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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 19 Oct 2020, 10:17 am

Stolen the body of this from https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/54596746:

Exeter chairman Tony Rowe says that director of rugby Rob Baxter's ambition could be to coach England.
Baxter masterminded Exeter's first-ever European Champions Cup win on Saturday and has led the Chiefs to five successive Premiership finals.
Baxter, who was in charge when Exeter were promoted to the Premiership in 2010, is contracted until 2023.
"I think I know that eventually his ambition may be to coach England," Rowe told BBC Radio 5 Live.

Baxter has previously helped coach England when he assisted Stuart Lancaster on the tour to Argentina in 2013.
He has long been tipped as a future England boss, but ruled out applying for the job in 2015 when Lancaster resigned after the 2015 World Cup.
Exeter face Wasps at Twickenham on Saturday looking for a second Premiership title to add to the one they won for the first time in 2017.
"Since 1998 when I took over the running of the club my ambition was always to be in the Premiership and win the European (Champions Cup)," added Rowe.
"Rob was a player then and we've had this shared ambition for the last 11 years that he's been our head coach and director of rugby.
"Having achieved it, him and I spoke after the game in Bristol and said 'Rob we're there mate, we've made it, what are we going to do next?' and he said 'we'll do it again won't we?'."

Nothing really new here but Baxter obviously pushes himself a bit nearer the job now should he want it. Exeter were the nearly men for years but now clearly were at a disadvantage the job Baxter and his team have done is obvious for all to see. Jones looks pretty well set in England now but things can change pretty rapidly in sport. Personally I think if Jones were to step aside now for whatever reason it would be between 3 men to get the job Baxter, Mitchell or McCall. Despite Saracens cheating its undeniable in how well he got players performing along with their team spirit. Given England play a not too dissimilar way to Saracens it may not be the leap it would be for Baxter?

If Jones were to make it longer term there finally seems to be some green shoots of English coaches as well in the prem in Blackett and Hooper and of course Lam from further afield. There is also Farrell over in Ireland and I'm keen to see how Parling gets on Down Under.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 19 Oct 2020, 11:02 am

Cant see many changes anywhere in the short term.

Baxter will want to reinforce the European win, by winning it again and proving it wasnt a fluke and confirm their dominance in England..... especially if Wasps spoil the party...

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Post by Poorfour on Mon 19 Oct 2020, 11:50 am

I really like Rob Baxter. What he's done with Exeter is extraordinary, and his ability to deliver balanced, incisive insights on his own team whether things are going well or badly speaks to a very sharp rugby brain.

The big thing against him at the moment is that he has never operated in an International environment - either as a player or a coach - and it is a huge and difficult step up, particularly for the RWC.

So the question is how to enable him to make that step at the right time (which isn't likely to be this RWC cycle). One option is for him to serve an international "apprenticeship" - whether as an assistant coach to someone else, or as the coach of a minor nation - but given his level of experience and success as a head coach and DoR, he might not be willing to do that and it might not be the right thing for him.

Another might be for him to step straight into the role, but with a support structure that includes some experienced international coaches. I think that's partly what the RFU has done by bringing Conor O'Shea into the structure after his experience with Italy - he now has much more experience of international rugby and coach development, and can provide some of that support. If Eddie could be persuaded to stick around in a consultancy / mentoring role that could well be ideal.

The final idea that strikes me - though I have no idea if it's workable - is that Eddie likes to shake up his coaching in the run up to the RWC. I could see Baxter being brought in after the 2022 Autumn Internationals to work on some specific aspect of the preparations, carrying through the RWC with the expectation that he is one of the candidates to pick up the Head Coach role after the tournament.

On the other hand, Baxter is relatively young and clearly a man who is very capable of playing a long game. I could envisage him taking on a variety of short term roles to gain experience - perhaps taking on the U20s alongside his Exeter job, or stepping in for the England tour when it's a Lions year, until he's built up the skills to be ready for the transition.

It seems more likely than not that he will do the job one day and do it well, but I suspect he will be more concerned about ensuring he's equipped to make a success of it than rushing to take the job.
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Post by lostinwales on Mon 19 Oct 2020, 2:38 pm

The only issue I would have is that international coaching and club coaching are different roles. International is much less hands on. Would that suit him?

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Post by rugby racing and beer on Mon 19 Oct 2020, 7:16 pm

Not Rob Baxter.

