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Should the top two English leagues be merged?

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 16 Jun 2020, 6:45 pm

First topic message reminder :

Ruck.co.uk have put together a rather pie in the sky piece about league reform in England.

https://www.ruck.co.uk/what-would-the-premiership-look-like-if-it-was-split-into-conferences-like-the-nfl/

It suggests splitting the top two divisions into 5 NFL style conferences. 

NORTHERN DIVISION
Doncaster Knights
Newcastle Falcons
Sale Sharks
Yorkshire Carnegie

LONDON DIVISION
Ealing Trailfinders
Harlequins
London Irish
Saracens

MIDLANDS 1
Bedford Blues
Leicester Tigers
Northampton Saints
Nottingham

MIDLANDS 2
Bristol Bears
Gloucester
Wasps
Worcester Warriors

SOUTHERN DIVISION
Bath
Cornish Pirates
Exeter Chiefs
Jersey

The issues emerge immediately as outraged Bristol fans want to know why they are a Midlands team and Bath are a Southern one. Midlands 2 would be much better re-badged as West.

Yorkshire/Leeds or whatever their name is this week obviously aren't fit to enter and Coventry would probably be annoyed by being overlooked after finishing last season on 4th. Not sure the Prem teams would be keen on sharing the television coverage pie but more games should mean more coverage options and maybe some shared coverage.

The West Country teams would probably want to be in the same group for derby game purposes but this would make their conference extremely harsh.

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Post by PhilBB Thu 17 Sep 2020, 4:44 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:I still don't think the English leagues should be merged and no amount of off-topic rambling about who pays what in Wales is changing that.

Maybe someone should make a separate thread for Phil & friends to continue their discussion elsewhere?

I think the leagues should be merged and all of the topic of conversation around that subject in this thread has been relevant, useful and entertaining.

Yes - to you. And seemingly only you.

That does tend to be why individuals 'hijack' online discussions: for their own amusement...sorry, own sense of "relevance, use, and entertainment".

If it was "seemingly only" me then it would only be me posting. But it isn't just me so, by your own definition, you're wrong.

And, of course, there's nothing to stop you from starting other threads on other discussion points.

Look, I know that you're fighting back because you've been shown to have written some utter guff, but don't get personal with it.
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Post by Guest Thu 17 Sep 2020, 5:30 pm

What do you call someone stuck in the psycho-emotional stage of development where 'you're wrong, i'm right, naaah nah nah na-nah' is considered a zinger? Considering it's typical behaviour for 6-8 year olds there must be a more general term for this when a grown adult does it?

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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 9:37 am

RRB, Physician, heal thyself.

Anyway, here's some music to CVC's ears if they are seeking a British and Irish league:

https://amp.independent.ie/sport/very-existence-of-professional-irish-rugby-under-threat-irfu-chiefs-to-deliver-catastrophic-warning-39540361.html?__twitter_impression=true

"IRFU boss Mr Browne is to tell TDs that his organisation is facing an “unprecedented cash flow crisis” andwill identify the absence of spectators at major fixtures as the “key issue facing rugby”.

Mr Browne’s opening statement says: “The absence of a clear pathway to the return of spectators, in meaningful numbers, means our perilous financial situation will continue to deteriorate at an alarming rate into 2021, moving to an unsustainable position by third quarter of that year.”

He says the IRFU is the only sporting body totally supporting a professional game that’s “massively dependent” on the men’s national team’s ability to generate funds."

“In very broad terms, it is anticipated that the IRFU and the Provinces will continue to 'burn' at least €5m a month, primarily on professional game wages and costs.”

He says: “This is not a sustainable position and will require significant additional actions after December 2020 if there is no sight of spectators returning at that point. “



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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 18 Sep 2020, 9:44 am

Everyone has cash issues. In more sports than rugby. And in more areas than sport. Covid 19 poses a lot of issues that won't be solved with a B&I league, which would probably mean that a lot of clubs and European comps have gone under.

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Post by Guest Fri 18 Sep 2020, 10:48 am

Sounds like the public is once again being asked to offer a portion of population sacrifice for the good of private capital.

You don't make important business decisions via a major media outlet: you use them to get whatever message or piece of propaganda out in to the public realm.

Tug on the heart strings, make people think Irish rugby is about to collapse, and a few people (and a few anti-Irish, pro-B&I zealots like Phil) will believe it and act accordingly: "let's get the fans back in, save the game, let's go back to the stadia".

Sport really is a modern religion, isn't it.

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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 10:54 am

rugby racing and beer wrote:Sounds like the public is once again being asked to offer a portion of population sacrifice for the good of private capital.

