The Covid-19 serious chat thread

[JuliusHMarx]

First topic message reminder :

Self-isolating, social distancing, locked down thread split.

[Pr4wn]

What a terrible mistake on my behalf, she attended one of 41 SAGE meetings, quite why her opinion hasn't been given more credence based on that is baffling.

Comparing her opinion with yours is the baffling part.

[Soul Requiem]

What a terrible mistake on my behalf, she attended one of 41 SAGE meetings, quite why her opinion hasn't been given more credence based on that is baffling.

Comparing her opinion with yours is the baffling part.

And i've done that where? I suppose your opinion is such that you can decide which advice should and shouldn't have been followed? Hmmmm interesting.

[Pr4wn]

It's sufficient to decide that I'll take the opinion of a member of SAGE over that of some bloke I don't know who can't properly construct a sentence.

[lostinwales]

There is this thing that to an extent we are all guilty of, but that seems to be ever more prevalent the more extreme the starting viewpoint. And that is that instead of engaging with an argument we look for secondary reasons to dismiss the need to engage in the first place.

I am cautious about so many of the conspiracy theories surrounding covid and would not have brought up the Dr. Michie's comments had I not found a primary source. Here the NYT has seen reason to do an article on the scientific review process and interviewed Michie in the process. Given her background it would seem that she is concerned about how SAGE has operated and how its output has been used. Of course she has been selectively quoted. But all of these things do not mean there is no case to answer.

There are areas where we do not have to conjecture. We have the worst casualty figures in Europe and there are serious signs that we have not got on top of CV19. Only Belgium has a higher death rate per capita and that in part seems to be related to better reporting. They certainly seemed to have dropped their infection rate now. It is natural to look for reasons why. Unfortunately we have a government that seems to be trying its best only to shift blame.

[JuliusHMarx]

What a terrible mistake on my behalf, she attended one of 41 SAGE meetings, quite why her opinion hasn't been given more credence based on that is baffling.

I only checked one. Maybe she attended several, or a majority. Whatever source you used that said she didn't attend any is clearly inaccurate.

[Soul Requiem]

What a terrible mistake on my behalf, she attended one of 41 SAGE meetings, quite why her opinion hasn't been given more credence based on that is baffling.

I only checked one. Maybe she attended several, or a majority. Whatever source you used that said she didn't attend any is clearly inaccurate.

You only checked one and it happened to be the only one she attended, sounds truthful to me.

[JuliusHMarx]

I googled, quickly found one she'd been at, didn't bother to look any further.
Certainly more truthful than saying she didn't attend any.

[lostinwales]

What a terrible mistake on my behalf, she attended one of 41 SAGE meetings, quite why her opinion hasn't been given more credence based on that is baffling.

I only checked one. Maybe she attended several, or a majority. Whatever source you used that said she didn't attend any is clearly inaccurate.

You only checked one and it happened to be the only one she attended, sounds truthful to me.

Rather than derail the conversation over a technicality - What do you actually think of the claims then Soul?

[jimbopip]

I read the article and my, superficial, reading was that it was not the solitary opinion of one quoted member of SAGE but rather a consensus that the government pretty much ignored the advice that didn't suit them and used SAGE as an umbrella to shelter under when the public needed someone to blame. As I said that's just my reading of it.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

What is it with Johnson, first his boss goes awol and breaks every rule in the book about Covid-19 travelling and isolating, then his father goes off on a jolly to Greece, via Bulgaria as he knew he would not be accepted from the UK. He needed to make sure his villa was ready for occupancy and was covid-19 ready i.e. buy some hand sanitiser. Even if it was more, doe she not have an agent out there who could sort anything out for him.

Another breach of the non-essential travel rules that Johnson (Jnr) refuses to condemn.

No noise being made about Farage's little trip to the USA to attend a Trump rally where there was unlikely to be any form of social distancing or precautions. One, not essential (other than to his ego). Two, breaks all the rules about quarantine. Three, proves there is one rule for them and another for everybody else.

Repeat, another breach of the non-essential travel rules that Johnson (Jnr) refuses to condemn.

[Samo]

Coronavirus: 'Crystal clear' drunk people will not socially distance

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53296689

In the immortal words of Ghandi - No Frak Poopie Sherlock. They're not even bothering the "herd immunity by stealth" anymore. Let the people get infected, but at the same time claim people "need common sense" so when it goes tits up again you can deflect the blame.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Face coverings in shops:

Sunday Gove - I trust peoples good sense, face coverings will NOT be made mandatory in shops

Monday Johnson - Face coverings WILL be made mandatory in shops from 24 July.

