The Covid-19 serious chat thread

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Post by RDW on Mon 23 Mar 2020, 8:50 am

First topic message reminder :

A thread set up to house the more serious chat relating to the global pandemic.

Nothing has changed in what we expect from discussions on here though:

- Please treat each other with respect
- Avoid hyperbole and fake news
- This thread shouldn't be used for a political soapbox, but political discussion will likely happen. See point 1!

A reminder that we have a community thread here for people to vent, look for help and all round support each other. https://www.606v2.com/t69506-the-covid-19-community-thread#3896653

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Post by 123456789. on Fri 22 May 2020, 6:22 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:You guys are openly aware that a daily breakdown of the testing has been available and provided the whole time stating how many people have actually been tested so do drop the holier than thou act.

Are you paid for your communications work? More importantly, do you believe that double counting individuals and counting uncompleted tests is anything other than a smoke and mirrors propaganda exercise? I am aware other sides do it too. I'm merely asking with reference to this specific incidence.

"Holier than thou" is a strange phrase and displays how tribal you are. It's not like 'we' are all lying in this incident. It's not you and us. It's the government and the people more broadly. It's not as if we are running a different testing rackets and producing bogus statistics.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 22 May 2020, 7:06 pm

Tribal because I disagree with what you say? Do you ever read back what you right because you'd realise how ridiculous you come across, as if you have some higher knowledge of the situation whilst posting on a sports forum.

You might not bother reading the breakdown of the daily testing which states how many people are tested each day, now that doesn't come across as a lie to me. Then it again it suits your agenda to suggest otherwise.

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Post by 123456789. on Fri 22 May 2020, 7:42 pm

Tribal because somehow you defend everything the government does in all of this. Either you genuinely believe every step the government has taken has been the right one and we just happen to have the highest death toll in Europe and near the highest death rate despite being considered the most prepared for a pandemic in the continent OR you feel duty bound to defend Boris Johnson as if you were on the inside.

The government has done some things right and some things wrong. I happen to think they’ve done more a huge amount more wrong than right. You seem to think they’ve got everything spot on or at least have declined to suggest anything that they could have done better. If that’s not tribal then I don’t know what is.

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 23 May 2020, 1:50 am

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52779356

Cummings might be going, after a load of strife about his comings and goings.

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Post by Pr4wn on Sat 23 May 2020, 3:19 am

Duty281 wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52779356

Cummings might be going, after a load of strife about his comings and goings.
drumroll

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sat 23 May 2020, 9:24 am

So now Cummings has been caught being a naughty boy and travelling up to Durham to see his parents whilst showing symptoms of Covid-19.

Of course he has done nothing wrong, he stayed in a separate house, but the police had to have words with his parents and he travelled a round trip of circa 600 miles whilst all but travel was prohibited.

All politicians and their entourages know that they do not just have to obey the letter of the rules but be squeaky clean in doing so. This one is going to test Johnson, everybody knows, that Cummings, like all the others caught doing similar things has to go. However is Johnson prepared to lose his mentor and chief strategist? If he doesn't go, and Johnson doesn't sack him, then Johnson is always going to be accused of being Cummings puppet.

I cannot see his back benchers giving him a lot of support on this issue, many who have a dislike for Johnson will be sharpening their knives in preparation.


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Post by guildfordbat on Sat 23 May 2020, 9:58 am

Shameful though it all is, what might save Cummings is that Johnson and other senior members of the Cabinet almost certainly knew what Cummings had done at the time. During this crisis, is it conceivable that the Government won't know where its chief adviser is?

However, if Cummings is sacked now, there must be a real fear in Government that Cummings will try and take others down with him.

I therefore expect Johnson and his allies to try and pooh-pooh these revelations. Hopefully Starmer, other politicians and the media will not allow that to happen.

An extra snippet I picked up on yesterday's Newsnight was that Cummings' partner/wife wrote an article for The Spectator about the difficulties they had encountered in self-isolating. It was very interesting that the article made no reference to them having travelled 250 miles to do so. If that doesn't tell you she knew what they were doing was at best highly questionable, then I'm not a cricket fan!

