ENGLAND v WALES - Match Thread / Build up - 7/3/2020

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Post by TightHEAD on Mon 24 Feb 2020, 4:29 pm

First topic message reminder :

England  rose  v Wales  Wales  - 07/03/2020 - 16:45pm - the HOME of Rugby.

England XV

Daly; Watson, Tuilagi, Farrell, May; Ford, Youngs; Marler, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Kruis, Lawes, Wilson, Curry

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Stuart, Launchbury, Ewels, Earl, Heinz, Slade


Wales XV

Halfpenny; North, Tompkins, Parkes, Williams; Biggar, T Williams; R Evans, Owens, D Lewis, Ball, AW Jones (capt), Moriarty, Navidi, Tipuric.

Replacements: Elias, Carre, L Brown, Shingler, Faletau, Webb, J Evans, McNicholl.



Overall - Played 134 - Eng 63 - Wales 59 - Drawn 12


Last edited by TightHEAD on Thu 05 Mar 2020, 1:18 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Post by majesticimperialman on Tue 25 Feb 2020, 6:40 pm

Another benefit is that I would not have to listen to him whinging and whining at the ref every time a decision goes against Wales.

I think you may be getting mixup between AWJ, and Dan Biggar. Laugh

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Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 25 Feb 2020, 7:16 pm

Thompkins can play wing if needs be, in which case he would put Watkin in... in his worst position. Liam Williams could be an option. It might be asking a bit much of him right now though. If we go with Evans and Biggar at 10/12 then that would probably mean Parkes on the bench covering both positions. There's a lot of options we can try and it's probably what our tournament is about now.

I think if you're going to include Wainwright then it should be as cover for 7. We need Shingler or possibly Hill on the field wearing 6 to help deal with Itoje at the breakdown - both of which are lineout callers/jumpers. Rowlands is the lock option on the bench for me.

Lastly, Dillon Lewis is too great a liability. He has been since just before the world cup. Why are we so reluctant to give more game time to Brown who's done well in his cameo's? Why aren't we bringing Carre and John into the 23? All three props are good around the field and better in the scrum from what I've seen. If it's a weight advantage we're after then they also help in that regard.

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Post by Guest on Tue 25 Feb 2020, 8:20 pm

Well after getting the Ireland v England game just about spot on I hope I'm wrong about this one but all I can see is Wales making some nice attacking moves and maybe storing a pretty try but England winning comfortably.

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Post by Guest on Tue 25 Feb 2020, 8:22 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:...I'd drop Faletau...
What's the thinking there? Just to give game time to other prospects, or genuine dissatisfaction with his current performance?

He's been very good at the dirty work in both games so far. Moriarty's good showing means Wainwright is the one who might drop out for Shingler but no signs Pivac will do that.

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Post by Guest on Tue 25 Feb 2020, 8:26 pm

The Oracle wrote:
BamBam wrote:We all know an England game is the closest Wales are ever getting to a World Cup final, can't blame them for treating it that way


Nah, the closest we ever got to a world cup semi final was when we played NZ, SA and France in the various semis.  But nice try Wink

...and when we lost by 3 points (wink wink Chris Robshaw).

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Post by Guest on Tue 25 Feb 2020, 8:30 pm

Afro wrote:Josh Adams out of the rest of the 6 nations

Well this means it's Liam Williams or Louis Rees Zammitt to come in to at least the 23. I think we would all love the fairytale of the youngster but England were ruthless against Steff Evans (and Rhys Patchell) 2 years ago in a quagmire. Given how they targeted Ireland I think we should look for experience wherever possible. Biggar needs to stay fit otherwise we have no chance. McNicholl is playing himself in to the Welsh shirt and will be a solid pick to start. We might even start with 3 full backs in the back 3 if Halfpenny, McNicholl, and Liam Williams play. Would be a good way to counter England's attacking kicking game which still looks lethal.

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Post by TightHEAD on Tue 25 Feb 2020, 9:53 pm

https://rugbydump.com/news/ben-ryan-reiterates-that-rugby-laws-are-blatantly-broken-and-ignored

Very true, the clip in that is shocking, how did Ireland get away with that fecking Poopie?
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Post by Cyril on Tue 25 Feb 2020, 10:06 pm

That’s four or five instances i’ve seen now and remember wincing in real time. Were any Irish players cited? The number of shoulders and forearms coming into heads of English players in the ruck was very noticeable. Reminds me of SA players like Botha on the 2009 Lions tour.