You don't make important business decisions via a major media outlet: you use them to get whatever message or piece of propaganda out in to the public realm.

Tug on the heart strings, make people think Irish rugby is about to collapse, and a few people (and a few anti-Irish, pro-B&I zealots like Phil) will believe it and act accordingly: "let's get the fans back in, save the game, let's go back to the stadia".

Sport really is a modern religion, isn't it.

Mate, the information is going to be presented to the Irish government to ask them for financial support, so I'm not sure how you've arrived at the conclusion you have.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 18 Sep 2020, 11:01 am

And the Welsh clubs are needing to take loans, and Exeter are making losses. It's due to a pandemic. Not a reason for the English clubs to merge and invite the Irish to join us.

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Post by Old Man Fri 18 Sep 2020, 11:03 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Everyone has cash issues. In more sports than rugby. And in more areas than sport. Covid 19 poses a lot of issues that won't be solved with a B&I league, which would probably mean that a lot of clubs and European comps have gone under.

I think the most important things clubs should learn from Covid19 is to live within their means.

Paying high salaries and going into liquidation is simply just poor financial management.

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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 11:05 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:And the Welsh clubs are needing to take loans, and Exeter are making losses. It's due to a pandemic. Not a reason for the English clubs to merge and invite the Irish to join us.

Well, there may be a hole in that thinking.

When losses are made (Exeter loaned their Chairman's company £14m last year, by the way), there's a need to borrow (of course). And, therefore, there's a need for greater income in the future in order to meet the normal cost base plus the loan repayments.

So how is that needed future rise in income going to be met? Well, CVC are in the driving seat for that role in both the PrO'Garbage and the Gallagher Premiership. So it is their responsibility.

Add in CVC's interest in the 6N, too, as confirmed by the WRU Interim Chief Exec this week, and you can see the route for income generation.

I'm still unsure as to why a chap (apologies if you're not a chap) who barely attends Championship rugby matches feels so invested in the future direction of professional leagues in Britain and Ireland, mind you. Other than the deliberate joy of playing the contrary role, of course.
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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 11:06 am

Old Man wrote:

I think the most important things clubs should learn from Covid19 is to live within their means.

Paying high salaries and going into liquidation is simply just poor financial management.

Does that thought stretch to every other business that's been so negatively affected by a global pandemic? How about the Unions, as you just mentioned clubs?
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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 18 Sep 2020, 11:08 am

Old Man wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Everyone has cash issues. In more sports than rugby. And in more areas than sport. Covid 19 poses a lot of issues that won't be solved with a B&I league, which would probably mean that a lot of clubs and European comps have gone under.

I think the most important things clubs should learn from Covid19 is to live within their means.

Paying high salaries and going into liquidation is simply just poor financial management.

And they do in general. Think its only London Welsh who have pushed it too far. A number of the Championship clubs (such as Donny) have said they wouldn't accept promotion if they achieved it as they wouldn't be able to compete financially and would put themselves at risk.

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Post by Old Man Fri 18 Sep 2020, 11:09 am

PhilBB wrote:
Old Man wrote:

I think the most important things clubs should learn from Covid19 is to live within their means.

Paying high salaries and going into liquidation is simply just poor financial management.

Does that thought stretch to every other business that's been so negatively affected by a global pandemic? How about the Unions, as you just mentioned clubs?

Yes of course it does, however looking at the clubs going bankrupt or under financial distress even before covid there is clear indication of financial mismanagement.

And truth be told do you guys really want private equity to bail out tournaments when they will have an increased say in rugby matters?

My concern for the future is private equity will focus on profits and player welfare may fall by the wayside.

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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 11:11 am

Old Man wrote:

Yes of course it does, however looking at the clubs going bankrupt or under financial distress even before covid there is clear indication of financial mismanagement.

And truth be told do you guys really want private equity to bail out tournaments when they will have an increased say in rugby matters?

My concern for the future is private equity will focus on profits and player welfare may fall by the wayside.

So all businesses should carry reserves that will see them through 18 months without any income otherwise they are guilty of "financial mismanagement"? That's some claim.

I think your concern is easily addressed by the fact that the product diminishes in quality (and therefore income) when player welfare is abused.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 18 Sep 2020, 11:11 am

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:And the Welsh clubs are needing to take loans, and Exeter are making losses. It's due to a pandemic. Not a reason for the English clubs to merge and invite the Irish to join us.

Well, there may be a hole in that thinking.

When losses are made (Exeter loaned their Chairman's company £14m last year, by the way), there's a need to borrow (of course). And, therefore, there's a need for greater income in the future in order to meet the normal cost base plus the loan repayments.

