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Should the top two English leagues be merged?

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 16 Jun 2020, 6:45 pm

First topic message reminder :

Ruck.co.uk have put together a rather pie in the sky piece about league reform in England.

https://www.ruck.co.uk/what-would-the-premiership-look-like-if-it-was-split-into-conferences-like-the-nfl/

It suggests splitting the top two divisions into 5 NFL style conferences. 

NORTHERN DIVISION
Doncaster Knights
Newcastle Falcons
Sale Sharks
Yorkshire Carnegie

LONDON DIVISION
Ealing Trailfinders
Harlequins
London Irish
Saracens

MIDLANDS 1
Bedford Blues
Leicester Tigers
Northampton Saints
Nottingham

MIDLANDS 2
Bristol Bears
Gloucester
Wasps
Worcester Warriors

SOUTHERN DIVISION
Bath
Cornish Pirates
Exeter Chiefs
Jersey

The issues emerge immediately as outraged Bristol fans want to know why they are a Midlands team and Bath are a Southern one. Midlands 2 would be much better re-badged as West.

Yorkshire/Leeds or whatever their name is this week obviously aren't fit to enter and Coventry would probably be annoyed by being overlooked after finishing last season on 4th. Not sure the Prem teams would be keen on sharing the television coverage pie but more games should mean more coverage options and maybe some shared coverage.

The West Country teams would probably want to be in the same group for derby game purposes but this would make their conference extremely harsh.

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Post by PhilBB on Mon 14 Sep 2020, 4:03 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So distance is the factor. Ok I can get that. Better to be bottom under the english than the occasional away game to Dublin.

Ah, 'bottom under the English' is an interesting term when you consider that, potentially, Doncaster could be a team in this competition. Let's say it was two divisions of 10 - I'd doubt that all four Welsh teams would be in the first division, so you've got something with that silly jibe. I'd think that two of the Welsh four would have a strong chance of winning it, however, with the English salary cap as it presently is.

I've never met 7&1/2 but have been to Donny a few times as well as Yorkshire. Yorkshire are now completely bankrupt and will be lucky to survive in any form. Donny are a small well run club with a reasonable ground for the level they play at, but there's no way the ground or the squad are fit for Premiership rugby.

The only way Donny could even think if it is for a Nigel Wray type to come in and chuck money at it, which as far as I can tell is something that neither the club or the supporters want. It's a nice day out, they generally finish mid table and the rugby's pretty good.

So which of the two Welsh clubs you think can compete with Sarcens, Exeter, Bath and the rest ? Show your working......

Before we do that, do you now accept that your previous claims over salary caps was incorrect?
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Post by PhilBB on Mon 14 Sep 2020, 4:05 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
You wouldnt want too much change in a league of 10. But then all you've made is assumptions. You're spelling out your case and you want the dice to fall.your way. The bigger more successful league is going to dictate anything like this. You've said yourself the pro 14 is failing the Welsh are not in a position  of strength. Begs the question would you really want to join when you see what the real world option was.

The question you've begged is answered by CVC.

2 down, 2 up increases the value of both competitions and CVC will want valuable competitions.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 14 Sep 2020, 4:06 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So distance is the factor. Ok I can get that. Better to be bottom under the english than the occasional away game to Dublin.

Ah, 'bottom under the English' is an interesting term when you consider that, potentially, Doncaster could be a team in this competition. Let's say it was two divisions of 10 - I'd doubt that all four Welsh teams would be in the first division, so you've got something with that silly jibe. I'd think that two of the Welsh four would have a strong chance of winning it, however, with the English salary cap as it presently is.

I've never met 7&1/2 but have been to Donny a few times as well as Yorkshire. Yorkshire are now completely bankrupt and will be lucky to survive in any form. Donny are a small well run club with a reasonable ground for the level they play at, but there's no way the ground or the squad are fit for Premiership rugby.

The only way Donny could even think if it is for a Nigel Wray type to come in and chuck money at it, which as far as I can tell is something that neither the club or the supporters want. It's a nice day out, they generally finish mid table and the rugby's pretty good.

So which of the two Welsh clubs you think can compete with Sarcens, Exeter, Bath and the rest ? Show your working......

They're also one of the clubs who have requested even if they were to win the league they would turn down the chance to go to the prem.

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Post by PhilBB on Mon 14 Sep 2020, 4:07 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So distance is the factor. Ok I can get that. Better to be bottom under the english than the occasional away game to Dublin.

Ah, 'bottom under the English' is an interesting term when you consider that, potentially, Doncaster could be a team in this competition. Let's say it was two divisions of 10 - I'd doubt that all four Welsh teams would be in the first division, so you've got something with that silly jibe. I'd think that two of the Welsh four would have a strong chance of winning it, however, with the English salary cap as it presently is.