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Post by Pr4wn on Sat 23 May 2020, 10:54 am

With all the comments made about Neil Ferguson and Catherine Calderwood by cabinet ministers, it would be hypocrisy of the highest order if Cummings didn't resign, surely?

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Post by Samo on Sat 23 May 2020, 11:29 am

Pr4wn wrote:With all the comments made about Neil Ferguson and Catherine Calderwood by cabinet ministers, it would be hypocrisy of the highest order if Cummings didn't resign, surely?

Of course it would be, but this government is built on hypocrisy.

Its a real test for Johnson. Cummings should go and Johnson needs to do it. He’ll look like even more of a shambles if he doesnt.

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Post by jimbopip on Sat 23 May 2020, 1:50 pm


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52770313

It doesn't get any better does it?

I see Downing St is saying Cummings acted "responsibly" and that his journey was "reasonable". Which is pretty much the opposite of what the Durham police are saying.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sat 23 May 2020, 2:01 pm

So, Cummings says it was perfectly alright after his wife and he had Corona virus  symptoms to take their probably infected daughter 260 miles so that she could be looked after, if he and his wife became incapacitated with the virus by his sister. How can his sister look after her without coming into contact with a potentially/likely infected person who would then take it back and possibly infect the whole of the family.

Durham police are liars, as they say they spoke to both the owner of the house, Cummings and his family. Cummings says they didn't. I know who I believe. So they have risked the owner of the hose as well.

The rules laid down by his boss are very clear, if you believe that you have got the virus or even potential symptoms or any member of your household has, you self isolate immediately in your home. Not, go on a 500 mile plus journey where I can infect the rest of my family as well.

Are they going to give back the fines they have imposed on a few thousand others for behaving irresponsibly as Cummings has done a lot worse in that he has encouraged others to do such stupid things.

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Post by jimbopip on Sat 23 May 2020, 3:00 pm

Well Mr Past It that is most unlike you...I got passive-anger just reading it.

The guidelines in place at the time were extremely clear: don't leave your house unless to collect necessary supplies like food or medicine, don't go to another persons house, do no initiate contact with people who may become infected as a result.

A five hundred mile round trip when you should be self isolating is inexcusable.

If the Adulterer In chief doesn't sack him then Parliament should force both of them to resign.

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Post by 123456789. on Sat 23 May 2020, 4:49 pm

Cummings won't go. They'll front it out. He's crucial to the govt. machine, there's only so long a scandal can last so I expect they won't do anything about it, and just wait for it all to go away. No one talks about the prorogation anymore. I am not sure Parliament can force out an adviser. There was a far less favourable Parliament in place when the prorogation issue came up. They didn't force out Cummings then. I can't see enough Tory MPs breaking cover to do it now. Equally even in cabinet members wanted to come out against him, Johnson already made clear with the Javid incident that Cummings is above politicians in these matters.


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Post by guildfordbat on Sat 23 May 2020, 5:15 pm

123456789. wrote:Cummings won't go. They'll front it out. He's crucial to the govt. machine, there's only so long a scandal can last so I expect they won't do anything about it, and just wait for it all to go away. No one talks about the prorogation anymore. I am not sure Parliament can force out an adviser. There was a far less favourable Parliament in place when the prorogation issue came up. They didn't force out Cummings then. I can't see enough Tory MPs breaking cover to do it now.  Equally even in cabinet members wanted to come out against him, Johnson already made clear with the Javid incident that Cummings is above politicians in these matters.


Hi Numbers - you may be right and I was suggesting this morning that might be the case.

One distinction though with the prorogation is that a majority of Tory supporters probably supported it as it appeared a way of achieving their aim of Brexit. Tory support on the ground will be rapidly diminishing if clear anger at the blatant hypocrisy of the Cummings situation is added to the distress of loved ones dying, particularly in care homes, and family separations. If Johnson ignores that - yes, he'll probably get away with it now but it may well come back to bite him hard and so it should.