So how is that needed future rise in income going to be met? Well, CVC are in the driving seat for that role in both the PrO'Garbage and the Gallagher Premiership. So it is their responsibility.

Add in CVC's interest in the 6N, too, as confirmed by the WRU Interim Chief Exec this week, and you can see the route for income generation.

I'm still unsure as to why a chap (apologies if you're not a chap) who barely attends Championship rugby matches feels so invested in the future direction of professional leagues in Britain and Ireland, mind you. Other than the deliberate joy of playing the contrary role, of course.

If there's a B&I league it means things have deteriorated badly. It would signal less money from Europe if the comp even existed so means less money and more cuts. I'ma rugby fan, hence I'm interested. Would be me like saying why are you bothered about the merging of the English leagues, or ring fencing as you're Welsh and you're not invested in it. Of course you can comment, its a discussion forum.

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Post by Old Man Fri 18 Sep 2020, 11:13 am

PhilBB wrote:
Old Man wrote:

Yes of course it does, however looking at the clubs going bankrupt or under financial distress even before covid there is clear indication of financial mismanagement.

And truth be told do you guys really want private equity to bail out tournaments when they will have an increased say in rugby matters?

My concern for the future is private equity will focus on profits and player welfare may fall by the wayside.

So all businesses should carry reserves that will see them through 18 months without any income otherwise they are guilty of "financial mismanagement"? That's some claim.

I think your concern is easily addressed by the fact that the product diminishes in quality (and therefore income) when player welfare is abused.

No, businesses in general are profit orientated by their owners/shareholders, they don’t “overpay” staff. Where as rugby clubs have fallen into the trap of trying to compete with French billionaires who keep their clubs afloat with throw away money.

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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 11:16 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
If there's a B&I league it means things have deteriorated badly. It would signal less money from Europe if the comp even existed so means less money and more cuts. I'ma  rugby fan, hence I'm interested. Would be me like saying why are you bothered about the merging of the English leagues, or ring fencing as you're Welsh and you're not invested in it. Of course you can comment, its a discussion forum.

You've no knowledge that your second sentence follows your first. No proof. It's a complete straw man that you've created.

It's also easily disproved by simple maths. Even if there is a drop in the value of EPCR, so long as the increase in the value of the domestic league is greater than the loss from EPCR, rugby wins.

And then your straw man doomsday scenario is lost forever.

A less obvious deliberately contrary stance would be "I'd not be keen on any kind of cross border league involving English clubs if it meant less income overall into the game".
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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 11:18 am

Old Man wrote:

No, businesses in general are profit orientated by their owners/shareholders, they don’t “overpay” staff. Where as rugby clubs have fallen into the trap of trying to compete with French billionaires who keep their clubs afloat with throw away money.

Except that's not true, either. You only have to look at the DNACG report each year that details French club finances to know how little financial support their "billionaires" give - because of French law.

It's the necessary legalities of running a company that make rugby clubs limited companies in England and Wales. They aren't "businesses" in any way kind of way.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 18 Sep 2020, 11:25 am

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
If there's a B&I league it means things have deteriorated badly. It would signal less money from Europe if the comp even existed so means less money and more cuts. I'ma  rugby fan, hence I'm interested. Would be me like saying why are you bothered about the merging of the English leagues, or ring fencing as you're Welsh and you're not invested in it. Of course you can comment, its a discussion forum.

You've no knowledge that your second sentence follows your first. No proof. It's a complete straw man that you've created.

It's also easily disproved by simple maths. Even if there is a drop in the value of EPCR, so long as the increase in the value of the domestic league is greater than the loss from EPCR, rugby wins.

And then your straw man doomsday scenario is lost forever.

A less obvious deliberately contrary stance would be "I'd not be keen on any kind of cross border league involving English clubs if it meant less income overall into the game".

Riiiight. If there's pressure on finances to everyone why would anyone offer more money than current from a position of strength? It's very unlikely. It would also mean that some English clubs would be going under. A join B&I league with less clubs then suddenly is Europe a big draw? Certainly not as much as now as you'd be seeing some of the match ups more often anyway. Rugby may well be very different when and if we come out of the other side of Covid-19 but I can't see any way where a B&I is anything other than a last throw of the dice.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 18 Sep 2020, 11:26 am

English clubs were looking at the ring fencing of the league to ensure they have the reassurance of their finances and knowing what they can expect. There's really no push from them to invite others in or merge the leagues, as appointed out theres not the want from a lot of the championship clubs either.

