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England's Winter

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Post by Duty281 on Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:14 pm

First topic message reminder :

As per LT's original post:
New Zealand

T20 Internationals

Friday November 1st - Christchurch
Sunday November 3rd - Wellington
Tuesday November 5th - Nelson
Friday November 8th - Napier
Sunday November 10th - Auckland

Squad
Eoin Morgan (Middlesex) captain
Jonny Bairstow (Yorkshire)
Tom Banton (Somerset)
Sam Billings (Kent)
Pat Brown (Worcestershire)
Sam Curran (Surrey)
Tom Curran (Surrey)
Joe Denly (Kent)
Lewis Gregory (Somerset)
Chris Jordan (Sussex)
Saqib Mahmood (Lancashire)
Dawid Malan (Middlesex)
Matt Parkinson (Lancashire)
Adil Rashid (Yorkshire)
James Vince (Hampshire)


Tests

Wednesday November 20th - Tauranga
Thursday November 28th - Hamilton

Squad
Joe Root (Yorkshire) captain
Jofra Archer (Sussex)
Stuart Broad (Nottinghamshire)
Rory Burns (Surrey)
Jos Buttler (Lancashire)
Zak Crawley (Kent)
Sam Curran (Surrey)
Joe Denly (Kent)
Jack Leach (Somerset)
Saqib Mahmood (Lancashire)
Matthew Parkinson (Lancashire)
Ollie Pope (Surrey)
Dominic Sibley (Warwickshire)
Ben Stokes (Durham)
Chris Woakes (Warwickshire)



South Africa

Tests

Thursday 26th December - Centurion
Friday January 3rd - Cape Town
Thursday January 16th - Port Elizabeth
Friday January 24th - Johannesburg

Squad
Ill


ODI
Tuesday 4th February - Cape Town
Friday 7th February - Durban
Sunday 9th February - Johannesburg

Squad
Ill

T20 Internationals

Wednesday 12th February - East London
Friday 14th February - Durban
Sunday 16th February - Centurion


Sri Lanka

March 7th - Warm up 1, Katunayake (3 day)
March 12th - Warm up 2, Colombo (3 day)
March 19th - 1st Test, Galle
March 27th - 2nd Test, Colombo

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Post by alfie on Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:34 pm

Hmm. Not much happening so far. Bess not threatening.

I suspect this might be a long hard slog to ten wickets. Though perhaps once one goes we will see things change. Might be glad they have a lot of time and a lot of runs to play with.

Root has a poor record in these situations as captain , fair to say. He would like to improve it here.

Elgar is the one they really want.

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Post by guildfordbat on Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:51 pm

alfie wrote:Not the best start...why waste a review on an lbw against Malan (no disrespect intended) unless you are absolutely certain ?

Broad is always certain though. Wink

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:07 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
alfie wrote:Not the best start...why waste a review on an lbw against Malan (no disrespect intended) unless you are absolutely certain ?

Broad is always certain though. Wink


My first thought on reading this was " I bet it was Broad!"

Seems England are willing to play a bit of patience and not go chasing wickets, but bowling Bess (with the new ball) and even a change over from Denly seems a touch conservative for my liking. maybe some impact on them of not wanting to bowl Stokes other than a last resort. They have time and the scoreboard on their side, but it does feel a bit passive and my "its England" doubts are twinging already.

*edit they are actually bowling Denly as a proper option it seems with the ball just 20 overs old...hmmmm

..and an over from Root to finish? Really? Feels like a wasted session all round...the few runs England plundered have been eaten up by SA's patience and some placid bowling. Start again from scratch just will an older ball. Seems England think theres some help for the spinners, which seems odd given theres only been a couple of wickets fall to them all game.

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Post by Duty281 on Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:28 pm

Root’s captaincy an utter mess - going through six bowlers already.

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Post by Duty281 on Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:57 pm

Root’s got so overexcited by a patch of rough that he has become convinced that Joe Denly is the man to bowl England to victory.

Elgar’s got a right shocker of a call there.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:03 pm

Denly does it!

God I love Denly

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:20 pm

I'm not sure having Joe Denly bowl more overs than James Anderson after 48 overs is the way to win this game. Might just be me. Seems a bad idea
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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:27 pm

Joe Denly is England’s best everything

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:32 pm

23 overs of spin, half of it part time (Im being generous to Bess) is not what youd expect from a side with 4 seamers, albeit that Denly is the only wicket taker. SA have no interest in scoring runs, Im not sure the tactic of "applying pressure" by bowling fluff is really valid. Either they shouldve picked Parkinson because this is a spinners pitch ( its isnt) or this is a very odd approach (it is)

Only England and Pakistan can mess up situations like they had at the start of this innings.