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Post by 123456789. on Sat 23 May 2020, 5:30 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
123456789. wrote:Cummings won't go. They'll front it out. He's crucial to the govt. machine, there's only so long a scandal can last so I expect they won't do anything about it, and just wait for it all to go away. No one talks about the prorogation anymore. I am not sure Parliament can force out an adviser. There was a far less favourable Parliament in place when the prorogation issue came up. They didn't force out Cummings then. I can't see enough Tory MPs breaking cover to do it now.  Equally even in cabinet members wanted to come out against him, Johnson already made clear with the Javid incident that Cummings is above politicians in these matters.


Hi Numbers - you may be right and I was suggesting this morning that might be the case.

One distinction though with the prorogation is that a majority of Tory supporters probably supported it as it appeared a way of achieving their aim of Brexit. Tory support on the ground will be rapidly diminishing if clear anger at the blatant hypocrisy of the Cummings situation is added to the distress of loved ones dying, particularly in care homes, and family separations. If Johnson ignores that - yes, he'll probably get away with it now but it may well come back to bite him hard and so it should.

Yeah that's true.

The frustrating thing for me is that ultimately all of these decision were taken because the problem is not one person doing it, but rather everyone. If it was just me travelling to see my Grandparents or going to the beach for the day then there would be no problem, little to no risk of spreading the disease. In a society in which we are all supposedly equal before the law it's a punch in the nose for him to decide it doesn't apply to him.

I do sympathise with him to an extent. His wife was ill with a potentially fatal illness, and it is a difficult time. He wouldn't be human if he wasn't looking to help his son and his family. But deciding not to follow the guidance the government in which he serves (leads) is absurd.

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Post by guildfordbat on Sat 23 May 2020, 5:40 pm

Btw, there was a neat dig at Dr Jenny Harries on Sky News from their guy (didn't catch his name) who was at today's press conference. He referred to her view of the guidance and repeated references to ''common sense'' seeming to have ''evolved'' since earlier briefings.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sat 23 May 2020, 5:47 pm

Shapps has now reset the guidelines, apparently putting ones extended family at risk, the thought that your 4 year old daughter that has probably contracted the virus and never new it / doesn't know it might need looking after by someone other than her mother and or presumably him is good enough a reason to break the law.

Passive anger, I am blazing. All my family is in County Durham and Cummings through his idiocy has effectively put them at risk.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sat 23 May 2020, 5:49 pm

I mean, by the way that if people think it is okay for him, it okay for them and the amount of new cases in the area will spike.

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Post by Samo on Sat 23 May 2020, 5:49 pm

123456789. wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
123456789. wrote:Cummings won't go. They'll front it out. He's crucial to the govt. machine, there's only so long a scandal can last so I expect they won't do anything about it, and just wait for it all to go away. No one talks about the prorogation anymore. I am not sure Parliament can force out an adviser. There was a far less favourable Parliament in place when the prorogation issue came up. They didn't force out Cummings then. I can't see enough Tory MPs breaking cover to do it now.  Equally even in cabinet members wanted to come out against him, Johnson already made clear with the Javid incident that Cummings is above politicians in these matters.


Hi Numbers - you may be right and I was suggesting this morning that might be the case.

One distinction though with the prorogation is that a majority of Tory supporters probably supported it as it appeared a way of achieving their aim of Brexit. Tory support on the ground will be rapidly diminishing if clear anger at the blatant hypocrisy of the Cummings situation is added to the distress of loved ones dying, particularly in care homes, and family separations. If Johnson ignores that - yes, he'll probably get away with it now but it may well come back to bite him hard and so it should.

Yeah that's true.

The frustrating thing for me is that ultimately all of these decision were taken because the problem is not one person doing it, but rather everyone. If it was just me travelling to see my Grandparents or going to the beach for the day then there would be no problem, little to no risk of spreading the disease. In a society in which we are all supposedly equal before the law it's a punch in the nose for him to decide it doesn't apply to him.

I do sympathise with him to an extent. His wife was ill with a potentially fatal illness, and it is a difficult time. He wouldn't be human if he wasn't looking to help his son and his family. But deciding not to follow the guidance the government in which he serves (leads) is absurd.

