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Silly Season Transfer Rumours 19/20

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 05 May 2020, 6:07 pm

First topic message reminder :

mikey_dragon wrote:It’s an unfortunate coincidence I think, but his injury record was exemplary before he linked up with Bath.

His last lengthy injury was a collarbone issue suffered in a Wales training camp. Probably a bit of a mixed bag. It's hard once you start getting injuries to get out of the cycle as often one leads to another, Falatau managed to break the same arm some four or five months apart. Something Billy Vunipola managed as well.

I think Carlos is right. With the financial squeeze clubs are going to look for more value for money and less marquee names. Johnny May certainly found that when he went to discuss his new contract as did Ben Youngs.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 27 May 2020, 7:03 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:Mostert is going to Japan and Dreyer is rumoured to be going that way as well. Ackerman Jnr has one more year on his contract I think.

Dreyer was linked with Johannesburg Lions I think.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 28 May 2020, 9:38 am

Welly wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Well we are clearly trying to reduce costs LT

Matavesi - Gone
Replaced by Lucock?

Takulua - Gone
Repalced by Homer?

Logo - Gone
Not replaced yet

Williams to Scarlets doing the rounds...

And now Flood to Ospreys??

I'm not so sure GF. We've got rid of a few under-performing/expensive players in Logo/Matavesi and I can't see Flood leaving seen as he's just signed a new deal.

I presume we're just not announcing signings till there's a little more clarity as what is exactly happening next season. I could see ring fencing becoming a real viable option very soon...

Your whole staff is on furlough isn't it? So legally you couldn't announce something even if you wanted too right?
Hence why no social media updates in over a month.

I have a feeling theres one or two still working, but even the Communications officer etc etc are all furoughed.

So we'll not be gettign much info.

The talk before that was that we'd only signed one or two anyway.

Maybe they know ring fencing is comig in and are focusing more on the kids they have in place.

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Post by Maddogflanker on Thu 28 May 2020, 9:55 am

Rugbypass reporting that Isiekwe has agreed a one year loan deal to saints!

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 28 May 2020, 10:09 am

Maddogflanker wrote:Rugbypass reporting that Isiekwe has agreed a one year loan deal to saints!

Aye. It seems he has signed a new long term deal with Sarries, but starting with a season at Saints.

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Post by Cumbrian on Thu 28 May 2020, 10:16 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:So whats Saracens locks looking like?

Itoje
Isiekwe
Joel Kpoku
Jon Kpoku


Just announced that Isiekwe is going on loan at Northampton for a year, which is probably a good solution for everyone involved.

On Zinzan's son mentioned earlier, what a coup it would be for England if he turns out to be as good as his dad!  Obviously a big 'if'.

Although it looks like he well may settle at hooker rather than no.8, which is down to a decent show of prescience on Zinzan's part:


“The official date for Lucas to start at Irish was mid-July but it may not be until August because of the current situation and he is chomping at the bit. Lucas plays back row and also hooker because I said to him when I was coaching him at Windsor RFC from the age of five to when he went to Wellington, to have this up your sleeve because I don’t know how tall and big you are going to be. I told him not to wipe out the idea of hooker and he was like “ hooker?” and I said that he should look at the modern day hooker as another loose forward with all the skills. He has nice passing so he just needed to work on throwing the ball into the line out so he hooks as well.”

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/lucas-brooke-son-of-zinzan-is-qualified-for-england/


May be all to the good, because England aren't exactly flush with standout players in this position, after George and Cowan-Dickie, especially when you consider that George will be 30 later this year.
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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 28 May 2020, 11:03 am

Pat Lam to succeed Pivac as Wales coach in 2 years time.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 28 May 2020, 11:21 am

Cumbrian wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:So whats Saracens locks looking like?

Itoje
Isiekwe
Joel Kpoku
Jon Kpoku


Just announced that Isiekwe is going on loan at Northampton for a year, which is probably a good solution for everyone involved.