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Post by Old Man Fri 18 Sep 2020, 11:31 am

PhilBB wrote:
Old Man wrote:

No, businesses in general are profit orientated by their owners/shareholders, they don’t “overpay” staff. Where as rugby clubs have fallen into the trap of trying to compete with French billionaires who keep their clubs afloat with throw away money.

Except that's not true, either. You only have to look at the DNACG report each year that details French club finances to know how little financial support their "billionaires" give - because of French law.

It's the necessary legalities of running a company that make rugby clubs limited companies in England and Wales. They aren't "businesses" in any way kind of way.

Regardless of legalities and terminology rugby clubs earn income and pay expenses of which player salaries are likely close to 50% of expenses. Thus if you overpay players to compete in the “buy winners” then my point stands.

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Post by Guest Fri 18 Sep 2020, 11:37 am

PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:Sounds like the public is once again being asked to offer a portion of population sacrifice for the good of private capital.

You don't make important business decisions via a major media outlet: you use them to get whatever message or piece of propaganda out in to the public realm.

Tug on the heart strings, make people think Irish rugby is about to collapse, and a few people (and a few anti-Irish, pro-B&I zealots like Phil) will believe it and act accordingly: "let's get the fans back in, save the game, let's go back to the stadia".

Sport really is a modern religion, isn't it.

Mate, the information is going to be presented to the Irish government to ask them for financial support, so I'm not sure how you've arrived at the conclusion you have.

"Mate"?

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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 11:38 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Riiiight. If there's pressure on finances to everyone why would anyone offer more money than current from a position of strength? It's very unlikely. It would also mean that some English clubs would be going under. A join B&I league with less clubs then suddenly is Europe a big draw? Certainly not as much as now as you'd be seeing some of the match ups more often anyway. Rugby may well be very different when and if we come out of the other side of Covid-19 but I can't see any way where a B&I is anything other than a last throw of the dice.

I've read that three times and the only conclusion I can arrive at is that you've no idea on the agreements already cut with CVC. Are you aware of how they work?
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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 11:39 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:English clubs were looking at the ring fencing of the league to ensure they have the reassurance of their finances and knowing what they can expect. There's really no push from them to invite others in or merge the leagues, as appointed out theres not the want from a lot of the championship clubs either.

Or, alternatively, ringfencing the professional game in England is the first step to a ring fenced professional cross border competition. Why? because the first question of such a new competition would be "how are the English clubs going to be promoted into it".
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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 11:40 am

Old Man wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Old Man wrote:

No, businesses in general are profit orientated by their owners/shareholders, they don’t “overpay” staff. Where as rugby clubs have fallen into the trap of trying to compete with French billionaires who keep their clubs afloat with throw away money.

Except that's not true, either. You only have to look at the DNACG report each year that details French club finances to know how little financial support their "billionaires" give - because of French law.

It's the necessary legalities of running a company that make rugby clubs limited companies in England and Wales. They aren't "businesses" in any way kind of way.

Regardless of legalities and terminology rugby clubs earn income and pay expenses of which player salaries are likely close to 50% of expenses. Thus if you overpay players to compete in the “buy winners” then my point stands.

But your point only stands if you view the businesses as a) mature, rather than in the growth stage and b) "proper businesses".

Remembering that any financial shortfall is met by their owners and is an agreed financial overspend, you can't really get beyond a) to b)
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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 11:41 am

rugby racing and beer wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:Sounds like the public is once again being asked to offer a portion of population sacrifice for the good of private capital.

You don't make important business decisions via a major media outlet: you use them to get whatever message or piece of propaganda out in to the public realm.

Tug on the heart strings, make people think Irish rugby is about to collapse, and a few people (and a few anti-Irish, pro-B&I zealots like Phil) will believe it and act accordingly: "let's get the fans back in, save the game, let's go back to the stadia".

Sport really is a modern religion, isn't it.

Mate, the information is going to be presented to the Irish government to ask them for financial support, so I'm not sure how you've arrived at the conclusion you have.

"Mate"?

vomit

You do seem to have some personal problem here with me. Why's that?

All I've done is pointed out the flaw in your analysis. Browne is going to the Irish government for some cash.
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Post by Guest Fri 18 Sep 2020, 11:45 am

Old Man wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Everyone has cash issues. In more sports than rugby. And in more areas than sport. Covid 19 poses a lot of issues that won't be solved with a B&I league, which would probably mean that a lot of clubs and European comps have gone under.

I think the most important things clubs should learn from Covid19 is to live within their means.

Paying high salaries and going into liquidation is simply just poor financial management.

Unfortunately it's not a black/white, either/or situation.