Several yellows or even straight reds there.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 26 Feb 2020, 8:45 am

guestalt_physicality wrote:
Afro wrote:Josh Adams out of the rest of the 6 nations

Well this means it's Liam Williams or Louis Rees Zammitt to come in to at least the 23. I think we would all love the fairytale of the youngster but England were ruthless against Steff Evans (and Rhys Patchell) 2 years ago in a quagmire. Given how they targeted Ireland I think we should look for experience wherever possible. Biggar needs to stay fit otherwise we have no chance. McNicholl is playing himself in to the Welsh shirt and will be a solid pick to start. We might even start with 3 full backs in the back 3 if Halfpenny, McNicholl, and Liam Williams play. Would be a good way to counter England's attacking kicking game which still looks lethal.

Selecting Liam Williams would be madness. He has not played a match since the WC (I think) and there is no way he should be risked. Steff Evans never had a good enough all round game. Throwing LZR into a debut at Twickenham may not be ideal, even if I think he would thrive. I guess much also depends upon North's concussion symptoms (that is another major issue that he needs to address for his long term health).

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Post by Comfort on Wed 26 Feb 2020, 8:47 am

Pivac's put himself in a corner here for this game with his selections this far....

ZLR or Liam Williams has to come in now... Ones coming back from an injury and one hasn't ever played test rugby let alone against England at Twickenham....

Dillon Lewis will continue at 3 despite offering very little....

What I'd like to see, doubting it will happen...

1. Wyn Jones
2. Owens
3. Brown
4. AW Jones
5. Rowlands
6. Moriarty
7. Tips
8. Faletau
9. T Williams
10. Evans
11. ZLR
12. Parkes
13. Tomkins
14. Halfpenny
15. McNicholl

16. Carre
17. Elias
18. John
19. Ball
20. Wainwright
21. Davies
22. Biggar
23. Watkin

Risky, but I can't see us getting a win with all our most experienced players on the park and I'd happily reward some strong cameos thus far with some starts and continue the evolution.

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Wed 26 Feb 2020, 10:49 am

Rugby World Cup stars Anthony Watson and Mark Wilson have been called up to a 25-man England training squad for their Six Nations match against Wales.

Bath wing Watson has yet to play in this year's Championship because of a calf injury.

Meanwhile Newcastle flanker Wilson - who is on loan at Sale - recently returned to action after knee surgery.

Prop Mako Vunipola and hooker Luke Cowan-Dickie are absent for family reasons.

Saracens back-row forward Ben Earl, who won his first caps against Scotland and Ireland, has not been included, while Exeter prop Harry Williams has been preferred to Bath's Will Stuart.

Northampton full-back George Furbank, who missed the win against Ireland, will continue his rehabilitation in camp.

Head coach Eddie Jones' slimmed-down squad meet on Wednesday lunchtime in Oxford for three days of training before the game at Twickenham on 7 March.

England re-established their Six Nations title credentials with a 24-12 victory over Ireland on Sunday.

England squad

Forwards: Curry, Dunn, Ewels, Genge, George, Itoje, Kruis, Launchbury, Lawes, Ludlam, Marler, Sinckler, Underhill, Williams Wilson.

Backs: Daly, Farrell, Ford, Heinz, Joseph, May, Slade, Tuilagi, Watson, Youngs.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 26 Feb 2020, 10:56 am

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
Saracens back-row forward Ben Earl, who won his first caps against Scotland and Ireland, has not been included, while Exeter prop Harry Williams has been preferred to Bath's Will Stuart.


Not sure we should read too much into either of those. Both players probably need game-time this weekend rather than a weekend in camp, while Lawes was left out the last weekend off. Mind with Wilson called up it probably does mean that Earl will miss out.


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Post by bluestonevedder on Wed 26 Feb 2020, 11:01 am

Shame. Earl has looked very good from the bench in both games. He's got a big future in the tema

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Post by lostinwales on Wed 26 Feb 2020, 11:36 am

Wilson to 8 would be a popular move.

