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Australia & NZ: The Antipodean Rugby Thread (including Bledisloe games)

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Post by Guest Sat 31 Oct - 8:40

First topic message reminder :

Game's kicking off, may as well make a match thread.

EDIT: May as well make it a rolling thread.


Last edited by rugby racing and beer on Sat 7 Nov - 15:40; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Guest Sat 14 Nov - 11:25

ebop wrote:‘Aura’

The ABs have lost their ‘aura’

Does any other team have this thing called ‘aura’

Serious queston

Hehehehe. Here he is.

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Post by Guest Sat 14 Nov - 11:26

Collapse2005 wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:Yeah I think it's fair to say that the aura from 5 years ago has well and truly gone.

To get beaten by that Argentinian team, considering where it's been pre-lockdown, is a shocker.

I dunno I think its been coming for a while, this is a good Argentina side and they have had some close encounters with NZ in recent years. Id say they would beat any team if they played them as much as they play NZ now.

Really? You saw this coming?! Argentina have been absolutely she-height for 2-3 years now. They pushed a dog turd NZ team in a world cup warm up but then bottled it at the last minute. I can't say I saw a win coming in this particular game given how much rugby each side has played. Not at all.

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Post by TJ Sat 14 Nov - 11:30

That argentinian performance would have beaten andy NH team easily IMO, talk about brick wall defense!

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Post by mikey_dragon Sat 14 Nov - 11:40

ebop wrote:‘Aura’

The ABs have lost their ‘aura’

Does any other team have this thing called ‘aura’

Serious queston

I doubt it. If this is NZ playing poorly then they still look pretty good. I think everyone would feel it if you lose Read, Rettalick and Hansen. It doesn’t seem like the gap left by Conrad Smith has been plugged. He was a mainstay during each rebuild lasting over a decade and he was the best in the world.

Ignore the trolls. Mods don’t seem to want to deal with the individual, but at some point enough will be enough and we can all enjoy the forum again Smile. Personally I mostly hate coming here right now.

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Post by ebop Sat 14 Nov - 11:56

rugby racing and beer wrote:
ebop wrote:‘Aura’

The ABs have lost their ‘aura’

Does any other team have this thing called ‘aura’

Serious queston

Hehehehe. Here he is.
Who do you support again, I forget, just for the record
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Post by Collapse2005 Sat 14 Nov - 12:11

rugby racing and beer wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:Yeah I think it's fair to say that the aura from 5 years ago has well and truly gone.

To get beaten by that Argentinian team, considering where it's been pre-lockdown, is a shocker.

I dunno I think its been coming for a while, this is a good Argentina side and they have had some close encounters with NZ in recent years. Id say they would beat any team if they played them as much as they play NZ now.

Really? You saw this coming?! Argentina have been absolutely she-height for 2-3 years now. They pushed a dog turd NZ team in a world cup warm up but then bottled it at the last minute. I can't say I saw a win coming in this particular game given how much rugby each side has played. Not at all.

Yes, thought they would beat them in last years rugby championship, they lost by 4 points. The previous 3 or 4 rugby championship games were all tight enough games with NZ always pulling away in the last quarter.

The Jaguares have also got wins, including away wins against all NZ super rugby sides except the Crusaders who they lost to last season on the final. Argentina have exceptionally talented players who I believed would be good enough to beat NZ and were building towards it. Away wins v Australia and SA in recent years also hinted at what they were capable of

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Post by mikey_dragon Sat 14 Nov - 12:13

Arg haven't had great coaches in recent years. They seem to have them now. Hopefully Jaguares get back up and running as I feel that certainly helps them. They're not good as good as that famous team mind containing Corletto et al, but they might get there.

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Post by Old Man Sat 14 Nov - 15:14

The Argentinian squad at the RWC was overplayed and fatigued.

