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England: 8 Nations

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 20 Aug 2020, 8:28 am

First topic message reminder :

Not sure if theres already a thread kicking about but seeing as the prem is back I thought it may be nice to argue over the numerous players impressing.

As ever it seems to be scrum half, flankers, centre and full back are where there are chances for people to force their way in. Can't say I've ever been able to call what Eddie Jones thinks but Willis and hill must be tempting him to widen the player pool. A number of scrum halfs have started well also but has the time come for Spencer or Robson? Thought Maunder was very good too and Mitchell showed great flashes.

I'm at a bit of a loss for full back based on the games last week. Furbank looked anonymous and let's face it Daly is a Jones favourite.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 20 Oct 2020, 11:03 am

I completely missed BIlly in there KC. Yes you are correct...he'll start.

Im glad young Ted Hill is in there...i hope he gets some good run outs this Autumn...

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 20 Oct 2020, 11:04 am

I can certainly understand having an eye on Italy and the need for a bonus point win to put us in a position to win the title however I'd like more of the wider squad to get a chance. Personally I'd want Genge hill Dombrandt and thorley to get starts, watson full back. I'd also like to see Mitchell get a half from the bench.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 20 Oct 2020, 11:08 am

7.5 i can see it going this way

Baa baas - play strongest lineup to dust of the cobwebs, and give a few of the hopefuls a run off the bench.
Italy - Play strongest side to win.

The rest of the games...mix it up..first teamers and big hopefuls..

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 20 Oct 2020, 11:15 am

At some point over the Autumn id love to see something like this start:
An experiened "spine" ...but lots of young potential around that

1 Genge
2 George
3 Sinkler
4 Itoje
5 Johnny Hill
6 Ted Hill
7 Curry
8 Dombrandt

9 Mitchell
10 Farrell
11 May
12 Slade
13 Lawrence
14 Thorley
15 Watson

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Post by lostinwales Tue 20 Oct 2020, 11:22 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:At some point over the Autumn id love to see something like this start:
An experiened "spine" ...but lots of young potential around that

1 Genge
2 George
3 Sinkler
4 Itoje
5 Johnny Hill
6 Ted Hill
7 Curry
8 Dombrandt

9 Mitchell
10 Farrell
11 May
12 Slade
13 Lawrence
14 Thorley
15 Watson

That would be fun to see but I suspect Eddie will want a second openside/jackler, at least to start.

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Post by Poorfour Tue 20 Oct 2020, 11:24 am

lostinwales wrote:That's why Curry is so important. Any 2 + Curry = balanced

Still not completely convinced by Curry at 8, though I'd agree his versatility at 6 or 7 allows for a wider range of balanced back rows.
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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 20 Oct 2020, 11:30 am

lostinwales wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:At some point over the Autumn id love to see something like this start:
An experiened "spine" ...but lots of young potential around that

1 Genge
2 George
3 Sinkler
4 Itoje
5 Johnny Hill
6 Ted Hill
7 Curry
8 Dombrandt

9 Mitchell
10 Farrell
11 May
12 Slade
13 Lawrence
14 Thorley
15 Watson

That would be fun to see but I suspect Eddie will want a second openside/jackler, at least to start.

Oh i dont expect to see it Laugh

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 20 Oct 2020, 2:19 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:At some point over the Autumn id love to see something like this start:
An experiened "spine" ...but lots of young potential around that

1 Genge
2 George
3 Sinkler
4 Itoje
5 Johnny Hill
6 Ted Hill
7 Curry
8 Dombrandt

9 Mitchell
10 Farrell
11 May
12 Slade
13 Lawrence
14 Thorley
15 Watson

That's a great backline for Farrell to waste. I'd prefer either Simmonds or Ford to be at 10.

Ted Hill and Dombrandt is a bit heavy for an Eddie backrow. I think he'd prefer two more openside style flankers in the back three and I would to.

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Post by Gooseberry Tue 20 Oct 2020, 2:35 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I can certainly understand having an eye on Italy and the need for a bonus point win to put us in a position to win the title however I'd like more of the wider squad to get a chance. Personally I'd want Genge hill Dombrandt and thorley to get starts, watson full back. I'd also like to see Mitchell get a half from the bench.