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Post by The Oracle on Wed 26 Feb 2020, 11:44 am

My local club played an annual memorial match recently for a player who passed away a couple of years ago. They had enough players for two teams made up of the first and seconds so they allocated teams from a hat. The ticket would have a colour and number of it - and that would determine the side you played on (jersey colour) and position! So by the luck of the draw you had wings playing prop, a centre at second row, prop at scrum half, lock at FB, etc. All good fun. Can we suggest something similar for the England v Wales game?! Eddie Jones has been accused of doing something similar in his selections so far, and I've seen calls for Biggar to 12, Tompkins to wing, Hill to 6, North to centre, even 1/2p to 10, etc. for Wales! Might add some light relief to a dismal campaign so far (for Wales).
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Post by lostinwales on Wed 26 Feb 2020, 11:50 am

The Oracle wrote:My local club played an annual memorial match recently for a player who passed away a couple of years ago.  They had enough players for two teams made up of the first and seconds so they allocated teams from a hat.  The ticket would have a colour and number of it - and that would determine the side you played on (jersey colour) and position!  So by the luck of the draw you had wings playing prop, a centre at second row, prop at scrum half, lock at FB, etc.  All good fun.  Can we suggest something similar for the England v Wales game?!  Eddie Jones has been accused of doing something similar in his selections so far, and I've seen calls for Biggar to 12, Tompkins to wing, Hill to 6, North to centre, even 1/2p to 10, etc. for Wales!  Might add some light relief to a dismal campaign so far (for Wales).

When I was a teenager I played 2nd row. Once I was asked to fill in at prop. One of the few individual games I can remember from 35 years ago. Once was more than enough.

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Post by BamBam on Wed 26 Feb 2020, 11:53 am

The Oracle wrote:My local club played an annual memorial match recently for a player who passed away a couple of years ago.  They had enough players for two teams made up of the first and seconds so they allocated teams from a hat.  The ticket would have a colour and number of it - and that would determine the side you played on (jersey colour) and position!  So by the luck of the draw you had wings playing prop, a centre at second row, prop at scrum half, lock at FB, etc.  All good fun.  Can we suggest something similar for the England v Wales game?!  Eddie Jones has been accused of doing something similar in his selections so far, and I've seen calls for Biggar to 12, Tompkins to wing, Hill to 6, North to centre, even 1/2p to 10, etc. for Wales!  Might add some light relief to a dismal campaign so far (for Wales).

You've definitely been spying on Eddie's selection meetings

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Post by TightHEAD on Wed 26 Feb 2020, 3:19 pm

No way that this game is going ahead.

Time to off load those tickets! censored
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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 26 Feb 2020, 3:26 pm

TightHEAD wrote:No way that this game is going ahead.

I agree that the game in Rome will be postponed, the risk of spreading the virus is just too high.

If the match with Wales is called off, then we all have a much bigger issue than a sports match.

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Post by yappysnap on Thu 27 Feb 2020, 3:51 am

How can everyone eat their prawn sandwiches through face masks??! It'll have to be postponed.

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Post by king_carlos on Thu 27 Feb 2020, 4:48 pm

Interesting to note that Ben Spencer aside (Heinz was injured) Jones has selected the same backs he did for the World Cup final in his 25 man training squad for the Wales game.

For all our talk of new blood in the team it seems Jones isn't yet convinced by many of the youngsters pressing for squad places.

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Post by Recwatcher16 on Thu 27 Feb 2020, 6:02 pm

Nick Evans in the Guardian earlier this week.
"At the World Cup England were all about a good territorial game, a good aerial game, a good defensive unit, and a power attack off the back of a good set piece, and we saw a lot of that against Ireland."

Summed up the previous game pretty well, same again against Wales ?

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Post by No9 on Thu 27 Feb 2020, 6:41 pm

Pivac has not released Liam Williams for a run out for the Scarlets. To me this says he's not ready and they don't want to risk further injury. If that is the case, we have some serious injury concerns on the Wing. May mean Rees-Zammit will earn his first cap against England in Twickenham. This place would go wild if he scored the winning try... Just wish he'd been tested against Italy first.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 27 Feb 2020, 6:50 pm

It could also mean he'll be involved in 23 for the England game and they aren't risking him... I also think RZ can step up. He seems to have passed every other test so far.

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Post by Guest on Thu 27 Feb 2020, 7:44 pm

With Tompkins and Gareth Davies covering the wing Pivac might just select North, McNicholl, and Halfpenny and go with 2 halfbacks on the bench for the backs or maybe just Watkin.

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Post by No9 on Thu 27 Feb 2020, 9:46 pm

guestalt_physicality wrote:With Tompkins and Gareth Davies covering the wing Pivac might just select North, McNicholl, and Halfpenny and go with 2 halfbacks on the bench for the backs or maybe just Watkin.

North won’t feature again this 6 Nations, following his concussion last week. That was a bad hit and he was out cold. So without him and Josh, we don’t have back 3 cover, if Liam isn’t fit. We’ll need to bring in someone else, and not picking Rees-Zammet will be a kick in the teeth for him.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 27 Feb 2020, 10:25 pm

I think he might retire now. It’s been one too many blows to the head, his health and future is more important. A real shame too.