Talk about one hand doesn't know what the other is doing, either that or both are shooting off at the hip as usual. Is it any wonder that people get confused and others just disregard anything this attempt at a Government says.

[MrInvisible]

On the face coverings issue, I understand how they can make a difference but I'm a bit concerned that we may be losing some of the messaging on hand cleansing, etc whilst we focus on the coverings.  I've been using gloves whilst shopping for a long time now and whilst I see a fair few folk with face coverings I see very few people wearing protective gloves - surely there's a risk of spreading germs that way too.  Ditto on public transport - I've seen (most but not all) people on buses with face coverings but very few with gloves and/or using hand sanitizer before/after touching hand-rails, etc.  Is it just me or is this an issue?

During the summer I'm hoping to do a road-trip round the UK, though I am going to check carefully on different regulations between Scotland, Wales and England before I do so!

What's peoples thoughts on a 2nd wave?  Obviously this raises concerns on a number of levels, but on an economic angle, this could be even more damaging than the first lockdown, especially if it hits High Street retailers in run-up to Christmas.  I also think if the schools have to close again that will really hit many people hard and accentuate the attainment gap between kids from different backgrounds.

[Samo]

On the face coverings issue, I understand how they can make a difference but I'm a bit concerned that we may be losing some of the messaging on hand cleansing, etc whilst we focus on the coverings.  I've been using gloves whilst shopping for a long time now and whilst I see a fair few folk with face coverings I see very few people wearing protective gloves - surely there's a risk of spreading germs that way too.  Ditto on public transport - I've seen (most but not all) people on buses with face coverings but very few with gloves and/or using hand sanitizer before/after touching hand-rails, etc.  Is it just me or is this an issue?

Just you, gloves are basically pointless unless you're discarding them and changing them regularly. And I say regularly I mean after everytime you touch something - which is why more emphasis was put on properly washing and sanitizing your hands.

[LondonTiger]

Also worth noting that Face Coverings are much more about protecting other people from you, rather than protecting the wearer.

So washing your hands regularly, sanitising etc means you are worried about catching it.

Wearing a face covering means you care about others (or of course think it saves you when it does not)

[LondonTiger]

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Sir Patrick Vallance appears to be distancing himself and the rest of the SAGE committee from UKG thinking and actions. Snippets from the Telegraph:

"He said the risk of COVID-19 spreading into care homes was raised in February and that the big outbreaks seen in some were a result of "policy choices and how those policy choices are made - that's not a decision for me"

"Sir Patrick also appeared to give a stark warning about the PM's reported plan to change the guidance on people working from home on Friday.

"My view on this, and I think this is a view shared by SAGE, is that we’re still at a time when distancing measures are important," he said.

Of the various distancing measures, working from home for many companies remains a perfectly good option, because it’s easy to do.

Sir Patrick said working from home is 'a perfectly good option'
"A number of companies think it’s actually not detrimental to productivity, and in that situation there’s absolutely no reason I can see to change it."

"He said SAGE's modelling sub-group saw at that point that the number of days over which COVID-19 cases were doubling had gone down to three.

That's when the advice that SAGE issued was the remainder of the [lockdown] measures should be introduced as soon as possible," he said.

That advice, I think, was given on the 18th of March or the 16th of March."

Full lockdown measures were not imposed in the UK until 23 March."

[rodders]

Sir Patrick and Chris Whitty last night answered questions from the Covid select committee.

It's pretty clear they are partially culpable for handling this badly - examples

- treating this like a flu pandemic
- not understanding the asymptomatic transfer until recently despite it being known from the beginning.
- picking up on the rapid increase in cases too late in March

Despite Whitty stating that he is in regular contact with counterparts from other countries and the WHO, scientifically Britain seems to be behind the curve scientifically.

That said, it is also clear that they are having less and less influence over the "policy makers". Vallance and Whitty now seem to be poles apart from the government, with the strategy deviating further from the advice on a daily basis.

Bojo, Hancock, Cummings and Banks are clearly running the show.

[Pr4wn]

Meanwhile, England's Chief Nurse has confirmed she was dropped from the daily briefings after she didn't publicly back Cummings.

[Pr4wn]

In much better news, it appears as though a promising vaccine candidate has emerged from Oxford.

