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Should the top two English leagues be merged?

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 16 Jun 2020, 6:45 pm

First topic message reminder :

Ruck.co.uk have put together a rather pie in the sky piece about league reform in England.

https://www.ruck.co.uk/what-would-the-premiership-look-like-if-it-was-split-into-conferences-like-the-nfl/

It suggests splitting the top two divisions into 5 NFL style conferences. 

NORTHERN DIVISION
Doncaster Knights
Newcastle Falcons
Sale Sharks
Yorkshire Carnegie

LONDON DIVISION
Ealing Trailfinders
Harlequins
London Irish
Saracens

MIDLANDS 1
Bedford Blues
Leicester Tigers
Northampton Saints
Nottingham

MIDLANDS 2
Bristol Bears
Gloucester
Wasps
Worcester Warriors

SOUTHERN DIVISION
Bath
Cornish Pirates
Exeter Chiefs
Jersey

The issues emerge immediately as outraged Bristol fans want to know why they are a Midlands team and Bath are a Southern one. Midlands 2 would be much better re-badged as West.

Yorkshire/Leeds or whatever their name is this week obviously aren't fit to enter and Coventry would probably be annoyed by being overlooked after finishing last season on 4th. Not sure the Prem teams would be keen on sharing the television coverage pie but more games should mean more coverage options and maybe some shared coverage.

The West Country teams would probably want to be in the same group for derby game purposes but this would make their conference extremely harsh.

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Post by Guest Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:14 pm

PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:

I'm sorry but this is just fantasy, Phil. Total fantasy. None of the problems as you see them disappear with a Friday night or Sunday afternoon trip from Llanelli to Exeter (or London, or Coventry). You're living in a dream world and using Bristol to Cardiff as your model. Oh dear.

When was the last time you drove down to Exeter, out of interest? It would be good to hear you really flesh out 'doable'.

Of course they do. For starters, look at the number of Scarlets fans at the last Rag Doll game in Bath.

Llanelli to Exeter is about 3 hours. That's more than doable on a Friday evening or Sunday afternoon.

I went to the Cardiff game in Exeter a couple of years ago and went to my cousin's funeral in Exeter last year. It's not a long journey for an adult.

Hahaha. Good luck getting from Llanelli to Exeter in 3 hours! On a Friday night through the Brynglas tunnel? You are delusional. The vast majority of games between English and Welsh clubs would require overnight accommodation or travelling in to the early hours to return home (if you have found a place to park) if you decide to attend a game under your own steam. Given that

The simple matter is that the geographical argument doesn't make sense. Welsh fans aren't even travelling from Newport to Cardiff anymore. They're not even turning up to their home stadia. Playing English clubs isn't going to solve anything for Wales and - as if we really needed to restate the point - offer almost nothing to the English when you consider the owners of Bristol, Saracens (until recently), Bath etc. want to start rapidly increase expenditure and including 4 Welsh regions, 3 of which are on their knees financially, within a league where players are already overstretched and overplayed (leading to injuries, lower quality product etc, bigger squads/more rotation) offers nothing in that regard.

I think I'm discussing this stupid pie in the sky point, anyway. I think you're getting some kind of kick out of imagining an Anglo Welsh tournament and playing along and humouring you isn't helping. I think you need to get back in to the real world.

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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:16 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:The vast majority of games between English and Welsh clubs would require overnight accommodation or travelling in to the early hours to return home (if you have found a place to park) if you decide to attend a game under your own steam.

This is an unusual take on the situation as a) you don't know when such games would kick off and b) you seem to think that returning home in the early hours (I guess of a Saturday morning) would be problem.

Contrast this with a Pembroke to Rosslare ferry and a drive to Dublin. The Ferry alone takes 5 hours.

This is a really strange hill you've chosen to die on.
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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:17 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:
The simple matter is that the geographical argument doesn't make sense.

Yet you used the argument earlier in this thread.

So why the flip-flop now?
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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:17 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:

So you want national leagues, except for Welsh clubs who will play in the English league?

