Gallagher Premiership 2020/21

First topic message reminder :

The new season starts next weekend. What are people's hopes and expectations?

10-27 Falcons...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Barbeary has made some big Carrie's...hes impressive...playing no8 today

The scoreline doednt reflect how many times wasps have dropped the ball in critical moments

Part of being good is being clinical.

Tigers have mullered a one on one that should have been an easy try. You want to win games you can't do that.

True Sam.

I'll hold my hands up aswell...I really moaned about Burrell signing.

Hes been a rock. Not flashy..but does exactly what it says on the tin. Critical to our start...

Good start geordie. How did radwan play? And barbeary at 8?

Radwan scored and Barbeary has been hugely impressive

Does anybody want an Argentinian flyhalf? I will drive him from Leicester to whichever destination.

Is the wasps Odogwu the lad who was at Tigers?

Hes a good player!!

Joel Hodgson has been outstanding at full back . Only missed one high ball.
Started attacks.
Have we finally found his spot.

Wasps get a final try..

17-27 full time

Your Christmas seems to be coming early GF

Yeah lets see how long it lasts.

Next up Cardiff in the Euros...Dean has said he'll put the kids out. Some of them are frighteningly good...im really excited to see how they go.

I know im displaying positivity...which is very rare. But its just nice to see is playing with aggresison and pace.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josh_Basham

Outside of his rugby commitments, Basham has an avid passion for fridges. He even started his own transformation into a fridge with multiple surgeries and has won the most prestigious 'Fridge look-alike' award in the UK.

I wonder which of the Falcons squad are having fun with Basham's Wikipedia page on the way back from Coventry...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah lets see how long it lasts.

Next up Cardiff in the Euros...Dean has said he'll put the kids out. Some of them are frighteningly good...im really excited to see how they go.

That's a good choice though. Keep the first team fresh and hope the young guys provide a selection headache. Haven't you got a few senior players coming back from injury as well? Good chance for game time.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I know im displaying positivity...which is very rare. But its just nice to see is playing with aggresison and pace.

We really seem to have found a system that works for us, quite similar to how England are playing actually. We were calling for a freshen up in the coaching staff and it looks like Easter (so far) is that man. To beat 3 of the top 5 from last season in our first 3 games back is some going. I never seen this coming if I'm totally honest and it's crucial that we take as many points as possible during the Int break.

Sgt,
Its literally what we have said for years...play with more aggression and pace! Its not some magic recipe...rugby can be quite an easy game to play.

lets see how long it lasts...

The European games now. The guys can have a rest and some of the fringe / academy / injury returnees can have a run out.

Steve Diamond has left Sale with immediate effect.

Yeah just seen that...how odd..

Edit: Personal Reasons.

Massive blow for Sale.

Any South African coaches looking for work?

Dimes isn't everyone's cup of tea but hopefully he and his family are OK. He has been a part of the Sale set-up to the same extent that Cockers formerly was at Tigers, it's shame he's had to leave unexpectedly due to personal reasons.

Deacon has been with Sale 5 years so should have a good rapport with the players. 

2017 - Faf and Ross join
2018 - Rohan Janse van Rensburg and du Preez brothers x 3 join at various stages
2019 - Akker van der Merwe, Oosthuizen and Lood de Jager
2020 - Wiese and JP du Preez

Those quality South African players joining and staying have been integral to Sale's improvement. Whilst Diamond rubs some people up the wrong way players who like playing under his management seem to really like playing for him. It will be vital for Sale that Deacon can maintain those good relationships with a small, tight knit squad.

Diamond did a great job at Sale. You could maybe argue he might not have been the man to take them to the next level but for years he built a team on little budget an developed goo players that were pinched by other teams.

I hope he and his family are all ok. If he wants to come back into rugby later I think he'll have some offers. Despite his spikey exterior the players seemed to love him.

Sale team developed under Diamond;

Harrison, Taylor, Thomas
Beaumont, Gaskell
Curry, Curry, Nield
Mitchell, Redpath
Jennings, James
Addison, James, Haley

Struggled for an 8 and a little at 10.

I'm just glad Saints won't lose a Premiership match this weekend.

Apparently a dispute over the "direction of the club", whether thats signing too many or not enough du preez's not clear.

Must be a difficult time for the club losing Tuillagi but being lumbered with his monster contract, although they surely new he'd miss a lot of rugby for England and the Lions if he'd stayed fit. Always struck as a daft bit of business really, and although he's sorely missed Tigers did the right thing by eventually letting him go. At a guess the issues likely centre around whether or not they were going to sign someone with the injury dispensation to cover him for the season and early discussions about budgets for next year (cuts to development squad?) which are likely to be very squeezed across the board.

Sure more will come out about this. Certainly wont help Sale in the short term.