Theres Georgia too so plenty of opportunities to run through a wider squad and rotate even if we discount the Barbarians game as the joke it is. The weight of injuries already in place combined with the inevitable toll the back to back games will cause also means we will see new faces.

Might also be a very big ask for the core Exeter players to go from playing 6 games (5 against top sides, 2 semis and a 2 finals) straight into four back to back internationals. Maybe they will be considered for the Italy game, although their prep time with the squad will be minimal, but if so Id expect a rest later in the series (Georgia).

I suspect we are going to see a bit of a selection merry go round. Maybe thats why they have been so conservative in sticking by the tried and tested half backs regardless of form, at least wanting to ensure theres a core of experienced playmakers who get the England system.

We will see anyway, right now its just a good thing we have a six nations completion even if it wont count if England win.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 20 Oct 2020, 2:37 pm

With Manu injured the sides loses a lot of carrying so I actually expect we will see some forward packs with more carriers picked over the coming months.

1.Genge
2.Cowan-Dickie
3.Sinckler
4.Itoje
5.J Hill
6.T Hill
7.Curry
8.Vunipola

16.George 17.Vunipola 18.Stuart 19.Launchbury 20.Underhill 21.Wilson

Something like that against Georgia would be great to see. A lot of carrying in the pack and quality on the bench. Still plenty of experience there as well.

The battle between George and LCD for the starting shirt is going to get closer I think. George is absolute quality but LCD has sorted his lineout throwing, is renowned as being a strong scrummager, is carrying more and more (the tell tale Chiefs tap and go from close penalties...), plus his breakdown work is excellent. Each has different strengths but LCD is going to be pushing George really hard I think. A great position to be in at hooker.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 20 Oct 2020, 4:18 pm

When will the Exeter, Bristol and Wasps players be allowed to join the squad? Will there be another squad announcement then...or just additions to the squad.

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 20 Oct 2020, 4:46 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:When will the Exeter, Bristol and Wasps players be allowed to join the squad? Will there be another squad announcement then...or just additions to the squad.

Technically Bristol (or Wasps) could be added on Thursday, as decision on Wasps final participation will happen then. However I doubt there will be additions this week. This then leaves us to next week. Eddie expressly stated this was a squad for the Barbarians, so my guess is that next Monday there will be a brand new squad named for Italy, with the following week an 8 Nations Squad named.

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 20 Oct 2020, 4:46 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/oct/20/elliot-daly-england-barbarians-eddie-jones-rugby-union

"Elliot Daly out of England's clash against Barbarians with mystery leg injury"

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Post by cb Tue 20 Oct 2020, 5:27 pm

I would love to see Slade given a proper go at inside centre.  We seems to have several good 13's even with Manu injured - Joseph, Marchant, Lawrence.  Probably could think of others but no standout 12's.  I know this raises question marks about Ford/Farrell but we do not seem to be getting the best out of Slade.

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Post by Guest Tue 20 Oct 2020, 6:06 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:He wasnt hiding on the weekend against a pretty much international multi million pound side??

Hmm. Is it necessary to repeat again that club rugby isn't test rugby?

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Post by Guest Tue 20 Oct 2020, 6:10 pm

I would forget about Simmonds tbh. Both of them.

Eddie Jones showed the way he selects players. He's not going to change now. He doesn't give caps away for the sake of it. Curry in particular and Underhill have broken through since Simmonds last played and now Curry is being selected over Simmonds at 8. No issue there. Look at the 9 shirt, he didn't waste caps on players he didn't deem good enough. He stuck with Youngs through thick and thin. Care shot himself in the foot and it gave the Kiwi a chance.

He won't be blooding all the in form Prem players in spite of how well they play club rugby. He hasn't over the last 4 years so why would he start now? Alex Goode is the perfect example: a good club player doesn't necessarily make a good test player.

This applies to more than just the Simmonds' or the (lack of) options in the 8 shirt. It clearly applies elsewhere. Why deprive the guys you will actually rely on game time and experience for the sake of 'having a look'?

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Post by Guest Tue 20 Oct 2020, 6:13 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:7.5 i can see it going this way

Baa baas - play strongest lineup to dust of the cobwebs, and give a few of the hopefuls a run off the bench.
Italy - Play strongest side to win.

The rest of the games...mix it up..first teamers and big hopefuls..