OK apart from the geography argument, what do the Welsh bring to this party - I'm a London Irish supporter so tell me what adding three Welsh teams to the Premiership will do for my club which means they'll be better off than in the current situation?

And we've reached this part of the argument again: none of this will happen unless CVC wish it to happen and, if CVC wish it to happen, that means there will be more money for all involved.

It's that simple.

You accuse me of making things up. Should the CVC demand it, it's still down to the teams. It also doesn't mean that there will be more money, certainly in terms of the share for the English it'll more likely close the gap between them and the Welsh not great. It means that some English clubs who are in the prem still have the threat of relegation which they want to remove. It also threatens Europe. And means the PRL would have to share the power. But and its an important but, you'll get to travel to Bristol once a year.

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Post by Guest Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:17 pm

PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:
It is an argument against the Pro14's cross border competition. Why on earth you'd think that the negative of one thing necessarily means the perfect positive for something else is beyond me to answer: it certainly isn't an argument in favour of an Anglo Welsh competition any more than it is an argument for an internal Welsh competition or an internal English competition.

Perhaps you haven't travelled very far in life but there is a border between England and Wales.

Of course it is an argument in favour - as you wrote, national leagues. Your words.

Again, I'm going to have to ask - do you know there's a border between Wales and England? Do you understand what that means?

Should I post a picture of my British passport or have you taken enough ridicule (it's up there with your NFL claim) for shooting yourself in the foot?

So you have a problem travelling to Dubling but not Belfast? How odd. Given that Ulster Rugby is a far more attractive prospect for any English team than any region bar possibly the Scarlets at this stage, your use of the term 'shooting yourself in the foot' keeps coming back to haunt you. I don't think you know what it means, for starters, because you keep misusing; but you're also dangerously close to doing it yourself.

You seem to be arguing for British countries to play in a cross border competition. Something like Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland playing together.

That sounds quite reasonable tbh considering the standing of each country.

Foot = blown to sh1t.

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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:19 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:Welsh fans aren't even travelling from Newport to Cardiff anymore. They're not even turning up to their home stadia. Playing English clubs isn't going to solve anything for Wales and - as if we really needed to restate the point - offer almost nothing to the English when you consider the owners of Bristol, Saracens (until recently), Bath etc. want to start rapidly increase expenditure and including 4 Welsh regions, 3 of which are on their knees financially, within a league where players are already overstretched and overplayed (leading to injuries, lower quality product etc, bigger squads/more rotation) offers nothing in that regard.

I think I'm discussing this stupid pie in the sky point, anyway. I think you're getting some kind of kick out of imagining an Anglo Welsh tournament and playing along and humouring you isn't helping. I think you need to get back in to the real world.

First two sentences = two lies.

Third sentence ignores the PRL decision to lower the salary cap.

Third sentence ignores the two division element that would reduce 'overplaying'.

And then some childlike attempt at insults.

Wow.
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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:21 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:
So you have a problem travelling to Dubling but not Belfast? How odd. Given that Ulster Rugby is a far more attractive prospect for any English team than any region bar possibly the Scarlets at this stage, your use of the term 'shooting yourself in the foot' keeps coming back to haunt you. I don't think you know what it means, for starters, because you keep misusing; but you're also dangerously close to doing it yourself.

You seem to be arguing for British countries to play in a cross border competition. Something like Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland playing together.

That sounds quite reasonable tbh considering the standing of each country.

Foot = blown to sh1t.

Ulster once in a season wouldn't be a bad thing. It certainly is significantly better than 4 trips to Ireland, 2 to Italy and an unknown number to South Africa.

"Standing of each country" seems to be another arbitrary phrase that you've tried to apply.

Remind me again, of which club are you a season ticket holder?
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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:22 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
You accuse me of making things up. Should the CVC demand it, it's still down to the teams. It also doesn't mean that there will be more money, certainly in terms of the share for the English it'll more likely close the gap between them and the Welsh not great. It means that some English clubs who are in the prem still have the threat of relegation which they want to remove. It also threatens Europe. And means the PRL would have to share the power. But and its an important but, you'll get to travel to Bristol once a year.

