorfour]

On reflection, it looks to me more and more like a squad picked to execute a very specific tactical plan. England have not had to give much away tactically so far, but Australia are a step up from any previous opposition.

I suspect that Eddie has had a game plan forming for specifically this game for some time, and this is the team to execute it.

If England can execute it, it will be tricky for Australia to counter it because they haven't seen it before, and if they do suss it out, then there is a bench that can play in a very different style.

Of course, Cheika looks to have done something similar. We will see who has outthought whom, but history would tend to favour Eddie.

[Old Man]

I think that English team selection suggests hit them hard hit them fast.

[maestegmafia]

I think that English team selection suggests hit them hard hit them fast.

The idea of Farrell at ten rather than Ford would appear to be a solid defensive decision, a larger, stronger more physical player to face players being sent at the ten channel. Slade and Tuilagi worked well against France, Ireland and the first thirty against Scotland in the six nations.

The medical staff must be happy that the Vunipola boys are fit again which should be great news

[Poorfour]

My guess is that it's about changing the point of attack. The team picked includes all of England's most powerful carrying options, and also the best passers of the ball.

Fix the defence, then pass. If they don't commit, run at them.

[robbo277]

Mako, Lawes and Slade starting surprises me. We don't lose much in terms of talent, so it's possibly all gameplan. Has Eddie got it right again?

The 23 is largely what I'd have picked, just the configuration different. Over the 80 we should have enough.

[Poorfour]

Tackle hard, draw a card, make them chase the game.

[Taylorman]

Oz side:

Scott Sio
Tolu Latu
Allan Alaalatoa
Izack Rodda
Rory Arnold
David Pocock
Michael Hooper (c)
Isi Naisarani
Will Genia
Christian Lealiifano
Marika Koroibete
Samu Kerevi
Jordan Petaia
Reece Hodge
Kurtley Beale
Bench

Jordan Uelese
James Slipper
Taniela Tupou
Adam Coleman
Lukhan Salakaia-Loto
Nic White
Matt Toomua
James O’Connor

Petaias a big selection here, well done. He’s managed to leave Foley right out, which is good. Beale at FB I think will cost them big time.

Not a bad bench...

[lostinwales]

Back 3 cover -

1) JJ can cover wing
2) Slade to FB looked fine
3) May can cover all 3 positions at the same time (whilst filling in at the back row aswell of course)

In Eddie we trust. We also know he won't be afraid of making changes early if needed, and ithe 23 gives him options. Proper centres in the centre but It isn't the starting 15 I expected.

[Cornish Warrior]

No Jack

The media are excited that Ford is 'Dropped' from the team for the QF, clearly they have missed the fact that he is on the bench.

[lostinwales]

Makeshift 13 vs Tuilagi will be interesting

[LondonTiger]

No Jack

The media are excited that Ford is 'Dropped' from the team for the QF, clearly they have missed the fact that he is on the bench.

As Nowell is injured again, why would anyone with their head screwed on tight expect him to play?

[LondonTiger]

Makeshift 13 vs Tuilagi will be interesting

Could have been interesting. Instead maybe we talk about Kerevi against a makeshift 12 (though same could have been said with Farrell there). One of the things we have never discussed is that none of the England backs play 12 for their club.

[Guest]

Had a feeling Farrell would be back at 10.

Before the WC I would agree, and pretty sure he would have played there against France, but it is a massive risk to take on two players with no form and one in a position that slightly emasculates him.

Na, don't see that as a lack of form. Just a case of slotting back in to the same old, really. This has been more important to get Ford back up to speed, which has worked - no Cipriani chat being at least one positive, surely? - and if he's needed, he's there on the bench. But as I said, and as Ben Ryan said, I don't think England win the RWC with Ford starting at 10.

Don't get the emasculated comment at all.

[Guest]

Lets hope farrell brings his kicking boots for pens and convs and keeps them off the ball when we're attacking or needing to keep possession, which is more often than not, all of the time in the modern game

Na, England's key weapon will be Farrell's boot in transitions. Long balls and May getting on the end of it.

[Guest]

Best rugby they've played is with Slade and Tuilagi in midfield.



Big game for Manu Tuilagi.

Disagree with first comment 100%. As a pairing they have yet to gel.

Agree with second, but actually much bigger for Farrell. Unlike for Sarries where Barritt acts as his eyes and ears, he will have to run the game, making the right decisions.