Really looks like Exeter are going to walk the league this season doesnt it. With their England lads back what a force.

king_carlos wrote:Dimes isn't everyone's cup of tea but hopefully he and his family are OK. He has been a part of the Sale set-up to the same extent that Cockers formerly was at Tigers, it's shame he's had to leave unexpectedly due to personal reasons.

Deacon has been with Sale 5 years so should have a good rapport with the players. 

2017 - Faf and Ross join
2018 - Rohan Janse van Rensburg and du Preez brothers x 3 join at various stages
2019 - Akker van der Merwe, Oosthuizen and Lood de Jager
2020 - Wiese and JP du Preez

Those quality South African players joining and staying have been integral to Sale's improvement. Whilst Diamond rubs some people up the wrong way players who like playing under his management seem to really like playing for him. It will be vital for Sale that Deacon can maintain those good relationships with a small, tight knit squad.

Saffers do tend to like a "straight talker" and whatever else he is, Diamond certainly is one of those.

Gooseberry wrote:Must be a difficult time for the club losing Tuillagi but being lumbered with his monster contract, although they surely new he'd miss a lot of rugby for England and the Lions if he'd stayed fit. Always struck as a daft bit of business really, and although he's sorely missed Tigers did the right thing by eventually letting him go.

Sale signed Manu for a fraction of what Tigers paid him, hence the rumoured legal case between Tigers and the players who left.

It seemed Manu wanted to stay in the England picture until the Lions then assess his options. I'd guess he'll be playing in France next year.

Yes, it's early, but Saints match at the Gardens against Worcester is a very big game for the home team. Saints need a solid game played well and with a bonus point just to get the season on track. Otherwise this could be a long cold winter (and next season in the Championship as well).

Happy Saints got their first win in a long time. But not sure it was terribly encouraging. Some great performances, but the team also made a lot of turnovers (mostly unforced errors) when deep in Worcester territory. A better team would have put the game in the bag by halftime. And Saints defense out wide is still terrible.

I was convinced Chris Boyd was, or should have been, coaching for his job today. But the Saints organisation is a patient organisation. And a win is a win.

Worcester were woeful. Couldn't apply any consistent pressure and when they forced Saints into conceding a yellow card they squandered the 10 minutes.

There's still a good side in Northampton somewhere. Confidence looks to be an issue. Having Biggar available helps them but his yellow card can only be generously described as moronic. With their international players back they should keep improving but if they can stay dire for a couple more weeks that would be nice.

Simmonds is on an incredible try scoring spree so far. 8 to date this season. Nobody else has more than three.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Worcester were woeful. Couldn't apply any consistent pressure and when they forced Saints into conceding a yellow card they squandered the 10 minutes.

There's still a good side in Northampton somewhere. Confidence looks to be an issue. Having Biggar available helps them but his yellow card can only be generously described as moronic. With their international players back they should keep improving but if they can stay dire for a couple more weeks that would be nice.

Saints clearly have the ability to play at whatever level is needed to make our opponents feel good about themselves. They tried against Worcester, but they even managed to mess that up and win.

I would like to see the team play to what we believe is their ability. But in actuality it is not a well constructed roster any more. Saints-Tigers games were good fun when both clubs were going well.

Just watched the Saints Warriors game & pleased for Saints they finally got the win.
They looked a lot brighter but personally I think the front row is a weakness. Worst scrum stats in the league & it sets the tone for a game.
Some good plays but look vulnerable at times though  same can be said for Worcester.
Olly Lawrence looked class every time he gets the ball.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Just watched the Saints Warriors game & pleased for Saints they finally got the win.
They looked a lot brighter but personally I think the front row is a weakness. Worst scrum stats in the league & it sets the tone for a game.
Some good plays but look vulnerable at times though  same can be said for Worcester.
Olly Lawrence looked class every time he gets the ball.

Very happy Saints got a win, with the 4 try bonus point too.   Lots of positives across the squad.  In particular, Ribbans, Biggar, and Furbank were immense.  But the problem areas remain:  The front row, as you mention, has become a weakness.  The midfield is hit or miss.  And the defense outside is still very poor.  

One thing which some people mentioned was our lineout.  It has been not very good for quite some time, yet Worcester rarely challenged our lineout throws which made things easier.  That was a nice holiday gift and a really strange coaching decision.      

And, I agree, Ollie Lawrence really has the look of someone who could be a special player.

WillGriff John looks the same weight is before, but less fat and more muscle. Beast. I see he got injured again though, has that been a common theme for him the last few weeks? I haven’t seen his name on the team sheet often.

What has happened to Manny Iyogun, he came in as the only fit LH Saints had to finish the season off. Everyone was expecting the youngster to get beaten up badly and he more than held his own, even getting penalties out of Dan Cole. This season, he is nowhere to be seen.