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Post by Cyril on Thu 27 Feb 2020, 10:40 pm

Agreed. Very good player who burst onto the scene so young (first tries against SA if I remember correctly) but far too many incidents where he’s been knocked out cold and had concussion. It’s getting a bit scary now how many times he’s out for the count. He’s either very unlucky or has a propensity for it.

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Post by Maddogflanker on Thu 27 Feb 2020, 10:47 pm

Very unlucky. Think he's been knocked out six times, he's a wonderful player but I'm sure we all want him to be able to enjoy his retirement

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 27 Feb 2020, 10:59 pm

It is scary given what repeated concussion has been linked to, and yes very unlucky. The last few blows didn’t look like much, I think it was more that he had too many in a short space of time by then. If this is it then I hope George finds a new lease of life that makes him happy.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 28 Feb 2020, 7:42 am

He did look spark out in the last game.

Bear in mind there was talk that he should have retired back at the end of 2016 when the protocols were toughened because of him it wouldnt come as a shock if he did. Massive shame if he has to, but better that the correct decision is reached to protect his long term health.

But we dont know the ins and outs of that. If hes had the right specialist advice and scans and it shows no signs of short or long term problems then he may well be able to play. I've seen nothing in the press the last few days to suggest he is likely to miss the game, it is quite possible to get ko'ed and it not have a significant effect whereas other contacts that at the time seemed insignificant can cause much more serious concussions and lasting damage. The hope is he has been given the best possible level of treatment and advice of specialists, and also that hes aware and honest about his own symptoms in those reviews. There has been speculation in the past that hes not always looked after himself and played on and through symptons when he shouldn't have, but that's impossible for us to know.

If he does play I just hope it's because he is actually OK in spite of what looked like a pretty significant blow and his history. Worst case is he plays when he shouldn't. Mid ground is he takes another long break ir retires.

Whatever the outcome it's a reminder to us all Irwland are a dirty and dangerous team for charging at the ruck habitually why the concucciosn protocoals and tackle and ruck laws keep getting tightened up, and the sacrifices modern players make. It's also very worrying for the generation before this who played without the same protections but a similar level of impacts. The games moved on from when it was a bunch of paper bangs wafting about in the backs and some fat blokes lying in top of each other in the forwards. The speed and weight of players is making conracts more and more forceful, and the kind of blows that Norths taken part and parcel of normal legal gameplay.

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Fri 28 Feb 2020, 7:51 am

2016 was the last time George had a ‘concussion incident’ so 4 years is a significant time, however, the history prior to that is pretty horrendous.
You have to trust the experts & hope he is healthy long term.

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 28 Feb 2020, 7:57 am

I remember reading with the Shontayne Hape stuff that late on pretty much any hard contact would leave him out cold. I am not saying North didn't get a significant blow to the head but I have to say that there wasn't much in the collision as seen on TV that would immediately cause concern.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 28 Feb 2020, 9:00 am

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:2016 was the last time George had a ‘concussion incident’ so 4 years is a significant time, however, the history prior to that is pretty horrendous.
You have to trust the experts & hope he is healthy long term.


3 years an 3 months but yeah, Id though there had been more incidents since tbh but maybe thats just because everytime he misses game they mention his concussion history regardless of what injury he has. 

Agree it should be in the experts hands, but it still takes honesty and acceptance from the player involved for them to give the correct advice. the two big furies in 15 and 16 involved the protocols letting him down and him not actively looking out for himself. Everyone should have learnt a lesson from that hopefully, and I guess the reaction to him by all of us and the media is exaggerated because of the press those two incidents got and him becoming the poster boy for concussion.

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Post by Comfort on Fri 28 Feb 2020, 9:22 am

I'd be gutted to see North play again for Wales this 6 nations, that didn't look like a devastating blow to the head but it knocked him clean out. There's a lot of research available on repeated blows to the head and he hasn't been anything approaching robust enough to handle the knocks he's been getting since '15.

Of course we will trust the experts opinions but I do worry for him especially....

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Post by TightHEAD on Fri 28 Feb 2020, 9:39 am

Very worrying for North, also his family, friends and rugby family as a whole.

But be warned Comfort this is not a topic up for debate on 606V2. Named players safety/welfare can not be mentioned Admin Powers


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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 28 Feb 2020, 9:48 am

Discussion about concussion is not prohibited. Read the warning that RDW gave. Spurious allegations against individuals are not allowed however.