[navyblueshorts]

Sir Patrick and Chris Whitty last night answered questions from the Covid select committee.

It's pretty clear they are partially culpable for handling this badly - examples

- treating this like a flu pandemic
- not understanding the asymptomatic transfer until recently despite it being known from the beginning.
- picking up on the rapid increase in cases too late in March

Despite Whitty stating that he is in regular contact with counterparts from other countries and the WHO, scientifically Britain seems to be behind the curve scientifically.

That said, it is also clear that they are having less and less influence over the "policy makers". Vallance and Whitty now seem to be poles apart from the government, with the strategy deviating further from the advice on a daily basis.

Bojo, Hancock, Cummings and Banks are clearly running the show.

Re. flu - understandable, but w/ that lovely 20:20 hindsight, not as good as it could have been.
Re. asymptomatic transfer, it was not 'known from the beginning'.
Re. picking up on case increases, maybe. Again, easy w/ hindsight.

[navyblueshorts]

Meanwhile, England's Chief Nurse has confirmed she was dropped from the daily briefings after she didn't publicly back Cummings.

Not surprising. Petty, but not surprising.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

The Commons Public Accounts Committee is lambasting the Government about it's failures both in not having any plans for a possible pandemic and poor reaction when it hit.

BBC Report can be found here.

Surprisingly, one of the main gripes is that the Government did not realise that a pandemic would affect the economy.

The government undertook at three-day pandemic simulation exercise in 2016 known a Exercise Cygnus.

But the committee said the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy "was not even aware of the exercise", saying: "It is astounding that the government did not think about the potential impact on the economy.

So not just Johnson and his sycophants, but May and her administration as well.

Beginning to think that maybe we are nearly as bad as Trump and his miss - administration

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Face masks become compulsory tomorrow in enclosed public spaces unless you shop in Tesco, Sainsburys or Lidl where you will not be challenged if you do not wear one. It is up to others to enforce the law is what they are saying. The customer may have a disability that is not obvious.

When was the last time you saw a copper walking around Tesco?

What is the point of making a law that has no teeth and is so easily floutable.

[LondonTiger]

What is the point of making a law that has no teeth and is so easily floutable.

Well the PM believes that "good old fashioned British common sense" will see people do the right thing.

The evidence of his own eyes (and his own advisor's behaviour) does not seem to shift his sepia tinted specs.

I am sure a sizeable majority will comply, but there are enough people who fit the stereotype of us held by many Europeans (drunken, selfish louts) and a section more of the foil hat brigade that it will not be enough.

I do not blame retail outlets for declining to force this measure on people, as past experience shows that violence would ensue.

[Duty281]

It's doubly pointless when you remember that shop workers are not required to wear face coverings under the new law.

Looking at the list of exemptions on the law, all you need to do is claim 'anxiety' if you're caught not wearing a face mask and challenged about it by law enforcement (not that you will be; the police are too stretched to deal with most things already) or shop workers.

[navyblueshorts]

It's clear that many don't understand any of the nuance and risk assessment behind masks etc etc. It's not black and white and we aren't privy to the relevant data.

Re. shop workers - if the shop has risk assessed and made sure they're distanced in any customer interaction, why would they need a mask? Shop can't so easily control behaviour of shoppers towards one another in an enclosed space.

On subject of effect of masks, lest there should be any doubt re. effects on potential spread of a respiratory disease:

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/app-health-section/2020/07/23/mask-test-study-wellness.cnn/video/playlists/coronavirus/

[Samo]

In my local supermarket staff in customer facing areas are required to wear some form of face covering - be it a mask, a scarf or a visor - apart from checkout staff but thats because they have big plastic shields up between them and customers.

The list of exemptions is fair if you ask me, although unless you actually fit into any of those categories I cant see why you wouldnt wear something. If you struggle with something over your mouth then a plastic visor is still a valid face covering.  Its quite comforting to see a lot of people in my area wearing something, like 95% of people I see out have a mask on, but we had the requirement a fortnight ago so are a bit more used to it now.

As far as Im concerned its a common courtesy.  I wear my mask to protect you so I ask you do the same for me if possible.

Edit: I will say though I think both Scottish and UK governments could do better to explain how to use a mask safely. I havent seen much communication saying only to use disposable ones once and if you're using a scarf or a snood or something similar to wash it regularly.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

So Johnson finally admits that his government got a lot wrong over the first few weeks and months of the pandemic.

