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The summer of cricket 2020

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Post by alfie on Fri 17 Jul 2020, 4:31 pm

First topic message reminder :

Stokes gone at last...and Roach gets one at last ! Bit fluky , reverse leg side edge but I think Kemar was entitled to dome good fortune...

Hell of an innings from Stokes thumbsup

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 17 Jul 2020, 7:03 pm

Curran bowled an excellent mini-spell to finish the day off. And I think he had Joseph on that penultimate delivery...yes he did. Brilliant bouncer to set it up, followed by an exquisite yorker.

England would have liked one more - still, they'll be very happy with the match situation going into Saturday. Plenty of swing and a bit of turn for Bess to work with. West Indies need the double of avoiding the follow-on and hoping for plenty of rain to fall tomorrow.

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Post by king_carlos on Fri 17 Jul 2020, 7:03 pm

That's plumb. Doh

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 17 Jul 2020, 7:05 pm

king_carlos wrote:That's plumb. Doh

Yeah, but the umpires are biased in England's favour. It's what KP_Fan told us all.

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Post by king_carlos on Fri 17 Jul 2020, 7:07 pm

That lost wicket without a review there (agree it's a tough call for the guys behind the stumps) is a great example of why I really like Curran. A sharp, skiddy and very well directed bouncer reminds Joseph that he can't just keep planting his front leg forward. Then the full one with the great natural shape inwards catches him flat footed.

I hope they open up with Broad and Curran tomorrow.

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Post by guildfordbat on Fri 17 Jul 2020, 7:17 pm

A pleasing and annoying end to the day for England.

Anyway, we're in the box seats and it'll take a lot of rain or a good turnaround by the Windies to change my view.

Until the morrow.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 17 Jul 2020, 9:34 pm

Duty281 wrote:
king_carlos wrote:That's plumb. Doh

Yeah, but the umpires are biased in England's favour. It's what KP_Fan told us all.

Certainly had a bit of both ways on the umpires, they do seem to be very much favouring "not out" on the lbws. Its still stung west indies a lot more, they reviewed 3 on Stokes and Sibley that brushed the top of the stumps. Be interesting to see if the umpires get a bit more willing to give them after so many could/should haves in the first two days. Only one was an out and out bad decision but it does suggest a pattern.


Joseph by doing exactly what you don't want from a nightwatchman has managed to achieve exactly what you do want from them. Inetresting comments form Agnew who said he did that once in a county game because he was really annoyed with the captain for sending him out ( it ended up a lot worse!) Do wonder if Joseph was a bit miffed about being asked to go out to bat after a ridiculous couple of days in the field and with him being at risk of worsening injuries.

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 18 Jul 2020, 8:05 am

Forecast appalling. Huge band of rain making its way over Manchester. Might squeeze some play in the evening session for a couple of hours, but that's as far as my optimism is stretching.

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Post by Gooseberry on Sat 18 Jul 2020, 8:53 am

Ooph yes weather forecast has got much worse hasnt it, although there could be play late on its really bad luck for England.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sat 18 Jul 2020, 8:57 am

Absolutely hammering it down here in East Didsbury....Old Trafford is just up the road..

Do well to start on time.....Problematic perhaps when a guy takes so long to score runs though I am not an expert in Cricket..

Like watching paint dry.


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Post by Pal Joey on Sat 18 Jul 2020, 9:31 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Absolutely hammering it down here in East Didsbury....Old Trafford is just up the road..

Do well to start on time.....Problematic perhaps when a guy takes so long to score  runs though I am not an expert in Cricket..

Like watching paint dry.


Thanks for painting such a bleak picture, Truss. Smile

That's quite a good analogy. Anyway, miracles can happen... you never know.
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Post by Gooseberry on Sat 18 Jul 2020, 10:07 am

Cant watch paint dry in the rain either

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Post by alfie on Sat 18 Jul 2020, 10:17 am

Not good news. Looks like very limited play today so England will probably have bowl them out and ensure a West Indian follow on some time tomorrow if they hope to force a win. Not easy unless conditions give the bowlers a hand.
Can't do anything about the weather. But this is why I was a bit anxious about the apparent England game plan to go for a mammoth score at the expense of getting West Indies in rather earlier than they did.
Hopefully the movement Sam Curran was getting last night is there when they - eventually - resume. He just might do a bit of damage and move the game along...