Rugby has to keep expanding (and quicker than it is) to compete with soccer and NFL in particular, but also rugby League, AFL and everything else.

There are very wealthy backers willing to pay the best players well and rapidly increase the money in rugby (Saracens e.g.) but the problem is that model can destroy the fabric of rugby and stunt growth lower down the scale. However, to keep athletes who might be tempted by a change in sport from the ages of 14-18 (or older) and who might be the stars of tomorrow in rugby, we need to pay them competitively and that means keep growing the game and keep paying the best players ridiculous wages. One of the unfortunate consequences for the rest of the world is that there is far less private capital in SA, NZ etc and so the heartlands of the game and the countries that produce the best players end up being penalised as France in particular pumps money in to their domestic league.

It's all about constantly striking a balance and being willing and able to adapt to changes as well as be honest about what is working and what is not. Part of that is the fundamental need for good, rugby-based management that doesn't just 'chase' money (desperately, according to Philip) at all costs. One stupid way of doing that would be to destroy the English pyramid league system, either in the way proposed in this thread or by some other means.

I'm a big fan of returning to national leagues and I'm sure this would benefit SA as well. In fact they would be one of the countries best placed to profit under this model, with a Super Rugby style competition on top of this that isn't oversaturated.

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Post by Guest Fri 18 Sep 2020, 11:47 am

PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:Sounds like the public is once again being asked to offer a portion of population sacrifice for the good of private capital.

You don't make important business decisions via a major media outlet: you use them to get whatever message or piece of propaganda out in to the public realm.

Tug on the heart strings, make people think Irish rugby is about to collapse, and a few people (and a few anti-Irish, pro-B&I zealots like Phil) will believe it and act accordingly: "let's get the fans back in, save the game, let's go back to the stadia".

Sport really is a modern religion, isn't it.

Mate, the information is going to be presented to the Irish government to ask them for financial support, so I'm not sure how you've arrived at the conclusion you have.

"Mate"?

vomit

You do seem to have some personal problem here with me. Why's that?

All I've done is pointed out the flaw in your analysis. Browne is going to the Irish government for some cash.

It's a very odd phrase to use towards someone you've never met. The only problem I think we appear to have with each other is you take low grade internet arguments far too seriously and don't really understand what you're saying.

Yes, Ireland will receive a loan. As the Welsh and English have. Ireland's league system isn't about to collapse. The second coming (i.e. B&I league, or Anglo Welsh) isn't going to happen.

This piece has ended up in a mainstream broadsheet precisely in order to get the people worried about Irish rugby and also tap in to the desire to return to the game as spectators. You don't seem to understand this: why?

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Post by Old Man Fri 18 Sep 2020, 11:50 am

I'm a big fan of returning to national leagues and I'm sure this would benefit SA as well. In fact they would be one of the countries best placed to profit under this model, with a Super Rugby style competition on top of this that isn't oversaturated.

Yes, I absolutely agree with that, have been advocating that in SA for some time now.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 18 Sep 2020, 11:52 am

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Riiiight. If there's pressure on finances to everyone why would anyone offer more money than current from a position of strength? It's very unlikely. It would also mean that some English clubs would be going under. A join B&I league with less clubs then suddenly is Europe a big draw? Certainly not as much as now as you'd be seeing some of the match ups more often anyway. Rugby may well be very different when and if we come out of the other side of Covid-19 but I can't see any way where a B&I is anything other than a last throw of the dice.

I've read that three times and the only conclusion I can arrive at is that you've no idea on the agreements already cut with CVC. Are you aware of how they work?

Enlighten me.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 18 Sep 2020, 11:54 am

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:English clubs were looking at the ring fencing of the league to ensure they have the reassurance of their finances and knowing what they can expect. There's really no push from them to invite others in or merge the leagues, as appointed out theres not the want from a lot of the championship clubs either.

Or, alternatively, ringfencing the professional game in England is the first step to a ring fenced professional cross border competition. Why? because the first question of such a new competition would be "how are the English clubs going to be promoted into it".

Cant see why that would be the case. Theres a fair few people who would argue the leagues across nations are bound to be failures.

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Post by Guest Fri 18 Sep 2020, 11:54 am

Old Man wrote:I'm a big fan of returning to national leagues and I'm sure this would benefit SA as well. In fact they would be one of the countries best placed to profit under this model, with a Super Rugby style competition on top of this that isn't oversaturated.

Yes, I absolutely agree with that, have been advocating that in SA for some time now.

It makes particular sense if pandemic infections are going to become a regular thing: the ability to shut down to the outside world but still maintain some normality within a country seems useful. Who knows what this 'new normal' will look?