On Zinzan's son mentioned earlier, what a coup it would be for England if he turns out to be as good as his dad!  Obviously a big 'if'.

Although it looks like he well may settle at hooker rather than no.8, which is down to a decent show of prescience on Zinzan's part:


“The official date for Lucas to start at Irish was mid-July but it may not be until August because of the current situation and he is chomping at the bit. Lucas plays back row and also hooker because I said to him when I was coaching him at Windsor RFC from the age of five to when he went to Wellington, to have this up your sleeve because I don’t know how tall and big you are going to be. I told him not to wipe out the idea of hooker and he was like “ hooker?” and I said that he should look at the modern day hooker as another loose forward with all the skills. He has nice passing so he just needed to work on throwing the ball into the line out so he hooks as well.”

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/lucas-brooke-son-of-zinzan-is-qualified-for-england/


May be all to the good, because England aren't exactly flush with standout players in this position, after George and Cowan-Dickie, especially when you consider that George will be 30 later this year.

Is Harry Thacker out the picture now? He's absolutely class.
What happened to Tommy Taylor? Too small?

We've got a young hooker Jamie Blamire who looks to have all the attributes...He played alot last season in the Champs and looked the part. Big step up to the prem though, so it'll be interesting to see how he goes this season. But could be one to watch.


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Post by NeilyBroon on Thu 28 May 2020, 11:22 am

mikey_dragon wrote:Pat Lam to succeed Pivac as Wales coach in 2 years time.

Does seem to be a case of 'when' not 'if' Pat Lam will coach a top international side.

That being said unless Pivac really balls it up it's hard to see him being replaced mid-world cup cycle.
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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 28 May 2020, 11:23 am

Isiekwe and Lawes at Saints.

Now thats a good combo...add in Ribban...and they are in a good place with their locks.

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Post by king_carlos on Thu 28 May 2020, 11:26 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Isiekwe and Lawes at Saints.

Now thats a good combo...add in Ribban...and they are in a good place with their locks.
Moon as well. 4-8 of the Saints pack will be very strong next season.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Thu 28 May 2020, 12:36 pm

king_carlos wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Isiekwe and Lawes at Saints.

Now thats a good combo...add in Ribban...and they are in a good place with their locks.
Moon as well. 4-8 of the Saints pack will be very strong next season.


Have they got another 8 in? Harrison is pretty good but behind him aren't they short on options with Eadie going back to Bristol.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Thu 28 May 2020, 2:26 pm

They do not have a "specialist" 8 in the squad, Harrison is a converted 7 and very lightweight which although he is a massive handful ball in hand the pack suffers in the set piece. I would have offered Picamoles the earth to stay, he brought a completely different dimension to their game. It is noticeable that they have not been quite the same side since he went back to France.

With Ludlam, Wood and Gibson competing for the three places in the match day 15, one of the younger tyros will come into consideration come international call ups or injuries, possibly Tui Uri.

Alternatively as wee are so blessed with locks and a number of them can play back row, the summer would have been well spent upgrading one of them to cover 8, possibly Coles as he is a bit lightweight for lock these days.


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Post by king_carlos on Thu 28 May 2020, 2:29 pm

I was presuming that Isiekwe will be Eadie's replacement and significant upgrade. Lawes/Isiekwe playing a lot at 6, Gibson/Ludlam at 7 and Harrison/Wood at 8.

That still leaves Ribbans, Moon and Ratuniyarawa in the row. Smaller squad numbers but high quality players seems to be Boyd's plan.

JJ Tonks was getting a bit of game time this season from the academy as well.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 28 May 2020, 5:21 pm

NeilyBroon wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Pat Lam to succeed Pivac as Wales coach in 2 years time.

Does seem to be a case of 'when' not 'if' Pat Lam will coach a top international side.

That being said unless Pivac really balls it up it's hard to see him being replaced mid-world cup cycle.

It’s happened before mid-world cup cycle, it can happen again. Pivac is a good coach and Wales probably have the most depth they’ve ever had. Pivac’s downfall is keeping on Hayward as defence coach, I don’t envision Pivac showing him the door which lets face it really needs to happen. If not then the Wales head coach being replaced is possible. 