Again, where does EJ's form suggest this will happen?

He's on record as well as the players are of saying their training sessions are tougher than matches. He did the same thing with Japan.

Why would he select the full team v the BaBas yet 'mix it up' against proper opposition? Erm

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 20 Oct 2020, 6:33 pm

cb wrote:I would love to see Slade given a proper go at inside centre.  We seems to have several good 13's even with Manu injured - Joseph, Marchant, Lawrence.  Probably could think of others but no standout 12's.  I know this raises question marks about Ford/Farrell but we do not seem to be getting the best out of Slade.

When he broke through I was half expecting him to end up there for exeter but seemed to get 13 as Steenson was playing excellently at fly half and Hill was doing well at 12. Given the chance hes excelled for exeter but hasn't caught fire as yet for england. I'd like to see him and Lawrence get some time together though. That could be a nice partnership.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 20 Oct 2020, 6:34 pm

LondonTiger wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/oct/20/elliot-daly-england-barbarians-eddie-jones-rugby-union

"Elliot Daly out of England's clash against Barbarians with mystery leg injury"
Cheers LT. It seemed very unlikely that Daly would be dropped. I still think 13 is his best position to be honest. You'd just need plenty of carrying in the forwards and maybe on the wing (Nowell or Cokanasiga offer that) without Manu fit.

Marchant is a great prospect at 13 though and came back from his stint with the Blues an even better player.

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Post by cb Tue 20 Oct 2020, 7:07 pm

if everyone was fit and on form I would like to see the following as outside backs

11 May
12 Slade
13 Lawrence
14 Cokanasiga
15 Watson

9 & 10 I am not so sure - Robson/Spencer Ford/Farrell (you might think Robson/Farrell as one combination and Spencer /Ford)

Even with the above there are still many good players left out - Marchant, Nowell, Daley, Manu injured, etc.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 20 Oct 2020, 8:23 pm

If Spencer isn't in the squad now I doubt he will be added regardless of what fans think. Rumours are that Robson will be included when available, hopefully he gets a couple of starts.

I'd really like to see a Slade and Marchant centre pairing at some point.

9.Youngs
10.Farrell
11.May
12.Slade
13.Marchant
14.Nowell
15.Watson

I think Nowell is showing form to warrant a run of starts as well.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 20 Oct 2020, 10:01 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:I would forget about Simmonds tbh. Both of them.

Eddie Jones showed the way he selects players. He's not going to change now. He doesn't give caps away for the sake of it. Curry in particular and Underhill have broken through since Simmonds last played and now Curry is being selected over Simmonds at 8. No issue there. Look at the 9 shirt, he didn't waste caps on players he didn't deem good enough. He stuck with Youngs through thick and thin. Care shot himself in the foot and it gave the Kiwi a chance.

He won't be blooding all the in form Prem players in spite of how well they play club rugby. He hasn't over the last 4 years so why would he start now? Alex Goode is the perfect example: a good club player doesn't necessarily make a good test player.


This applies to more than just the Simmonds' or the (lack of) options in the 8 shirt. It clearly applies elsewhere. Why deprive the guys you will actually rely on game time and experience for the sake of 'having a look'?

Having seen Johnny Williams (selected by Eddie to play against the Baabaas) and Thompkins both go Welsh. Addison and Haley go Irish. The other home nations will be sniffing around other players. The WRU are interested in Heyes who's included in the squad having not looking quite so effective since he lost weight over lockdown (took up running, needs to bulk up a bit). 

I wouldn't be surprised to see him cap a few players over the 8 games just to ensure they are secured for England. 

Joe Simmonds is one that he may very much consider. He's 6 years younger than Farrell. The next RWC is about three years away and Farrell is 29. Joe is also the captain of the European Champions, says a lot when the squad accept a younger captain despite their being experienced internationals in there. Add in defensively sound, good kicker off the tee and is comfortable attacking ball in hand then there's a lot to like. He's more international rugby ready then any other England flyhalf outside of Ford and Farrell.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Wed 21 Oct 2020, 8:23 am

Don't disregard Mitchell at 9, he has the best pass of any of the contenders, fast and accurate, kicks well and some amazing distances from defensive scrums and is greased lightening in the sprint stakes.