They have family and safe spaces within a few miles of their home. A 500 mile round trip is inexcusable and Im infuriated at seeing MP’s and cabinet members tweeting out messages of support, meanwhile people have lost family members and not been allowed to say goodbye. Johnson and Co are sending a dangerous message, and are proving that its one rule for them and one for the rest of us.

I need to take a break, I havent been this angry at the government in a long time. Its a Frak disgrace.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sat 23 May 2020, 5:50 pm

Samo wrote:
123456789. wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
123456789. wrote:Cummings won't go. They'll front it out. He's crucial to the govt. machine, there's only so long a scandal can last so I expect they won't do anything about it, and just wait for it all to go away. No one talks about the prorogation anymore. I am not sure Parliament can force out an adviser. There was a far less favourable Parliament in place when the prorogation issue came up. They didn't force out Cummings then. I can't see enough Tory MPs breaking cover to do it now.  Equally even in cabinet members wanted to come out against him, Johnson already made clear with the Javid incident that Cummings is above politicians in these matters.


Hi Numbers - you may be right and I was suggesting this morning that might be the case.

One distinction though with the prorogation is that a majority of Tory supporters probably supported it as it appeared a way of achieving their aim of Brexit. Tory support on the ground will be rapidly diminishing if clear anger at the blatant hypocrisy of the Cummings situation is added to the distress of loved ones dying, particularly in care homes, and family separations. If Johnson ignores that - yes, he'll probably get away with it now but it may well come back to bite him hard and so it should.

Yeah that's true.

The frustrating thing for me is that ultimately all of these decision were taken because the problem is not one person doing it, but rather everyone. If it was just me travelling to see my Grandparents or going to the beach for the day then there would be no problem, little to no risk of spreading the disease. In a society in which we are all supposedly equal before the law it's a punch in the nose for him to decide it doesn't apply to him.

I do sympathise with him to an extent. His wife was ill with a potentially fatal illness, and it is a difficult time. He wouldn't be human if he wasn't looking to help his son and his family. But deciding not to follow the guidance the government in which he serves (leads) is absurd.

They have family and safe spaces within a few miles of their home. A 500 mile round trip is inexcusable and Im infuriated at seeing MP’s and cabinet members tweeting out messages of support, meanwhile people have lost family members and not been allowed to say goodbye.  Johnson and Co are sending a dangerous message, and are proving that its one rule for them and one for the rest of us.

I need to take a break, I havent been this angry at the government in a long time. Its a Frak disgrace.

OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK

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Post by jimbopip on Sat 23 May 2020, 6:26 pm

Grant Shap wins this week's Orwellian Doublespeak Reversable Facemask for his answer to the question,
"Did the PM know about this?"

"The important thing is that he (Cummings) followed the self isolation guidelines and stayed in one location. Which he did."

So firstly, don't answer the question and secondly confidently state that black is indeed white.

And before Soul Requiem comes on to defend Cummings for looking after his daughter; he's the PM's closest adviser he would have had no shortage of people to assist him. Special Branch Protection Officers to drive her to her grandparents, for instance.

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 23 May 2020, 7:02 pm

123456789. wrote:Cummings won't go. They'll front it out.

Yes, this seems to be the case as the main cabinet ministers and backbench Tory MPs have been commanded, by the higher ups, to defend Cummings to the last ditch. They appear to have dutifully obeyed judging by the stream of Twitter messages they've all sent out.

Will be interesting to see the knock-on effect as this could undermine the current lockdown even further.

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Post by GSC on Sat 23 May 2020, 7:05 pm

A bunch of over promoted middle managers clinging desperately to the titanic is all I see of those tweets.
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Post by GSC on Sat 23 May 2020, 7:39 pm

Labour should just pin the health secretary defending this in front of everyone's eyes for every day until the next GE.

What a complete joke.
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Post by JDizzle on Sat 23 May 2020, 7:50 pm

Mirror and Observer now reporting Cummings was back in Durham in the middle of April, after being back at Downing Street for several days. After high ranking ministers have spent the day defending him too. Bahahaha.

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Post by GSC on Sat 23 May 2020, 7:56 pm

#10 may be determined to cling on to him (because they all know they're ****ed without him) but this is going to become untenable fast.