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Post by TightHEAD on Fri 28 Feb 2020, 9:49 am

Here we go!
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Post by Comfort on Fri 28 Feb 2020, 9:49 am

Noted, in which case let me re-phrase....

I'd be gutted to see him play for Wales again this 6 nations as he's been rubbish Wink

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Post by TightHEAD on Fri 28 Feb 2020, 9:53 am

Who cares about Player safety/welfare anyway!

Back in my day we were told just to get up and man up.

Hows that, is that the attitude we should be displaying in this day and age?
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Post by TightHEAD on Fri 28 Feb 2020, 9:55 am

First case of Coronavirus in Wales now.

Surely the game will be called off?
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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 28 Feb 2020, 9:57 am

Comfort wrote:I'd be gutted to see North play again for Wales this 6 nations, that didn't look like a devastating blow to the head but it knocked him clean out. There's a lot of research available on repeated blows to the head and he hasn't been anything approaching robust enough to handle the knocks he's been getting since '15.

Of course we will trust the experts opinions but I do worry for him especially....

It is very worrying. Dr BOD (Barry) stated in December 2016 that if he were an amateur North would have to retire. We do not have access to the lad's medical records so we are not in a place to make decisions for him but we have to hope that our trust in the medical staff is not unfounded. It is clear that in the past poor decisions have been made in his care which perhaps leads people to assume that this continues.

Based purely on form it would make sense to give him a long rest - but if there is no medical evidence to support this it would be harder to mandate. We have to assume that though the pictures do not look great we are not talking about symptoms similar to those that led to the retirement of Dave Denton.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 28 Feb 2020, 10:01 am

TightHEAD wrote:First case of Coronavirus in Wales now.

Surely the game will be called off?

So far none of the cases of COVID-19 have been contracted within the UK. As soon as we see it start to spread here then all large gatherings will be at risk - be it sport, schools, weddings etc.

For now the Government will not start calling off anything.

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Post by Comfort on Fri 28 Feb 2020, 10:04 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Comfort wrote:I'd be gutted to see North play again for Wales this 6 nations, that didn't look like a devastating blow to the head but it knocked him clean out. There's a lot of research available on repeated blows to the head and he hasn't been anything approaching robust enough to handle the knocks he's been getting since '15.

Of course we will trust the experts opinions but I do worry for him especially....

It is very worrying. Dr BOD (Barry) stated in December 2016 that if he were an amateur North would have to retire. We do not have access to the lad's medical records so we are not in a place to make decisions for him but we have to hope that our trust in the medical staff is not unfounded. It is clear that in the past poor decisions have been made in his care which perhaps leads people to assume that this continues.

Based purely on form it would make sense to give him a long rest - but if there is no medical evidence to support this it would be harder to mandate. We have to assume that though the pictures do not look great we are not talking about symptoms similar to those that led to the retirement of Dave Denton.


Absolutely, I'm no medical expert so will always trust in what the actual experts tell us, but going by what we've seen its certainly not the bulldozing George North of previous years and I worry for someone who started the game at the top level so young. In comparison Jamie Roberts made his career smashing into people and being fine, and he actually is a medical expert....

Think its best for Team Wales and North himself (even if just for a break and his confidence) for Wales to look at other options for the rest of the tournament, just in my humble opinion of course! We know what he can do, time to introduce North Mk2 in ZLR and see what he can bring.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 28 Feb 2020, 10:40 am

LondonTiger wrote:

For now the Government will not start calling off anything.

Aside from the building of those 40 new hospitals Whistle

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 28 Feb 2020, 10:54 am

Some people are more susceptible to concussion than others. One factor is how much freedom there is for your brain to move in your skull

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Post by BamBam on Fri 28 Feb 2020, 10:59 am

People with smaller brains must have more chance of concussion then

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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 28 Feb 2020, 11:05 am

Thick skulls do tend to mean you have more ability to absorb blows to the head, a strong neck and trunk help as well, your gym bunnies like a George North don't tend to have those things whereas a naturally big guy like a Martin Johnson will.

Scrum caps are an interesting one as well, headguards have been dispensed with in amateur boxing because studies actually showed that their use increased concussions by a significant percentage. I wonder if the same is true in Rugby so looking at someone like Leigh Halfpenny.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 28 Feb 2020, 11:13 am

BamBam wrote:People with smaller brains must have more chance of concussion then

I removed your second comment as it really would not help the discussion move along, nor make mod life any easier.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 28 Feb 2020, 11:14 am

Gah, that was meant to be red not lilac

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