Saints front row has been dodgy since Hartley retired or even since his injury that forced the retirement, Waller is not the prop he was, Franks is past it (I know about being Past It) and Painter has not come on like we all thought he would. I thought he would have been pushing for inclusion in the England squad this year, but hardly seems to play.

I am not sure what is happening with the backs, we have riches there but they change every week. Our best centre is playing on the wing (Proctor) and the 12/13 axis changes every week along with the 9 and 10 (internationals did not help). Prince Harry comes back, starts to look goodish and then disappears off the radar again, not even on the bench.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:What has happened to Manny Iyogun, he came in as the only fit LH Saints had to finish the season off. Everyone was expecting the youngster to get beaten up badly and he more than held his own, even getting penalties out of Dan Cole. This season, he is nowhere to be seen.

That's not how I remember it. The kid did well but Cole gave him a bit of a lesson which he seemed to learn from to be fair and he did seem to be developing well. Not sure what's going wrong for you up front but I'd be happy to see it continue for a couple more weeks.

The backline seems to be chopped and changed every week. Hard to build a structure from that. Naiyaravoro seemed to be key to you previously as well offering some direction to an otherwise skillful rather than direct set of backs. Him being injured hasn't helped. Neither Tuala nor Mallinder have been able to take that role on and add some balance to your backs attack.

All I can guess about Manny Iyogun is that he is only 19 or 20 years old and there are older, more experienced props ahead of him. I am not saying this is a good reason at all, especially since the front row is underperforming anyway. His game against Exeter back in September was indeed quite good.

One of this things I don't like about the current coaching setup is the constant mixing and matching players. I know it is difficult to manage a squad this season which will be the most attritional since professionalism. But to allow players to get a little experience with the same combinations will pay off.

What are the thoughts on the league points given for the postponed games.

Both games are recorded as 0-0
Newcastle and Bath both deemed winners and pick up 4pts.  Irish and Tigers get 2pts.

Have to feel that Irish will see the 2pts as probably more than expected if the game went ahead while bath would see it as 1 pt lost.

Was this all decieded at the start of the season or is it likely to change as the season goes on.  Can we see teams using such as playing Exeter where club may deciede there were alot of close contacts so can't fulfil the fixture.

It seems a mess but not sure if it or the Euro model is better.

Brendan wrote:What are the thoughts on the league points given for the postponed games.

Both games are recorded as 0-0
Newcastle and Bath both deemed winners and pick up 4pts.  Irish and Tigers get 2pts.

Have to feel that Irish will see the 2pts as probably more than expected if the game went ahead while bath would see it as 1 pt lost.

Was this all decieded at the start of the season or is it likely to change as the season goes on.  Can we see teams using such as playing Exeter where club may deciede there were alot of close contacts so can't fulfil the fixture.

It seems a mess but not sure if it or the Euro model is better.

Its been decided in advance, cant imagine any changes will be put in place now. The other alternatives have their own issues. This is does slightly penalise teams who get a lot of games cancelled as it takes bonus points out of the equation but its only really going to have a big impact on the lower half of the table. To drop out of the top 4 altogether and miss the playoffs as a result of the variations caused by called off games isnt very likely for a team that had a realistic shot of winning (ie are Exeter). It has some more potential to affect relegation where a few 2 pointers could make a big difference, but chances are they will have hashed out an expanded format for 2021/22 by then anyway and there will be no relegation. So overall the biggest effect cold end p being on who gets to finish bottom of their euro champions cup pool vs being a favourite in the losers cup next season.

Its not ideal but theres an element of arbitrariness in the points system anyway. If so many matches are being called off that it becomes the dominant factor in league positions then its an indication we have far bigger problems than rugby.

Brendan wrote:What are the thoughts on the league points given for the postponed games.

Both games are recorded as 0-0
Newcastle and Bath both deemed winners and pick up 4pts.  Irish and Tigers get 2pts.

Have to feel that Irish will see the 2pts as probably more than expected if the game went ahead while bath would see it as 1 pt lost.

Was this all decieded at the start of the season or is it likely to change as the season goes on.  Can we see teams using such as playing Exeter where club may deciede there were alot of close contacts so can't fulfil the fixture.

It seems a mess but not sure if it or the Euro model is better.

I dunno I'm not sure it would have been as cut and dried as that. Bath have injuries noticeably at loosehead and flyhalf. LI have an experienced front row (200 caps between them) and a very talented albeit disgrace at 10. Plenty of pace in the LI backs to go toe to toe with the more experienced Bath options. Shame it was called off could have been a good watch.

Two more matches cancelled for this upcoming weekend: Worcester-Harlequins and London Irish-Saints.
I guess we all knew this season was going to be impacted by Covid but now it is here.