Club coaching and test coaching are two different beasts. Baxter has done wonders at Exeter but his strengths don't appear to lie in test coaching, they're in recruitment, culture, and the benefit of nurturing local talent as much as anything tactical. Rob Hunter is responsible for a lot of Exeter's tactical successes.

Eddie Jones is a perfect example that competence and winning, above all else, defines a successful test coach. Lancaster was not quite that man.

Going for Baxter seems like a step backwards for England but perhaps the options are limited. If I were the RFU I'd do everything to try to recruit Gatland and Edwards to be honest. Or try to keep EJ around as long as possible.

We're about to come to that weird generational crossover where all the young and talented coaches have been fully professional from their playing days and in some ways that should mean no more jobs for the boys, everyone based on merit, but I do think professionalism can mask some personal failings for coaches - some who have the gift of the gab, for instance, or know how to profit from other people's ability but take the credit. I think the era of the 'great' head coaches might be about to end and we might be moving towards something where you whole staff matter more than the main guy in charge. Rugby changes every couple of months, even weeks, these days as analysis has come so far. Being able to constantly adapt and innovate will be a key trait and I think that comes from a team, not just one man.

I wouldn't go for Baxter but you can see why he would want the job.

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 19 Oct 2020, 8:03 pm

Baxter is very smart. I'd bet he's smart enough to adapt. That is a different issue from just asking if he'd enjoy it, going from being so intrically linked with Exter.

I think going to Gatland would be a backward step but either way we won't have to worry about it for a couple of years.

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Post by rugby racing and beer on Mon 19 Oct 2020, 9:50 pm

If not Gatland then I think England should look abroad. Either a Saffa or Kiwi or Australian again. What works in club rugby in England doesn't seem to suit what English players need at test level, they need to be allowed to dominate and lose the 'polite loser' mentality that Lancaster epitomised.

I also think the media would tear Baxter apart. He's basically known nothing other than Exeter and even with the success they've had, for whatever reason he's managed to duck a lot of scrutiny. He's not really the figurehead and the press hasn't stuck their teeth in to Exeter, partly because they haven't been able to. The international press that comes with England coach is on a whole other level and I can see some rabid national and international pressure getting to Baxter. He's too honest for his own good sometimes and the fact he wouldn't really play games in the press could play against him. EJ knows how to use them to his advantage and he still clearly suffered in 2018.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 20 Oct 2020, 8:32 am

rugby racing and beer wrote:Not Rob Baxter.

Club coaching and test coaching are two different beasts. Baxter has done wonders at Exeter but his strengths don't appear to lie in test coaching, they're in recruitment, culture, and the benefit of nurturing local talent as much as anything tactical. Rob Hunter is responsible for a lot of Exeter's tactical successes.

Eddie Jones is a perfect example that competence and winning, above all else, defines a successful test coach. Lancaster was not quite that man.

Going for Baxter seems like a step backwards for England but perhaps the options are limited. If I were the RFU I'd do everything to try to recruit Gatland and Edwards to be honest. Or try to keep EJ around as long as possible.

We're about to come to that weird generational crossover where all the young and talented coaches have been fully professional from their playing days and in some ways that should mean no more jobs for the boys, everyone based on merit, but I do think professionalism can mask some personal failings for coaches - some who have the gift of the gab, for instance, or know how to profit from other people's ability but take the credit. I think the era of the 'great' head coaches might be about to end and we might be moving towards something where you whole staff matter more than the main guy in charge. Rugby changes every couple of months, even weeks, these days as analysis has come so far. Being able to constantly adapt and innovate will be a key trait and I think that comes from a team, not just one man.

I wouldn't go for Baxter but you can see why he would want the job.

Oh dear lord...so you completely discount a young coach who has built a team which is dominating England and now just wont the European cup...but champion those two..

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 20 Oct 2020, 10:14 am

Baxter has of course dipped his toe in international coaching for those who don't keep up entirely with the ins and outs. Just think english coaching is in a much better place than it wasn10 years ago. Really promising.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 20 Oct 2020, 10:23 am

A lot will depend on how they set up the coaching team.

Baxter is very much a DoR rather than a Head Coach, while Eddie is definitely fulfilling the role of a Head Coach. I cannot see Baxter successfully replacing Eddie within the current framework, but he could very easily do a Woodward job ensuring all the jigsaw pieces are in place to allow the coaches to drive England forward.