Lam definitely has one eye on the role.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Thu 28 May 2020, 5:33 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
NeilyBroon wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Pat Lam to succeed Pivac as Wales coach in 2 years time.

Does seem to be a case of 'when' not 'if' Pat Lam will coach a top international side.

That being said unless Pivac really balls it up it's hard to see him being replaced mid-world cup cycle.

It’s happened before mid-world cup cycle, it can happen again. Pivac is a good coach and Wales probably have the most depth they’ve ever had. Pivac’s downfall is keeping on Hayward as defence coach, I don’t envision Pivac showing him the door which lets face it really needs to happen. If not then the Wales head coach being replaced is possible. 

Lam definitely has one eye on the role.


What makes you think Lam is eying up the role? He's on what is rumoured to be a pretty weighty contact at Bristol who are very ambitious as a club. The role that might come available before the Welsh one would probably be the better fit given his previous job.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 28 May 2020, 6:11 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/52830727

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Post by king_carlos on Thu 28 May 2020, 6:24 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:May be all to the good, because England aren't exactly flush with standout players in this position, after George and Cowan-Dickie, especially when you consider that George will be 30 later this year.

Is Harry Thacker out the picture now? He's absolutely class.
What happened to Tommy Taylor? Too small?

We've got a young hooker Jamie Blamire who looks to have all the attributes...He played alot last season in the Champs and looked the part. Big step up to the prem though, so it'll be interesting to see how he goes this season. But could be one to watch.
Taylor seems to have fallen out the picture due to injury. Thacker was also injured this season.

Alfie Barbeary at Wasps and Will Capon at Bristol have a lot of potential at hooker as well.

I think Singleton could still be an strong international. He had a tough return to Sarries but hardly the first player to have a poor season early in their career. Many fans wrote off LCD early on after some lineout struggles but in the RWC and 6 Nations he was on par with George.

I actually think there's some good talent at hooker but the quality of George and Cowan-Dickie accentuates the drop off afterwards.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Thu 28 May 2020, 6:51 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/52830727

You're right he's not even subtly about it.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 28 May 2020, 7:47 pm

The best part is when he tries to be subtle about it.

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Post by Margin_Walker on Thu 28 May 2020, 10:13 pm

Cumbrian wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:So whats Saracens locks looking like?

Itoje
Isiekwe
Joel Kpoku
Jon Kpoku


Just announced that Isiekwe is going on loan at Northampton for a year, which is probably a good solution for everyone involved.

On Zinzan's son mentioned earlier, what a coup it would be for England if he turns out to be as good as his dad!  Obviously a big 'if'.

Although it looks like he well may settle at hooker rather than no.8, which is down to a decent show of prescience on Zinzan's part:


“The official date for Lucas to start at Irish was mid-July but it may not be until August because of the current situation and he is chomping at the bit. Lucas plays back row and also hooker because I said to him when I was coaching him at Windsor RFC from the age of five to when he went to Wellington, to have this up your sleeve because I don’t know how tall and big you are going to be. I told him not to wipe out the idea of hooker and he was like “ hooker?” and I said that he should look at the modern day hooker as another loose forward with all the skills. He has nice passing so he just needed to work on throwing the ball into the line out so he hooks as well.”

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/lucas-brooke-son-of-zinzan-is-qualified-for-england/


May be all to the good, because England aren't exactly flush with standout players in this position, after George and Cowan-Dickie, especially when you consider that George will be 30 later this year.

Some highlights. Seen him play a few times at hooker for Wellington and 6 for London Irish. Plays like the highlights. Big hits and some abrasive carrying in the tight, but generally unflashy. Not sure about his drop goal game.

https://youtu.be/grlvVvNVOEA

To be honest, watching him play, he doesn't scream future superstar. There are more promising players likely to be joining him in this year's academy intake. That said, he's got a decent crack at a pro career and you never know from there.