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Post by Gooseberry on Sat 18 Jul 2020, 10:40 am

alfie wrote:Not good news. Looks like very limited play today so England will probably have bowl them out and ensure a West Indian follow on some time tomorrow if they hope to force a win.  Not easy unless conditions give the bowlers a hand.
Can't do anything about the weather. But this is why I was a bit anxious about the apparent England game plan to go for a mammoth score at the expense of getting West Indies in rather earlier than they did.
Hopefully the movement Sam Curran was getting last night is there when they - eventually - resume. He just might do a bit of damage and move the game along...

They will alwyas need the same number of runs to make West Indies bat twice in a row, or enough to win if they couldn't force the follow on.
If they'd rushed to 350 all out, which was pretty likely when you look at how the game progressed when they did try to score quickly they'd now be in a position where the game was loseable and not much more winnable.
Also worth remembering todays weather its far worse than it had been forecast yesterday, it could just as easily have been better.

They really dont tend to be overly driven by the forecasts, it may cost them in this case but they could have been in an even worse spot had they tried to second guess things rather than playing the pitch. Its really not easy to score quickly, and theres plenty in it for Broad and Bess even if swing is harder to come by. The West Indies are still an incredibly weak batting side but with two full extended days (and possibly some today) theres still 600 runs out there so Englands total isnt near enough to win the game without batting again unless they polish off west indies with plenty of overs to spare.

I kinda feel this is a bit like the decisions to put the opposition in to bat, they did the right thing at the time based on the information they had but maybe n hindsight youd look at something and think maybe we could've done that differently. Carlos Braithwaite was on the money when he said that Holder wouldnt be regretting his decision to bat first but would be regretting his teams performance in the field including his own. England should be the same if they cant close this out, theres still time they just need to take wickets. They made the West Indies open the batting at the hardest point of the day to bat and when exhausted.


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Post by Duty281 on Sat 18 Jul 2020, 10:52 am

The rain arriving today is pretty much as expected. The Met Office (normally the most accurate) yesterday were flagging up most of the hours of play today as a 50-60% chance of rain, which normally means curtains.

Will be difficult for England to force a win if today is wiped out, but far from impossible with 196 overs left in the game.

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Post by guildfordbat on Sat 18 Jul 2020, 11:18 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Absolutely hammering it down here in East Didsbury....Old Trafford is just up the road..

Do well to start on time.....Problematic perhaps when a guy takes so long to score  runs though I am not an expert in Cricket..

Like watching paint dry.


What are you northerners up to with your weather? Shocked Bright and sunny down here!

Atm still two days and possibly more to take 19 wickets. An England win remains possible ....

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Post by alfie on Sat 18 Jul 2020, 11:26 am

Fair points , goose. As you say , still time to bowl their way to victory if good enough.
But I'm not being wise in hindsight . Nor am I suggesting a team should allow their tactics to be totally dictated by weather forecasts that may or may not come true. Just saying that when you have to win a match to keep the series alive , you probably need to be prepared to take on a little more risk than you otherwise might. There was a time when it was clear England (a) had a half decent platform', and (b) needed to either attack or continue grafting in search of an unbeatable total. They chose the latter .

The classical choice , in sport and other aspects of life : risk v reward.

Hope they don't regret theirs this time.

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 18 Jul 2020, 1:24 pm

Jofra cleared to play the third test after getting a fine and a written warning.

Think he's a very lucky boy.

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Post by alfie on Sat 18 Jul 2020, 1:48 pm

Duty281 wrote:Jofra cleared to play the third test after getting a fine and a written warning.

Think he's a very lucky boy.

I didn't really expect him to be banned...would have been overkill , I think. Doesn't mean he will walk back into the team next week though either.

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Post by GSC on Sat 18 Jul 2020, 3:30 pm

Anything more than a test and a slapping down is overkill.