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Post by lostinwales on Tue 20 Oct 2020, 10:26 am

I wonder where Borthwick will fit into all of this.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 20 Oct 2020, 10:27 am

lostinwales wrote:I wonder where Borthwick will fit into all of this.

Let's see if he is still in a job at Leicester in 12 months time. Shocked

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 20 Oct 2020, 10:28 am

Borthwick has a great rep. If he can turn around Leicester he should definitely be one of the main contenders as they look completely at sea.

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Post by Poorfour on Tue 20 Oct 2020, 10:44 am

LondonTiger wrote:A lot will depend on how they set up the coaching team.

Baxter is very much a DoR rather than a Head Coach, while Eddie is definitely fulfilling the role of a Head Coach. I cannot see Baxter successfully replacing Eddie within the current framework, but he could very easily do a Woodward job ensuring all the jigsaw pieces are in place to allow the coaches to drive England forward.

Baxter was Head Coach of Exeter until a couple of years ago, as I recall, and I also think the DoR role a Premiership club is closer to an International Head Coach role than a Head Coach is - the DoR job is focused more on selection, recruitment and assembling the coaching team than hands-on coaching, whereas a club head coach is effectively coaching day to day. Eddie is more hands on than most but he still only gets a handful of days a year with the squad and most of his day to day role is around watching players and giving them (and their clubs) direction on their development needs rather than directly coaching.
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Post by Recwatcher16 on Tue 20 Oct 2020, 11:18 am

It is hard to argue that Baxter wont be a prime candidate, either in the next RWC cycle or the one beyond. A thoroughly decent man who doesnt engage in the pre-match banter, much like Lancaster, but who was then often portrayed in the media as being out of his depth.
The media have met their match in EJ and that hugely helps England's preparation, particularly with away games. The coach also needs an element of luck in timing with players coming through and opposition sides being at different points of development. France are on the up with Wales and Ireland on the cusp of change in a number of positions. The club academies appear to be starting to churn out significant numbers of players capable of premiership rugby and beyond into the test arena. Interesting times in this lull before the run-up to the next RWC.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 20 Oct 2020, 11:44 am

Where does Lancaster sit in "the frame"

He's acquiring alot of experience...would he be considered...and would he be interested after the last time?

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Post by lostinwales on Tue 20 Oct 2020, 11:48 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Where does Lancaster sit in "the frame"

He's acquiring alot of experience...would he be considered...and would he be interested after the last time?

I was thinking the same thing. I would guess a lot depends on his relationship with the RFU. I don't think he'd be offered the top job again but could fit well into a coaching role if he wanted it.

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Post by Poorfour on Tue 20 Oct 2020, 2:45 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Where does Lancaster sit in "the frame"

He's acquiring alot of experience...would he be considered...and would he be interested after the last time?

Lancaster probably needs another job on his CV before he can look at England again - a successful stint as Head Coach of a Tier 2 nation would show that he's addressed the flaws he had in his man management, particularly if he can demonstrate that he can balance the intensity and fun elements of a training camp (Marler's book is very good on this - contrasting Lancaster's overly serious approach and - by implication - Johnson's excess faith in his former team mates, against Eddie's knack for getting just the right balance).

I also suspect that Lancaster is a bit like Andy Robinson and John Kingston - his best role is as a technical, hands on head coach, and not in the DoR / selection / tone from the top role.
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Post by TightHEAD on Tue 20 Oct 2020, 3:35 pm

I think Baxter is the man for England but I think he'll want to enjoy what he has built in Exeter for a few more seasons, maybe after the next RWC will be his ideal time to take over the top job.
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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 20 Oct 2020, 4:49 pm

Poorfour wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Where does Lancaster sit in "the frame"

He's acquiring alot of experience...would he be considered...and would he be interested after the last time?

Lancaster probably needs another job on his CV before he can look at England again - a successful stint as Head Coach of a Tier 2 nation would show that he's addressed the flaws he had in his man management, particularly if he can demonstrate that he can balance the intensity and fun elements of a training camp (Marler's book is very good on this - contrasting Lancaster's overly serious approach and - by implication - Johnson's excess faith in his former team mates, against Eddie's knack for getting just the right balance).

I also suspect that Lancaster is a bit like Andy Robinson and John Kingston - his best role is as a technical, hands on head coach, and not in the DoR / selection / tone from the top role.

Agreed. A coaching team of Baxter & Lancaster could work really well, with each of them effectively performing their current club role.