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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Fri 29 May 2020, 9:04 am

Looks a solid lump and does have a pretty good tackling technique

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 29 May 2020, 9:52 am

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Looks a solid lump and does have a pretty good tackling technique

Running technique seems to favour the Maori sidestep too

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Post by Welly on Fri 29 May 2020, 9:54 am

Margin_Walker wrote:

Some highlights. Seen him play a few times at hooker for Wellington and 6 for London Irish. Plays like the highlights. Big hits and some abrasive carrying in the tight, but generally unflashy. Not sure about his drop goal game.

https://youtu.be/grlvVvNVOEA

To be honest, watching him play, he doesn't scream future superstar. There are more promising players likely to be joining him in this year's academy intake. That said, he's got a decent crack at a pro career and you never know from there.



Marcus Rhodes is most likely the pick from your back row this year.
Have a excellent front row in
Haffar
Vajner
Keohane

although the most promising forwards IMO is from last year with lock Chunya Munga and openside Rossiter

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Post by Margin_Walker on Fri 29 May 2020, 10:20 am

Welly wrote:
Margin_Walker wrote:

Some highlights. Seen him play a few times at hooker for Wellington and 6 for London Irish. Plays like the highlights. Big hits and some abrasive carrying in the tight, but generally unflashy. Not sure about his drop goal game.

https://youtu.be/grlvVvNVOEA

To be honest, watching him play, he doesn't scream future superstar. There are more promising players likely to be joining him in this year's academy intake. That said, he's got a decent crack at a pro career and you never know from there.



Marcus Rhodes is most likely the pick from your back row this year.
Have a excellent front row in
Haffar
Vajner
Keohane

although the most promising forwards IMO is from last year with lock Chunya Munga and openside Rossiter

Yeah, it's a really good group and some decent prospects are going to miss out. As you say, the front row is very strong with Haffar the the really interesting one. He's very dominant in contact at U18s, with a decent turn of pace, so will be interesting to see how it translates. Yep, Rhodes at 8, you'd think would get a contract.

In the backs, the stand outs look to be Will Joseph at 13 (JJ's brother) and Michael Dykes on the wing. Dykes was injured for most of the LI U18s campaign, but he's looked like a future pro in the few times I've seen him.




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Post by king_carlos on Mon 01 Jun 2020, 8:34 pm

The financial fallout for unions is starting to tell. The Jaguares players have reportedly been told they can consider overseas offers regardless of contract situation in order to continue playing rugby.

The ARU have already seen players leave due to being unwilling to take paycuts and have today let go of more than 40% of their staff.

The Times also reporting that the regions might have their WRU funding cut from a cumulative £26m to £3m for next season.

There could be a lot of player movement in the coming months.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 01 Jun 2020, 9:41 pm

Nicky Thomas from Bristol to Ospreys. Old-ish news now, but the new news is that he’s been told to eat less😆. Him and Smith were some of the dominant props in their age group, but Thomas didn’t really kick on as well as others.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 01 Jun 2020, 9:42 pm

Cheetahs are signing up South Africans, not sure if they’re losing anyway. I wouldn’t mind nicking two of their locks. 

 They include South Africa back Frans Steyn, who last year joined an elite group of players to have lifted the men's World Cup twice.
The full-back, centre or outside-half is being joined at the Cheetahs by his Montpellier teammate Marcell Muller and Clermont Auvergne’s George Cronje following a triple raid on the French Top 14 by the ambitious South African franchise. “

Saying that, I’ve read on and here is their transfer news. Steenkamp is one of their locks I referred to, he’s off to the rebuilding Bulls.

“ In: Frans Steyn, Marcell Muller (both Montpellier), George Cronje (Clermont Auvergne), Louis van der Westhuizen (Bulls), Howard Mnisi (Southern Kings), Jeandre Rudolph (Pumas), Ian Groenewald (Griquas).
Out: Joseph Dweba (Bordeaux-Begles), Walt Steenkamp (Bulls), Jasper Wiese.