I've never met 7&1/2 but have been to Donny a few times as well as Yorkshire. Yorkshire are now completely bankrupt and will be lucky to survive in any form. Donny are a small well run club with a reasonable ground for the level they play at, but there's no way the ground or the squad are fit for Premiership rugby.

The only way Donny could even think if it is for a Nigel Wray type to come in and chuck money at it, which as far as I can tell is something that neither the club or the supporters want. It's a nice day out, they generally finish mid table and the rugby's pretty good.

So which of the two Welsh clubs you think can compete with Sarcens, Exeter, Bath and the rest ? Show your working......

They're also one of the clubs who have requested even if they were to win the league they would turn down the chance to go to the prem.

Which is the point I made about English rugby having too few teams.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 14 Sep 2020, 4:07 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
You wouldnt want too much change in a league of 10. But then all you've made is assumptions. You're spelling out your case and you want the dice to fall.your way. The bigger more successful league is going to dictate anything like this. You've said yourself the pro 14 is failing the Welsh are not in a position  of strength. Begs the question would you really want to join when you see what the real world option was.

The question you've begged is answered by CVC.

2 down, 2 up increases the value of both competitions and CVC will want valuable competitions.

Why would the English want that? They're going through the process to ring fence.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 14 Sep 2020, 4:08 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So distance is the factor. Ok I can get that. Better to be bottom under the english than the occasional away game to Dublin.

Ah, 'bottom under the English' is an interesting term when you consider that, potentially, Doncaster could be a team in this competition. Let's say it was two divisions of 10 - I'd doubt that all four Welsh teams would be in the first division, so you've got something with that silly jibe. I'd think that two of the Welsh four would have a strong chance of winning it, however, with the English salary cap as it presently is.

I've never met 7&1/2 but have been to Donny a few times as well as Yorkshire. Yorkshire are now completely bankrupt and will be lucky to survive in any form. Donny are a small well run club with a reasonable ground for the level they play at, but there's no way the ground or the squad are fit for Premiership rugby.

The only way Donny could even think if it is for a Nigel Wray type to come in and chuck money at it, which as far as I can tell is something that neither the club or the supporters want. It's a nice day out, they generally finish mid table and the rugby's pretty good.

So which of the two Welsh clubs you think can compete with Sarcens, Exeter, Bath and the rest ? Show your working......

They're also one of the clubs who have requested even if they were to win the league they would turn down the chance to go to the prem.

Which is the point I made about English rugby having too few teams.

What do you mean? Doncaster still exist.

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Post by PhilBB on Mon 14 Sep 2020, 4:10 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
You wouldnt want too much change in a league of 10. But then all you've made is assumptions. You're spelling out your case and you want the dice to fall.your way. The bigger more successful league is going to dictate anything like this. You've said yourself the pro 14 is failing the Welsh are not in a position  of strength. Begs the question would you really want to join when you see what the real world option was.

The question you've begged is answered by CVC.

2 down, 2 up increases the value of both competitions and CVC will want valuable competitions.

Why would the English want that? They're going through the process to ring fence.

CVC is in control of the destiny of the competition.
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Post by rugby racing and beer on Mon 14 Sep 2020, 4:13 pm

PhilBB wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:

Sorry, maybe I got my wires crossed, when you said rugby should be more like the NFL I thought you meant adopting their processes. We already have a salary cap (of sorts) although I do agree that the smaller clubs or clubs without a sugar daddy do struggle to even meet it.

Still not convinced what a conference structure brings though - maybe go to two divisions with a couple of Championship teams and spread the TV money across both - but I can't see the turkeys voting for Christmas on that one. English rugby does need a pro team in the North though, firstly as a presence and secondly to stop Rugby League taking all the best prospects.

The Academy area for the rugby league heartland is already in place, isn't it? So I'm not sure it 'needs' a professional team to stop that from happening.

My point on conferences is solely that the NFL model hasn't been tried.

My club is stuck in a garbage competition that nominally has 'conferences'. It's utterly abysmal.

Here you go "beers". Here's an example of something that you've clearly missed, hence you're struggling to follow the basic logic.

I didn't miss it at all. It's so ridiculous it's not worth responding to.

You're a 'no true Scotsman' about conferences, apparently, where the conference systems in Europe and the SH don't count because they haven't worked for your specific Welsh region.

You seem delusional, living in a fantasy land, oblivious about the difference between theory and practice.

Why are you warping a discussion about England to include your own myopic delusions about your Welsh region? England should do what is best for England, obviously, and that doesn't mean killing the best competition structure in club rugby for the sake of including Doncaster and Jersey. I have no idea why you're even talking about Wales tbh. As I said, you're incoherent and nonsenical.

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Post by PhilBB on Mon 14 Sep 2020, 4:13 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So distance is the factor. Ok I can get that. Better to be bottom under the english than the occasional away game to Dublin.