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Post by Poorfour on Tue 20 Oct 2020, 4:52 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Where does Lancaster sit in "the frame"

He's acquiring alot of experience...would he be considered...and would he be interested after the last time?

Lancaster probably needs another job on his CV before he can look at England again - a successful stint as Head Coach of a Tier 2 nation would show that he's addressed the flaws he had in his man management, particularly if he can demonstrate that he can balance the intensity and fun elements of a training camp (Marler's book is very good on this - contrasting Lancaster's overly serious approach and - by implication - Johnson's excess faith in his former team mates, against Eddie's knack for getting just the right balance).

I also suspect that Lancaster is a bit like Andy Robinson and John Kingston - his best role is as a technical, hands on head coach, and not in the DoR / selection / tone from the top role.

Agreed. A coaching team of Baxter & Lancaster could work really well, with each of them effectively performing their current club role.

We could call it a coaching team with BaLance.

I'll get me coat.
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Post by rugby racing and beer on Tue 20 Oct 2020, 5:46 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:Not Rob Baxter.

Club coaching and test coaching are two different beasts. Baxter has done wonders at Exeter but his strengths don't appear to lie in test coaching, they're in recruitment, culture, and the benefit of nurturing local talent as much as anything tactical. Rob Hunter is responsible for a lot of Exeter's tactical successes.

Eddie Jones is a perfect example that competence and winning, above all else, defines a successful test coach. Lancaster was not quite that man.

Going for Baxter seems like a step backwards for England but perhaps the options are limited. If I were the RFU I'd do everything to try to recruit Gatland and Edwards to be honest. Or try to keep EJ around as long as possible.

We're about to come to that weird generational crossover where all the young and talented coaches have been fully professional from their playing days and in some ways that should mean no more jobs for the boys, everyone based on merit, but I do think professionalism can mask some personal failings for coaches - some who have the gift of the gab, for instance, or know how to profit from other people's ability but take the credit. I think the era of the 'great' head coaches might be about to end and we might be moving towards something where you whole staff matter more than the main guy in charge. Rugby changes every couple of months, even weeks, these days as analysis has come so far. Being able to constantly adapt and innovate will be a key trait and I think that comes from a team, not just one man.

I wouldn't go for Baxter but you can see why he would want the job.

Oh dear lord...so you completely discount a young coach who has built a team which is dominating England and now just wont the European cup...but champion those two..

Why the faux outrage? Gatland and Edwards repeatedly took a decent but not exactly world class Welsh team(s) and got them to the latter stages of World Cups. Bar the self defeating Welsh mindset, there ought to have been at least one RWC final appearance in there as well.

Club rugby isn't test rugby.

You can keep your melodrama to yourself.

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Post by rugby racing and beer on Tue 20 Oct 2020, 5:49 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Where does Lancaster sit in "the frame"

He's acquiring alot of experience...would he be considered...and would he be interested after the last time?

No chance. You never go back.

Ireland should snap him up when Andy Farrell gets found out to be a fraud.

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Post by rugby racing and beer on Tue 20 Oct 2020, 5:55 pm

If England want to recruit within England, rather than overseas (there will be a few Antipodeans missing out on their preferred jobs in 3 years time), then I'd look at Pat Lam. The right mix of professionalism, genuine grit, and no bull competence that EJ has brought to England.

Moving away from EJ and back to an English coach just for the sake of being English would be an idiotic move by the RFU, but it's not out of the question.

Hiring Baxter for the sake of it 'just because' it seems like they should reward his club success would be a classic RFU blunder. I like Baxter but he has all the hallmarks of being Lancaster Part 2. I don't see what McCall brings either. Similar principle in terms of their dominance comes from their hiring strategies - and now we have proof that, for so long, that strategy was breaking the rules.

Lam has a lot more credit in the bank than either candidate. If England don't nab him I can see Ireland and Wales circling for his signature.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 20 Oct 2020, 6:35 pm

Lancaster is clearly a talented coach. I'm sure he'd go back to england if he were asked but doubt the rfu would head hunt him for the top job.

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Post by rugby racing and beer on Tue 20 Oct 2020, 7:38 pm

Why are you sure? I'd be confident he harbours deep disatisfaction with the way he was hung out to dry in 2015. Ireland is the next stop for him.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Wed 21 Oct 2020, 5:58 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Borthwick has a great rep. If he can turn around Leicester he should definitely be one of the main contenders as they look completely at sea.

