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"Game of the Year" - England vs Ireland - ANC round 2

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Post by Pot Hale on Sun 15 Nov 2020, 11:35 pm

Eddie Jones thought he'd ramp up the pressure on his own team in advance of England playing Ireland next weekend in the ANC by declaring it the game of the year.  Nobody took him too seriously but he does like to give the media a soundbite or two to keep them happy.  No doubt, he'll be saying the same thing when his team travel across the country to play Wales.   And, in playing the winners of Pool B in the final game of this Autumn Nations Cup.

The latest rugby broadcaster, Amazon Prime, has already scheduled the England playoff final match on its own at Sunday lunchtime on 6 Dec in Twickenham.  They know which side their financial bread is buttered, even if they don't know where Northern Ireland is.

Before then, however, England have a little job to do.  They played against and with Georgia at the weekend, with the Georgians supposed ace in the scrum turning out to be less than anticipated.    Job done and 5 points in the bank.  

Andy Farrell is the one with more work to do with his team being royally spanked in the last few tests against England.   the English have the pack-power to put paid to Ireland before a pass even reaches their backline.   So can Farrell change that with selection policy or different game plan.  

Against Wales, Ireland were missing normal first-teamers Furlong, Henderson, Leavy, Stander, Aki, Ringrose, Stockdale and Larmour.   They weren't missed.   Ireland  can expect to have Stander and Aki available for Twickenham and assuming the medical illnesses that prevented Stockdale and Henderson from playing against Wales will have abated in time to allow them join the squad.

Whilst it might seem obvious that Henderson would start if available, Quinn Roux, probably for the first time since he arrived on a trial year at Leinster in 2012, managed to demonstrate to a lot of Irish fans that he might actually be useful and worth selecting.  Originally picked by Schmidt specifically as a tighthead lock on their SA tour in 2016, Roux had only gained a dozen caps before starting against Wales.   He provided the needed ballast for Porter at scrum time, and made himself a nuisance in the loose and useful in carrying including getting the first try.    Does he get to start again and displace the incumbent?

Conor Murray might be another to look to his laurels when he saw the pace that Jamison Gibson Park instilled into proceedings right from kick-off to the final whilst.   Andy Farrell might see him as a useful 9/10 to bring off the bench.

Elsewhere, Stockdale will likely be brought back in, although Farrell might prefer him on the wing with Keenan seeming more assured at full-back.

And in midfield, is Aki an automatic pick at 12 with either Henshaw (27) or Chris Farrell (27) as his partner?   Aki will be nearing 31 at end of next Six Nations - is he likely to be first pick when he's 33.5 years of age by the time of RWC 2023?  Or does Farrell need to make more room/time for others including Ringrose, McCloskey, and possibly 1 or 2 others?

Caelan Doris is making the No 8 position his own with each passing game, but it may be too early to omit Stander from the backrow equation.   Does POM get dropped to the bench again to make way?

Eddie Jones will already be plotting another Ireland downfall.   Will he go for pack power again combined with the accurate England kicking game, or does he have another few tricks up his sleeve?

Plenty to chat about, particularly once the team announcements come in.

Ireland Match Day 23
H Keenan; K Earls, C Farrell, B Aki, J Lowe; R Byrne, J Gibson-Park; C Healy, R Kelleher, A Porter; Q Roux, J Ryan (capt); CJ Stander, P O'Mahony, C Doris.
Reps: R Herring, E Byrne, F Bealham, I Henderson, W Connors, C Murray, B Burns, J Stockdale

England Squad
Elliot Daly Owen Farrell George Ford Jonathan Joseph Ollie Lawrence Max Malins Jonny MayDan Robson Henry Slade Ollie Thorley Ben Youngs
Tom Curry Tom Dunn Ben Earl Ellis Genge Jamie George Jonny Hill Maro Itoje Joe Launchbury Lewis Ludlam Kyle Sinckler Will Stuart Sam Underhill Billy Vunipola Mako Vunipola


Last edited by Pot Hale on Thu 19 Nov 2020, 12:51 am; edited 2 times in total
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Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Mon 16 Nov 2020, 7:15 am

‘ Will he go for pack power again combined with the accurate England kicking game’

Absolutely no doubt about this. It would just be nice to see some coherent backs moves to go with it. Whether Farrell plays at 10 or not will dictate this.
Good news is the weather is set fair next weekend @ hq.