This Argentinian team was well rested, highly motivated, passionate and showed intensity.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Sat 14 Nov - 16:41

ebop wrote:‘Aura’

The ABs have lost their ‘aura’

Does any other team have this thing called ‘aura’

Serious queston
No they don't hence why the AB brand is so strong in comparison to everyone else in rugby. It's the reason why even the Maori ABs can attract big crowds in places like North and South America, the AB brand is build around being the most dominant team and the team everyone wants to beat. However the more they lose the more their "aura" starts to dissipate and they really have lost quite a few games now since 2015.  The more they lose the more the brand gets weakened and all of a sudden, who knows the ABs can't charge their appearance fees up north leading to decreased revenue and more players lost up north.

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Post by Guest Tue 17 Nov - 19:18

ebop wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:
ebop wrote:‘Aura’

The ABs have lost their ‘aura’

Does any other team have this thing called ‘aura’

Serious queston

Hehehehe. Here he is.
Who do you support again, I forget, just for the record

Bournemouth FC.

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Post by Guest Tue 17 Nov - 19:20

Old Man wrote:The Argentinian squad at the RWC was overplayed and fatigued.

This Argentinian team was well rested, highly motivated, passionate and showed intensity.

True, but they also had Michael Cheika. Definitely an underrated coach due to his personality. I'd imagine most people up here would think Stuart Lancaster is a 'better' coach - primarily because of culture and personality biases. Cheika's clearly not the full package and had run his course with the Wallabies but given how poor Argentina were under Ledesma, I'd put as much stock in Cheika coming in and adding focus and direction to a team that looked hopeless as much as any sort of rest break.

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Post by Guest Tue 17 Nov - 19:23

Collapse2005 wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:Yeah I think it's fair to say that the aura from 5 years ago has well and truly gone.

To get beaten by that Argentinian team, considering where it's been pre-lockdown, is a shocker.

I dunno I think its been coming for a while, this is a good Argentina side and they have had some close encounters with NZ in recent years. Id say they would beat any team if they played them as much as they play NZ now.

Really? You saw this coming?! Argentina have been absolutely she-height for 2-3 years now. They pushed a dog turd NZ team in a world cup warm up but then bottled it at the last minute. I can't say I saw a win coming in this particular game given how much rugby each side has played. Not at all.

Yes, thought they would beat them in last years rugby championship, they lost by 4 points. The previous 3 or 4 rugby championship games were all tight enough games with NZ always pulling away in the last quarter.

The Jaguares have also got wins, including away wins against all NZ super rugby sides except the Crusaders who they lost to last season on the final. Argentina have exceptionally talented players who I believed would be good enough to beat NZ and were building towards it. Away wins v Australia and SA in recent years also hinted at what they were capable of

Fair enough, but that was still a bin juice NZ side they failed to beat last year. I can't say I saw that win coming, not like that, and I find it odd anyone else could. The Jaguares playing well has coincided almost perfectly with the Pumas' decline so, again, I wouldn't really call that a positive 'sign', either.

Let us know next time you see such a shock result like this coming!

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Post by Collapse2005 Wed 18 Nov - 15:37

Im not sure I would say the Pumas were in decline although yeah on paper they didn't have their best year last year if you look at results alone. In the rugby championship Argentina lost all games but the ones v Australia and NZ were 1 score games and very competitive. Don't agree it was a bad NZ side.

In the world cup they lost their first game by 2 points to a decent France team and then got a red card in their key group game v England and their chances were over before they started.

To be honest I think SA were arguably just as bad as the Pumas for the four years preceding the RWC and they went on to win it. Their win loss rate was only a little better.

This Argentina has a top quality first squad of players, however, their pool of top professionals isn't as good as most sides so their form is always going to be a bit up and down.

Any team as good as Argentina that plays NZ every year will eventually beat them so its hardly a massive shock. Their first ever game v NZ was only in 1985, they when from playing them 13 times in the following 20 years to 18 times in 10 years when they joined the rugby championship. Ireland for example have played NZ the same amount as Argentina over 100 years rather than 30.