They won't have the relegation to a league in which they will lose millions of pounds a year, which is the real threat of relegation.

It doesn't threaten Europe.

PRL already share the power - with CVC.

I can travel to Bristol for every game if I want to. Remember?
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Post by Guest Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:24 pm

PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:

Except the reality has borne that out to be a total fantasy. The Scarlets required massive financial help from the WRU about a decade ago. The Dragons have been taken over by the WRU just to remain in business and 'in competition' within a ringfenced competition where they have been the whipping boys for 15 years. Plenty of businesses, regions, clubs have gone out of business as a result of trying to compete in a ringfenced competition instead of being allowed the very natural result of failure within a league system: relegation and restructuring of the business to compete at a lower level.

The fact you don't seem to grasp this is baffling, truly baffling.

Sorry, when did the Scarlets take financial help from the WRU a decade ago? Do tell. Please provide details.

Name me the "plenty of businesses, regions, clubs" that "have gone out of business as a result of trying to compete in a ringfenced competition"

1. The £2m that the WRU helped the region facilitate from Tim Griffiths? Perhaps you don't remember? Tut tut, lazy...

2. Borders, Celtic Warriors, Aironi. Did you bother to actually read my comment? Tut tut, lazy...

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:26 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
You accuse me of making things up. Should the CVC demand it, it's still down to the teams. It also doesn't mean that there will be more money, certainly in terms of the share for the English it'll more likely close the gap between them and the Welsh not great. It means that some English clubs who are in the prem still have the threat of relegation which they want to remove. It also threatens Europe. And means the PRL would have to share the power. But and its an important but, you'll get to travel to Bristol once a year.

They won't have the relegation to a league in which they will lose millions of pounds a year, which is the real threat of relegation.

It doesn't threaten Europe.

PRL already share the power - with CVC.

I can travel to Bristol for every game if I want to. Remember?

A second league would of course be less attractive to sponsors and Tv and will thus have less money. This is what the English clubs now want to avoid. It would threaten Europe as its brings with it less new fixtures. PRL don't share power with the Welsh. Why don't you just start supporting Bristol, it would be less repetitive to see the same argument from you that we've seen for years.

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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:27 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:

1. The £2m that the WRU helped the region facilitate from Tim Griffiths? Perhaps you don't remember? Tut tut, lazy...

2. Borders, Celtic Warriors, Aironi. Did you bother to actually read my comment? Tut tut, lazy...

Sorry, I'll need a little more on claim 1. How did the WRU help facilitate anything from Tim Griffiths, when did this happen and how does it meet your claim of "financial help from the WRU" if it came from Griffiths?

2. So you've listed 3 teams. How does that stack up against West Hartlepool, London Welsh and Richmond? Looks pretty even to me.
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Post by Irish Londoner Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:28 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:

So you want national leagues, except for Welsh clubs who will play in the English league?

OK apart from the geography argument, what do the Welsh bring to this party - I'm a London Irish supporter so tell me what adding three Welsh teams to the Premiership will do for my club which means they'll be better off than in the current situation?

And we've reached this part of the argument again: none of this will happen unless CVC wish it to happen and, if CVC wish it to happen, that means there will be more money for all involved.

It's that simple.

Actually it's more a case of none of this will happen unless CVC come up with a long term plan to show how it will work, the clubs and unions agree to it, and CVC are able to find even more money for a game that's financially dying on it's feet, has no idea when spectators are going to be in grounds, and when TV companies are cutting costs including paying for TV rights and advertising revenues are dropping off a cliff.

This would have been a big ask before CV19 hit, right now I can see CVC going "here's your money back lads, we're out of here"...

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Post by Guest Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:28 pm

PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:The vast majority of games between English and Welsh clubs would require overnight accommodation or travelling in to the early hours to return home (if you have found a place to park) if you decide to attend a game under your own steam.  

This is an unusual take on the situation as a) you don't know when such games would kick off and b) you seem to think that returning home in the early hours (I guess of a Saturday morning) would be problem.

Contrast this with a Pembroke to Rosslare ferry and a drive to Dublin. The Ferry alone takes 5 hours.