How can anyone be expected to take the lockdown rules seriously when a senior government aide doesnt and most of the cabinet defends him doing it.

Meanwhile Boris continues to hide and pray this all blows over.
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Post by 123456789. on Sat 23 May 2020, 8:12 pm

I do wonder if they'll find a cosy solution, whereby Cummings steps down for the government and remains outwith the government for some time before re-entering at a later date, when there's noise about something else.

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Post by GSC on Sat 23 May 2020, 8:17 pm

JDizzle wrote:Mirror and Observer now reporting Cummings was back in Durham in the middle of April, after being back at Downing Street for several days. After high ranking ministers have spent the day defending him too. Bahahaha.
They laid the trap and let most of the cabinet destroy their credibility and dignity without doing much  Laugh
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Post by guildfordbat on Sat 23 May 2020, 8:46 pm

GSC wrote:
JDizzle wrote:Mirror and Observer now reporting Cummings was back in Durham in the middle of April, after being back at Downing Street for several days. After high ranking ministers have spent the day defending him too. Bahahaha.
They laid the trap and let most of the cabinet destroy their credibility and dignity without doing much  Laugh

Life just seems a little bit better.

Wonder who'll be wheeled out tomorrow to try and talk this latest revelation away. Liked Piers Morgan's tweet that it was appropriate Johnson threw his Transport Secretary under the bus today. Smile


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Post by GSC on Sat 23 May 2020, 9:27 pm

The transport secretary is going on sky again tomorrow morning  Laugh
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Post by JDizzle on Sat 23 May 2020, 11:52 pm

How little self esteem do you have to have to carry on defending Cummings publicly now when he’s made you look like a total knob. Shapps is doing the tour of everyone tomorrow, you almost feel sorry him but it is Grant Shapps.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sun 24 May 2020, 10:18 am

The question now is; What does PM stand for and who holds what post?
Puppet Master - Cummings
Puppet Minister - Johnson

We could also have some new posts, Puppet of Transport, Home Puppet, Foreign Puppet, Health Puppet, Puppet dogsbody.

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 24 May 2020, 11:09 am

On whether Dominic Cummings should or should not resign from his job as advisor to the Prime Minister:

Should resign: 52%
Should not resign: 28%

via @YouGov, 23 May


And that was before the fresh allegations this morning.

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Post by GSC on Sun 24 May 2020, 11:10 am

When even Steve Baker is calling for his head, Boris might actually have to consider doing his job.

Shapps woefully out of his depth, this is like sending the work experience kid to front up
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Post by Duty281 on Sun 24 May 2020, 11:21 am

GSC wrote:When even Steve Baker is calling for his head, Boris might actually have to consider doing his job.

Shapps woefully out of his depth, this is like sending the work experience kid to front up

Fair play and much respect to the 8 Tory MPs, including Baker and Bone, who have broken ranks and demanded Cummings resignation.

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Post by GSC on Sun 24 May 2020, 11:38 am

When the MPs that did parrot the party line were sold up the river within hours I doubt theres much appetite left to defend him
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Post by 123456789. on Sun 24 May 2020, 12:35 pm

If 52% say he should go then that is the unswerving, unchangeable will of the people.

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Post by jimbopip on Sun 24 May 2020, 1:35 pm

I'm sure that there are some of us actively wallowing in schadenfreude. Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo

Let me add to it.

I said to MrsPip when the story first broke that I had the feeling that someone in the Durham constabulary was feeding information to the press.

Today, about an hour ago, on the BBC news site the previous head honcho Chief Constable at Durham (retired last June) was quoted giving as blistering an attack on Cummings' behaviour as you will ever see anywhere. He also slated the government for lack of leadership and looking after their own in this matter. It really was quite something. I was looking for his remarks to quote them here but they seem to have disappeared. Why would he feel the need to get involved? What does he know that we don't?