A side as good as Argentina it was always going to come.


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Post by Old Man Wed 18 Nov - 15:51

South Africa under Coetzee was pants. His win rate was the lowest of any Bok coach in the professional era.

Rassie took over in 2018 and only won 50% of his matches in 2018, but everyone of those games bar one was within a score.

In 2019 he lost one and drew one, the rest is history.

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Post by Collapse2005 Wed 18 Nov - 18:24

Old Man wrote:South Africa under Coetzee was pants. His win rate was the lowest of any Bok coach in the professional era.

Rassie took over in 2018 and only won 50% of his matches in 2018, but everyone of those games bar one was within a score.

In 2019 he lost one and drew one, the rest is history.

Yeah SA always more or less have the players so no one was overly surprised when they turned it around. Likewise albeit obviously to a lesser extent in my opinion Argentina have class players too so Im not surprised that they with a good coaching group can get big results too.

Kramer, Sanchez and Matero get all the headlines because they are class but I was personally delighted for Francisco Gomez Kodela because of the job he did in the front row and because I know his brother.

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Post by Guest Wed 18 Nov - 19:29

It wasn't just last year, Argentina were much weaker from the end of 2015-2019 than they were from 2011-2015. This is a surprise result for sure - not because they aren't good players, but because they had been underperforming for so long.

All reports are Ledesma is more of a man manager and a bit of a nasty one at that. Not much of a tactical genius. I'm surprised he's head coach. Cheika's similar but a much better manager of players and, frankly, has a good track record across the world. He might not be a tactical genius but he's at least astute and having the freedom to observe the ABs play Australia over the last few weeks evidently identified weaknesses in the ABs team and exploited them. That wasn't particularly hard to see from the outside, NZ seem to have learned nothing from the last 3 years of underperformance/poor results by their standards. Getting results is a different matter from just seeing and talking about those weaknesses though, so fair play to everyone involved.

It's good to have Argentina and France looking like they're at least back to par again, but I don't want to speak too soon about the Pumas. Shame that Wales have decided to trade places with them as persistent underperformers.

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Post by Guest Wed 18 Nov - 19:32

In all fairness the starting 15 for the 16-20 game last year wasn't that bad, it was the bench that was bin juice for NZ. That was my abiding memory of them camped on their own line in the dying minutes: the game was there for the taking against a scratch NZ team but they failed to take it.

Subs

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18 Nepo Laulala
19 Jackson Hemopo
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22 Josh Ioane
23 Braydon Ennor

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Post by Gooseberry Sat 28 Nov - 9:59

All Blacks looking to play a lot more fancy stuff today but only one try so far. Their inability to turn red zone possession into tries is reminiscent of Ireland. Will feel they should be a lot further ahead than 10-0

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Post by Gooseberry Sat 28 Nov - 10:29

Floodgates open in the last 20 ...two quick tries from interceptions with Argentina trying to force their way back into the game. Says a bit about rugby at the moment, NZ camped on the Argentian try line for most of the game struggling to score...the minute Argentina get some play they ship tries. Probably also an element of NZ bench strength and teh fatigue of Argentina defending so hard for so long. Last 10 could be very tough

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 29 Nov - 2:25

How can any Rugby team which hasn't played or trained formally for 7-12 months due to Covid-19 be able to maintain it for 3 top level International matches.  Makes the result against the ABs and wallabies more amazing.  Watch this, I found a version with English subtitles.  For me, I am extremely impressed..........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNZ5TdLFaMQ

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 1 Dec - 8:21

Matera dropped due to racism. A real hero to zero story.

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 1 Dec - 9:23

Not wanting to excuse Matera for whatever it was he said, but it would only be fair to point out that these are historic posts on twitter made when he was a teenager. People make mistakes.

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Post by Old Man Tue 1 Dec - 9:27

LondonTiger wrote:Not wanting to excuse Matera for whatever it was he said, but it would only be fair to point out that these are historic posts on twitter made when he was a teenager. People make mistakes.