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Post by Duty281 on Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:45 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I'm not sure having Joe Denly bowl more overs than James Anderson after 48 overs is the way to win this game. Might just be me. Seems a bad idea

Anderson gets brought on like an afterthought by Root but he delivers. Timely. Very, very timely.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:45 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I'm not sure having Joe Denly bowl more overs than James Anderson after 48 overs is the way to win this game. Might just be me. Seems a bad idea

Call me a visionary - but having James Anderson bowl is a good idea.
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Post by king_carlos on Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:47 pm

Got to love Jimmy. Still got it. Given the ball was reversing a hint I'm amazed it took that long to get Jimmy back into the attack but at least he's got that vital breakthrough.

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Post by Duty281 on Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:51 pm

Root now gifts Malan an easy single to get off the strike in the final over of the day.

No end to the man’s tactical stupidity.

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Post by king_carlos on Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:59 pm

Fortunate to get that 2nd wicket after a frustrating spell to watch.

Root has been criticised for being uninventive so often that it almost felt he was trying to be too cute this evening. Hold down a spinner at one end and rotate the seamers from the other to see who/what type of bowler is getting the most purchase. Annoying to see Curran and Anderson bowling late, getting the ball to shape and looking more dangerous.

I don't mind Denly turning his arm over. Wrist spinners offer something different and have a knack of breaking patnerships. I was always surprised that Simon Katich didn't turn his arm over more for instance. Once we got the fortunate breakthrough it was time to attack with the seamers though.

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:17 pm

Thing is Curran was doing a better job gettt8ngbthebsquueze on early ...but frankly SA shouldn't care less if they are scoring much or not just whether they are stating in. It's not like they are chasing down 250 off 50 overs or something. Root seems to think they are all as bad as the england batsmen for getting frustrated. ( and the fans!)
Have to say Curran has started to grow as a bowler, hes almost always used sparingly which was quite justifiable qhe. He was going at 4 or 5 an over but really seems to have tightened up a bit.
But still not offering enough threat today. England could really do with finding that 90mph bowler for these situations overseas....
Oh.


They are still in a winning position. It's easy to forget that and that SA are in bad batting shape themselves . But I just dont trust England anymore. They are capable of stuffing this u.

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Post by VTR on Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:57 pm

I have faith in England to close this out. A couple of early wickets tomorrow and it starts to look very different, even if one is the nightwatchman. I can easily see SA being 5 down before the new ball, then they really will be up against it

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Post by Duty281 on Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:59 pm

England should close it out, but I’m reminded of Headingley 2017 and how Shai Hope batted the Windies to victory. Going into the final day they needed another 317 to win, albeit with all 10 wickets remaining. It’s a similarly placid surface for this game.

After Maharaj gets out, it’ll be Malan and Du Plessis and that should be the key partnership to decide the game. England break it early and they’ll canter. But if they get settled, and Root panics and starts sending Denly on for ten overs of leg side lobs, they could take the home side to a position of safety or a platform where De Kock’s power striking sees ‘em go two up.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:29 pm

SA won't be getting near the target, the question is if they can survive.

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Post by alfie on Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:16 pm

Didn't stay for the last session but not too surprised to see only two down...unless the pitch changes a lot overnight extraction of the rest might be a long drawn out battle.

Like many , was a bit surprised to see the early emphasis on spin : not exactly a spitting cobra , is it ? And there isn't a Swann in the attack... Had thought a bit more use of Anderson and Broad while the ball was hard and new would have been logical.

However - putting myself in Root's shoes : it may be that England really did not expect to run through SA ; have concluded that it is going to be a long job however they go about it - and that those two ageing warriors are the main likely weapons to do the job. And that in that case , since each already bowled 19 overs in the first innings , he needs to keep their workload down to ensure they will be able to return to action several times on the last day (an early burst ; a new ball assault - and probably at least one later effort). So he's effectively holding them back for the vital moments and hoping the other bowlers will chip out the odd victim in the meantime.

Is this how I would go about it ? Probably not ; but given Root's innate caution and the fact that he's been bitten on the last day once or twice in the past I think it is a plausible explanation for his tactics.

As to whether it is a "good" idea...we will see sometime on day five Smile

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Post by alfie on Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:25 pm

Duty281 wrote:England should close it out, but I’m reminded of Headingley 2017 and how Shai Hope batted the Windies to victory. Going into the final day they needed another 317 to win, albeit with all 10 wickets remaining. It’s a similarly placid surface for this game.

After Maharaj gets out, it’ll be Malan and Du Plessis and that should be the key partnership to decide the game. England break it early and they’ll canter. But if they get settled, and Root panics and starts sending Denly on for ten overs of leg side lobs, they could take the home side to a position of safety or a platform where De Kock’s power striking sees ‘em go two up.