At 23 he is the youngest and least experienced, but that could count as a plus if Jones is looking long term. Also, he has been through all the England age grade teams from 16 to 20.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 21 Oct 2020, 9:16 am

Wonder if there'll be some Bristol players dropped in now: wasps confirmed for the final.

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Post by lostinwales Wed 21 Oct 2020, 9:57 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wonder if there'll be some Bristol players dropped in now: wasps confirmed for the final.

Let me see, Sinckler, Earl and outside chance of Thacker and Malins?

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 21 Oct 2020, 10:03 am

rugby racing and beer wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:7.5 i can see it going this way

Baa baas - play strongest lineup to dust of the cobwebs, and give a few of the hopefuls a run off the bench.
Italy - Play strongest side to win.

The rest of the games...mix it up..first teamers and big hopefuls..

Again, where does EJ's form suggest this will happen?

He's on record as well as the players are of saying their training sessions are tougher than matches. He did the same thing with Japan.

Why would he select the full team v the BaBas yet 'mix it up' against proper opposition? Erm

Because the Baas Baas is a warm up for the 6n final game v Italy which he will want to win heavily. The other games technically are friendlies where he can look at different combos and players.

Some of his go to players arent available as often due to injury these days - Mako and Billy being two that immediately come to mind. kruis is gone, Lawes unavailable, etc etc.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 21 Oct 2020, 10:04 am

Randall is getting a bit of chat mainly from the welsh mistakenly thinking he qualifies for them though. Not sure hes good enough for international level but hes in better form than youngs.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 21 Oct 2020, 10:22 am

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Don't disregard Mitchell at 9, he has the best pass of any of the contenders, fast and accurate, kicks well and some amazing distances from defensive scrums and is greased lightening in the sprint stakes.

At 23 he is the youngest and least experienced, but that could count as a plus if Jones is looking long term. Also, he has been through all the England age grade teams from 16 to 20.
I'd love Mitchell to get a run of starts. Youngs and Heinz being in the squad doesn't suggest much movement there though.

Maunder and Mitchell both have great chances to establish themselves though with the quality incumbents at their respective clubs moving on. I rate both really highly.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 21 Oct 2020, 5:55 pm

Ford is out of the Baabaas game after aggravating a pre-existing achilles injury.

Farrell at 10 gives an interesting decision at 12. Presumably between Lawrence and Francis. I hope Lawrence gets given a go.

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Post by lostinwales Wed 21 Oct 2020, 6:01 pm

king_carlos wrote:Ford is out of the Baabaas game after aggravating a pre-existing achilles injury.

Farrell at 10 gives an interesting decision at 12. Presumably between Lawrence and Francis. I hope Lawrence gets given a go.

Does that make Francis back up 10?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 21 Oct 2020, 6:01 pm

Sinckler Earl and Malins called into the squad as well. That injury to ford might be very well timed for Malins.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 21 Oct 2020, 6:19 pm

From a Tigers perspective I was hoping Sinckler would miss the Baabaas game so that Heyes could get a game - uncapped I know.

1.Vunipola 2.George 3.Sinckler 4.Itoje 5.Ewels 6.Underhill 7.Curry 8.Vunipola
9.Youngs 10.Farrell 11.May 12.Lawrence 13.Joseph 14.Watson 15.Furbank

16.Dunn 17.Genge 18.Stuart 19.Moon 20.Wilson 21.Heinz 22.Malins/Francis 23.Marchant

That'd be my prediction from the current squad. Had Ford been fit I think that Jones would continued with the 6-2 split but it's harder to cover the whole back line with 2 subs when Ford and Faz aren't both starting.

I guess Earl might come in for Wilson given that he has played more recently.

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Post by mikey_dragon Wed 21 Oct 2020, 7:31 pm

king_carlos wrote:From a Tigers perspective I was hoping Sinckler would miss the Baabaas game so that Heyes could get a game - uncapped I know.

Me too, following in the footsteps of Johnny Williams...

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Post by Guest Wed 21 Oct 2020, 7:32 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:I would forget about Simmonds tbh. Both of them.

Eddie Jones showed the way he selects players. He's not going to change now. He doesn't give caps away for the sake of it. Curry in particular and Underhill have broken through since Simmonds last played and now Curry is being selected over Simmonds at 8. No issue there. Look at the 9 shirt, he didn't waste caps on players he didn't deem good enough. He stuck with Youngs through thick and thin. Care shot himself in the foot and it gave the Kiwi a chance.