The social media awareness of people really is a dangerous avenue, the self awareness of individuals prone to post stuff for everyone to see and the recognition craved on social media platforms can really bit you in the arse later in life.

Best is to stay offline, keep opinions to yourself.

Yes he was a teenager, but even teenagers need to act responsibly.

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Post by Gooseberry Tue 1 Dec - 9:30

Does put a different spin on things when you actually read past the headline doesn't it!

Realistically he's only going to lose the captaincy rather than being banned for any games, the timing of dealing with this seems evident they left it till after the last fixture was done to manage the fall out. By the time the next Argentina / Jagures fixture rolls around this will be long forgotten.


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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 1 Dec - 10:05

I read past the headline. Not sure it makes it acceptable or particularly forgettable like.

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 1 Dec - 10:10

Old Man wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Not wanting to excuse Matera for whatever it was he said, but it would only be fair to point out that these are historic posts on twitter made when he was a teenager. People make mistakes.

The social media awareness of people really is a dangerous avenue, the self awareness of individuals prone to post stuff for everyone to see and the recognition craved on social media platforms can really bit you in the arse later in life.

Best is to stay offline, keep opinions to yourself.

Yes he was a teenager, but even teenagers need to act responsibly.

Agreed, and he is taking the punishment with a level of class and contrition that suggests he accepts that.

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 1 Dec - 10:12

No 7&1/2 wrote:I read past the headline. Not sure it makes it acceptable or particularly forgettable like.

Hopefully no-one is suggesting his posts were acceptable. People may not forget, but hopefully they can forgive. He certainly seems to be accepting he was wrong and facing up to his mistakes in a much better way than some in the past (thinking about the Anton Ferdinand documentary that was out this week amongst others).

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 1 Dec - 10:14

Yeah. His comments and those of Argentina today/yesterday in accepting and not washing over it are welcome. The fact it was when he was teenager means little to me. And yes the Ferdinand programme jumped to my mind as well. There are actual real life people who side with Terry still. Madness.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 1 Dec - 10:18

LondonTiger wrote:
Old Man wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Not wanting to excuse Matera for whatever it was he said, but it would only be fair to point out that these are historic posts on twitter made when he was a teenager. People make mistakes.

The social media awareness of people really is a dangerous avenue, the self awareness of individuals prone to post stuff for everyone to see and the recognition craved on social media platforms can really bit you in the arse later in life.

Best is to stay offline, keep opinions to yourself.

Yes he was a teenager, but even teenagers need to act responsibly.

Agreed, and he is taking the punishment with a level of class and contrition that suggests he accepts that.

Most people make errors as teenagers. Having them saved forever on social media where nosey journos can dig them up at a later date when they want to take a pop at you isn't ideal. I'm sure Matera very much regrets the posting but with these things I think there does need to be a little leeway. Good to hear he's taking his punishment in the appropriate fashion and this should be put behind him quickly.

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Post by Collapse2005 Tue 1 Dec - 10:20

LondonTiger wrote:Not wanting to excuse Matera for whatever it was he said, but it would only be fair to point out that these are historic posts on twitter made when he was a teenager. People make mistakes.

I agree, we all do dumb stuff when we are young and times do change. A suspension should do the trick. It wasnt just Matera, two other Pumas were involved.

What they said was nasty, it comes from growing up in a privilidged background where maids are common place and racism in newspapers wasnt uncommon. You used to see headlines in Argentina like 4 people and 2 Bolivians die in bus crash in Salta etc.


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Post by Soul Requiem Tue 1 Dec - 10:24

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah. His comments and those of Argentina today/yesterday in accepting and not washing over it are welcome. The fact it was when he was teenager means little to me. And yes the Ferdinand programme jumped to my mind as well. There are actual real life people who side with Terry still. Madness.

What was the documentary like? Always had a lot of time for both Ferdinands, the ability to talk eloquently about such things is rare for footballers.