Bit different from that Headingley situation though. For one thing , SA are one up , and are unlikely to be taking any risks tomorrow...they appear to have a determined mindset to try and save the game (and this doesn't seem impractical if they bat with concentration and determination and a bit of luck) so you'd think the run rate will be fairly slow early in the day. And looking back at this match the most runs scored in one day (the only time over about 260) were the 299 scored yesterday. And that included a lot of pressure free all out attack from Stokes. 312 on the last day seems a bit of a stretch.

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Post by Pal Joey on Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:04 am

Yes, with SA currently scoring at 2.25 RPO; it's highly unlikely that they can (or will even attempt) to score at just under 3.5 to go for the win.

The most likely scenario is that the rate required will be heading up towards 4 around lunch. I'm not so confident that they will be able to bat out the day for a draw. A few early wickets in the morning session and we could see SA fully capitulate before tea... or just after.
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Post by kingraf on Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:24 am

Big day ahead. England need to get 8 wickets on a deck where to be honest, they were lucky to get two yesterday, because I'm not sure Elgar edged that first stick. That said though, the history of Test cricket suggests that these resistances generally end in failure and I don't think our batting line up is good enough to buck the 140-year trend.

Hopefully though, we get a good performance from Pieter Malan or Dwaine Pretorius, especially, as it will do the them the world of good to know they belong at this level.

As an aside the likelihood of a result from this wicket is dependent on the sun baking down on this pitch FOR A FIFTH DAY long enough to create some deterioration. Not ideal as the ICC presses on for four day Tests (which BTW, I'm not totally against. Giving Tests Thursday-Sunday slots - outside of accepted well attended staples like the Boxing Day and New Year's Tests seems the most commercially viable plan of action)
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Post by kingraf on Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:28 am

Also, Joe Root needs to be tested for crack for bowling so much spin on a pitch which has seen like 3 wickets fall to spin in four days. Not sure what he saw in Keshav Maharaj being despatched to Row 26 repeatedly that would have made him think there's something here for a part-timer
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Post by alfie on Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:52 am

Didn't take long to remove the night watchman. Jimmy a bit too good for Maharaj...he nearly walked before the umpire gave him out.
England will be glad their bowlers will be fresh to have a crack at du Plessis : he's not done much with the bat this series but we know he can play - and has a good temperament for a rearguard action.

Get one of these early and they'll fancy it. Let them both get set and they've got a job on their hands...

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Post by alfie on Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:56 am

kingraf wrote:Also, Joe Root needs to be tested for crack for bowling so much spin on a pitch which has seen like 3 wickets fall to spin in four days. Not sure what he saw in Keshav Maharaj being despatched to Row 26 repeatedly that would have made him think there's something here for a part-timer

Nice to see you back on the cricket board , raf thumbsup

Hadn't seen you around for a while. Been busy elsewhere ?

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Post by superflyweight on Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:10 am

alfie wrote:
kingraf wrote:Also, Joe Root needs to be tested for crack for bowling so much spin on a pitch which has seen like 3 wickets fall to spin in four days. Not sure what he saw in Keshav Maharaj being despatched to Row 26 repeatedly that would have made him think there's something here for a part-timer

Nice to see you back on the cricket board , raf thumbsup

Hadn't  seen you around for a while.  Been busy elsewhere ?

The ACTION NETBALL season must be over.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:15 am

This is his 26th test since his 35th birthday, with Jimmy taking 104 wickets at an average of under 21.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:16 am

Faf is probably the one batsmen with the possible exception of Collingwood you want batting in this situation.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:17 am

Once one of these two goes then England should be well on the sniff to victory, theres not a lot of depth to SAs batting. But still that nagging doubt persists, the absence of Archer and an attacking spinner if felt on days like this. 

Bess holding up an end theory ...all of the seamers in this innings have been more economical than him so far. Far too much of him yesterday and still only 8 overs for Curran.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:18 am

LondonTiger wrote:This is his 26th test since his 35th birthday, with Jimmy taking 104 wickets at an average of under 21.


Quite something given he'd had a poor (by his standards) 2019!

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Post by alfie on Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:31 am

Anderson has bowled some testing stuff this morning. Bit of reverse , accurate . Clever bowling. Broad not so much.

I think I'd have had Jimmy bowl one more but understand they don't want to kill him in one spell. Bess now : hope he can threaten a bit more than yesterday. SA will be happy with the way they've handled the first hour.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:33 am

Burns out for 4 months, missing the Sri Lanka tour.

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Post by alfie on Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:56 am

Lively from Stokes. Bess tidy. Just a hint that something might happen soon...

Will need to , for England. If these two get through to lunch SA resolve will be strengthened- and Root's confidence/patience/sense will be tested.

New ball in six overs though. Just before lunch ?

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Post by alfie on Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:05 am

Bess draws the mistake ! Faf furious with himself as he picks out Joe Denly...who was not dropping that one Smile

Big break just before the new ball.