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 16 Nov 2020, 7:18 am

Cheers for the thread. From an england perspective I really have no idea whether Jones is going to go back to the 6 nations players (injuries permitted) or whether hes going to roll the dice on a few. I'd like to see the same front row willis and Lawrence remain personally. Think they all did enough to deserve seeing again.

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Post by king_carlos on Mon 16 Nov 2020, 9:11 am

Cheers for the thread Pot Hale. This should be a really good game I think.

Aki and Henshaw in particular will be an interesting challenge for England. Tuilagi has been integral to playing against bigger centre partnerships under Jones. I'll be very curious to see whether Lawrence starts again or if Slade and Joseph lineup opposite them.

It's a shame for both sides that Furlong will likely be absent. Loosehead is an interesting conundrum with 3 strong options offering different strengths. Furlong would be a great challenge regardless of who starts for England. As a Tigers fan I'm biased but I hope Genge gets another start. I think Stuart has earned another start as well but not sure Sinckler will be benched for a big game.

With Stockdale and Daly likely to play fullback for each side I expect that fans for whichever side loses will be left asking why they were playing there.

The Ireland squad contains 5 back rows I really rate highly. If Connors and Underhill start at openside for either side then which of them has a greater impact in defence will be a great battle. They are two absolute machines in the tackle.

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Post by MichaelT on Mon 16 Nov 2020, 10:55 am

Its hard to know where either team is I think. Ireland played well on Friday but will be without big names now, and have a history of not playing well in back-to-back games. That being said, they did look confident v Wales and Lowe with ball in-hand was having an impact. Also good use of his kicking game I felt.

England feel like the start of the world cup when everyone was saying they're not playing well and its only Italy/ Georgia or USA/ Tonga as it was then. You feel they can go another level but will they without Tuilagi? The've proved they can win games without the Vunipolas this year.


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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 16 Nov 2020, 11:41 am

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:‘ Will he go for pack power again combined with the accurate England kicking game’

Absolutely no doubt about this. It would just be nice to see some coherent backs moves to go with it. Whether Farrell plays at 10 or not will dictate this.
Good news is the weather is set fair next weekend @ hq.


Then drop Farrell and Slade...thats a good start for you.

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Post by BamBam on Mon 16 Nov 2020, 11:46 am

Sexton and Henshaw out of the game with injury

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/54959434

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Post by Pete330v2 on Mon 16 Nov 2020, 11:49 am

England haven't even touched second gear yet, I know Ireland haven't hit their straps yet but I reckon England at full tilt will be too much for my beloved Irish.

That being said , there were glimpses of Farrells Ireland, glimpses that were ultimately squandered a lot of the time. If the passes stick a bit more Ireland could very well be a threat, they looked impressive in those attacking phases. We do need an extra bit of oomph up front though, (what're the chances of parachuting in the monster from Munster Gavin Coombes, what a future prospect he is) something that's been a problem against England of late. It's just so hard to know where Ireland are at the moment, stuffing a Welsh side as dire as that is no measurement at all.

If Sexton is crocked who takes the starting 10 shirt?
Will Stockdale and Keenan swap recent roles or interchange during the game?
Will Aki return to the 12 shirt?

Too many questions on a squad selection that will never please everyone anyway but at least there are questions, not shoe-ins.

England by 12 for me but usually when I lose all hope Ireland surprise me.

Edit due to BamBam's post.

Right, no Sexton means Byrne and Burns, two very hot tens Wink
Serisouly though, Byrne has steered the ship before and Burns really can get the backs moving which was evident in his short cameo.

In the centre we'll need physicality so lets roll the dice, McCloskey and Farrell have been amazing for their respective provinces and sometimes risks pay off. It'll be Aki and Farrell I suspect, an older, more experienced head needed.


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 16 Nov 2020, 11:49 am

Sexton is a huge blow for them but Burns is an attacking player who could get the best out of that back 3.