That is when you need to get things right. We learnt from our mistakes, yes they did but 2-3 months too late, why could they not learn from the mistakes of all the other countries that had it first. More importantly, why could they not learn from the countries that got it right.

PPE we were constantly told we have enough, but it is the logistics of getting it to where is it was needed, no we didn't we were still trying to buy it on and exhausted market.

An effective track and trace system for instance, a number of countries that were effective have said that they offered the system to the British but we said thanks, but no thanks. We will go our own way. In July we still do not have one that is anywhere near as good as the Germans, or that even works effectively. Trying to track people that have come into contact with a stranger is nigh on impossible without a tech based system.

Our rate of spread (R Rate) is still between 0.7 and 0.9, it hasn't gone down in the last 6 weeks, why!!!

Partly due to the lifting of restrictions, but these restrictions were not supposed to be lifted with the rate that high according to the initial figures on releasing lockdown. It is the gi

Governments failures that have led to them being released before they should be to help out the economy.

Starmer is going to have a filed day with all the inconsistencies between what they are saying now and said a few months ago.


How is it we are still failing?

[lostinwales]

So Johnson finally admits that his government got a lot wrong over the first few weeks and months of the pandemic.

That is when you need to get things right. We learnt from our mistakes, yes they did but 2-3 months too late, why could they not learn from the mistakes of all the other countries that had it first. More importantly, why could they not learn from the countries that got it right.

PPE we were constantly told we have enough, but it is the logistics of getting it to where is it was needed, no we didn't we were still trying to buy it on and exhausted market.

An effective track and trace system for instance, a number of countries that were effective have said that they offered the system to the British but we said thanks, but no thanks. We will go our own way. In July we still do not have one that is anywhere near as good as the Germans, or that even works effectively. Trying to track people that have come into contact with a stranger is nigh on impossible without a tech based system.

Our rate of spread (R Rate) is still between 0.7 and 0.9, it hasn't gone down in the last 6 weeks, why!!!

Partly due to the lifting of restrictions, but these restrictions were not supposed to be lifted with the rate that high according to the initial figures on releasing lockdown. It is the gi

Governments failures that have led to them being released before they should be to help out the economy.

Starmer is going to have a filed day with all the inconsistencies between what they are saying now and said a few months ago.


How is it we are still failing?

Very easy to slip into certain traps of blaming the government so that is what I am going to do, not least because it is hard to think of other reasons. The government seems very centralised. There is a very small core taking all the big decisions and they are nothing like as smart and able as they like to think they are. Not only that but they don't like having their decisions questioned. End result is a lot of badly thought out choices and a lot of panic reactions when the inevitable consequences occur.

I saw some interesting comments yesterday about the move to wearing masks in shops. The legislation was pushed through after parliament went into recess, apparently precisely so that it could not be debated before coming into law.

[LondonTiger]

People who had booked their summer holidays to Spain well before the pandemic are in a real pickle now. Because Foreign Office guidance says travel to Spain can happen they are not covered by insurance if they cancel, but of course have to take a further two weeks off work if they go. Must be even more galling that:

a) With the issue being mainly in Catalonia, they could go to parts of Southern France and be at more risk but not have to quarantine

b) If they are due to go to the Balearics or Canaries they still have issues, despite these being much safer than UK.


Still feels like decisions are being made on the hoof and so that they are seen to be doing something.

[dummy_half]

LT

Remember the Govt has to be seen to be doing something, and this definitely is 'something'.

Obviously the wrong thing wrt the way it has been done, and by the inclusion of the islands as well as mainland Spain.

[lostinwales]

LT

Remember the Govt has to be seen to be doing something, and this definitely is 'something'.

Obviously the wrong thing wrt the way it has been done, and by the inclusion of the islands as well as mainland Spain.

Maybe they just wanted to wind up Grant Shapps.

[Samo]

LT

Remember the Govt has to be seen to be doing something, and this definitely is 'something'.

Obviously the wrong thing wrt the way it has been done, and by the inclusion of the islands as well as mainland Spain.

Its definitely a case of "we need to be seen to be doing something" so they panicked and rushed out a flawed plan. If they thought for 5 minutes they would realise most holiday makers dont go to mainland Spain where the spike has been, but to the Balearic Islands where cases are still relatively low. All they had to do with exclude them from the quarantine plan and it would have saved a lot of people a lot of headaches.