He won't be blooding all the in form Prem players in spite of how well they play club rugby. He hasn't over the last 4 years so why would he start now? Alex Goode is the perfect example: a good club player doesn't necessarily make a good test player.


This applies to more than just the Simmonds' or the (lack of) options in the 8 shirt. It clearly applies elsewhere. Why deprive the guys you will actually rely on game time and experience for the sake of 'having a look'?

Having seen Johnny Williams (selected by Eddie to play against the Baabaas) and Thompkins both go Welsh. Addison and Haley go Irish. The other home nations will be sniffing around other players. The WRU are interested in Heyes who's included in the squad having not looking quite so effective since he lost weight over lockdown (took up running, needs to bulk up a bit). 

I wouldn't be surprised to see him cap a few players over the 8 games just to ensure they are secured for England. 

Joe Simmonds is one that he may very much consider. He's 6 years younger than Farrell. The next RWC is about three years away and Farrell is 29. Joe is also the captain of the European Champions, says a lot when the squad accept a younger captain despite their being experienced internationals in there. Add in defensively sound, good kicker off the tee and is comfortable attacking ball in hand then there's a lot to like. He's more international rugby ready then any other England flyhalf outside of Ford and Farrell.

I think for a player like Joe Heyes, in a position of relative lack of depth in the game, and where you're never quite sure how good they will be, that kind of thinking might apply. But I genuinely don't think national coaches are capping players just to take them away from other nations unless they want them. At least, I don't think EJ does that. Williams and Tompkins weren't good enough for England tbh.

How many players has he handed out fewer than 10 caps to? It would be interesting. I know for Japan he capped an incredibly small number of players to keep his core group the same and to create a true team based on quality. As far as I can tell he has done the same with England. He has his core, he replaced Robshaw/Haskell once they were too old, and then he has...what I can only call 'good trainers'. Ludlaw, the Bath winger etc. Clearly not the most talented but they're maxing out their talent and won't rock the boat while still providing excellent internal competition in training. It's not that they're mugs, it's just he seems to select these straight up, decent, solid players over someone with perhps more talent but also more flaws.

On Simmonds, I don't see the class of Ford or Farrell in him. Decent player but he plays behind a monster of a pack. Again, Exeter are more than the sum of their parts, great club, great team, fully deserve the plaudits and success. He'll obviously pick up a cap eventually but I don't think he's the answer to replace Ford or Farrell.


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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 21 Oct 2020, 9:22 pm

king_carlos wrote:Ford is out of the Baabaas game after aggravating a pre-existing achilles injury.

Farrell at 10 gives an interesting decision at 12. Presumably between Lawrence and Francis. I hope Lawrence gets given a go.

I know im splitting hairs but isnt Lawrence a 13.

I always wanted Slade to settle at 12. Id love to see him really get a good run out in that spot as a 2nd playmaker and have a runner at 13 like Marchant or Lawrence.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Thu 22 Oct 2020, 2:08 pm

Ford out of the Babas game after aggravating a pre-existing injury. That could make for an interesting selection. Only one 10 left in the squad now (Farrell) with Malins a 50/50 fly half and Francis a part time one. Outside shot, Furbank who has played there for Saints and looked very good.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 22 Oct 2020, 5:59 pm

Barbarians players being idiots and breaching protocols has put the match in jeopardy. It'll be announced tomorrow at 3 as to whether the match can be played.

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Post by king_carlos Thu 22 Oct 2020, 7:47 pm

Bristol players have joked that they could fill in having been on standby for the Prem final. Not sure how Pat Lam would feel about it.

The other option depending on positions required would be to release a few from the England squad that aren't needed for their 23. Simon Kerrod and Tom de Glanville were already in the Baabaas squad having been training with England.

The Baabaas squad was 11 Saracens, 7 Fijians, 2 Kiwis, Robshaw, McFadden, Kerrod and de Glanville. I wonder who's been naughty?

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Post by RDW Thu 22 Oct 2020, 10:14 pm

picard

This is a real embarrassment for the BaBas and rugby in general - I just can't fathom what wen through their minds to think it was a good idea.