Bulls probably aren’t getting du Plessis or Grobler then.

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Post by BigGee on Mon 01 Jun 2020, 10:04 pm

They will miss Dweba, he is some player

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Mon 01 Jun 2020, 10:34 pm

king_carlos wrote:The financial fallout for unions is starting to tell. The Jaguares players have reportedly been told they can consider overseas offers regardless of contract situation in order to continue playing rugby.

The ARU have already seen players leave due to being unwilling to take paycuts and have today let go of more than 40% of their staff.

The Times also reporting that the regions might have their WRU funding cut from a cumulative £26m to £3m for next season.

There could be a lot of player movement in the coming months.


I'm sure there's some scrabbling around with clubs that have already signed up the majority of their squad for next season. Firstly open season in SA and now Argentina. There's a lot of DORs and head scouts running up expensive phone bills.

Most clubs would like a selection of those Jags players Chapparo, Montoya, Petti, Alemmano, Kremer, Ortago Desio, Cubelli, de la Fuente, Boffelli and Moroni would all be high on a lot of clubs wanted lists. Those of them with dual nationality will will be very valuable to Prem sides as they'll avoid the foreign player rules. I'd certainly hoover up Montoya, Alemmano and Ortago Desio for Tigers pack for next season, Lavanini can show them around the delights of Leicestershire.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 01 Jun 2020, 10:39 pm

BigGee wrote:They will miss Dweba, he is some player

He sure is and fits in with what BB are doing right now. South Africa have some depth.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Tue 02 Jun 2020, 10:29 am

This was posted by Mickey-Dragon on the summer tour thread:

Saints have signed someone now, assuming he’s an open side - Shaun Adendorff.

To which I responded:

Played blindside as far as I can see. Size and shape wise a direct copy of Brussow, 6'1" and a bit under 16 stone. Played centre for SA at sevens so must be pretty rapid. Nothing showing on the Saints website, although the Northampton Chronicle have it from a Twitter post from his old club Aurillac.

Does anybody know anything about him other than the Wiki info? Paper is talking about him as a replacement for Mitch Eadie, who was an 8 who could play 6. Adendorff is even smaller than Harrison so I cannot see him playing 8. We have sixes in profusion so I cannot see us wanting another, only one 8 and one 7 though.


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Post by BamBam on Tue 02 Jun 2020, 10:37 am

Never heard of him, but are you basing him being a blindside on wearing 6? Flankers are the other way round in South Africa, ie Du Toit wears 7 but is the blindside

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Tue 02 Jun 2020, 11:45 am

BamBam wrote:Never heard of him, but are you basing him being a blindside on wearing 6? Flankers are the other way round in South Africa, ie Du Toit wears 7 but is the blindside

No, the only piece of information I could find referring to position, other than back row, said blindside flanker, that was from "Ultimate Rugby"

Update - the "All-Rugby" stats show him as playing 8 for Aurillac. At 15 st 10lb (100kg) he would be the lightest 8 in the Premiership I should think.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Tue 02 Jun 2020, 12:03 pm

Pretty sure Sam Simmonds hovers around that weight.

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Post by Welly on Tue 02 Jun 2020, 1:05 pm

Adendorff has played all but 2 games at 8 for Aurillac.
He's not big but he isn't small, frame wise upper body wise he looks bigger than Harrison.

Pro D2 are not great at updating stats I wouldn't be surprised if he has put on half a stone to a stone of weight since being in France

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Post by Welly on Tue 02 Jun 2020, 1:10 pm

Yeh Aurillac have him down on their website as
6ft 1
BUT 17 stone 3 and in game footage he looks to be that size.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 02 Jun 2020, 1:32 pm

I just assumed he was an open-side when I seen his height and weight stats, compared to what SA usually put at blind-side and No.8. Maybe he can play across the back-row.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 02 Jun 2020, 6:32 pm