Im trying not to sound like its a case of "damned if you do damned if you dont" but just put some bloody thought into it.

[navyblueshorts]

Good grief. Didn't lock down fast enough, now introduce quarantining from Spain too fast. Yeah, let's leave it open for incomers from Spain for a week or two more so we can bash UKG again re. incoming disease vectors and if they're seen to be the cause of local spikes and lockdowns.

Re. Balearics etc, I wouldn't put it past self-important British tourists to be in Barcelona, but then fly to Majorca etc before coming home from there, just to avoid any quarantine.

Sorry. I have zero sympathy with anyone deciding they absolutely must have an international holiday in the middle of a ****ing pandemic and then have the chutzpah to moan about it. **** off. It was a glaring risk if you chose to go galavanting, just because you have to get some sun. No, you don't. Suck it up.

[Pr4wn]

Good grief. Didn't lock down fast enough, now introduce quarantining from Spain too fast. Yeah, let's leave it open for incomers from Spain for a week or two more so we can bash UKG again re. incoming disease vectors and if they're seen to be the cause of local spikes and lockdowns.

Re. Balearics etc, I wouldn't put it past self-important British tourists to be in Barcelona, but then fly to Majorca etc before coming home from there, just to avoid any quarantine.

Sorry. I have zero sympathy with anyone deciding they absolutely must have an international holiday in the middle of a ****ing pandemic and then have the chutzpah to moan about it. **** off. It was a glaring risk if you chose to go galavanting, just because you have to get some sun. No, you don't. Suck it up.

This.

[LondonTiger]

Re. Balearics etc, I wouldn't put it past self-important British tourists to be in Barcelona, but then fly to Majorca etc before coming home from there, just to avoid any quarantine.

As Stanley Johnson showed, if you have the cash there are plenty of ways to "legally" break the rules. In this case flying via any country that is not shut to Spain would still work.

I felt sorry for the large number of people who book their holidays early, will have paid for it (and a holiday for two adults plus kids in school holidays is not cheap). They will have worried during lockdown they may lose their holiday, but at least be comforted that they would get their money back. The Govt then opened up these "air corridors" and said it was safe to travel. Now if they have already gone they face two weeks quarantine, if not they are at the mercy of their travel company unless Govt states no travel should happen to Spain (not sure if the essential travel only guidance means travel insurance can be claimed against).

[lostinwales]

Re. Balearics etc, I wouldn't put it past self-important British tourists to be in Barcelona, but then fly to Majorca etc before coming home from there, just to avoid any quarantine.

As Stanley Johnson showed, if you have the cash there are plenty of ways to "legally" break the rules. In this case flying via any country that is not shut to Spain would still work.

I felt sorry for the large number of people who book their holidays early, will have paid for it (and a holiday for two adults plus kids in school holidays is not cheap). They will have worried during lockdown they may lose their holiday, but at least be comforted that they would get their money back. The Govt then opened up these "air corridors" and said it was safe to travel. Now if they have already gone they face two weeks quarantine, if not they are at the mercy of their travel company unless Govt states no travel should happen to Spain (not sure if the essential travel only guidance means travel insurance can be claimed against).

All that plus ambiguity of how they should quarantine on their return. If they can work from home then OK. If they can't, and can't go into work then 'its up to the employers'. Badly thought out again.

[LondonTiger]

I know the Govt are between a rock and a hard place, and whatever they do can be criticised. I am not criticising applying the quarantine rules (well no more than the original ones) as it should have been in place earlier. Just the blanket application that is (for those with money) easy to work around.

I originally found it amusing that Grant Shapps had been caught out by it, but angered when he stated he knew before flying to Spain that the rules would change, but felt it was wrong to use that knowledge and not fly. He has chosen to return and quarantine leaving his family out there - however would have been better not to go and let everyone who flew at the weekend know that this would happen.

[lostinwales]

If you ever want to understand how bad it could get (and even with Johnson+ co in charge I can't see it happening here) it is worth checking out @aliostad on twitter - who writes of things in Iran. They are now getting people reinfected (and dying) of covid.

[navyblueshorts]

If you ever want to understand how bad it could get (and even with Johnson+ co in charge I can't see it happening here) it is worth checking out @aliostad on twitter - who writes of things in Iran. They are now getting people reinfected (and dying) of covid.