This is a really strange hill you've chosen to die on.

Oh my mistake. In this fantasy league, of course all games would return to being 2:30 Saturday afternoon kick offs so we could all be back and home in our mansions with our feet up to watch Match of The Day, with a 9/10 lying next to us and another handsome profit from the races...

Should the top two English leagues be merged? - Page 8 PoliticalSameKoodoo-size_restricted

There's no dying here, Phil. You seem to think that people will attend games due to geographical location. Clearly they don't. The Blues can't even fill out the Arms Park despite the region having a catchment area that encompasses a huge percentage of Wales' total population.

It's inane and you know it. I think you're stood on a hill on your own making 'pew pew' noises and swinging an imaginary sword around. How embarrassing.

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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:29 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
A second league would of course be less attractive to sponsors and Tv and will thus have less money. This is what the English clubs now want to avoid. It would threaten Europe as its brings with it less new fixtures. PRL don't share power with the Welsh. Why don't you just start supporting Bristol, it would be less repetitive to see the same argument from you that we've seen for years.

It doesn't bring 'less new fixtures' if one bunch of teams moves from League A to League B, because it opens up 'new fixtures' for the teams from their old leagues. That's simply mathematical Love sacks that you've written.

As for two leagues, it is more than possible that total income across both would be divided equally as it is via EPCR, so that one holds no water either.

There you go again with the 'give up' attitude. Why don't you give up attempting to be deliberately contrary?
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Post by Irish Londoner Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:30 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
You accuse me of making things up. Should the CVC demand it, it's still down to the teams. It also doesn't mean that there will be more money, certainly in terms of the share for the English it'll more likely close the gap between them and the Welsh not great. It means that some English clubs who are in the prem still have the threat of relegation which they want to remove. It also threatens Europe. And means the PRL would have to share the power. But and its an important but, you'll get to travel to Bristol once a year.

They won't have the relegation to a league in which they will lose millions of pounds a year, which is the real threat of relegation.

It doesn't threaten Europe.

PRL already share the power - with CVC.

I can travel to Bristol for every game if I want to. Remember?

Isn't the problem that most Welsh fans won't travel from Cardiff to Newport never mind going to Bristol?

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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:30 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:

There's no dying here, Phil. You seem to think that people will attend games due to geographical location. Clearly they don't. The Blues can't even fill out the Arms Park despite the region having a catchment area that encompasses a huge percentage of Wales' total population.

It's inane and you know it. I think you're stood on a hill on your own making 'pew pew' noises and swinging an imaginary sword around. How embarrassing.

Funny how Cardiff sold out the Arms Park when they played Saracens.

Yours is a really odd posting style. How are you on Maritime Law?
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Post by Guest Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:31 pm

PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:
The simple matter is that the geographical argument doesn't make sense.  

Yet you used the argument earlier in this thread.

So why the flip-flop now?

No I didn't. You're just too stupid and/or dishonest to understand that stating the need to limit crossborder competitions during a pandemic isn't the same as 'I agree with whatever Phil says "spot on" to'.

It must be terrifying being you. Wow.


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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:32 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:

Isn't the problem that most Welsh fans won't travel from Cardiff to Newport never mind going to Bristol?

Where do you get that idea from?
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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:32 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:
The simple matter is that the geographical argument doesn't make sense.  

Yet you used the argument earlier in this thread.

So why the flip-flop now?

No I didn't. You're just too stupid and/or dishonest to understand that stating the need to limit crossborder competitions during a pandemic isn't the same as 'I agree with whatever Phil says "spot on" to'.

It must be terrifying being you. Wow.


Another blatant lie. I see a pattern here.
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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:34 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:
Actually it's more a case of none of this will happen unless CVC come up with a long term plan to show how it will work, the clubs and unions agree to it, and CVC are able to find even more money for a game that's financially dying on it's feet, has no idea when spectators are going to be in grounds, and when TV companies are cutting costs including paying for TV rights and advertising revenues are dropping off a cliff.

This would have been a big ask before CV19 hit, right now I can see CVC going "here's your money back lads, we're out of here"...