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Post by alfie on Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:08 am

Had a feeling there might have been a wicket coming then. Bess will be encouraged...he is getting a bit of turn now and then.
The mental pressure of batting for a draw ...

Long way to go.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:22 am

I was about to post that Stokes was more likely to draw a mistake as he was encouraging the batsmen to play whereas they were largely just watching Bess bowl.
No wonder faf was furious, a definate lapse in concentration /rigour.

Keep chipping away.... it's frustrating but still just about on track.

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Post by alfie on Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:23 am

Interesting call...new ball immediately , Sam Curran to use it.

I might have given Bess one more but ten minutes to lunch , it is something different.
Unfortunately Sam's radar is a bit off...easy leaves.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:29 am

Makes sense to open with Curran so that Broad can replace Anderson from the Wynberg end.

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Post by Duty281 on Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:37 am

Not a lot of batting left so England will be very happy with how the morning’s gone - Du Plessis a vital wicket.

Think South Africa should try and be a little more positive with the bat and try to put some pressure back on England.


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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:39 am

Duty281 wrote:Not a lot of batting left so England will be very happy with how the morning’s gone - Du Plessis a vital wicket.

Think South Africa should try and be a little more positive with the bat and try to put some pressure back on England.


So they should do the one thing that increases the chances of getting out?

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Post by Duty281 on Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:45 am

Soul Requiem wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Not a lot of batting left so England will be very happy with how the morning’s gone - Du Plessis a vital wicket.

Think South Africa should try and be a little more positive with the bat and try to put some pressure back on England.


So they should do the one thing that increases the chances of getting out?

No, good rotation of the strike (as Elgar and Malan were doing brilliantly yesterday) disrupts a bowler’s rhythm, decreases pressure and makes them less likely to get out. Trying to soak up six dots an over will only end in one way.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:59 am

Still more than 10 overs fro each wicket required but theres no demons out there and no express pace. Very much a battle of wills and discipline and a war of attrition. England seem largely reliant on drawing mistakes rather than miracle balls, just need to hold their nerve line and lengths. SA happy to sit the game out as best they can and soak up the pretty placid bowling. Its the sort of situation where a fully fit Stokes sometimes comes in and makes something happen, or a fully functional Archer would hurtle in and give the batsmen something else to think about. Instead we have 3 seamers bowling barely above medium place and a county spinner. 
But it still SHOULD be enough.

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Post by alfie on Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:19 am

Important hour now. Two with this new ball and England will think all downhill from there. SA survive intact they'll sight safe harbour.

Jimmy not on field yet ? Better not be a problem or draw becomes favourite !

Hasn't Malan played well ? Doing a great job for his side thumbsup

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Post by alfie on Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:25 am

Gooseberry wrote:Still more than 10 overs fro each wicket required but theres no demons out there and no express pace. Very much a battle of wills and discipline and a war of attrition. England seem largely reliant on drawing mistakes rather than miracle balls, just need to hold their nerve line and lengths. SA happy to sit the game out as best they can and soak up the pretty placid bowling. Its the sort of situation where a fully fit Stokes sometimes comes in and makes something happen, or a fully functional Archer would hurtle in and give the batsmen something else to think about. Instead we have 3 seamers bowling barely above medium place and a county spinner. 
But it still SHOULD be enough.

Yeh be nice to have an express bowler but not automatically the panacea. Archer didn't do anything on placid decks in NZ.
Stokes is providing plenty of fire and I think the others have all bowled pretty well. Only takes one ball - one mistake.
Do need something with this new ball though.

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Post by Duty281 on Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:29 am

There’s the key wicket. Should be the game. Fabulous hand from Malan, likely to be in vain.

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Post by alfie on Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:29 am

Yes Yahoo

Sam Curran strikes... Surprised Malan with bounce and Stokes does the rest...

Fine 84 for Malan has at least given SA hope ...but they're under pressure now.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:31 am

That's the game, don't expect the resistance to last much longer, not sure De Kock has the ability to hang around.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:39 am

Getting bounced out by Curran...he wont live that one down in a hurry!

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Post by alfie on Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:41 am

Not calling it yet , though odds have tipped towards England with that wicket. Van der Dussen seems to have settled in now - and we know he has patience and good concentration. Not really de Kock's game I guess but he is a damn good player.
Get one of these and Philander will be the main obstacle I think. He won't throw it away.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:49 am

alfie wrote:Not calling it yet , though odds have tipped towards England with that wicket. Van der Dussen seems to have settled in now - and we know he has patience and good concentration.  Not really de Kock's game I guess but he is a damn good player.
Get one of these and Philander will be the main obstacle I think. He won't throw it away.


Apparently in 1906 SA's number 8 put on 93 and a 48 run 10th wicket partnership with the 11 in the 4th innings to beat England 

Anythings possible....

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