It's really not difficult - don't go to pubs and restaurants when you're a professional sports person operating in a bubble having signed a strict participation agreement saying you were not going to do that!!

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Post by king_carlos Thu 22 Oct 2020, 10:57 pm

RDW wrote:picard

This is a real embarrassment for the BaBas and rugby in general - I just can't fathom what wen through their minds to think it was a good idea.

It's really not difficult - don't go to pubs and restaurants when you're a professional sports person operating in a bubble having signed a strict participation agreement saying you were not going to do that!!
Apparently the Baabaas need 12 players to make up the numbers. Guardian running that they went out for dinner. Robshaw, Wigglesworth, Wray and Maitland rumoured to be among them.

Guess they were thinking we're two groups of six, we're at different tables, technically we're one household at the moment anyway. Idiotic however it's spun. Rugby is hardly renowned for it's intelligence levels but even so this is out there!

That's Maitland second public coronavirus muck up if true after their wee coffee jaunt back in May when things were still in fever pitch. Moronic. I wonder if it will affect him joining the Scotland bubble?

The Bristol twitter response really made me laugh. If Lam is happy for them to play they've got some quality. Radrada, Piutau, Luatau, Thacker, Randall. Those guys would be great fun in a Baabaas side.

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Post by king_carlos Thu 22 Oct 2020, 11:07 pm

Suggestions Tom de Glanville is one of them as well. If true I reckon that's him getting nowhere near a training squad again under Jones.

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Post by RDW Fri 23 Oct 2020, 2:16 am

king_carlos wrote:
RDW wrote:picard

This is a real embarrassment for the BaBas and rugby in general - I just can't fathom what wen through their minds to think it was a good idea.

It's really not difficult - don't go to pubs and restaurants when you're a professional sports person operating in a bubble having signed a strict participation agreement saying you were not going to do that!!
Apparently the Baabaas need 12 players to make up the numbers. Guardian running that they went out for dinner. Robshaw, Wigglesworth, Wray and Maitland rumoured to be among them.

Guess they were thinking we're two groups of six, we're at different tables, technically we're one household at the moment anyway. Idiotic however it's spun. Rugby is hardly renowned for it's intelligence levels but even so this is out there!

That's Maitland second public coronavirus muck up if true after their wee coffee jaunt back in May when things were still in fever pitch. Moronic. I wonder if it will affect him joining the Scotland bubble?

The Bristol twitter response really made me laugh. If Lam is happy for them to play they've got some quality. Radrada, Piutau, Luatau, Thacker, Randall. Those guys would be great fun in a Baabaas side.

I really hope they don't try and excuse it, as there really isn't any excuse! Regardless of whether it was within government guidelines, professional sport needs to live by a stricter set of rules and they all signed up to that.

The BaBas have certainly not tried to excuse it and have been pretty blunt in their response to what the players did!

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Post by Guest Fri 23 Oct 2020, 8:25 am

If it was a drinking session, that's hrd to excuse. If it's just a meal, I'm struggling to see the 'practical' issue. There's far too much neurosis around utterly arbitrary and constantly changing rules that appear to have relatively limited success in actually preventing the spread of the virus anyway. I think a bit of perspective is needed. The hand wringing and moralising seems like an excuse as much as anything else to bring out the inner Captain Mainwaring. But, as said, if it was for a piss up then I find that harder to defend, if not impossible. A meal's a meal.

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Post by Soul Requiem Fri 23 Oct 2020, 8:33 am

rugby racing and beer wrote:If it was a drinking session, that's hrd to excuse. If it's just a meal, I'm struggling to see the 'practical' issue. There's far too much neurosis around utterly arbitrary and constantly changing rules that appear to have relatively limited success in actually preventing the spread of the virus anyway. I think a bit of perspective is needed. The hand wringing and moralising seems like an excuse as much as anything else to bring out the inner Captain Mainwaring. But, as said, if it was for a piss up then I find that harder to defend, if not impossible. A meal's a meal.

Not how it works in the slightest. If you enter a bubble and collectively are all found to be negative the only way for Covid-19 to then enter the bubble is for someone to leave and re-enter when they shouldn't, these are regulations that all players agreed to from the start.