Ah, 'bottom under the English' is an interesting term when you consider that, potentially, Doncaster could be a team in this competition. Let's say it was two divisions of 10 - I'd doubt that all four Welsh teams would be in the first division, so you've got something with that silly jibe. I'd think that two of the Welsh four would have a strong chance of winning it, however, with the English salary cap as it presently is.

I've never met 7&1/2 but have been to Donny a few times as well as Yorkshire. Yorkshire are now completely bankrupt and will be lucky to survive in any form. Donny are a small well run club with a reasonable ground for the level they play at, but there's no way the ground or the squad are fit for Premiership rugby.

The only way Donny could even think if it is for a Nigel Wray type to come in and chuck money at it, which as far as I can tell is something that neither the club or the supporters want. It's a nice day out, they generally finish mid table and the rugby's pretty good.

So which of the two Welsh clubs you think can compete with Sarcens, Exeter, Bath and the rest ? Show your working......

They're also one of the clubs who have requested even if they were to win the league they would turn down the chance to go to the prem.

Which is the point I made about English rugby having too few teams.

What do you mean? Doncaster still exist.

Good God. You noted yourself they don't want to be promoted. So what's the point of having a second tier if teams within it don't want to be promoted?
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 14 Sep 2020, 4:13 pm

They're not. The clubs will still be in charge. Someone was banging on about cvc wanting a british and irish league the other day. Just slightly less appealing than than an english and welsh.

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Post by PhilBB on Mon 14 Sep 2020, 4:14 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:

I didn't miss it at all. It's so ridiculous it's not worth responding to.

You're a 'no true Scotsman' about conferences, apparently, where the conference systems in Europe and the SH don't count because they haven't worked for your specific Welsh region.

You seem delusional, living in a fantasy land, oblivious about the difference between theory and practice.

Why are you warping a discussion about England to include your own myopic delusions about your Welsh region? England should do what is best for England, obviously, and that doesn't mean killing the best competition structure in club rugby for the sake of including Doncaster and Jersey. I have no idea why you're even talking about Wales tbh. As I said, you're incoherent and nonsenical.

Ok, no worries. I can see that following a train of thought results in you writing that kind of post.

So can we return to which NFL franchises have been 'broke'?
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Post by PhilBB on Mon 14 Sep 2020, 4:15 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:They're not. The clubs will still be in charge. Someone was banging on about cvc wanting a british and irish league the other day. Just slightly less appealing than than an english and welsh.

Ok. What makes you say the clubs will still be in charge?
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Post by rugby racing and beer on Mon 14 Sep 2020, 4:17 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:I'll reiterate my point: the conference system has been a disaster in rugby whether that's Super Rugby or the Pro14. It only rewards the small pool of 'winners' - in this case NZ and Ireland. Everyone else has suffered: Argentina saw their national team become a laughing stock and their test players were earning less money than they were prior to the Jaguares. Australian rugby has gone down the pan and is circling the drain. Welsh rugby has dropped off a cliff and along with Scotland they are competing against the Irish who are not only in a tax haven in comparison to the UK but are competing against union-ran provinces that have completely wrapped up the league for their own continued success (most notably Leinster's, with particular focus on Europe). South Africa have seen revenues fall and their own players have vanished overseas, leaving room for politics to come surging back in and do its best to cripple the Boks. The Japanese saw that Super Rugby was doing very little for it and rightly left once they had gained the experience they needed from the Sunwolves: surprise, surprise, their own domestic league is now more attractive than Super Rugby.

Conference rugby doesn't work.

England would be stupid to kill their own league system out of blind trust of hedge fund money.

I feel like rugby is deliberately throwing itself off a cliff while pretending someone is down below waiting to soften the fall. It's very odd and comes from a desperation for money in order to keep and attract outside investment as well as provide a world class salary for rugby players who might otherwise be tempted by other pro sports. On the other hand, it's also just sheer incompetence by those running the game, which can be forgiven in the circumstances as rugby is lurching in to true professionalism with no small amount of damage done on the way.

Hes talking leagues. Ie the aviva prem and the championship clubs with the welsh teams in it.

I know but that's not the topic. You should stop giving him oxygen, he's not making a jot of sense.

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Post by PhilBB on Mon 14 Sep 2020, 4:18 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:

Hes talking leagues. Ie the aviva prem and the championship clubs with the welsh teams in it.

I know but that's not the topic. You should stop giving him oxygen, he's not making a jot of sense.[/quote]

It could be that everybody else can follow the conversation but you've taken the tactic of claiming it doesn't make sense. I mean, it clearly does make sense so you're writing this stuff just for effect. God knows why.

Anyway, I'm off. Pick this up later in the week.
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Post by Irish Londoner on Mon 14 Sep 2020, 4:20 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So distance is the factor. Ok I can get that. Better to be bottom under the english than the occasional away game to Dublin.