He nipped home on his way to Manchester, let's not crucify him. It was stupid but hardly malicious
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sat 18 Jul 2020, 4:50 pm

I've only been over here since 89....But back home the most important word in Sport is 'Momentum'..

My limited knowledge of cricket means I didn't see the West Indian team with the Commentator on Sky in it everyone has heard much about....But I imagine like the great Australian team that had guys like Hayden and Langer opening and the great England team that had Strauss and Trescothick....

The guys were aggressive at the top of the order and set the tone and momentum for what came later...Am I right ??

So having two scratchers like England have now in Burns and Sibley surely doesn't help with momentum...Shouldn't it be better to exploit the bowlers before they find a rhythm ???..

Maybe have at least one slapper opening..Just a thought ??

When you are one paced whether it be in Soccer... Basketball.....Football....Not always easy to up the ante..


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Post by guildfordbat on Sat 18 Jul 2020, 5:29 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I've only been over here since 89....But back home the most important word in Sport is 'Momentum'..

My limited knowledge of cricket means I didn't see the West Indian team with the Commentator on Sky in it everyone has heard much about....But I imagine like the great Australian team that had guys like Hayden and Langer opening and the great England team that had Strauss and Trescothick....

The guys were aggressive at the top of the order and set the tone and momentum for what came later...Am I right ??

So having two scratchers like England have now in Burns and Sibley surely doesn't help with momentum...Shouldn't it be better to exploit the bowlers before they find a rhythm ???..

Maybe have at least one slapper opening..Just a thought ??

When you are one paced whether it be in Soccer... Basketball.....Football....Not always easy to up the ante..


Truss - were you around last year to see Jason Roy?

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 18 Jul 2020, 7:27 pm

The best England team in my lifetime had Strauss/Cook/Trott as the top three...not a slapper in the bunch.

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Post by GSC on Sat 18 Jul 2020, 7:30 pm

I do think Sibley will need to find a few more scoring shots in his arsenal but application alone puts him in the top tier of options
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Post by JDizzle on Sat 18 Jul 2020, 8:20 pm

Duty281 wrote:The best England team in my lifetime had Strauss/Cook/Trott as the top three...not a slapper in the bunch.

Strike rates of 49,47,47. Sibley is at 38. He will need to up it a bit. No reason for alarm yet though.

Still, slow runs > no runs.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sat 18 Jul 2020, 8:58 pm

GSC wrote:Anything more than a test and a slapping down is overkill.

He nipped home on his way to Manchester, let's not crucify him. It was stupid but hardly malicious

Agree with you on this GSC - made his mistake, taken his punishment which has been handed down appropriately, move on and learn from it.

As for this game...England are gonna need a good morning tomorrow, take advantage of the moisture that’s been put into the pitch, and it will presumably swing. Then, hopefully as the day progresses, Bess will come into it more. Personally, would like to see him bowl round the wicket a bit more often to the right handers, especially with the bounce and turn on this wicket
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Post by alfie on Sun 19 Jul 2020, 3:51 am

Yes , Bess will likely be important ...and I do hope Root is prepared to trust him , even if he gets hit around occasionally. With just two days left and 19 wickets to take , worrying about economy shouldn't be a priority - though it does seem to be built in to England's tactical approach these days.
It may be Root himself has a significant part to play in the attack too.

Still going to need the seamers to do a job. But since the only practical way to win from here is enforcing a follow on , they will need to be rationed so that they can keep firing for the better part of two consecutive days.

I reckon it's going to be a tough job to win from here , given the determined way West Indies have been playing on this tour. But the situation at least guarantees England can't lose so they might as well throw the kitchen sink at them and see what happens...

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 19 Jul 2020, 9:15 am

JDizzle wrote:
Duty281 wrote:The best England team in my lifetime had Strauss/Cook/Trott as the top three...not a slapper in the bunch.

Strike rates of 49,47,47. Sibley is at 38. He will need to up it a bit. No reason for alarm yet though.

Still, slow runs > no runs.