Someone mentioned the fairness of relegation in a season like this, and I have to agree. I can't see Saracens liking this idea. What do you gents think?

doctor_grey wrote:Two more matches cancelled for this upcoming weekend:  Worcester-Harlequins and London Irish-Saints.
I guess we all knew this season was going to be impacted by Covid but now it is here.  

Someone mentioned the fairness of relegation in a season like this, and I have to agree.  I can't see Saracens liking this idea.  What do you gents think?

Murmurings are that there will be ring fencing of some sort coming soon. The 13 shareholder clubs would definitely be involved and there are suggestions that Ealing are considered 'financially viable'. The Rugby Paper have said that an announcement about intentions with ring fencing is due in 2021.

I don't particularly like ring fencing and never have as I think it will lead to a large number of meaningless games with teams frequently sending heavily rotated sides to away games and playing strong teams at home, leading to mismatches especially in the weeks preceding European games. We saw a taste of that last season with Sarries guaranteed (albeit deserved) relegation.

When ring fencing was first discussed I thought it could work well if done for a limited period (say 3-5 years) whilst the RFU continued investment in the Championship to strengthen there. Funding cuts to the Championship and now covid decimating already financially fragile clubs has made ring fencing feel rather inevitable though.

They might have to ring fence in the short term. I think Worcester and Saints are both likely to get given the win from those games which is a boost to their relegation fight. If you're LI then you're gutted as a home game against a massively out of form Saints side had a win a likely outcome.

If it's a close relegation battle you can see lawsuits being filed by whomever goes down. Be better to run a 14 team league next season and then the season after that there's two teams getting relegated but only one coming up.

So;
2020/21 - no relegation
2021/22 - expanded league no relegation
2022/23 - 14 team league with two relegated and one promoted at end of season
2023/24 - 13 team league with two relegated and one promoted at end of the season
2024/25 - back to normal

doctor_grey wrote:Two more matches cancelled for this upcoming weekend: Worcester-Harlequins and London Irish-Saints.
I guess we all knew this season was going to be impacted by Covid but now it is here.

Someone mentioned the fairness of relegation in a season like this, and I have to agree. I can't see Saracens liking this idea. What do you gents think?

If they can complete the season they should and the results should stand. It looks as if professional sport will continue no matter what unlike the first proper (ish) lockdown in March. Its going to go on for longer than April so matches will continue to be affected. I agree with the thoughts it pushes us further to a ring fenced prem. I'm more worried about the NHS staff in hospitals and community trusts than bad feeling for whichever team find themselves down a league though.

Pretty much garauntee the solution will be a 13 team premiership for next season. Its by far the most sensible solution and certainly the one PRL would collectively take. It would be in noones interest to see Saracens down in the chump league again and inevitably lead to legal action.

As it is having some abandoned games is arguably good in the medium term for the welfare of players in what will be a very long season

Falcons team V Bristol for tomorrow

15 Tom Arscott
14 Adam Radwan
13 George Wacokecoke
12 Matias Orlando
11 Ben Stevenson
10 Toby Flood
9 Sam Stuart

1 Trevor Davison
2 Jamie Blamire
3 Logovi'i Mulipola
4 Greg Peterson
5 Marco Fuser
6 Sean Robinson
7 Mark Wilson (captain)
8 Philip van der Walt

Replacements
16 Charlie Maddison
17 Kyle Cooper
18 Mark Tampin
19 Connor Collett
20 Josh Basham
21 Louis Schreuder
22 Brett Connon
23 Gareth Owen

Bristol v Falcons

15. Charles Piutau;
14. Siva Naulago,
13. Semi Radradra,
12. Piers O’Conor,
11. Ioan Lloyd;
10. Callum Sheedy,
9. Andy Uren;

1. Peter McCabe,
2. George Kloska,
3. Jake Armstrong,
4. Dave Attwood,
5. Joe Joyce,
6. Steven Luatua (c),
7. Jake Heenan,
8. Nathan Hughes.

Replacements:
16. Aaron Thompson,
17. Andrew Turner,
18. Kyle Sinckler,
19. John Hawkins,
20. Fitz Harding,
21. Harry Randall,
22. Alapati Leiua,
23. Luke Morahan.

Hey Geordie, It's interesting to see Toby Flood starting at 10. How is he doing? I saw a match (can't remember which) where he was at 12 and seemed to play OK. It looked to me like he was talking a lot and giving direction. But that was just how it appeared on tv. Good to see a (relatively) old guy out there still playing.

Hes played 12 for the last few Season's now. Mentoring the 10s we have. But the two centres are quality so i guess Dean wants to see how this midfield goes.

I think Flood is a little slow for the 10 spot these days..but he has played behind a weak pack for us since he rejoined. We'll get to see him behind a much stronger pack tomorrow though so will be interesting to watch.