Ah, 'bottom under the English' is an interesting term when you consider that, potentially, Doncaster could be a team in this competition. Let's say it was two divisions of 10 - I'd doubt that all four Welsh teams would be in the first division, so you've got something with that silly jibe. I'd think that two of the Welsh four would have a strong chance of winning it, however, with the English salary cap as it presently is.

I've never met 7&1/2 but have been to Donny a few times as well as Yorkshire. Yorkshire are now completely bankrupt and will be lucky to survive in any form. Donny are a small well run club with a reasonable ground for the level they play at, but there's no way the ground or the squad are fit for Premiership rugby.

The only way Donny could even think if it is for a Nigel Wray type to come in and chuck money at it, which as far as I can tell is something that neither the club or the supporters want. It's a nice day out, they generally finish mid table and the rugby's pretty good.

So which of the two Welsh clubs you think can compete with Sarcens, Exeter, Bath and the rest ? Show your working......

Before we do that, do you now accept that your previous claims over salary caps was incorrect?

Fair enough outdated information - I gather that the WRU now pays the clubs rather than the players?

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Post by rugby racing and beer on Mon 14 Sep 2020, 4:25 pm

PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:I'll reiterate my point: the conference system has been a disaster in rugby whether that's Super Rugby or the Pro14. It only rewards the small pool of 'winners' - in this case NZ and Ireland. Everyone else has suffered: Argentina saw their national team become a laughing stock and their test players were earning less money than they were prior to the Jaguares. Australian rugby has gone down the pan and is circling the drain. Welsh rugby has dropped off a cliff and along with Scotland they are competing against the Irish who are not only in a tax haven in comparison to the UK but are competing against union-ran provinces that have completely wrapped up the league for their own continued success (most notably Leinster's, with particular focus on Europe). South Africa have seen revenues fall and their own players have vanished overseas, leaving room for politics to come surging back in and do its best to cripple the Boks. The Japanese saw that Super Rugby was doing very little for it and rightly left once they had gained the experience they needed from the Sunwolves: surprise, surprise, their own domestic league is now more attractive than Super Rugby.

Conference rugby doesn't work.

England would be stupid to kill their own league system out of blind trust of hedge fund money.

I feel like rugby is deliberately throwing itself off a cliff while pretending someone is down below waiting to soften the fall. It's very odd and comes from a desperation for money in order to keep and attract outside investment as well as provide a world class salary for rugby players who might otherwise be tempted by other pro sports. On the other hand, it's also just sheer incompetence by those running the game, which can be forgiven in the circumstances as rugby is lurching in to true professionalism with no small amount of damage done on the way.

Would you agree that the NFL style conference has yet to be tried, however?

On your point about the English league system - nobody is suggesting "killing" it so I'm not sure why you chose that word. But, yes, professional sport has a desperation for money. It's kind of the point of professional sport.

No. Super Rugby is clearly as close to the NFL as rugby could ever get. No single country has the resources to have an internal competition like the NFL. Not even England. The only viable option for a NFL-style competition is multinational and cross border competitions, like the Heineken Cup. That is not what is being discussed here we are discussing the idea of England having a conference system. Rotherham are not the Baltimore Ravens. Super Rugby failed everyone apart from NZ and even then it's failed them and they're bending over backwards to try to find a commercial replacement for what has been lost. Stong arming Australia didn't work so it's not looking good for them, they'll probably have to lose some money from somewhere, likely the NPC.

A conference system 'kills' a pyramid league. I would have thought having banged on about Wales in an England thread for long enough you would understand this well enough but perhaps you have no idea what you're talking about there either. Go and talk to Pontypridd fans how they feel about regional rugby and whether it's killed their club or not. Then do the same for Celtic Warriors or the Borders or Western Force. Ask Coventry fans, or Rotherham fans, or even Leeds/Yorkshire fans if they think their clubs are the same level of 'dead' as the aforementioned.

You're living in a fantasy world, Phil. And no, desperation for money is not a good thing, in sport or otherwise. Perhaps this is another thing you don't understand.

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Post by rugby racing and beer on Mon 14 Sep 2020, 4:30 pm

PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:

I didn't miss it at all. It's so ridiculous it's not worth responding to.

You're a 'no true Scotsman' about conferences, apparently, where the conference systems in Europe and the SH don't count because they haven't worked for your specific Welsh region.

You seem delusional, living in a fantasy land, oblivious about the difference between theory and practice.

Why are you warping a discussion about England to include your own myopic delusions about your Welsh region? England should do what is best for England, obviously, and that doesn't mean killing the best competition structure in club rugby for the sake of including Doncaster and Jersey. I have no idea why you're even talking about Wales tbh. As I said, you're incoherent and nonsenical.

Ok, no worries. I can see that following a train of thought results in you writing that kind of post.