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 16 Nov 2020, 11:54 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:‘ Will he go for pack power again combined with the accurate England kicking game’

Absolutely no doubt about this. It would just be nice to see some coherent backs moves to go with it. Whether Farrell plays at 10 or not will dictate this.
Good news is the weather is set fair next weekend @ hq.


Then drop Farrell and Slade...thats a good start for you.

Slade will be fine. And if not him - who? Although I can see us going back to Ford/ Farrell at 10 and 12 and looking better for it. 12 is a problem position for us outside of just providing somewhere to shoehorn Farrell in.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 16 Nov 2020, 11:54 am

i hope people arent writing Ollie Lawrence off in comparison to Manu Tuilagi so quick.

Hes played 2 games. Hes a powerful talented lad, and just needs to bed in to international rugby.

The service from Farrell and Slade v Georgia was poor in my opinion, which made the outside bocks look worse...especially poor Johnny May.


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Post by lostinwales on Mon 16 Nov 2020, 11:55 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:i hope people arent writing Ollie Lawrence off in comparison to Manu Tuilagi so quick.

Hes played 2 games. Hes a powerful talented lad, and just needs to bed in to international rugby.

The service from Farrell and Slade v Georgia was poor in my opinion, which made the outside books look worse...especially poor Johnny May.

Jury is still out on Lawrence. He hasn't looked out of place but he hasn't done anything special either.

Marchant looked very lively when he came on.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 16 Nov 2020, 12:00 pm

lostinwales wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:‘ Will he go for pack power again combined with the accurate England kicking game’

Absolutely no doubt about this. It would just be nice to see some coherent backs moves to go with it. Whether Farrell plays at 10 or not will dictate this.
Good news is the weather is set fair next weekend @ hq.


Then drop Farrell and Slade...thats a good start for you.

Slade will be fine. And if not him - who? Although I can see us going back to Ford/ Farrell at 10 and 12 and looking better for it. 12 is a problem position for us outside of just providing somewhere to shoehorn Farrell in.

Get Sam James in there...

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 16 Nov 2020, 12:00 pm

lostinwales wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:i hope people arent writing Ollie Lawrence off in comparison to Manu Tuilagi so quick.

Hes played 2 games. Hes a powerful talented lad, and just needs to bed in to international rugby.

The service from Farrell and Slade v Georgia was poor in my opinion, which made the outside books look worse...especially poor Johnny May.

Jury is still out on Lawrence. He hasn't looked out of place but he hasn't done anything special either.

Marchant looked very lively when he came on.

He's played two games...?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 16 Nov 2020, 12:02 pm

Lawrence is a guy that has shown hes ok at this level but not shown anything amazing yet. The pick up from that lousy slade pass in the first half convinced me hes got something about him as he didnt panic.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 16 Nov 2020, 12:31 pm

1 Genge
2 George
3 Stuart
4 Hill
5 Itoje
6 Curry
7 Underhill (Willis off the bench)
8 Billy V

9 Young
10 Ford
11 May
12 Farrell
13 Slade / Lawrence
14 Marchant
15 Daly

Or
13 Slade / Marchant
14 Daly
15 Furbank.

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Post by Brendan on Mon 16 Nov 2020, 12:57 pm

I can only see England winning.

Back in the day we would complain about Best and his 80% lineouts. Now it feels we lose 50%. Against Wales we would get penalties and lose the lineout. It was why Ireland were kicking goals even though well ahead.

Itoje will make our bad lineout look terrible which means we will have to run the ball to score so not holding much hope.

Both teams played weak teams so hard to tell how good either were.

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Post by Recwatcher16 on Mon 16 Nov 2020, 1:08 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:1 Genge
2 George
3 Stuart
4 Hill
5 Itoje
6 Curry
7 Underhill (Willis off the bench)
8 Billy V

9 Young
10 Ford
11 May
12 Farrell
13 Slade / Lawrence
14 Marchant
15 Daly

Or
13 Slade / Marchant
14 Daly
15 Furbank.

England seem to have multiple proven options in every position, bar 8, 9 & 12. Like many, this appears to be an opportunity missed for a number of club players in those three positions.