Re. @aliostad, is that someone you'd trust to confirm that those that've had covid are now getting it again and dying? I'm not on Twitter, but it seems very, very unlikely to me. Nothing I've heard of undergoes antigenic variation that fast such that people are re-infected w/ a different strain of a virus within weeks (or at most, a few months) that's seen as a novel agent by our adaptive immune systems . Maybe it's true - in which case, watch out World.

[lostinwales]

If you ever want to understand how bad it could get (and even with Johnson+ co in charge I can't see it happening here) it is worth checking out @aliostad on twitter - who writes of things in Iran. They are now getting people reinfected (and dying) of covid.

Re. @aliostad, is that someone you'd trust to confirm that those that've had covid are now getting it again and dying? I'm not on Twitter, but it seems very, very unlikely to me. Nothing I've heard of undergoes antigenic variation that fast such that people are re-infected w/ a different strain of a virus within weeks (or at most, a few months) that's seen as  a novel agent by our adaptive immune systems . Maybe it's true - in which case, watch out World.

He says they can't confirm absolutely because they are not doing that kind of testing - but that the assumption is made based on medical staff who have fallen ill a few months back falling ill again. He suspects it may be mutations in the strain.

[lostinwales]

New local lockdowns in Greater Manchester amongst other areas. Infection rates going up - which is obviously bad news. What the local lockdown means other than banning home visits is anyone's guess.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Johnson admits they were a bit slow on the uptake and did get some things wrong in the first few months. The Home Affairs committee says we got it very wrong with regard to quarantine restrictions on arrivals into the UK. The Home Office i.e. Pritti Patel, says we got it all right and we did everything in time to keep us all safe. We were at all times guided by the science.

We know from what the scientists have told us that the government listened to them and then made it's own decisions, that can be construed as being guided. They did not however act on the advice given when they didn't like it. Guided is not the same as followed.

It was just common sense that people coming into the country from abroad, especially infected areas should have bee either tested or quarantined, we did neither until June which was way too late.

She kept us very safe, highest per capita death rate in Europe baring Belgium, we even managed to beat Sweden who started off and continued with the herd immunity policy and those are the official figures not the probable rate taken by deaths this year against last year.

Patel, is my least favorite Minister out of a pretty (no pun intended) poor bunch, she is arrogant to the extreme, by all accounts a bully and I do not see what she brings to the government, every post she has held has been a disaster, a sort upgraded Grayling.

She is now contradicting her boss who was trying to put a human face on the problem by admitting mistakes which cannot be denied. one good thing about here is that Starmer will have a target to show people what they are potentially electing come the next election. The bad thing is she will have probably killed a further 60K people by next year when a second spike comes along.

[LondonTiger]

Making mistakes is not an absolute sin (sure perhaps we should have done things quicker, especially as we were later in the development stages and could have learned from others).

However failing to learn from those mistakes (or even acknowledging them) and compounding on the errors will be unforgiveable. The Govt has a short window to get things straight - this includes sorting out the complete omnishambles that is the current track and trace program.

[lostinwales]

For types who spend time on twitter...

https://twitter.com/garius/status/1289127360348987394?s=20

A thread on good governance and what 'common sense' actually means.

Apparently the Government published new laws on the local lockdown around Manchester yesterday which came into action overnight - and you know what - they mean nothing. I am lucky enough to be able to work from home and my company is busier than ever. Outside of that I'll continue using my 'individual sense' of what is right to keep my family safe

[Pr4wn]

Good article by Starmer in the Guardian yesterday.

Johnson's refusal to accept that Track and Trace is not fit for purpose is so counter-productive. Saying that it's world-beating, touting meaningless statistics and gaslighting the public just undermines confidence.

[lostinwales]

Good article by Starmer in the Guardian yesterday.

Johnson's refusal to accept that Track and Trace is not fit for purpose is so counter-productive. Saying that it's world-beating, touting meaningless statistics and gaslighting the public just undermines confidence.

Seen that quote from the professor on Newsnight last night? Something along the lines of 'It doesn't have to be world beating, just virus beating'

[Samo]

Aberdeen back in lockdown after a small spike in cases.

[jimbopip]

https://mobile.twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1291244082145177600?fbclid=IwAR0FfEnXk3hbffp-PSiDk4DP-xzRfAU5Q0FORxnWAYr6AXdmWcIRvwt9YkQ

i hope the link opens; this is an extraordinary story of, at best, incompetence and at worst illegal activities at a very high level.

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