I think someone needs to take your train out of commission, Phil. It's gone AWOL and needs to be derailed asap for the safety of everyone else.

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Post by rugby racing and beer on Mon 14 Sep 2020, 4:32 pm

PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:

Hes talking leagues. Ie the aviva prem and the championship clubs with the welsh teams in it.

I know but that's not the topic. You should stop giving him oxygen, he's not making a jot of sense.

It could be that everybody else can follow the conversation but you've taken the tactic of claiming it doesn't make sense. I mean, it clearly does make sense so you're writing this stuff just for effect. God knows why.[/quote]

No I'm afraid you dont make any sense.

You replied 'spot on' to someone saying that England should not under any circumstances have a conference system (a viewpoint I and others wholeheartedly agree with).

You need to read what you're actually writing, Phil. You're not making sense.

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Post by Brendan on Mon 14 Sep 2020, 8:09 pm

PhillBB as history has shown more money for Welsh teams doesn't make them always better.

Biggest Rugby Club in the UK in terms of income and fans not playing in the Premership is Ulster. They would be well placed to do well in the Premership if not hamstrung by the IRFU. They and Glasgow have been much more consistent in terms of fans and sustained performance than anything the Welsh have done. Scarlets had their two year flash in the pan.

Currently the 4 most stable and highest standard teams in the UK not in the Premership is Glasgow, Ulster, Edinburgh and Scarlets.

Ospreys almost went bust
Dragons had to be emergency purchased by the WRU
Blues asked the WRU if they wanted to agreed some financial help.

I also don't think the WRU would sign up to PRL terms and conditions for Union subsidies.

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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 9:20 am

Irish Londoner wrote:

Fair enough outdated information - I gather that the WRU now pays the clubs rather than the players?

It's always paid the clubs. Even the NDC players were paid by the clubs through a secondment scheme, not that there were many NDC players (thankfully).

So now that you can the English have dropped their cap, what makes you think the Welsh teams would not be able to compete at that level within the same league with the same broadcast revenue split?
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 9:24 am

Are ndcs available to help the likes of Gloucester sign welsh players? If so probably no issues but would have to be included within a cap.

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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 9:24 am

rugby racing and beer wrote:
No. Super Rugby is clearly as close to the NFL as rugby could ever get. No single country has the resources to have an internal competition like the NFL. Not even England. The only viable option for a NFL-style competition is multinational and cross border competitions, like the Heineken Cup. That is not what is being discussed here we are discussing the idea of England having a conference system. Rotherham are not the Baltimore Ravens. Super Rugby failed everyone apart from NZ and even then it's failed them and they're bending over backwards to try to find a commercial replacement for what has been lost. Stong arming Australia didn't work so it's not looking good for them, they'll probably have to lose some money from somewhere, likely the NPC.

A conference system 'kills' a pyramid league. I would have thought having banged on about Wales in an England thread for long enough you would understand this well enough but perhaps you have no idea what you're talking about there either. Go and talk to Pontypridd fans how they feel about regional rugby and whether it's killed their club or not. Then do the same for Celtic Warriors or the Borders or Western Force. Ask Coventry fans, or Rotherham fans, or even Leeds/Yorkshire fans if they think their clubs are the same level of 'dead' as the aforementioned.

You're living in a fantasy world, Phil. And no, desperation for money is not a good thing, in sport or otherwise. Perhaps this is another thing you don't understand.

As far as I'm aware, Super Rugby never operated on a conference system of the same make up as the NFL. It didn't have leagues of four teams, for just the first obvious difference.

Pontypridd RFC went bust in September 2003, mate. That's what killed that club.

I can see that the barrier to entry for pro rugby is the huge hole in your analysis. In fact, you've wilfully ignored it whilst trying to chuck abuse about, remembering that you started your rant about conferences with a claim that NFL teams went 'broke'. I think that comment put the marker down for your knowledge.
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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 9:24 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Are ndcs available to help the likes of Gloucester sign welsh players? If so probably no issues but would have to be included within a cap.

There are no NDCs any longer.

Please stop underlining, with each post, that you know next to nothing about Welsh rugby.
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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 9:26 am

rugby racing and beer wrote:
You need to read what you're actually writing, Phil. You're not making sense.

Ok, I'll try to make this as clear as possible.

There are TWO different subjects here:

1. Your claim that rugby has tried conferences. I've pointed out that it hasn't tried an NFL type conference. See? That's issue 1.
2. You dislike conferences. So do I. They are garbage.

See? Two different subjects.
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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 9:28 am

Brendan wrote:PhillBB as history has shown more money for Welsh teams doesn't make them always better.

Biggest Rugby Club in the UK in terms of income and fans not playing in the Premership is Ulster.  They would be well placed to do well in the Premership if not hamstrung by the IRFU.  They and Glasgow have been much more consistent in terms of fans and sustained performance than anything the Welsh have done.  Scarlets had their two year flash in the pan.