Amazon seemed happy to enter the market place at the minute, so maybe your doom and gloom is misplaced. And we can double that thought for when the TV contracts are up for renewal which, of course, should be well post Covid.

I think that you're grossly underestimating CVC.
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Post by Guest Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:34 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
You accuse me of making things up. Should the CVC demand it, it's still down to the teams. It also doesn't mean that there will be more money, certainly in terms of the share for the English it'll more likely close the gap between them and the Welsh not great. It means that some English clubs who are in the prem still have the threat of relegation which they want to remove. It also threatens Europe. And means the PRL would have to share the power. But and its an important but, you'll get to travel to Bristol once a year.

They won't have the relegation to a league in which they will lose millions of pounds a year, which is the real threat of relegation.

It doesn't threaten Europe.

PRL already share the power - with CVC.

I can travel to Bristol for every game if I want to. Remember?

Isn't the problem that most Welsh fans won't travel from Cardiff to Newport never mind going to Bristol?

Precisely.

I'm done humouring him. It's clearly not good having this hypothetical fantasy world he's created validated, even if it's just other people trying to convince him he's deluded. I'm sure that's a diagnostic trait, isn't it? Something like seeing out confrontation in order to bolster your own thoughts/feelings/convictions? It's basically like those Christians who picket soldiers' funerals - it's the kind of mindset that cannot live without the kind of conflict that produces an emotional response that 'clears the mind'. If you're in a constant state of argumentation, then it really shuts down parts of the analytical mind and just puts you in to 'defence mode'.

Phil, I'd suggest laying off the arguments for a while. Maybe delete twitter. Try meditation. You'll find that reality is much better and much fuller a place to live than this delusional Anglo-Welsh world you've created.

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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:36 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:

Precisely.

I'm done humouring him. It's clearly not good having this hypothetical fantasy world he's created validated, even if it's just other people trying to convince him he's deluded. I'm sure that's a diagnostic trait, isn't it? Something like seeing out confrontation in order to bolster your own thoughts/feelings/convictions? It's basically like those Christians who picket soldiers' funerals - it's the kind of mindset that cannot live without the kind of conflict that produces an emotional response that 'clears the mind'. If you're in a constant state of argumentation, then it really shuts down parts of the analytical mind and just puts you in to 'defence mode'.

Phil, I'd suggest laying off the arguments for a while. Maybe delete twitter. Try meditation. You'll find that reality is much better and much fuller a place to live than this delusional Anglo-Welsh world you've created.

Well, I guess its easier to write that kind of stuff than to answer questions about Tim Griffiths.

How's your Maritime Law career going?
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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:39 pm

So, for those of you who don't know, this is the story of Tim Griffiths' interest in Llanelli rugby:

https://www.tivysideadvertiser.co.uk/sport/1057155.millionaire-tim-steps-in-to-save-scarlets/

Do you notice how the article says nothing about any WRU involvement?

Griffiths did, however, spend his own money (subsequently written off). So here we have the money spent by Griffiths being deliberately misrepresented (i.e. lied about) by "RRB" as "WRU financial help".

That kind of lying rather taints a poster's reputation.
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Post by Guest Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:41 pm

Maritime Law? How about defamation for repeatedly calling me a liar on a public forum, Philip?

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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:46 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:Maritime Law? How about defamation for repeatedly calling me a liar on a public forum, Philip?

Is that going to go as well as your action against Wales Online?

I've pointed out your lies. You have the option of disproving me.

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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:49 pm

p.s. Tim Grififths wasn't appointed as a Director of the Scarlets until February 2007 and his loan was only £600,000

So that's zero "financial help from the WRU" which was the poster's wholly inaccurate claim.

He's completely fabricated it.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:50 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
A second league would of course be less attractive to sponsors and Tv and will thus have less money. This is what the English clubs now want to avoid. It would threaten Europe as its brings with it less new fixtures. PRL don't share power with the Welsh. Why don't you just start supporting Bristol, it would be less repetitive to see the same argument from you that we've seen for years.