That front five will fancy going after the Irish set piece and the Irish back three might do ok but also look vulnerable. Ireland look unlucky with injuries, which is an unusual turnaround for England - with lack of club matches being a significant factor in a pretty much full turnout for England.
Ireland could well field at some point three kiwis, an Englishman and also a couple of Saffers in the pack - who would have thought ?! The spine of the Ireland team is in transition - Best and Toner have gone, Sexton is just about hanging on but pulling a hamstring from a place kick is not a good sign and Kearney has gone with no clear idea on his replacement and complicated by injuries.

The game I want to see is France England.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 16 Nov 2020, 1:09 pm

Whats happened to Jordan lamour?

i thought he was the Irish Fb elect?

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Post by Recwatcher16 on Mon 16 Nov 2020, 1:27 pm

Shoulder injury I think - a pacy player when fit, not sure if the answer at FB - would be my Dublin mates assessment.

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Post by asoreleftshoulder on Mon 16 Nov 2020, 1:27 pm

He dislocated his shoulder and needed an operation. Probably be February before we have any chance to see him again.

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 16 Nov 2020, 1:52 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:i hope people arent writing Ollie Lawrence off in comparison to Manu Tuilagi so quick.

Hes played 2 games. Hes a powerful talented lad, and just needs to bed in to international rugby.

The service from Farrell and Slade v Georgia was poor in my opinion, which made the outside books look worse...especially poor Johnny May.

Jury is still out on Lawrence. He hasn't looked out of place but he hasn't done anything special either.

Marchant looked very lively when he came on.

He's played two games...?

I know. Would it be better if I said he needed more time to show what he can do?

Willis fitted in straight away, Teimana Harrison looked gash from the start - so some players you only need a game of two to take a view. Lawrence has neither fecked up nor proved he's the best thing since Manu.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 16 Nov 2020, 1:58 pm

I agree...thats why he needs some more time before we judge.

I also agree that Marchant did look very lively when he came on

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Post by Pot Hale on Mon 16 Nov 2020, 2:25 pm

So the IRFU have announced that Sexton (hamstring) and Henshaw (adductor strain) are both ruled out of the England match.

Billy Burns who received an HIA assessment is following return to play protocols.

Stockdale is still nursing his calf injury and will hopefully return to training later this week.

Henderson returned to training today as did Shane Daly.

No additional players have been called up to the ANC squad.

Andy Farrell now has some thinking to do on selecting for the 9, 10 and 15 slots in particular.    If Burns is unable to play, then his remaining option in his current ANC squad is Ross Byrne.  (Jack Carty who was in 6N squad played for Connacht in their loss to Scarlets at the weekend.)   So Farrell may have to follow through on his assertion after the Wales match that Conor Murray is a genuine 10 option for him.  Gibson-Park has played most of his PRO14 games and some Champions Cup games with Ross Byrne outside him at Leinster so there's an established partnership there.

In midfield, the obvious selection is Aki and Farrell who have played together before or possibly Farrell selects Keith Earls at 13 where he has regularly filled in during midfield injury problems. Earls more likely gets the 23 shirt.

Back three could be as you were, if Stockdale remains unavailable with Keenan taking the 15 shirt again, as he does for Leinster.   Conway/Earls and Lowe on the wings.  

Up front, you'd expect to see the best available front row start - Healy, Kelleher and Porter.
Ryan and probably Henderson at lock, and maybe a backrow of Stander, Connors and the more athletic Doris at 8, with POM on the bench, with probably Roux beside him.  Heffernan, Bealham and maybe John Ryan as the back-up front row.

If Murray is the 9/10 cover, then Farrell could either add in an extra back or forward to the bench- perhaps Tadgh Beirne as 5/6 cover, or else McCloskey for midfield.

We should know on Wednesday assuming Farrell follows his early team naming routine.

My guess - assuming Stockdale remains out:
15-9
H Keenan, A Conway, C Farrell, B Aki, J Lowe, R Byrne, J Gibson-Park
8-1
Doris, Connors, Stander, Henderson, Ryan, Porter, Kelleher, Healy
Reps:
Heffernan, E Byrne, F Bealham/J Ryan, Roux, POM, Murray, Burns/McCloskey, Earls
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Post by king_carlos on Mon 16 Nov 2020, 2:37 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:I agree...thats why he needs some more time before we judge.