Ireland game. Slade and Tuilagi. Best performance of EJ's tenure for me. Just think Tuilagi is the difference for England, the man who takes them from a good team, to one with game breaking ability. So, big game, imo, for Tuilagi. Particularly up against two Fijians in their backline.

[LondonTiger]

You will never agree with me miaow on Manu. Having watched him play since he was 17, I do suspect I have seen more of him.

Someone may be able to persuade me that Manu at 12 can work for England, but I doubt anyone will persuade me that he is better there. The Ford/Farrell/Manu midfield looked much more creative than Farrell/Manu/Slade did without losing anything defensively. One issue is that at 12 Manu has been seeing much less of the ball than he has at 13 with Farrell standing much deeper than Ford and using Manu as a dummy runner.

[Taylorman]

Good sentence that last one.

[hugehandoff]

Both coaches keeping us all surprised!

Aus go with a new young player at 13 with little experience and start Genia with Leiliifano for their only 2nd test start together - on the face of it pure madness.

We drop For and start Slade in the 6Ns combo that has not been used in this RWC. Add in Mako and Lawes starting resulting in a not very impactive trio of Kruis, Cole and Marler to finish the game and I have to admit to being confused.

Maybe these Randwick boys are just having a laugh at all of us?

[Guest]

No Jack

The media are excited that Ford is 'Dropped' from the team for the QF, clearly they have missed the fact that he is on the bench.

Harsh on Nowell. I like what he brings, a really different option. But just hasn't played enough rugby. I think 'dropped' is a bit of a contested term. Does it apply to the squad or the starting team? In the old days it meant not starting ofc as no or 1 sub. Now it's a 23 man game. Perhaps the lexicon hasn't caught up yet.

[LondonTiger]

Best rugby they've played is with Slade and Tuilagi in midfield.



Big game for Manu Tuilagi.

Disagree with first comment 100%. As a pairing they have yet to gel.

Agree with second, but actually much bigger for Farrell. Unlike for Sarries where Barritt acts as his eyes and ears, he will have to run the game, making the right decisions.

Ireland game. Slade and Tuilagi. Best performance of EJ's tenure for me. Just think Tuilagi is the difference for England, the man who takes them from a good team, to one with game breaking ability. So, big game, imo, for Tuilagi. Particularly up against two Fijians in their backline.

Dublin performance was excellent, but little to do with the centres. The pack delivered, Youngs was excellent and May chased everything to large effect.

Twickenham warm up, with Manu at 13, gave us a much better idea of what Manu can do when he has the space afforded him.

[LondonTiger]

No Jack

The media are excited that Ford is 'Dropped' from the team for the QF, clearly they have missed the fact that he is on the bench.

Harsh on Nowell. I like what he brings, a really different option. But just hasn't played enough rugby. I think 'dropped' is a bit of a contested term. Does it apply to the squad or the starting team? In the old days it meant not starting ofc as no or 1 sub. Now it's a 23 man game. Perhaps the lexicon hasn't caught up yet.

I repeat, Nowell is #£@&ing injured.

[Guest]

Also, in terms of questions about playmaking etc - I'd expect a LOT more to go through Youngs than has done so far. Expect lots of lateral runs, bringing the likes of the props, Itoje/the back rows, and then the strike running backs on to the ball from relatively flat. Lots of gainline-breaking passes - but then also the chance of an interception, or getting smothered.

Slade's role will be very, very interesting. Think he put his hand up as something special last season. He's your eyes and ears outside Farrell.

[Guest]

Dublin performance was excellent, but little to do with the centres. The pack delivered, Youngs was excellent and May chased everything to large effect.

Twickenham warm up, with Manu at 13, gave us a much better idea of what Manu can do when he has the space afforded him.

That's not the point - and it's not the point I was making. England's best performance was with this backline. You might not think they contributed, but they did. Slade scored the decisive try. Tuilagi was effective. It's also how players are held and lined up in the modern game. In any case, you want both these players on the field, and I think Ford's a guaranteed defensive liability. Makes total sense to me, particularly with England wanting to play effectively 3 playmakers with Daly at 15, the 10, and another in the midfield. Slade's being undervalued by English fans I think. Really classy, natural rugby player.

Really cannot use the warm ups as anything but glorified training runs tbh.