This got me to thinking chin The Durham constabulary contacted the owner of the residence they were staying at (Cummings' father) and had a conversation. Now was this a polite and respectful conversation on both sides? Or, is it just possible that Cummings spoke to the officers involved in the manner which he apparently speaks to "underlings" at Downing Street and Westminister? It should be understood that underlings here means anyone below the rank of Prime Minister.

Wouldn't that just be poetic justice?

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Post by jimbopip on Sun 24 May 2020, 1:45 pm

Found it.

The former chief constable of Durham Police says the government's defence of advisor Dominic Cummings has "driven a coach and horses" through their coronavirus lockdown policies - "all to save one of their own".
Mr Cummings drove 260 miles (420km) with his family to be near relatives when his wife developed Covid-19 symptoms in late-March.
Mike Barton, who led the North East force until his retirement in June, accused Transport Secretary Grant Shapps of using "weasel words" at Saturday's coronavirus briefing in which he said Mr Cummings had done nothing wrong.
He told BBC Radio Newcastle: "Just when we should have a government and people in it leading by example, we've actually got them somehow operating in a bubble of selfish privilege and denial. It frankly beggars belief.
"This is not a risk to life [situation]. This is just convenience for a privileged family. His attitude and behaviour shames our government and the country."


I can't help feeling that if this man replaced Boris The Liar tomorrow things wouldn't get any worse. Well not for the general public: one or two in Westminster might not enjoy things too much.

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Post by guildfordbat on Sun 24 May 2020, 1:50 pm

Thanks for that, Jimbo. I can't attach from here but it's now also covered in the Guardian's online article.

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Post by 123456789. on Sun 24 May 2020, 1:59 pm

In the grand scheme of things, the bigger story is surely that we have now overtaken Italy in terms of death per capita.

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Post by jimbopip on Sun 24 May 2020, 2:22 pm

123456789. wrote:In the grand scheme of things, the bigger story is surely that we have now overtaken Italy in terms of death per capita.

A sobering thought, Numbers. Sadly, I think we're in for a second wave and one of the reasons this weekend is so relevant is that the nation needs to trust it's leaders in times of crisis.

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Post by GSC on Sun 24 May 2020, 2:22 pm

https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1264532041380638725?s=19

This is very well done.
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Post by guildfordbat on Sun 24 May 2020, 2:54 pm

GSC wrote:https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1264532041380638725?s=19

This is very well done.

Very much so.

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Post by guildfordbat on Sun 24 May 2020, 2:57 pm

123456789. wrote:In the grand scheme of things, the bigger story is surely that we have now overtaken Italy in terms of death per capita.

Yes, although to my mind the two stories are not unconnected. An absence of doing the right thing and an over reliance on spin.

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Post by GSC on Sun 24 May 2020, 4:20 pm

Boris going to front up today's briefing
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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sun 24 May 2020, 5:13 pm

So, now we know who is the puppet and who is the master. Bring back Spitting Image they would have a field day.

When someone comes up with photos or Cummings at the beauty spot and on the second visit, or Durham police leak pictures of his car in the Durham area on the second occasion, will Johnson stand down as his judgement is as we have known for a long time severely impaired.

Has Cummings got some dodgy photos of Boris with a rent boy or something?

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Post by GSC on Sun 24 May 2020, 5:22 pm

It's just pathetic really. They're all prepared to take a metaphorical bullet for an unelected advisor, over serving the people of this Britain in the job they were elected to do.
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Post by GSC on Sun 24 May 2020, 5:23 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:So, now we know who is the puppet and who is the master. Bring back Spitting Image they would have a field day.

When someone comes up with photos or Cummings at the beauty spot and on the second visit, or Durham police leak pictures of his car in the Durham area on the second occasion, will Johnson stand down as his judgement is as we have known for a long time severely impaired.

Has Cummings got some dodgy photos of Boris with a rent boy or something?
I'm holding out hope they've been saved for when Boris doubles down. Instant karma
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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sun 24 May 2020, 5:31 pm

Did anyone see Robert Preston's face after his question was answered by BoJo. He is setting himself up to have the whole press on nis back for ever and a day.

Interesting that they are having troubles with the connections on the day he has to answer awkward questions.

Will someone ask him if he will resign if Cummings is proved to be a double offender.






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