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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 11:57 am

rugby racing and beer wrote:

Unfortunately it's not a black/white, either/or situation.

Rugby has to keep expanding (and quicker than it is) to compete with soccer and NFL in particular, but also rugby League, AFL and everything else.

There are very wealthy backers willing to pay the best players well and rapidly increase the money in rugby (Saracens e.g.) but the problem is that model can destroy the fabric of rugby and stunt growth lower down the scale. However, to keep athletes who might be tempted by a change in sport from the ages of 14-18 (or older) and who might be the stars of tomorrow in rugby, we need to pay them competitively and that means keep growing the game and keep paying the best players ridiculous wages. One of the unfortunate consequences for the rest of the world is that there is far less private capital in SA, NZ etc and so the heartlands of the game and the countries that produce the best players end up being penalised as France in particular pumps money in to their domestic league.

It's all about constantly striking a balance and being willing and able to adapt to changes as well as be honest about what is working and what is not. Part of that is the fundamental need for good, rugby-based management that doesn't just 'chase' money (desperately, according to Philip) at all costs. One stupid way of doing that would be to destroy the English pyramid league system, either in the way proposed in this thread or by some other means.

I'm a big fan of returning to national leagues and I'm sure this would benefit SA as well. In fact they would be one of the countries best placed to profit under this model, with a Super Rugby style competition on top of this that isn't oversaturated.

So how do you square your desire of a pyramid with clubs in the Championship who refuse to be promoted? What does that tell us about the pyramid?
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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 12:01 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:

It's a very odd phrase to use towards someone you've never met. The only problem I think we appear to have with each other is you take low grade internet arguments far too seriously and don't really understand what you're saying.

Yes, Ireland will receive a loan. As the Welsh and English have. Ireland's league system isn't about to collapse. The second coming (i.e. B&I league, or Anglo Welsh) isn't going to happen.

This piece has ended up in a mainstream broadsheet precisely in order to get the people worried about Irish rugby and also tap in to the desire to return to the game as spectators. You don't seem to understand this: why?

Ok, maybe you've never been called 'mate' by somebody you've just met. I hadn't considered that.

The Welsh haven't received a loan from the Government. I'm not sure if the RFU has, either.

I do like your Trumpian way of a) rarely being able to justify your claims and b) writing obvious inaccuracies whilst claiming others "don't really understand what you're saying". Still, so long as you're fooling yourself. Is it Trumpian or Powellian? Regardless, it's good fun.

I understand that the nation's biggest sports reporting to the Government with honesty is news.
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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 12:02 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Riiiight. If there's pressure on finances to everyone why would anyone offer more money than current from a position of strength? It's very unlikely. It would also mean that some English clubs would be going under. A join B&I league with less clubs then suddenly is Europe a big draw? Certainly not as much as now as you'd be seeing some of the match ups more often anyway. Rugby may well be very different when and if we come out of the other side of Covid-19 but I can't see any way where a B&I is anything other than a last throw of the dice.

I've read that three times and the only conclusion I can arrive at is that you've no idea on the agreements already cut with CVC. Are you aware of how they work?

Enlighten me.

So a) you don't know and b) you're projecting prejudice without having enlightened yourself and c) Google (something you were so reliant on earlier in the thread) isn't working for you today.

Ok, no worries, with each passing day I'm learning more and more about why you write as you do.
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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 12:03 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:
Old Man wrote:I'm a big fan of returning to national leagues and I'm sure this would benefit SA as well. In fact they would be one of the countries best placed to profit under this model, with a Super Rugby style competition on top of this that isn't oversaturated.

Yes, I absolutely agree with that, have been advocating that in SA for some time now.

It makes particular sense if pandemic infections are going to become a regular thing: the ability to shut down to the outside world but still maintain some normality within a country seems useful. Who knows what this 'new normal' will look?

Spot on. Leagues within natural borders.

So that means the Welsh leaving the Irish, Italians and South Africans but playing at least the English.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 18 Sep 2020, 12:07 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Riiiight. If there's pressure on finances to everyone why would anyone offer more money than current from a position of strength? It's very unlikely. It would also mean that some English clubs would be going under. A join B&I league with less clubs then suddenly is Europe a big draw? Certainly not as much as now as you'd be seeing some of the match ups more often anyway. Rugby may well be very different when and if we come out of the other side of Covid-19 but I can't see any way where a B&I is anything other than a last throw of the dice.

I've read that three times and the only conclusion I can arrive at is that you've no idea on the agreements already cut with CVC. Are you aware of how they work?

Enlighten me.