If he can turn round Leicester, he should be given a knighthood!

Can't see Lancaster wanting to come any where near the England set-up and the same with the RFU....this was not a happy split.

I really like Baxter and he is the obvious candidate. If he wants the job I think it will be a formality personally.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 21 Oct 2020, 7:13 am

And if they got Baxter Pooly I think they'd let him have whoever he wants to support him.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Wed 21 Oct 2020, 7:41 am

No doubt, but Lancaster....oh my.

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Post by Recwatcher16 on Wed 21 Oct 2020, 9:05 am

Lancaster must realise, as an ex test coach, that he is a relatively big fish currently operating in a relatively smaller pond, league wise. When the Pro14 put out their test sides they are a different prospect but the league is currently struggling for credibility, which is not healthy for the sport. Hopefully that will change with the big SA sides.
I wonder how much longer Boyd has at Saints? It would be a perfect fit for Lancaster and another English coach in the Premiership.

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Post by rugby racing and beer on Wed 21 Oct 2020, 6:55 pm

Lancaster was in a tricky sitch post-2015. He was given a job he wasn't qualified for, with no playing or 'in game' pedigree, and made a decent if ultimately flawed fist of things. To be strung out like that could have ended his career (and a great reason why he won't go back to England).

He will be a better coach now for the experience he went through and the realisations he has made on how he failed. He has done well to not end up becoming yesterday's man, doing an Andy Robinson or becoming another coach who takes on a tier 2 team and just stagnates.

The obvious move is to replace Farrell if/when the Ireland project doesn't work. He obviously won't go and work as his assistant but I don't see what Lancaster would gain by leaving Leinster to go to an English club. He's regained a massive amount of credibility at Leinster and the Irish players clearly love him. It appears to be a better fit as well in terms of his coaching and what the players enjoy.

I also wouldn't rule out Lancaster as the first Lions coach to replace Gatland. It would require a step up from Leinster but it doesn't seem out of the question.

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Post by nlpnlp on Fri 23 Oct 2020, 9:22 pm

Do people think England would be successful playing the Exeter way - if Baxter got the job?  Personally I think not.  So you could pick any coaches you wanted, but if they tried to play the Exeter way then I do not think they would be successful. To a degree that is what Eddie Jones has done - he has coached a completely different style of rugby to what Saracens (or Exeter or any English club team have played).  Saracens have been the top team in Europe and England throughout the period Eddie has been England coach but he has not tried to play the Saracens way for England.  I think think this is because he knew playing that way would not be successful.

If any Saracens fans disagree please let me know.  I am a big fan of lots of Saracens players - Alex Goode being one - but don't think their style would be successful at international level.  Hence no one calling for Mark McCall to be England coach.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 23 Oct 2020, 9:29 pm

They've played very similar to saracens in a lot of ways. And McCall and baxter are close to the top of the picks because they're successful.

England unlike a lot of sides are not limited to 1 style of play. A coach could pick any type of play and have the players to fill it.

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Post by rugby racing and beer on Fri 23 Oct 2020, 10:02 pm

England don't play like Saracens. They also can't play a number of different ways. Lancaster tried to do that, unsurprisingly it didn't work. I agree with the premise that Baxter, or any English coach, coming in and looking to replicate what worked with them in the Prem will fail.

For me, Lam has significantly more pedigree than Baxter or any English coach. Coached all over, coached different 'types' of teams, coched internationally.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 23 Oct 2020, 11:01 pm

Yeah england will be able to pick and choose I agree. So many different styles of players and now coaches getting experience else where will help a load. It's the coaching which will make the heap of difference. Suddenly there looks loads of options.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sat 24 Oct 2020, 10:49 am

We are in danger of assuming that Baxter can only coach to play one way, just because he has coached Exeter to be a side that play a game largely based on power and perseverance does not mean that given a different set of players he could not coach to play a different style. It suited Exeter with the player base he had, he has continued it because it works.

We have all seen Exeter play an expansive game when they want to, the likes of Slade, Nowell, Hogg, O'Flaherty are all made for a running game as well as being defensively sound.

If plan 1 is working, why go to plan 2. When they are sufficiently in the lead they can and often do cut loose to great effect.

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Post by lostinwales on Sat 24 Oct 2020, 11:28 am

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:We are in danger of assuming that Baxter can only coach to play one way, just because he has coached Exeter to be a side that play a game largely based on power and perseverance does not mean that given a different set of players he could not coach to play a different style. It suited Exeter with the player base he had, he has continued it because it works.