Currently the 4 most stable and highest standard teams in the UK not in the Premership is Glasgow, Ulster, Edinburgh and Scarlets.

Ospreys almost went bust
Dragons had to be emergency purchased by the WRU
Blues asked the WRU if they wanted to agreed some financial help.

I also don't think the WRU would sign up to PRL terms and conditions for Union subsidies.

I agree. Ulster should do well if not hamstrung by, erm, their owners.

Your claim on Glasgow's attendances are wrong, however.

You can't claim Union owned teams are 'stable'.

The WRU give significantly less overall to their pro clubs than the RFL does to PRL, so that claim is also nonsense.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 9:28 am

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Are ndcs available to help the likes of Gloucester sign welsh players? If so probably no issues but would have to be included within a cap.

There are no NDCs any longer.

Please stop underlining, with each post, that you know next to nothing about Welsh rugby.

Literally why I asked the question. If there are no longer payments to welsh players to play in wales cant see it's an issue. I mean it wont happen but that wouldnt cause an issue!

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 10:09 am

Another stupid question as I obviously need to build on my knowledge as you've said. Come across a bbc article on covid and theres a throwaway line say 'under a banding system introduced last year, the wru pays 80% of the salaries of the 38 top ranked players, with the players' regions contributing the remaining 20%'. That's from 8th april.

Is that correct?

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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 11:00 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Another stupid question as I obviously need to build on my knowledge as you've said. Come across a bbc article on covid and theres a throwaway line say 'under a banding system introduced last year, the wru pays 80% of the salaries of the 38 top ranked players, with the players' regions contributing the remaining 20%'. That's from 8th april.

Is that correct?

It's the payment system similar to the EPS.

The players are contracted to the clubs but the union contributes, as part of its payments, 80% of those wages. Other payments include academy work, limiting non-Welsh players and community work, in line with how the RFU pays its supply chain.

Sorry that it didn't work out as you'd hoped.
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Post by Brendan on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 11:06 am

PhillBB the thing that blows a hole in your argument is that the PRL must do everything by unanimous vote.  If an anglowelsh league or B&I League were to happen in order to get Sarries, Bath and Bristol on side you would need to get rid of the cap. The IRFU would never agree to a cap.

In regards  money Ulster and Leinster are held back by the IRFU and could increase funding.  Munster as large debts so can't spend the same (though they still can afford two WC winners)

Back in the day Welsh teams were the most sought after teams for the English.  Now only Scarlets hold any pull while Leinster, Munster, Ulster and Glasgow are all bigger pulls for English teams than the other 3 Welsh teams.

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Post by Brendan on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 11:12 am

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Another stupid question as I obviously need to build on my knowledge as you've said. Come across a bbc article on covid and theres a throwaway line say 'under a banding system introduced last year, the wru pays 80% of the salaries of the 38 top ranked players, with the players' regions contributing the remaining 20%'. That's from 8th april.

Is that correct?

It's the payment system similar to the EPS.

The players are contracted to the clubs but the union contributes, as part of its payments, 80% of those wages. Other payments include academy work, limiting non-Welsh players and community work, in line with how the RFU pays its supply chain.

Sorry that it didn't work out as you'd hoped.

I think you all find the EPS don't pay 80% of player wages but pays a set figure to the league who give the same amount to each club. If the RFU did pay 80% of the wages then Sarries would be well under the cap.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 11:14 am

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Another stupid question as I obviously need to build on my knowledge as you've said. Come across a bbc article on covid and theres a throwaway line say 'under a banding system introduced last year, the wru pays 80% of the salaries of the 38 top ranked players, with the players' regions contributing the remaining 20%'. That's from 8th april.

Is that correct?

It's the payment system similar to the EPS.

The players are contracted to the clubs but the union contributes, as part of its payments, 80% of those wages. Other payments include academy work, limiting non-Welsh players and community work, in line with how the RFU pays its supply chain.

Sorry that it didn't work out as you'd hoped.

So it's true. Are those 80% wages included or excluded from wag bill figures for the club? and are those wage payments available (or would they be available) to English clubs signing Welsh players?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 11:16 am

Brendan wrote:PhillBB the thing that blows a hole in your argument is that the PRL must do everything by unanimous vote.  If an anglowelsh league or B&I League were to happen in order to get Sarries, Bath and Bristol on side you would need to get rid of the cap.  The IRFU would never agree to a cap.

In regards  money Ulster and Leinster are held back by the IRFU and could increase funding.  Munster as large debts so can't spend the same (though they still can afford two WC winners)

Back in the day Welsh teams were the most sought after teams for the English.  Now only Scarlets hold any pull while Leinster, Munster, Ulster and Glasgow are all bigger pulls for English teams than the other 3 Welsh teams.