So a) you don't know and b) you're projecting prejudice without having enlightened yourself and c) Google (something you were so reliant on earlier in the thread) isn't working for you today.

Ok, no worries, with each passing day I'm learning more and more about why you write as you do.

So nothing from you again. Excellent. I appreciate you're desperate for a English and Welsh league, but its just very unlikely to happen.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 18 Sep 2020, 12:08 pm

PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:
Old Man wrote:I'm a big fan of returning to national leagues and I'm sure this would benefit SA as well. In fact they would be one of the countries best placed to profit under this model, with a Super Rugby style competition on top of this that isn't oversaturated.

Yes, I absolutely agree with that, have been advocating that in SA for some time now.

It makes particular sense if pandemic infections are going to become a regular thing: the ability to shut down to the outside world but still maintain some normality within a country seems useful. Who knows what this 'new normal' will look?

Spot on. Leagues within natural borders.

So that means the Welsh leaving the Irish, Italians and South Africans but playing at least the English.


Or indeed the Welsh just focusing on themselves and giving it a go. There comes a time when you've got to stop pining and accept where you are.

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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 12:11 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
So nothing from you again. Excellent. I appreciate you're desperate for a English and Welsh league, but its just very unlikely to happen.

I've already given you the information on how CVC can do this and how they are in the driving seat to do this. You've claimed otherwise without any knowledge of how CVC are intending to drive revenue.

For example, could it be that the broadcast contracts for both the GP and PrO'14 end in the same year?
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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 12:12 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Or indeed the Welsh just focusing on themselves and giving it a go. There comes a time when you've got to stop pining and accept where you are.

Wales is too small to support professional rugby on its own, just as is England.

Bristol to Glocuester is 40 miles.
Bristol to Cardiff is 44 miles.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 18 Sep 2020, 12:15 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
So nothing from you again. Excellent. I appreciate you're desperate for a English and Welsh league, but its just very unlikely to happen.

I've already given you the information on how CVC can do this and how they are in the driving seat to do this. You've claimed otherwise without any knowledge of how CVC are intending to drive revenue.

For example, could it be that the broadcast contracts for both the GP and PrO'14 end in the same year?

They're not in the driving seat. It'll be down to the clubs as always.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 18 Sep 2020, 12:15 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:

Or indeed the Welsh just focusing on themselves and giving it a go. There comes a time when you've got to stop pining and accept where you are.

Wales is too small to support professional rugby on its own, just as is England.

Bristol to Glocuester is 40 miles.
Bristol to Cardiff is 44 miles.


England supports itself. I'm afraid this is just a Wales thing.

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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 12:20 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
So nothing from you again. Excellent. I appreciate you're desperate for a English and Welsh league, but its just very unlikely to happen.

I've already given you the information on how CVC can do this and how they are in the driving seat to do this. You've claimed otherwise without any knowledge of how CVC are intending to drive revenue.

For example, could it be that the broadcast contracts for both the GP and PrO'14 end in the same year?

They're not in the driving seat. It'll be down to the clubs as always.

Nope. Not true. 91% etc. as explained above.
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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Sep 2020, 12:21 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:

England supports itself. I'm afraid this is just a Wales thing.

Except it doesn't because PRL want to ring fence a 13 team league.

Even this week the WRU were happily telling the Joint Supporters Group that a British League is on the horizon because of CVC.

But, hey ho. I'm sure you'll remain a contrarian even when it kicks off.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 18 Sep 2020, 12:28 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Why would the english want to play with the welsh rather than include the better teams like Leinster? They'd still have the same problem with the welsh union paying players wages as well. That'd have to go as well of course. You've basically turned 3 threads into how youd like your team to play with the english though. Bit sad when it's not going to happen. Maybe follow the football if you're that unhappy with the rugby?

The Welsh union only pays the Dragons wages whilst the Dragons are being sold.
The English wouldn't want single ownership of multiple entrants who wouldn't work to a salary cap.

I've not turned anything into anything, but it's telling that your mindset is to run away rather than work to improve. I guess it's difficult to play the role of deliberate contrarian when presented with logic, hence your complete failure today.

Yet it's my position that the English will continue to work with clubs within England and you're position that you want your Welsh club in England; not sure you've thought that through. You need to make a good go of it as I see no reason the English clubs would want an English and Welsh league or a B&I league. As I've said their plan is to ring fence the Prem not expand.

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Post by Guest Fri 18 Sep 2020, 1:01 pm

PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:

Unfortunately it's not a black/white, either/or situation.

Rugby has to keep expanding (and quicker than it is) to compete with soccer and NFL in particular, but also rugby League, AFL and everything else.