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 1 Dec - 10:24

Sack the journalist for pathetically digging it up. Not a good look but Matera has accepted it and apologised, nothing more he can do really except continue being the heartbeat of his nation.

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Post by Old Man Tue 1 Dec - 10:27

LondonTiger wrote:
Old Man wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Not wanting to excuse Matera for whatever it was he said, but it would only be fair to point out that these are historic posts on twitter made when he was a teenager. People make mistakes.

The social media awareness of people really is a dangerous avenue, the self awareness of individuals prone to post stuff for everyone to see and the recognition craved on social media platforms can really bit you in the arse later in life.

Best is to stay offline, keep opinions to yourself.

Yes he was a teenager, but even teenagers need to act responsibly.

Agreed, and he is taking the punishment with a level of class and contrition that suggests he accepts that.

Yes, that is admirable, not everyone will be as upfront and show regret for being stupid.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 1 Dec - 10:27

Soul Requiem wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah. His comments and those of Argentina today/yesterday in accepting and not washing over it are welcome. The fact it was when he was teenager means little to me. And yes the Ferdinand programme jumped to my mind as well. There are actual real life people who side with Terry still. Madness.

What was the documentary like? Always had a lot of time for both Ferdinands, the ability to talk eloquently about such things is rare for footballers.

It's good. I'd recommend a watch. The amount of abuse he's got and is getting is just beyond belief.

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 1 Dec - 10:29

Soul Requiem wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah. His comments and those of Argentina today/yesterday in accepting and not washing over it are welcome. The fact it was when he was teenager means little to me. And yes the Ferdinand programme jumped to my mind as well. There are actual real life people who side with Terry still. Madness.

What was the documentary like? Always had a lot of time for both Ferdinands, the ability to talk eloquently about such things is rare for footballers.

I heard snippets on the radio. The death threats Anton received were appalling, that some one sent him a bullet in the post with his name on it completely abhorent.

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Post by Soul Requiem Tue 1 Dec - 10:31

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah. His comments and those of Argentina today/yesterday in accepting and not washing over it are welcome. The fact it was when he was teenager means little to me. And yes the Ferdinand programme jumped to my mind as well. There are actual real life people who side with Terry still. Madness.

What was the documentary like? Always had a lot of time for both Ferdinands, the ability to talk eloquently about such things is rare for footballers.

It's good. I'd recommend a watch. The amount of abuse he's got and is getting is just beyond belief.

Dare I say it but that's the tribalism of football fans, that Terry received a rapturous applause during his last Chelsea appearance always irritated me.

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 1 Dec - 10:40

I think the incident that summed Terry up perfectly for me was when he was banned from the Champions League final, yet was there on the pitch in his kit celebrating the win.

Of course this, shagging his team mates wives AND boasting about it in the changing room, using his position as England captain to sell visits to Wembley for personal gain are monor crimes, but all help portray his character.

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Post by Soul Requiem Tue 1 Dec - 10:46

LondonTiger wrote:I think the incident that summed Terry up perfectly for me was when he was banned from the Champions League final, yet was there on the pitch in his kit celebrating the win.

Of course this, shagging his team mates wives AND boasting about it in the changing room, using his position as England captain to sell visits to Wembley for personal gain are monor crimes, but all help portray his character.

When you look at the overall character of he and Suarez it's not surprising the pair racially abused opponents.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 3 Dec - 8:34

They've all been forgiven for their racism and straight back in. Isnt that nice.

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Post by Old Man Thu 3 Dec - 9:39

No 7&1/2 wrote:They've all been forgiven for their racism and straight back in. Isnt that nice.

They are not back in, Matera was given his captaincy back, but the three suspended players are not playing this weekend.

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Post by Gooseberry Thu 3 Dec - 9:54

Old Man wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:They've all been forgiven for their racism and straight back in. Isnt that nice.

They are not back in, Matera was given his captaincy back, but the three suspended players are not playing this weekend.