Quite true, and still the talk of a joint league would spell a fall in revenue for Europe so money becomes a factor again. and loss of power by English clubs.

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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 11:23 am

Brendan wrote:

I think you all find the EPS don't pay 80% of player wages but pays a set figure to the league who give the same amount to each club.  If the RFU did pay 80% of the wages then Sarries would be well under the cap.

I can't have explained myself clearly, it seems.

The WRU paid out £16.4m to the three independent clubs in the last annual report. This is the payment to the supply chain for the services rendered.

So, with regards to this new way of calculating the payments, part of that £16.4m would be used for the players identified in the top 38.

If you took an average salary of those 38 to be (for the sake of an example) £250k, that comes to a total of £9.5m. At 80%, you get to £7.6m.

Therefore, of the £16.4m, £7.6m is made up in this fashion

(Obviously this is just for the sake of an example as some of the 38 are Dragons players)
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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 11:24 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:

So it's true. Are those 80% wages included or excluded from wag bill figures for the club? and are those wage payments available (or would they be available) to English clubs signing Welsh players?

Of course they are in the wage figures for the clubs as the clubs pay 100% of the wages.

Let me know if the RFU make a payment to a Welsh club if they employ an English player. If not, why are you asking such daft questions?
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 11:27 am

According to the BBC article it says the WRU pay 80% of the top ranked 38 players wages; is that not correct?

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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 11:27 am

Brendan wrote:PhillBB the thing that blows a hole in your argument is that the PRL must do everything by unanimous vote.  If an anglowelsh league or B&I League were to happen in order to get Sarries, Bath and Bristol on side you would need to get rid of the cap.  The IRFU would never agree to a cap.

In regards  money Ulster and Leinster are held back by the IRFU and could increase funding.  Munster as large debts so can't spend the same (though they still can afford two WC winners)

Back in the day Welsh teams were the most sought after teams for the English.  Now only Scarlets hold any pull while Leinster, Munster, Ulster and Glasgow are all bigger pulls for English teams than the other 3 Welsh teams.

Munster's debts are owed to the IRFU and paid back at €100,000 a year, so why are mentioning Munster? That's a complete red herring.

You've also ignored that CVC are in control of the destination of all of this and you've ignored that single ownership of multiple entrants is something PRL are steadfastly against. PRL has sold 91% of the company that generates income to CVC.

I'm not sure what you consider a "pull" to be or quite why you've forgotten how we got to the EPRC from ERC.
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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 11:28 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:According to the BBC article it says the WRU pay 80% of the top ranked 38 players wages; is that not correct?

I've already explained that twice. Would you like for me to do it again or would it better for you to interact with the posts in which the workings out are shown to you?
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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 11:28 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Quite true, and still the talk of a joint league would spell a fall in revenue for Europe so money becomes a factor again. and loss of power by English clubs.

Why would it do that?

Does the existence of the PrO League cause a fall in revenue for "Europe"?

Please explain
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 11:35 am

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:According to the BBC article it says the WRU pay 80% of the top ranked 38 players wages; is that not correct?

I've already explained that twice. Would you like for me to do it again or would it better for you to interact with the posts in which the workings out are shown to you?

From your explanation you seem to suggest the BBC are incorrect? They've posted that same thing twice this year as far as I've seen, once in April and then again in June. Just seems odd that they haven't corrected it if it was incorrect. have to ask where you've seen your version?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 11:36 am

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Quite true, and still the talk of a joint league would spell a fall in revenue for Europe so money becomes a factor again. and loss of power by English clubs.

Why would it do that?

Does the existence of the PrO League cause a fall in revenue for "Europe"?

Please explain

Normally you have 3 leagues coming together for a comp, next thing you only have 2 and reduced teams. its going to have less glamour as it's less of a new comp and more a new league plus the French.

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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 11:39 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:According to the BBC article it says the WRU pay 80% of the top ranked 38 players wages; is that not correct?

I've already explained that twice. Would you like for me to do it again or would it better for you to interact with the posts in which the workings out are shown to you?

From your explanation you seem to suggest the BBC are incorrect? They've posted that same thing twice this year as far as I've seen, once in April and then again in June. Just seems odd that they haven't corrected it if it was incorrect. have to ask where you've seen your version?

It's only 'incorrect' if you read it in a certain way. Here's a piece you might enjoy, however, as it gives the clarification of who holds the contracts and how the payments work out, exactly in line with how I explained it above. Sorry

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-rugbys-elite-38-players-18763107
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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 11:41 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Quite true, and still the talk of a joint league would spell a fall in revenue for Europe so money becomes a factor again. and loss of power by English clubs.

Why would it do that?

Does the existence of the PrO League cause a fall in revenue for "Europe"?

Please explain

Normally you have 3 leagues coming together for a comp, next thing you only have 2 and reduced teams. its going to have less glamour as it's less of a new comp and more a new league plus the French.