We have all seen Exeter play an expansive game when they want to, the likes of Slade, Nowell, Hogg, O'Flaherty are all made for a running game as well as being defensively sound.

If plan 1 is working, why go to plan 2. When they are sufficiently in the lead they can and often do cut loose to great effect.

You could take the evidence of the fact that none of the other teams in the premiership play the same way that Exeter does as proof of Baxter's adaptability. He has found his own way with that set of players that is just that little bit different from the mainstream.

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Post by rugby racing and beer on Sat 24 Oct 2020, 6:02 pm

It's not so much about Baxter coaching 'one' way, per se, as it is having vast experience as a club coach and expecting that to translate to the test arena.

It's obviously a completely different manner of building a team and the biggest strengths in Exeter are basically impossible to create in an international environment due to lack of time together, pairing club adversaries together etc.

In terms of the actual rugby, Exeter almost have a moneyball approach to taking players who are undervalued by other clubs and putting them in an environment where they become a cog that maximises its potential while having its weaknesses limited (due to a relatively conservative but mostly structured gameplan).

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Post by lostinwales on Sat 24 Oct 2020, 9:01 pm

Yeah nobody values Hogg or Gray.

As for the rest, There are a few who were considered journeymen who just needed a polish. Others I guess nobody rated them until they had been through Exeter's academy

Academy products

BRITISH & IRISH LIONS
Jack Nowell

ENGLAND INTERNATIONALS
Luke Cowan-Dickie
Jack Maunder
Ben Moon
Jack Nowell
Sam Simmonds
Henry Slade

ENGLAND SAXONS
Luke Cowan-Dickie
Dave Ewers
Sam Hill
Henry Slade

ENGLAND UNDER-20s
Jack Arnott
Richard Capstick
Josh Caulfield
Joel Conlon
Luke Cowan-Dickie
Sam Hill
Jack Innard
Billy Keast
James Kenny
Jack Maunder
Sam Maunder
Jack Nowell
Alfie Petch
Joe Simmonds
Sam Skinner
Henry Slade
Jack Stanley
Marcus Street
Stuart Townsend
Rusiate Tuima
Charlie Wright

ENGLAND UNDER-18s
Richard Capstick
Josh Caulfield
Luke Cowan-Dickie
Sam Hill
Jack Maunder
Sam Maunder
Jack Nowell
Alfie Petch
Henry Slade
Jack Stanley
Marcus Street
Charlie Wright

ENGLAND STUDENTS
Paul Davis
Ed Holmes
Pete Laverick
Tom Lawday

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Post by rugby racing and beer on Sat 24 Oct 2020, 10:45 pm

lostinwales wrote:Yeah nobody values Hogg or Gray.

As for the rest, There are a few who were considered journeymen who just needed a polish. Others I guess nobody rated them until they had been through Exeter's academy

Academy products

BRITISH & IRISH LIONS
Jack Nowell

ENGLAND INTERNATIONALS
Luke Cowan-Dickie
Jack Maunder
Ben Moon
Jack Nowell
Sam Simmonds
Henry Slade

ENGLAND SAXONS
Luke Cowan-Dickie
Dave Ewers
Sam Hill
Henry Slade

ENGLAND UNDER-20s
Jack Arnott
Richard Capstick
Josh Caulfield
Joel Conlon
Luke Cowan-Dickie
Sam Hill
Jack Innard
Billy Keast
James Kenny
Jack Maunder
Sam Maunder
Jack Nowell
Alfie Petch
Joe Simmonds
Sam Skinner
Henry Slade
Jack Stanley
Marcus Street
Stuart Townsend
Rusiate Tuima
Charlie Wright

ENGLAND UNDER-18s
Richard Capstick
Josh Caulfield
Luke Cowan-Dickie
Sam Hill
Jack Maunder
Sam Maunder
Jack Nowell
Alfie Petch
Henry Slade
Jack Stanley
Marcus Street
Charlie Wright

ENGLAND STUDENTS
Paul Davis
Ed Holmes
Pete Laverick
Tom Lawday

Terrible chat from you. The Exeter approach has been moneyball from the very start when they were in the Championship: taking unheralded players who will do a job within a specific gameplan. Is that wrong? No. That they happen to now be the best team in Europe and can bring in good international players (Hogg and Gray are not Habana and Bakkies, this is not French style recruitment) is willfully (I think...?) missing the point for the sake of making a snide comment just for the sake of it.