Suspensions lifted on all of them, so yeah not back in the matchday side but only because the logistics wouldnt be possible.

From what I've read it seems there was a player revolt to back them. Seems a very weak move form the Union and really undermines their authoirty regardless of OPINIONS on the ban itself.

Would the bans have extended past this weekend into any scheduled games? I'd assumed it was a bit of a token gesture in the first place.

Im sure Joe Marler will be leading the international outcry against this.

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Post by Old Man Thu 3 Dec - 10:37

From what I understand the ban would have been maintained until they had a hearing (supposedly once back home) and now they decided previous behaviour over the past years were good enough.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 3 Dec - 10:45

They are great men, fine examples and have kids now. Let's just forget all this.

Slightly depressing how racism has reared its head much more publically recently.

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Post by mikey_dragon Thu 3 Dec - 11:28

I'm just wondering were they U18 or U20 at the time, playing at a tournament in SA? Playing for Argentina? I think I read that they were departing SA at the time of the tweets. You never know, they may have had an unpleasant experience or run-in with somebody, that's not to say it makes racist views and comments acceptable. Some will choose to hate and abuse them forever over this incident, I don't think that's quite right. From what I've seen of Matera he is a great guy, and seems very remorseful.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 3 Dec - 11:55

I think the majority of society certainly in the uk are more than happy to move and say its not an issue.

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Post by Old Man Thu 3 Dec - 12:22

mikey_dragon wrote:I'm just wondering were they U18 or U20 at the time, playing at a tournament in SA? Playing for Argentina? I think I read that they were departing SA at the time of the tweets. You never know, they may have had an unpleasant experience or run-in with somebody, that's not to say it makes racist views and comments acceptable. Some will choose to hate and abuse them forever over this incident, I don't think that's quite right. From what I've seen of Matera he is a great guy, and seems very remorseful.

I was explained by an Argentinian rugby supporter that it actually wasn’t about leaving SA, but leaving Argentina, apparently the context is that the social classes are divided where Rugby is seen as being played by the wealthy and soccer is the poor man’s game, the reference to blacks are not black people as in Africans, but a social description of those less fortunate.

How to understand the culture of Argentina will probably go some ways to understand it.

The guy also suggested the Argentian masses got upset about their “poor” manner of honoring Diego Marradona, and this tweeting business was in retaliation of that

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Post by GeordieFalcon Thu 3 Dec - 12:51

Ive tried to stay away from this one...as in my experience (having grown up in Liberia, West Africa to White British parents) , Racism is a hugely controversial, contradicting, hypocritical and confusing area.

Its an absolute minefield, that everyone will have their own opinions on and also every culture has their ways.

I'm betting he regrets putting those comments out there...as im sure Lawrence Dallaglio regretted dealing drugs, as Nelson Mandela regretted some things he did (for the cause at the time).

i have always been skeptical that ALL people can change...however i DO believe (and have seen with my own eyes) that some people can change. Things we've done in our early years can be so far away from our opinions and thoughts when we reach more mature ages.

Is it fair to destroy someone now for something that happened years ago? Yes and No

It all depends on the person themsevles....their track record since then. How they have behaved since then, what they have taught and instilled in others etc.

Its not so clear cut.

In this case i dont know alot about the individuals involved so its difficult to make any judgement.


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Post by Gooseberry Thu 3 Dec - 12:52

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think the majority of society certainly in the uk are more than happy to move and say its not an issue.

Which kind of sums up the problem for those affected by it

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Post by Collapse2005 Sat 5 Dec - 9:08

No 7&1/2 wrote:They are great men, fine examples and have kids now. Let's just forget all this.

Slightly depressing how racism has reared its head much more publically recently.

In part possibly because whats considered racist seems to broaden all the time?


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Post by Collapse2005 Sat 5 Dec - 9:09

Argentina are being completely reffed out of this game, penalty after penalty. Very one sided from Gardner so far.

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