[hugehandoff]

LT....I agree with you in that Manu is clearly a 13 rather than a 12. He actually prefers running into space than just boshing into people and he is at his best when he does so. Hopefully he and Slade swap as required, but Eddie clearly reacting to Kerevi being at 12 which concerns me.

[Guest]

Odds on a card (yellow or red) defining this match? Particularly high tackles?

We know Farrell has form (or lack of it) for this sort of thing, and ofc got yellow carded when England were trailing in the last RWC game. Now as captain, you'd expect better discipline, but who knows. Potential turning point in the game.

[Poorfour]

Odds on a card (yellow or red) defining this match? Particularly high tackles?

We know Farrell has form (or lack of it) for this sort of thing, and ofc got yellow carded when England were trailing in the last RWC game. Now as captain, you'd expect better discipline, but who knows. Potential turning point in the game.

Based on what we've seen so far this RWC (and SCW's utter nonsense about tackles in the air aside), I think card-worthy tackles are far more likely from Australia than from England. That said, England haven't really been put under pressure. It's possible that technique will fail them when the chips are down. But Australia are the team with a player returning from a ban.

[No 7&1/2]

The tuilagi slade partnership has been heavily based around the kicking game so far. Would be nice to see slade step in at first receiver more during this match. If it happens fluidly along with some bushes from 12 it could be perfect and see tuilagi s burst from OC and his real strengths as LT says.

[No 7&1/2]

I dont think you ever came back with which match you were judging Tuilagi at 13 for miaow?

[formerly known as Sam]

Dropping our form player for our biggest name who hasn't delivered in the RWC so far nor in the friendlies is a big risk particularly at 10.

I think we're gambling on the loose battle being tougher than the set piece with Lawes and Mako starting. Plan seems to be get in front and then control territory and set piece to see out the game.

[robbo277]

From an England perspective it looks like that 13 channel is the place to attack. Be that runners Manu switching out to get one-on-one or Manu at 12 as a decoy with runners from the back 3 off Slade and Daly.

Maybe those wider channels will be targeted to negate Pocock and Hooper to an extent?

Kicking game might be key as well. Intelligent kicks backed up by good chases can put this Aussie back 3 under pressure. Beale is capable of the sublime at times but also the ridiculous. If we can put enough pressure on him we should be able to get some change.

[BamBam]

I can't say I'm that surprised with this selection. For what its worth, this was essentially the lineup against Ireland in Dublin, with everyone bar Underhill and Watson being fit at the time. I've posted a couple of times that I think he's wanted to go back to this midfield, with the option of Ford opening up the game or adding his tactical kicking to help close a game out

We know what Ford's weakness is - he makes his tackles but he is a smaller player and will give up ground without support. Against a side like Australia where their attacking play can take anyone apart, we have to stop them gaining any kind of momentum. I think EJ wants the first 30 mins to be rock solid at the gain line, that 10-12 combo won't give away any ground and Slade has proven himself as a strong defender. England don't hide their fly half in the defensive line, and Farrell will hold strong at 10 - just hope his tackle technique holds up under pressure

Kerevi is a danger on his own, but now they've added this young lad at 13 who looks pretty hefty himself, so can see the argument for this selection. We've been talking about Curry and Underhill needing to nullify the Aussie flankers, if they also had to worry about supporting the England 10 channel, that may limit their effectiveness.

No one's really talking about it, but Lawes ahead of Kruis is a big call too. Kruis runs the set piece so well, and the Australian lineout has looked good recently. Its a big vote of confidence in Itoje / Lawes, because they are our best two locks in open play imo. Think we'll see Lawes told to go fly half hunting, rattle them early and get them going backwards.

The bench looks ready to close out a game, but if we're chasing then we're lacking a bit of carrying power in the forwards. Hopefully we have a decent lead at 50 mins then can play the tactical kicking game with Ford and Farrell, with the experienced props and Kruis to control the set piece

[Guest]

I dont think you ever came back with which match you were judging Tuilagi at 13 for miaow?

?

[Guest]

[quote="formerly known as Sam"]Dropping our form player for our biggest name who hasn't delivered in the RWC so far nor in the friendlies is a big risk particularly at 10[quote]

I suppose because you've played the US, Tonga, and 17 mins v a poor Argentinian side, how much does that form really count for? He's on the bench if you need him. He's not been dropped out of the squad.

Makes sense to me. Power game first up, and if and only if you need it, the more progressive stuff against one of the most dangerous attacks in the world, if not only second to the ABs, with maybe Fiji pipping them as well.