The point still remains: how Baxter has been successful is not something that can be done at test level. Recruitment doesn't really exist, nor does building a stable culture that permeates the whole org. Odd point about the academy. It just shows how tapping in to potential at club/regional level can be done. Great example for the Welsh regions or perhaps the Irish and Scots, irrelevant to the credentials of the future England coach. But perhaps you forgot the topic...?

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Post by nlpnlp on Sat 24 Oct 2020, 11:33 pm

Apologies - I am guilty as charged. I think Rob Baxter is a great club 'coach', but unconvinced that he can convert that to International rugby. Until/unless he gets the chance we will never know. It is a reasonable question to ask, it just is not reasonable to write him off. If not Baxter, then who else is knocking down the door to be England's next coach?

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Post by lostinwales on Sun 25 Oct 2020, 1:30 am

rugby racing and beer wrote:.....

Terrible chat from you. The Exeter approach has been moneyball from the very start when they were in the Championship: taking unheralded players who will do a job within a specific gameplan. Is that wrong? No. That they happen to now be the best team in Europe and can bring in good international players (Hogg and Gray are not Habana and Bakkies, this is not French style recruitment) is willfully (I think...?) missing the point for the sake of making a snide comment just for the sake of it.

The point still remains: how Baxter has been successful is not something that can be done at test level. Recruitment doesn't really exist, nor does building a stable culture that permeates the whole org. Odd point about the academy. It just shows how tapping in to potential at club/regional level can be done. Great example for the Welsh regions or perhaps the Irish and Scots, irrelevant to the credentials of the future England coach. But perhaps you forgot the topic...?

Well that told me, obviously Exeter is just a bunch of rejects and neither have a successful academy nor are they the only professional club in a real hotbed of amateur rugby. None of that Cornish talent ever end up playing for them. You seem to have built your entire argument over the career of Philip Dollman.

At the start of the season 29 out of 60 of their squad was home grown. Not the highest but most squads were around that level

Lets look at the squad that played in the Euro cup final

Hogg; Nowell, Slade, Whitten, O'Flaherty; J Simmonds (capt), Maunder; Hepburn, Cowan-Dickie, Williams, Gray, Hill, Ewers, Vermeulen, S Simmonds.

7 academy players. 2 scottish internationals, 1 Irish international, 2 props who started elsewhere but didn't play any appreciable rugby other than at Exeter and 1 South African. That leaves precisely 2 'moneyball' players. O'Flaherty who played lower level in Wales before playing for Ospreys and Jonny Hill, formerly of Gloucester and soon to be of England. I can't be arsed to look for comparisons with other teams but I am sure they all have a couple of guys who have floated around but found their home there.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sun 25 Oct 2020, 6:30 am

The 2 outstanding club candidates are Baxter and McCall, both of whom have shown they can get the very best out of players.

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Post by rugby racing and beer on Sun 25 Oct 2020, 7:12 pm

...one of whom has just seen his club relegated for breaking the salary cap for years.

There's far too much binary thinking in the media. If Dai Young had Saracens' resources, what would he have done?

Baxter is better than McCall for me. Different demands, different attributes, Exeter's rise is more impressive as it's not been done the Man City way like Saracens have done.

But I'll state again, there are very different demands coaching club v test rugby. If England pick Baxter it'll be an odd decision given what EJ will have taught them relative to Lancaster.

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Post by rugby racing and beer on Sun 25 Oct 2020, 7:13 pm

lostinwales wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:.....

Terrible chat from you. The Exeter approach has been moneyball from the very start when they were in the Championship: taking unheralded players who will do a job within a specific gameplan. Is that wrong? No. That they happen to now be the best team in Europe and can bring in good international players (Hogg and Gray are not Habana and Bakkies, this is not French style recruitment) is willfully (I think...?) missing the point for the sake of making a snide comment just for the sake of it.

The point still remains: how Baxter has been successful is not something that can be done at test level. Recruitment doesn't really exist, nor does building a stable culture that permeates the whole org. Odd point about the academy. It just shows how tapping in to potential at club/regional level can be done. Great example for the Welsh regions or perhaps the Irish and Scots, irrelevant to the credentials of the future England coach. But perhaps you forgot the topic...?