It doesn't bring 'less new fixtures' if one bunch of teams moves from League A to League B, because it opens up 'new fixtures' for the teams from their old leagues. That's simply mathematical Love sacks that you've written.

As for two leagues, it is more than possible that total income across both would be divided equally as it is via EPCR, so that one holds no water either.

There you go again with the 'give up' attitude. Why don't you give up attempting to be deliberately contrary?

Again its you who has given up on the Pro 14, sounds as if you've never given it a fair shot always pining for the English. Why on earth would the 2nd division make the same money as the premier league?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:52 pm

PhilBB wrote:p.s. Tim Grififths wasn't appointed as a Director of the Scarlets until February 2007 and his loan was only £600,000

So that's zero "financial help from the WRU" which was the poster's wholly inaccurate claim.

He's completely fabricated it.

Haven't all the teams now got some help in the form of loans?

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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:54 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Again its you who has given up on the Pro 14, sounds as if you've never given it a fair shot always pining for the English. Why on earth would the 2nd division make the same money as the premier league?

As somebody who has held a season ticket for each year Cardiff have played in the PrO'14 at CAP, your first sentence is as ignorant as it is stupid.

Your question is answered by the model ALL of the clubs agreed to for EPCR.
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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 3:55 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Haven't all the teams now got some help in the form of loans?

The WRU frequently offers short term accounting loans throughout a season as payments are often slow from the competition income. That's a cashflow boost for moneys contractually due regardless (until the new contract was signed).

So that depends on how you wish to view the role of the WRU in all of this - as a money handler or as a paymaster.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 18 Sep 2020, 4:05 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:

Again its you who has given up on the Pro 14, sounds as if you've never given it a fair shot always pining for the English. Why on earth would the 2nd division make the same money as the premier league?

As somebody who has held a season ticket for each year Cardiff have played in the PrO'14 at CAP, your first sentence is as ignorant as it is stupid.

Your question is answered by the model ALL of the clubs agreed to for EPCR.

But this is about a second division. A lower standard. Its the Championship with the Welsh in it.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 18 Sep 2020, 4:06 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:

Haven't all the teams now got some help in the form of loans?

The WRU frequently offers short term accounting loans throughout a season as payments are often slow from the competition income. That's a cashflow boost for moneys contractually due regardless (until the new contract was signed).

So that depends on how you wish to view the role of the WRU in all of this - as a money handler or as a paymaster.

Or digging them out of a whole everyone is suffering from, even the English and Irish.

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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 4:10 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:

Again its you who has given up on the Pro 14, sounds as if you've never given it a fair shot always pining for the English. Why on earth would the 2nd division make the same money as the premier league?

As somebody who has held a season ticket for each year Cardiff have played in the PrO'14 at CAP, your first sentence is as ignorant as it is stupid.

Your question is answered by the model ALL of the clubs agreed to for EPCR.

But this is about a second division. A lower standard. Its the Championship with the Welsh in it.

yes, that's one option. 3 x PRL, 4 x Welsh, 3 x the best Championship clubs
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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 4:11 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Or digging them out of a whole everyone is suffering from, even the English and Irish.

No, no, no. This is separate from Covid.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 18 Sep 2020, 4:23 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:

Again its you who has given up on the Pro 14, sounds as if you've never given it a fair shot always pining for the English. Why on earth would the 2nd division make the same money as the premier league?

As somebody who has held a season ticket for each year Cardiff have played in the PrO'14 at CAP, your first sentence is as ignorant as it is stupid.

Your question is answered by the model ALL of the clubs agreed to for EPCR.

But this is about a second division. A lower standard. Its the Championship with the Welsh in it.

yes, that's one option. 3 x PRL, 4 x Welsh, 3 x the best Championship clubs

And a second division will not make the same as the prem. And throws some of the clubs who want a ring fenced comp in a 2nd division.its a no go from the current view of the english clubs.

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Post by Irish Londoner Fri 18 Sep 2020, 4:39 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:

Again its you who has given up on the Pro 14, sounds as if you've never given it a fair shot always pining for the English. Why on earth would the 2nd division make the same money as the premier league?