[formerly known as Sam]

Dropping our form player for our biggest name who hasn't delivered in the RWC so far nor in the friendlies is a big risk particularly at 10

I suppose because you've played the US, Tonga, and 17 mins v a poor Argentinian side, how much does that form really count for? He's on the bench if you need him. He's not been dropped out of the squad.

Makes sense to me. Power game first up, and if and only if you need it, the more progressive stuff against one of the most dangerous attacks in the world, if not only second to the ABs, with maybe Fiji pipping them as well.

Unsure what you are trying to get at in the first paragraph. Are you trying to suggest that Ford looking good in those games is due to the standard of the opposition? If so Farrell played in the same games and looked off the pace.

We look like we are going to play narrower and take the battle to Australia. Stop Pocock and Hooper roaming and pin them in narrow hoping to create room out wide. I'm not sure about the alleged strength of this Australia attack, the lack of a settled playmaker and the over reliance on a solitary playmaker in the backline makes an obvious opportunity to smother them in defence. In attack we are putting a lot of pressure on our pack to dominate the breakdown close in and batter Hooper and Pocock back. Playing with fire a bit there. Given the rules around head contact the concern isn't just tackle but at the ruck and the likely ferocity there

[Recwatcher16]

Understandable the focus is on Ford being dropped but EJ has decided that what Slade offers at 13 is cultured boot to punt through the line for Daly, May & Watson to sprint onto and apply pressure to a shaky back three Oz defence. They will have to sprint though, as if Beale gets time on the ball it will not be good news for England.
Twelve & thirteen will probably also swap for planned plays for Manu to test out the young 13 that Chieka has selected.
A lot of Oz best plays involve breaking the line at twelve and clearly Manu is mandated to stop those plays in their tracks.

Virtually the whole starting pack are ball carriers with the bench being strong at set piece, so EJ has done that for a reason rather than a mix and match selection. The back row contest will be fascinating contrast of styles. I might be biased but the best of the flankers was Pocock but now might be Underhill taking over. JJ is in top form and would love to see him come on but with Ford anticipated and Farrell to twelve, there doesn't look room unless there is an injury. Disappointed but not surprised that Cokanasiga also hasn't squeezed into the twenty three, as he had a top game against Oz last time.
Garces has improved from probably being the weakest of the French refs to the strongest but he is still French and will let an awful lot at the breakdown go, which will probably suit Oz.
Despite Oz form being pretty poor, this is probably going to be a tighter game than the bookies suggest.

[Guest]

Unsure what you are trying to get at in the first paragraph. Are you trying to suggest that Ford looking good in those games is due to the standard of the opposition? If so Farrell played in the same games and looked off the pace.

Can't really put too much on how players perform v minnows when it comes to games like this. Also, wasn't Farrell tackled in the head in 2 of those games? And captain, and playing at 12 etc.?

[Gooseberry]

I can't say I'm that surprised with this selection. For what its worth, this was essentially the lineup against Ireland in Dublin, with everyone bar Underhill and Watson being fit at the time. I've posted a couple of times that I think he's wanted to go back to this midfield, with the option of Ford opening up the game or adding his tactical kicking to help close a game out

We know what Ford's weakness is - he makes his tackles but he is a smaller player and will give up ground without support. Against a side like Australia where their attacking play can take anyone apart, we have to stop them gaining any kind of momentum. I think EJ wants the first 30 mins to be rock solid at the gain line, that 10-12 combo won't give away any ground and Slade has proven himself as a strong defender. England don't hide their fly half in the defensive line, and Farrell will hold strong at 10 - just hope his tackle technique holds up under pressure

Kerevi is a danger on his own, but now they've added this young lad at 13 who looks pretty hefty himself, so can see the argument for this selection. We've been talking about Curry and Underhill needing to nullify the Aussie flankers, if they also had to worry about supporting the England 10 channel, that may limit their effectiveness.

No one's really talking about it, but Lawes ahead of Kruis is a big call too. Kruis runs the set piece so well, and the Australian lineout has looked good recently. Its a big vote of confidence in Itoje / Lawes, because they are our best two locks in open play imo. Think we'll see Lawes told to go fly half hunting, rattle them early and get them going backwards.