Well that told me, obviously Exeter is just a bunch of rejects and neither have a successful academy nor are they the only professional club in a real hotbed of amateur rugby. None of that Cornish talent ever end up playing for them. You seem to have built your entire argument over the career of Philip Dollman.

Terrible logical fallacy, I didnt bother reading the rest as I can't give someone the time of day when they're so unwilling to discuss in good faith. I have no idea why you of all users has an issue with me given the other issues I run in to from other people on this site but it's super boring.

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Post by lostinwales on Sun 25 Oct 2020, 10:13 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:.....

Terrible chat from you. The Exeter approach has been moneyball from the very start when they were in the Championship: taking unheralded players who will do a job within a specific gameplan. Is that wrong? No. That they happen to now be the best team in Europe and can bring in good international players (Hogg and Gray are not Habana and Bakkies, this is not French style recruitment) is willfully (I think...?) missing the point for the sake of making a snide comment just for the sake of it.

The point still remains: how Baxter has been successful is not something that can be done at test level. Recruitment doesn't really exist, nor does building a stable culture that permeates the whole org. Odd point about the academy. It just shows how tapping in to potential at club/regional level can be done. Great example for the Welsh regions or perhaps the Irish and Scots, irrelevant to the credentials of the future England coach. But perhaps you forgot the topic...?

Well that told me, obviously Exeter is just a bunch of rejects and neither have a successful academy nor are they the only professional club in a real hotbed of amateur rugby. None of that Cornish talent ever end up playing for them. You seem to have built your entire argument over the career of Philip Dollman.

Terrible logical fallacy, I didnt bother reading the rest as I can't give someone the time of day when they're so unwilling to discuss in good faith. I have no idea why you of all users has an issue with me given the other issues I run in to from other people on this site but it's super boring.

I bothered to spend the time to research the background of the Exeter squad to show that your argument is rubbish. If you had any aim to argue in good faith you would have bothererd to read it. Easier to insult

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 26 Oct 2020, 8:06 am

Trying to think who hasn't come to Exeter and improved. Cuthbert has been a bit of a failure. Honestly struggling then. Kvesic never really improved to what I thought he could but more likely was about his peak.
Baxter ticks a lot of boxes.

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Post by Poorfour on Mon 26 Oct 2020, 9:50 am

rugby racing and beer wrote:...one of whom has just seen his club relegated for breaking the salary cap for years.

There's far too much binary thinking in the media. If Dai Young had Saracens' resources, what would he have done?

Baxter is better than McCall for me. Different demands, different attributes, Exeter's rise is more impressive as it's not been done the Man City way like Saracens have done.

But I'll state again, there are very different demands coaching club v test rugby. If England pick Baxter it'll be an odd decision given what EJ will have taught them relative to Lancaster.

Which comes back to what I said at the top: very few coaches - almost nobody in the professional era - have been able to make the step up from club to international rugby and make an immediate success of a full RWC cycle. Perhaps Joe Schmidt is the best example, but even then he was ultimately undone once Eddie worked out how to counter Ireland's game plan.

It would be daft to rule Baxter out of the international running just because he's only coached at club level to date, but it would be equally daft to assume he could step straight into the top job and make a success of it. I would expect him to go into international coaching at some point, but - as a coach who has repeatedly shown that he is very willing to play a long game - I would also expect him to take a Tier 2 job or an assistant job at Tier 1 to get used to the environment and learn the ropes.

The key thing for England for prospective future coaches is coach development and succession planning: making sure that there are a pool of candidates who have the right mix of experience ahead of the time they are needed. I believe that's one of the to dos on Conor O'Shea's job description (and something he himself has done - going from Quins to Italy for an RWC cycle before coming back to the RFU).
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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 26 Oct 2020, 11:09 am

rugby racing and beer wrote:

But I'll state again, there are very different demands coaching club v test rugby. If England pick Baxter it'll be an odd decision given what EJ will have taught them relative to Lancaster.

What club coaching had Lancaster really done?

Your really trying to compare Baxter and Lancasters coaching histories?? Wow...

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 28 Oct 2020, 10:17 am

Baxter on Brian Moore s podcast is a good listen. Highlights the very similar process of analysis, development, player availability etc. Says that the amount of reviews you do as a coach you're very embedded. The short term nature of internationals is compared to the loss of club players to internationals and short term set ups with covid. Spot on really and obviously having coached england before knows what hes on about.

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