As somebody who has held a season ticket for each year Cardiff have played in the PrO'14 at CAP, your first sentence is as ignorant as it is stupid.

Your question is answered by the model ALL of the clubs agreed to for EPCR.

But this is about a second division. A lower standard. Its the Championship with the Welsh in it.

yes, that's one option. 3 x PRL, 4 x Welsh, 3 x the best Championship clubs

But Phil you can't have 4 Welsh clubs as one of them is owned by the WRU and you keep saying that Union owned clubs won't be allowed into this new league.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 18 Sep 2020, 4:51 pm

I've got the perfect solution. The prem is ring fenced and the welsh clubs go into the championship. I'll buy phil a pint when Cardiff visit donny.

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Post by PhilBB Wed 23 Sep 2020, 8:45 am

https://www.business-live.co.uk/regional-development/new-boss-welsh-rugby-british-18979626

I'll leave this here

Have fun, all.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 23 Sep 2020, 8:54 am

PhilBB wrote:https://www.business-live.co.uk/regional-development/new-boss-welsh-rugby-british-18979626

I'll leave this here

Have fun, all.

So nothing new then other than the WRU open to pay per view on Wales matches.

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Post by PhilBB Wed 23 Sep 2020, 9:31 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:https://www.business-live.co.uk/regional-development/new-boss-welsh-rugby-british-18979626

I'll leave this here

Have fun, all.

So nothing new then other than the WRU open to pay per view on Wales matches.

Other than the WRU CEO noting a B&I League is an option of CVC.

Come on, don't play this game any longer. Anybody with a comprehension of basic English can read that article and see that your take on it moves beyond contrariness into deliberate dishonesty.
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Post by PhilBB Wed 23 Sep 2020, 9:31 am

Irish Londoner wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:

Again its you who has given up on the Pro 14, sounds as if you've never given it a fair shot always pining for the English. Why on earth would the 2nd division make the same money as the premier league?

As somebody who has held a season ticket for each year Cardiff have played in the PrO'14 at CAP, your first sentence is as ignorant as it is stupid.

Your question is answered by the model ALL of the clubs agreed to for EPCR.

But this is about a second division. A lower standard. Its the Championship with the Welsh in it.

yes, that's one option. 3 x PRL, 4 x Welsh, 3 x the best Championship clubs

But Phil you can't have 4 Welsh clubs as one of them is owned by the WRU and you keep saying that Union owned clubs won't be allowed into this new league.

You're not up to date with the news?

It'll either be sold post-Covid or shut.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 23 Sep 2020, 9:40 am

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:https://www.business-live.co.uk/regional-development/new-boss-welsh-rugby-british-18979626

I'll leave this here

Have fun, all.

So nothing new then other than the WRU open to pay per view on Wales matches.

Other than the WRU CEO noting a B&I League is an option of CVC.

Come on, don't play this game any longer. Anybody with a comprehension of basic English can read that article and see that your take on it moves beyond contrariness into deliberate dishonesty.

What's new about that? Been talked about by Welshmen and women for years.

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Post by PhilBB Wed 23 Sep 2020, 9:46 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:https://www.business-live.co.uk/regional-development/new-boss-welsh-rugby-british-18979626

I'll leave this here

Have fun, all.

So nothing new then other than the WRU open to pay per view on Wales matches.

Other than the WRU CEO noting a B&I League is an option of CVC.

Come on, don't play this game any longer. Anybody with a comprehension of basic English can read that article and see that your take on it moves beyond contrariness into deliberate dishonesty.

What's new about that? Been talked about by Welshmen and women for years.

Earlier in the thread you asked for proof from the WRU that such a league was a possibility. I told you one source, you refused to accept it because it wasn't "official".

Now you've had it officially confirmed. If it was "nothing new", as you now seem to claim, you wouldn't have asked for 'official' proof earlier in the thread.

So drop the contrary wind up act, you're not good enough to carry it out.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 23 Sep 2020, 10:05 am

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:https://www.business-live.co.uk/regional-development/new-boss-welsh-rugby-british-18979626

I'll leave this here

Have fun, all.

So nothing new then other than the WRU open to pay per view on Wales matches.