David Humphreys to leave Gloucester. No HC and now no DOR either. Rumours Cipriani has been on the phone to Shaun Edwards trying to tap him up.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 02 Jun 2020, 8:11 pm

Young and Howley linked with the Gloucester job. Dai Young wouldn’t be doing himself any favours going to Glaws imo, he’s had his shot at premiership glory using a better team - he needs to return to Pro14/18. Howley has proven to be more successful at gambling rather than backs coaching.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 02 Jun 2020, 10:19 pm

Wasps and Gloucester similar quality. Glaws have got a better pack (as long as they don't lose all the South African elements and can find a good tighthead to rotate with Balmain). Wasps have an explosive backline but can be bullied up front. Glaws should be considerably higher up the league this season with the squad they have. That said I don't see how a Young and Howley combo would be good for them.

Glaws need someone who's going to shape that squad into a gnarley forward back, mean defence and then give Cips the free reign to get the attack firing. Basically what Diamond did with Cips at Sale. Can't think straight off of someone to get them to that point. Unless they spend big and lure Weasels from the Rebels. They could go in house or try and bring back a fan favourite like Azam who's been coaching in France.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 03 Jun 2020, 8:24 am

Looks like Centre Johnny Williams is pretty much off to Scarlets.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Wed 03 Jun 2020, 9:06 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Looks like Centre Johnny Williams is pretty much off to Scarlets.

Ideal replacement for Parkes, has actual ties to Wales as well so when he makes his debut in the Six Nations it won't be as awkward as normal when they try to pass off a Kiwi as Welsh. There will still be pictures of him as an England age grade international but that's almost par for the course now.

A younger and quicker version of Parkes. He'll be popular with Scarlets and Wales I think. Williams and Tompkins is a good centre combination going forward for Wales as well.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 03 Jun 2020, 9:39 am

Theres a picture from last year when he played for England v the Baa baas Sam... Wink

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Wed 03 Jun 2020, 10:04 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Theres a picture from last year when he played for England v the Baa baas Sam... Wink

Yes I'd forgotten about that. We really should start giving out caps for games Vs the Baabaas would keep a lot more of our talent here and out of the hands of other nations. Would have kept Mike Hayley available for us as well.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Fri 05 Jun 2020, 9:06 am

Bath sign Will Spencer from Tigers. Good player when fit and in form. Issue is he takes at least three games to get up to speed and struggled to play as many as half a dozen games before another niggling injury. Seemed to be a popular member of the squad though.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 05 Jun 2020, 10:24 am

And ben spencer. Great signing that.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Fri 05 Jun 2020, 10:53 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:And ben spencer. Great signing that.

Big signing that one and on a three year contract. Really good move for Bath. They've picked up a South African prop as well, Shoeman. They are also keeping Matevesi for next season.

Their squad update on their website sets out a goal of a 50% homegrown squad by 2023. That's a very different direction for the club. I'll be watching with interest to see how that goes.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 05 Jun 2020, 11:14 am

They're keeping matavesi ? Interesting.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Fri 05 Jun 2020, 11:52 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:They're keeping matavesi ? Interesting.

They've lost Burns and released Davies so now have no senior flyhalf bar Priestland. Homer who'd be the most likely other cover has also gone. Matevesi wouldn't be ideal but he would be an option at both 10 and 12 similar with young Redpath. I'd have thought Bath will announce at least one more senior flyhalf though.

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Post by Recwatcher16 on Fri 05 Jun 2020, 12:14 pm

Apparently there will be a separate announcement about another FH, no reason given for the delay in the announcement.
Disappointed Homer is going, but he turned down a contract offer and looks to be another having a go in Japan. Everyone is pleased Will Spencer is rejoining - should never have left along with Devoto.

The startling news in all this is that sixteen senior players, including Louw's retirement, are leaving and only five plus a FH are joining. A great deal of emphasis is being put on newly promoted (and cheaper) academy players moving into professional contracts. Some strong potential but time will tell.

Striking how many players,who dont have Test background, are leaving for the French D2. There appears to be some big team budgets around.

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