Oh yes, I do agree with that. Sibley does need to develop a few shots to ensure he's a long term option for the openers' berth, especially against the spinners.

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 19 Jul 2020, 9:22 am

Two tasks for the West Indies today - avoid the follow-on and bat out the day. If they avoid the follow-on but don't bat the day, they'll probably get a draw although they may still face a tricky 70-80 overs in the second innings to save the test. If they do both, it will be a draw and the Wisden Trophy will be retained by the tourists.

England need to hope the persistent swing still exists and that the three main seamers can take advantage of it. It's unusual to enforce the follow-on nowadays, but with yesterday washed out England must do just that if they get the chance. And if they get the chance they'll surely level the series at 1-1, as they'll have 194 overs with which to take 19 wickets.

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Post by guildfordbat on Sun 19 Jul 2020, 10:10 am

Been damp overnight and now fine rain in my neck of woods which should guarantee decent weather in Manchester! Wink

Well, Alfie and Carlos, think we can say this is moving day. Smile Effectively, day 3 of a day 4 Test. We should know by the close of play if the draw is a done deal or if England retain realistic hopes of the win.

We've rightly already commented a fair bit on England's bowling. A lot of course will also depend on the Windies' batting. In contrast to their bowling in the first Test, their bowling on Thursday and Friday was sloppy and inconsistent. If they bat today like they bowled, we could have 'em all out mid afternoon. However, I suspect yesterday's break will have given them the opportunity to rethink and recharge.

To avoid the follow on, the Windies need to get to within 199 of our total, so 270, that's right, isn't it? Even with a disciplined approach, I don't reckon that'll be too easy for them. I'm expecting the conditions to continue to suit our fast-medium seamers and backing them to bowl accordingly.

All in all, it should be an interesting battle today. Could certainly be fun late tonight and tomorrow morning if the Windies narrowly avoid the follow on and we have to bat again. Certainly don't expect another 300 ball ton from Sibley! Smile

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Post by GSC on Sun 19 Jul 2020, 10:20 am

Given England changed the entire seam attack for this game, and can do again for the 3rd test; and have barely bowled in this game, if they are in a position to enforce a follow on, no real reason not to.

Long way to go until then though. But if England can get a few early it might get into the WIs mindset and make go ultra defensive
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Post by Duty281 on Sun 19 Jul 2020, 10:35 am

Beautiful weather in Manchester today, Old Trafford is bathed in sunshine. Just what the West Indies would have been hoping for.

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Post by alfie on Sun 19 Jul 2020, 11:00 am

Duty281 wrote:Beautiful weather in Manchester today, Old Trafford is bathed in sunshine. Just what the West Indies would have been hoping for.

Not really. Another washout would have suited them very well Smile

Moving day alright , indeed , Guildford...

Pity it wasn't the first day washed out : follow on would then have been 150. But I guess if they can't bowl them out under 270 they'd be pushed for time anyway.

No doubt Duty will have the odds for us shortly ?

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 19 Jul 2020, 11:04 am

England 4/5. Draw 21/20. Seems pretty fair. West Indies out at 66/1.

Woakes and Broad starting up - would have liked to have seen Curran after his good spell on Friday.

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Post by guildfordbat on Sun 19 Jul 2020, 11:04 am

Further to Olly's query the other day, Atherton has confirmed different Old Trafford wickets have been prepared for the 2 tests against the Windies and the one (think it's one) against Pakistan.

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Post by guildfordbat on Sun 19 Jul 2020, 11:11 am

alfie wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Beautiful weather in Manchester today, Old Trafford is bathed in sunshine. Just what the West Indies would have been hoping for.

Not really.  Another washout would have suited them very well Smile

Moving day alright , indeed , Guildford...

Pity it wasn't the first day washed out : follow on would then have been 150.  But I guess if they can't bowl them out under 270 they'd be pushed for time anyway.

No doubt Duty will have the odds for us shortly ?

Morning / evening Alfie, thanks for that confirmation. I thought the follow on figure came down in certain circumstances of time being lost but couldn't remember the detail. Not here then. 270 for the Windies to reach.