The bench looks ready to close out a game, but if we're chasing then we're lacking a bit of carrying power in the forwards. Hopefully we have a decent lead at 50 mins then can play the tactical kicking game with Ford and Farrell, with the experienced props and Kruis to control the set piece

Adding to the comments on the defensive side of things England having Tuilagi at 12 puts him in the position where hes best placed to put big hits in on the Aus playmakers early. Its maybe not the most romantic thinking in rugby, but a but a few bruised ribs early in the game is a pretty effective tool to limit and rush the oppositions attacking flair. 

I do though think as others have mentioned that its a big call to back Youngs and Farrell for 50+ when both have been off, especially considering Farrells meltdown with the boot. But ultimately these are Englands top players, if Jones doesnt back them he shouldnt have been consistently picking them for the past 4 years.

10-13 is the least certain part of Englands line up, and maybe its this choice that will be pointed at if things go badly for England but its quite justifiable. I also always feel a bit uncomfortable having no proper wing/fullback cover off the bench when we have Farrell and Daly who can fill in at centre. 

But really England are pretty settled and confident and know what works for them. Its such a change from 2007, 2011 and 2015 when they went into the tournaments with a great deal of uncertainty about line ups and chopped and changed to account for injuries and failures. 

For all the talk of being undercooked Im much happier to see and England side at first choice with everyone in their standard role (yeah no proper fullback blah blah).

[BamBam]

Agree on the 23 shirt - even if Nowell is out, in the event of an injury to Daly / winger surely the option of Cokanasiga on the wing with Watson covering FB is better than Slade dropping to FB

[robbo277]

Agree on the 23 shirt - even if Nowell is out, in the event of an injury to Daly / winger surely the option of Cokanasiga on the wing with Watson covering FB is better than Slade dropping to FB

Against Tonga, we finished with Farrell, Slade, Tuilagi, Joseph, Watson and Daly on the pitch, so if we have a back three injury it's essentially the same configuration, with 2 of Watson, Daly and May on there. It's definitely a line-up they've worked with before, although not a conventional one.

[BamBam]

Yeah I'm sure it would work in an emergency, but an early injury to a winger and I wouldn't fancy seeing it against the Aus back 3 for 60 mins

Can't cover everything though

[formerly known as Sam]

Unsure what you are trying to get at in the first paragraph. Are you trying to suggest that Ford looking good in those games is due to the standard of the opposition? If so Farrell played in the same games and looked off the pace.

Can't really put too much on how players perform v minnows when it comes to games like this. Also, wasn't Farrell tackled in the head in 2 of those games? And captain, and playing at 12 etc.?

We could discuss Farrell in the warm up games where he was also off the pace. Anyone else, apart from Youngs, would have. Been dropped.

I don't like the midfield combination, it's had a tendency to fail such as in the 6N Vs Wales they couldn't create anything and against Scotland where we imploded second half and needed Ford to come on and rescue us. There's not enough control even with Slade in there for my liking and an off form Farrell just deepens my concern. The extra physicality might work Vs Australia but I hope we look at a different option for NZ if we get through.

[No 7&1/2]

I'm sure I read miaow that you felt that tuilagi had performed better at 12 than 13? Maybe it wasnt you.

[No 7&1/2]

I'm fairly comfortable though sam that the pack should be able.to maintain good control of this game.even should it become a broken field game pur back 3 then comes into it's own. Slade does need to step up though now. Hes been decent so far but he has tuilagi and Joseph with farrell obviously breathing down his neck. We need to see his distribution skill alot more.

[lostinwales]

The Australians have basically admitted that there are concerns over Leiliifano's fitness given the incredible hurdles he has overcome even to be here.

I am sure he's going to be wearing a target.

[lostinwales]

Slade was talking up the understanding he has with Manu in the run up to the RWC.

If they can switch easily between 12 and 13 they could be quite the combo, although I would have been happier had we seen more of it in the last few weeks.

[Old Man]

I would have preferred Toomua at 10 for the Wallabies

[Geordie]

Im still a "jurys out" on Slade for England im afraid....

[Geordie]

I'm fairly comfortable though sam that the pack should be able.to maintain good control of this game.even should it become a broken field game pur back 3 then comes into it's own. Slade does need to step up though now. Hes been decent so far but he has tuilagi and Joseph with farrell obviously breathing down his neck. We need to see his distribution skill alot more.

Completely agree 7.5
Im very unconvinced so far. He is incredlby skilled as he shows for Exeter week in week out....but at this level he really needs to start and dominate games and put his control on them.

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