Other than the WRU CEO noting a B&I League is an option of CVC.

Come on, don't play this game any longer. Anybody with a comprehension of basic English can read that article and see that your take on it moves beyond contrariness into deliberate dishonesty.

What's new about that? Been talked about by Welshmen and women for years.

Earlier in the thread you asked for proof from the WRU that such a league was a possibility. I told you one source, you refused to accept it because it wasn't "official".

Now you've had it officially confirmed. If it was "nothing new", as you now seem to claim, you wouldn't have asked for 'official' proof earlier in the thread.

So drop the contrary wind up act, you're not good enough to carry it out.

Sorry, if I didn't make it clear a B&I league is an option. Thought I'd been pretty clear it is, just a very bad one which would mean things have gone very, very badly in a number of areas. Must be a kick in the groin for you that the English and Welsh league isn't on the table. Commiserations.

p.s. it won't happen.

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Post by Brendan Wed 23 Sep 2020, 10:08 am

Phillips highlights that CVC is all about the commercial when asked about a B&I league. He puts far more meat on any bones relating to SA and seems to imply if that happens then B&I wouldn't.

Not sure if you heard but CVC could be after the trans-tasman league does that mean they will want them to join too.

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Post by mikey_dragon Wed 23 Sep 2020, 10:21 am

Brendan wrote:Phillips highlights that CVC is all about the commercial when asked about a B&I league.  He puts far more meat on any bones relating to SA and seems to imply if that happens then B&I wouldn't.

Not sure if you heard but CVC could be after the trans-tasman league does that mean they will want them to join too.

Surprised nobody mentioned this sooner tbh. Some people read too much into things.

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Post by PhilBB Wed 23 Sep 2020, 10:49 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sorry, if I didn't make it clear a B&I league is an option. Thought I'd been pretty clear it is, just a very bad one which would mean things have gone very, very badly in a number of areas. Must be a kick in the groin for you that the English and Welsh league isn't on the table. Commiserations.

p.s. it won't happen.

I'd take a B&I, remember?

Sorry to pee on that parade you've just fabricated.
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Post by PhilBB Wed 23 Sep 2020, 10:49 am

Brendan wrote:Phillips highlights that CVC is all about the commercial when asked about a B&I league.  He puts far more meat on any bones relating to SA and seems to imply if that happens then B&I wouldn't.

Not sure if you heard but CVC could be after the trans-tasman league does that mean they will want them to join too.

SA will be on board by February. Well, that's the plan anyway.

Edit: The story goes that Rupert gave up his share in Saracens as he knew his SA team would be playing in the same league as them within a few years.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 23 Sep 2020, 10:57 am

Doesn't pee on any parade Phil. Ain't going to happen so not overly bothered. We'll see ow many English clubs make it rhough after the next 6 months (probably longer), to see whether ring fencing is even required.

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Post by Brendan Wed 23 Sep 2020, 11:20 am

PhilBB wrote:
Brendan wrote:Phillips highlights that CVC is all about the commercial when asked about a B&I league.  He puts far more meat on any bones relating to SA and seems to imply if that happens then B&I wouldn't.

Not sure if you heard but CVC could be after the trans-tasman league does that mean they will want them to join too.

SA will be on board by February. Well, that's the plan anyway.

Edit: The story goes that Rupert gave up his share in Saracens as he knew his SA team would be playing in the same league as them within a few years.

Only problem with that was that Rupert sold his share because he didn't want a share of 50m debt.  Add in that the Sarries ownership is not connected to CVC.  If anything the B&I league would of had no issue with it, and if they did Rupert's share in Sarries would be worth more not less as he/Sarries could hold up the PRL sign off on the league.
Much like it was suggest that in a ringfenced Premership the owner of Wocesher (when it was for sale) could be relegated and sell the Shares to the PRL and make money on their investment.

Phillips says
“There are other options like South Africa. The skill is to have as many options as possible, particularly in these current times.”.

If as you say the Pro16 is more or less sorted with the 4 big SA teams then by Phillips own words they have gone for a different opinion which is not B&I league.

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