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Post by guildfordbat on Sun 19 Jul 2020, 11:19 am

Another life for Joseph, after he got away with an lbw on Friday night from Curran. This time edging Woakes to Stokes at second slip. Crawley appeared to dive across and then pull out putting him off. All happened so fast and therefore some understanding for what Crawley did but still a mistake. Hoping it won't be too costly. 50 now up ....

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Post by alfie on Sun 19 Jul 2020, 11:20 am

Yeah. If you lose the entire first day , it becomes a four day match so the follow on target changes. Time lost later is just tough luck.

Doesn't really matter . Need them out sometime today , under 270 ...not the best start ! Catch dropped , run out chance missed...

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 19 Jul 2020, 11:21 am

Joseph doesn't seem to want to hang around too long. Nearly ran himself out there.

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Post by guildfordbat on Sun 19 Jul 2020, 11:24 am

Duty281 wrote:Joseph doesn't seem to want to hang around too long. Nearly ran himself out there.

Yeah, also thought Buttler could have done better there. If he had taken Sibley's throw down, Joseph could still have been run out.

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Post by alfie on Sun 19 Jul 2020, 11:26 am

guildfordbat wrote:Another life for Joseph, after he got away with an lbw on Friday night from Curran. This time edging Woakes to Stokes at second slip. Crawley appeared to dive across and then pull out putting him off. All happened so fast and therefore some understanding for what Crawley did but still a mistake. Hoping it won't be too costly. 50 now up ....

Not too critical of Crawley. No time to think about in slips at that pace. If he doesn't move , it is probably a more straightforward chance for Stokes - though still a slightly awkward height - but I think it was one of those balls that is just "perfectly placed" to elude the slip cordon , however they are spaced.

Another edge now...Joseph riding his luck ! Think something will happen soon...

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 19 Jul 2020, 11:29 am

Really frustrating start for England. So many edges and they keep finding the rope. 35 runs already added.

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Post by Pal Joey on Sun 19 Jul 2020, 11:30 am

Chief White Cloud very unlucky. Have a feeling one arrow will hit target soon... bullseye or not.
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Post by alfie on Sun 19 Jul 2020, 11:44 am

Good combination this for West Indies : Joseph scoring freely and frustrating England no end...while Brathwaite digs in (again) Is actually Brathwaite they really want soon ; imagine Joseph runs out of luck eventually , but he can be very adhesive.

Need to keep calm : ball is moving about and chances are being created. And Joseph might be using up his team's ration of luck for the morning...

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Post by guildfordbat on Sun 19 Jul 2020, 11:46 am

Here's Bess. Joseph will be getting runs or out, I reckon!

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Post by guildfordbat on Sun 19 Jul 2020, 11:47 am

Thank you. Smile

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Post by alfie on Sun 19 Jul 2020, 11:48 am

Didn't take long Smile

Bess will be the main man today , I think. Hope that doesn't hex him...

Nice catch by Pope

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Post by guildfordbat on Sun 19 Jul 2020, 11:48 am

That was a neat snaffle by the Pope. He's a good and reliable fielder, particularly close in.

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Post by guildfordbat on Sun 19 Jul 2020, 11:54 am

Hope and ... hmmm ... Buttler struggling with Bess.

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Post by alfie on Sun 19 Jul 2020, 12:00 pm

guildfordbat wrote:Hope and ... hmmm ... Buttler struggling with Bess.

I know you are on the Committee for Foakes , guildford ; but I do share your concerns that England may not have the ideal man behind the stumps for a spinning day...

To be fair to Buttler , he has been generally OK standing back since he returned to the keeper's spot. But he has never really looked comfortable up to the stumps. No idea what chances he's had off the top of my head ; but I do note he has never yet executed a Test Match stumping.

Maybe today's the day ?

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 19 Jul 2020, 12:03 pm

Think we've seen enough in the opening hour to learn that victory will be very tough to get for England. Seamers will have to work very hard for their wickets with less assistance available for them than in the opening two days. Bit of turn out there but nothing outrageous.

Only 189 to avoid the follow-on.

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