Why would there be 2 leagues if the Welsh left the "single ownership of multiple entrants" league to join a two division English set up?

Same number of leagues, so your point holds no water.

Furthermore, you've assumed that CVC's business model of aggregating rights will fail. What's your expertise in this field so we can weigh that up against theirs?
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 11:44 am

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:According to the BBC article it says the WRU pay 80% of the top ranked 38 players wages; is that not correct?

I've already explained that twice. Would you like for me to do it again or would it better for you to interact with the posts in which the workings out are shown to you?

From your explanation you seem to suggest the BBC are incorrect? They've posted that same thing twice this year as far as I've seen, once in April and then again in June. Just seems odd that they haven't corrected it if it was incorrect. have to ask where you've seen your version?

It's only 'incorrect' if you read it in a certain way. Here's a piece you might enjoy, however, as it gives the clarification of who holds the contracts and how the payments work out, exactly in line with how I explained it above. Sorry

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-rugbys-elite-38-players-18763107

No need to apologise, thanks for that. It comfirms that the WRU pay 80% of salaries of the top 38 ranked players. That's going to cause issues I'd have thought.

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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 11:51 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:

No need to apologise, thanks for that. It comfirms that the WRU pay 80% of salaries of the top 38 ranked players. That's going to cause issues I'd have thought.

No, it doesn't confirm that at all. It notes "contributes"

It even includes this, for the difficult of understanding, "The 38 are all home-based and they remain contracted to the regions"

And this, for the even more difficult of understanding, "The 80 per cent contribution from the Union makes up tier one of the overall pot of money available for the professional game"

You know, just as I explained above.
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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 11:52 am

https://twitter.com/simonrug/status/1304135914273280000?s=20
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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 11:53 am

https://twitter.com/simonrug/status/1295123062652887040?s=20
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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 11:53 am

https://twitter.com/simonrug/status/1291070922145902596?s=20
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 11:57 am

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:

No need to apologise, thanks for that. It comfirms that the WRU pay 80% of salaries of the top 38 ranked players. That's going to cause issues I'd have thought.

No, it doesn't confirm that at all. It notes "contributes"

It even includes this, for the difficult of understanding, "The 38 are all home-based and they remain contracted to the regions"

And this, for the even more difficult of understanding, "The 80 per cent contribution from the Union makes up tier one of the overall pot of money available for the professional game"

You know, just as I explained above.

Absolutely. Tat would have to stop or be extended to other clubs in the league like the Leinsters or Exeters I'd imagine. gets messy pretty quickly.

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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 11:59 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Absolutely. Tat would have to stop or be extended to other clubs in the league like the Leinsters or Exeters I'd imagine. gets messy pretty quickly.

I'm at the point where I'm hoping your deliberate woeful misinterpretation is just an act.

It's a childlike act that deprives the board of traffic and debate, but there we go. As long as you get a kick from it.
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Post by Brendan on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 12:11 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Brendan wrote:PhillBB the thing that blows a hole in your argument is that the PRL must do everything by unanimous vote.  If an anglowelsh league or B&I League were to happen in order to get Sarries, Bath and Bristol on side you would need to get rid of the cap.  The IRFU would never agree to a cap.

In regards  money Ulster and Leinster are held back by the IRFU and could increase funding.  Munster as large debts so can't spend the same (though they still can afford two WC winners)

Back in the day Welsh teams were the most sought after teams for the English.  Now only Scarlets hold any pull while Leinster, Munster, Ulster and Glasgow are all bigger pulls for English teams than the other 3 Welsh teams.

Munster's debts are owed to the IRFU and paid back at €100,000 a year, so why are mentioning Munster? That's a complete red herring.

You've also ignored that CVC are in control of the destination of all of this and you've ignored that single ownership of multiple entrants is something PRL are steadfastly against. PRL has sold 91% of the company that generates income to CVC.

I'm not sure what you consider a "pull" to be or quite why you've forgotten how we got to the EPRC from ERC.

So the PRL sold 91% of what to CVC as that is the key.  How do the broadcasting rights compare to payments by the RFU to the PRL.

The European fight was over how big each market was.  It is debatable if BT or any other TV company would pay more for this AngloWelsh league as they do for the Premiership.  As you and others have pointed out Soccer is quiet popular in Wales so would they sell more subs in the UK.
Adding Ireland would however open up a new market for both sponsers and TV.
Of the teams that have folded or changed ownership most have been private owner
IRFU no change
SRU closed Broaders
FIR Aronini private owned closed
Wales Warriors privately own closed (WRU refused to take over) Dragons taken over by WRU or would have closed. Ospreys almost closed because was hard to sell.
England & France plenty private companies folded.

Market Size.
GDP
Rep. Ireland $382.5b
Scotland $202b
Wales $94.7b
N Ireland $35.5b

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