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Post by Guest Fri 23 Oct 2020, 8:41 am

But it is how it works in practice. This 'bubble' isn't some magical forcefield that protects people from getting the virus. By no means is the only means of transmission a result of someone leaving and re-entering this 'bubble' - which is honestly just jargon, I can't quite believe people have taken to using such terms so willingly.

Go and have a look at the touchlines during any match and tell me that these 'bubbles' are somehow sacrosanct. Media, benches, coaches, officials...you name it, all mixing, half not wearing masks, several in the 'danger zone' when it comes to age and weight. And that's just the televised 80 minutes or so, let alone every minute of every day within these 'bubbles'. It's nonsense. You cannot keep people in proverbial bubble wrap in a pro rugby environment.

So, that's why I say, in practical terms this is no big deal. It's just something for the Anglo Saxon instinct for puritanism and adhering to rules to kick in and the British inclination to sneer at others with a false sense of superiority tbh combining to create a culture where we moan about people 'breaking the rules' even when the rules stopped making sense months ago. This is by no means the worst example ofc but it's just another 'who cares' scenario for me. I'm not being glib about the virus or its effects, merely cynicl to the attitude towards preventing its spred.

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Post by Irish Londoner Fri 23 Oct 2020, 8:54 am

rugby racing and beer wrote:But it is how it works in practice. This 'bubble' isn't some magical forcefield that protects people from getting the virus. By no means is the only means of transmission a result of someone leaving and re-entering this 'bubble' - which is honestly just jargon, I can't quite believe people have taken to using such terms so willingly.

Go and have a look at the touchlines during any match and tell me that these 'bubbles' are somehow sacrosanct. Media, benches, coaches, officials...you name it, all mixing, half not wearing masks, several in the 'danger zone' when it comes to age and weight. And that's just the televised 80 minutes or so, let alone every minute of every day within these 'bubbles'. It's nonsense. You cannot keep people in proverbial bubble wrap in a pro rugby environment.

So, that's why I say, in practical terms this is no big deal. It's just something for the Anglo Saxon instinct for puritanism and adhering to rules to kick in and the British inclination to sneer at others with a false sense of superiority tbh combining to create a culture where we moan about people 'breaking the rules' even when the rules stopped making sense months ago. This is by no means the worst example ofc but it's just another 'who cares' scenario for me. I'm not being glib about the virus or its effects, merely cynicl to the attitude towards preventing its spred.

The bubble does have a certain amount of medical value, however in the context of team sports, it's also about control in terms of liability - no team wants to be the one that get the finger pointed for bringing an outbreak of CV19 into the sport - it's a very small chance but if the game goes ahead with the players who broke curfew and then the England players have an outbreak.......

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Post by Guest Fri 23 Oct 2020, 9:00 am

Oh yeah, I understand it from that perspective. I suppose the conflation of the practical concerns for sport - not wanting whole series cancelled, least of all the most lucrative in terms of tv coverage nd sponsorship - with the scolding moralising tone as if they've done something terrible that will kill X number of people is what I tke issue with. Not saying it's happening here on this forum. It is elsewhere though. Perhaps I just need to not read twitter tbh. It's one big collective neurotic squeal. I do still think it's literally impossible to remain 'bubbled' in a professional environment. Even something as mundane as travel incurs constant 'breaking' of the rules. A meal out could...could...be done sensibly and carefully. But I suppose it probably wasn't and there were a few drinks involved.

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Post by king_carlos Fri 23 Oct 2020, 9:22 am

Sounds like Cardiff's Will Boyde, Max Llewellyn and Ioan Davies have been added to the Baabaas squad.

Nemani Nadolo has joined Bristol by having some fun on twitter saying he wants to play.

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Post by RDW Fri 23 Oct 2020, 9:31 am

Whatever your view on the effectiveness of bubbles and Covid in general, the bottom line is the players signed an agreement not to do this kind of thing, they did it anyway, and now a high profile game, commercial revenues and the reputation of the Barbarians has taken a big hit. If the game ends up cancelled because of this then that's a huge issue in rugby terms.

I agree it shouldn't turn into a personal which hunt of each of the players, but there's absolutely no justifying what they did.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 23 Oct 2020, 10:06 am

The Barbarians seem really annoyed to say the least. I'm genuinely surprised Robshaw is one of the fools who the finger is being pointed at. Of all the people you'd think captain sensible would have followed everything and got a bit of a swan song against England.

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