There are very wealthy backers willing to pay the best players well and rapidly increase the money in rugby (Saracens e.g.) but the problem is that model can destroy the fabric of rugby and stunt growth lower down the scale. However, to keep athletes who might be tempted by a change in sport from the ages of 14-18 (or older) and who might be the stars of tomorrow in rugby, we need to pay them competitively and that means keep growing the game and keep paying the best players ridiculous wages. One of the unfortunate consequences for the rest of the world is that there is far less private capital in SA, NZ etc and so the heartlands of the game and the countries that produce the best players end up being penalised as France in particular pumps money in to their domestic league.

It's all about constantly striking a balance and being willing and able to adapt to changes as well as be honest about what is working and what is not. Part of that is the fundamental need for good, rugby-based management that doesn't just 'chase' money (desperately, according to Philip) at all costs. One stupid way of doing that would be to destroy the English pyramid league system, either in the way proposed in this thread or by some other means.

I'm a big fan of returning to national leagues and I'm sure this would benefit SA as well. In fact they would be one of the countries best placed to profit under this model, with a Super Rugby style competition on top of this that isn't oversaturated.

So how do you square your desire of a pyramid with clubs in the Championship who refuse to be promoted? What does that tell us about the pyramid?

I'm going to have to ask you to re-phrase or at least expand upon what you mean as I cannot for the life of me understand how that could be a negative?

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Post by Guest Fri 18 Sep 2020, 1:02 pm

PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:

It's a very odd phrase to use towards someone you've never met. The only problem I think we appear to have with each other is you take low grade internet arguments far too seriously and don't really understand what you're saying.

Yes, Ireland will receive a loan. As the Welsh and English have. Ireland's league system isn't about to collapse. The second coming (i.e. B&I league, or Anglo Welsh) isn't going to happen.

This piece has ended up in a mainstream broadsheet precisely in order to get the people worried about Irish rugby and also tap in to the desire to return to the game as spectators. You don't seem to understand this: why?

Ok, maybe you've never been called 'mate' by somebody you've just met. I hadn't considered that.

But we're on the internet. We haven't met. It's an odd way to converse. It's a little creepy, if anything. Thanks for understanding, bro.

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Post by Guest Fri 18 Sep 2020, 1:05 pm

PhilBB wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:
Old Man wrote:I'm a big fan of returning to national leagues and I'm sure this would benefit SA as well. In fact they would be one of the countries best placed to profit under this model, with a Super Rugby style competition on top of this that isn't oversaturated.

Yes, I absolutely agree with that, have been advocating that in SA for some time now.

It makes particular sense if pandemic infections are going to become a regular thing: the ability to shut down to the outside world but still maintain some normality within a country seems useful. Who knows what this 'new normal' will look?

Spot on. Leagues within natural borders.

So that means the Welsh leaving the Irish, Italians and South Africans but playing at least the English.


You need to stop using the phrase 'spot on'. You clearly don't know what it means.

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Post by Guest Fri 18 Sep 2020, 1:12 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:

Or indeed the Welsh just focusing on themselves and giving it a go. There comes a time when you've got to stop pining and accept where you are.

Wales is too small to support professional rugby on its own, just as is England.

Bristol to Glocuester is 40 miles.
Bristol to Cardiff is 44 miles.


Llanelli to Newcastle is 400 miles
Llanelli to Dublin 220 miles

What's your point (other than playing with the English will somehow turn the Blues back in to Cardiff and will remove the incompetent board members and turn them in to a world class rugby club with more money than anyone else)? What exactly is your point?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 18 Sep 2020, 1:38 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:

England supports itself. I'm afraid this is just a Wales thing.

Except it doesn't because PRL want to ring fence a 13 team league.

Even this week the WRU were happily telling the Joint Supporters Group that a British League is on the horizon because of CVC.

But, hey ho. I'm sure you'll remain a contrarian even when it kicks off.

Really. Hadn't seen that regarding the WRUs statement. Have you got a link and I'll have a read.
I do get that you'd like to play in the English league as you appear to have a dislike of the Irish and somehow feel you could flourish in the English league.

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Post by Irish Londoner Fri 18 Sep 2020, 1:48 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:

Or indeed the Welsh just focusing on themselves and giving it a go. There comes a time when you've got to stop pining and accept where you are.

Wales is too small to support professional rugby on its own, just as is England.

Bristol to Glocuester is 40 miles.
Bristol to Cardiff is 44 miles.


I agree Wales is too small to support fully professional club rugby on it's own, as are Ireland, Scotland and Italy, I wonder if a mutually agreeable solution could be found ? Maybe some sort of joint league?


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