I also agree that Marchant did look very lively when he came on

I'd be surprised if Marchant isn't our first choice 13 in the next couple of years. Really good player with plenty of talent to improve.

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 16 Nov 2020, 2:44 pm

king_carlos wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:I agree...thats why he needs some more time before we judge.

I also agree that Marchant did look very lively when he came on

I'd be surprised if Marchant isn't our first choice 13 in the next couple of years. Really good player with plenty of talent to improve.

The only factor working against him is the perception that we need a power player in the centres.

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Post by Old Man on Mon 16 Nov 2020, 2:45 pm

Might be a good thing for Ireland to play a test without Sexton, was listening to some rugby podcast the other day and they had a few issues with Sexton being too hardheaded to listen to advice, only taking cognizance of his own decision and mindset.

Sounds like he is too powerful in the team.

I don’t know whether others agree though.

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Post by king_carlos on Mon 16 Nov 2020, 3:07 pm

lostinwales wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:I agree...thats why he needs some more time before we judge.

I also agree that Marchant did look very lively when he came on

I'd be surprised if Marchant isn't our first choice 13 in the next couple of years. Really good player with plenty of talent to improve.

The only factor working against him is the perception that we need a power player in the centres.
True. I'm hoping that his ability to play wing sees him get game time wider out from which he can put himself in the position to grab a chance in the midfield if/when injuries inevitably strike.

JJ showing better form again will make it more difficult for Marchant to break through but that competition is a positive in my opinion. I was always singing JJs praises before injury but after his long layoff hem looked to have lost a yard of pace and wasn't quite the same player. He's been really good since the restart though. Perhaps a player that has benefited from the enforced break due to covid.

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Post by Pot Hale on Mon 16 Nov 2020, 3:12 pm

Old Man wrote:Might be a good thing for Ireland to play a test without Sexton, was listening to some rugby podcast the other day and they had a few issues with Sexton being too hardheaded to listen to advice, only taking cognizance of his own decision and mindset.

Sounds like he is too powerful in the team.

I don’t know whether others agree though.

You might be right.

On the other hand, you might not be.

Dearth of competing leadership with him. Others need to stand up and be heard.
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Post by majesticimperialman on Mon 16 Nov 2020, 7:37 pm

I do think Sexton loss is a big blow for Ireland, Burns looked alright when he came on there was a more flowing game. playing like Ireland can play and not ne predictable as a last few years. I think it would be a shame if he does bot gate a second chance.

Regard England if Ford is fit like to see him at 10 Farrell at 12. England have a more open game. ronning game and not too much of a kicking for the sake of kicking game when he does not play.
Am hoping for an high scoring game with not too many penalties from either side.

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Post by Mr Bounce on Mon 16 Nov 2020, 8:35 pm

If he's fit, I for one would like to see Joe Cokanasiga start at 14. The last time England played Ireland at HQ outside of the 6 Nations it was a rout, and Big Joe scored twice. Whilst I m not saying that will happen, it's a nice thought to have. The team I would like to see is as follows:

1. Genge
2. George
3. Stuart
4. Itoje
5. Hill
6. Curry
7. Willis
8. Vunipola
9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. May
12. Farrell
13. Lawrence
14. Cokanasiga
15. Daly

16. Dunn
17. Vunipola
18. Sinckler
19. Ewels
20. Earl
21. Robson
22. Slade
23. Marchant

There's power and speed everywhere, and you can always put Malins or Joseph in place of Slade and Marchant. Marchant though has really impressed me. I would look to start him at 13 against Wales, with Ford at 10 again to keep the backs moving.

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 16 Nov 2020, 10:05 pm

Its bad enough that England picked 5 13's last time out but Farrell turning out at 13 for the opposition is just ridiculous.


By the sounds of things Joseph will be fit, and still seems safe to assume that Ford will be and will walk back into the 10 shirt. That leaves England with even more centres to try and squeeze in, but still a distinct lack of specialist wings fit

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 17 Nov 2020, 7:28 am

A lot of talk about Billy Burns in the press. Last weekend he became the 7th player to win a full cap from the 23 that won the 2014 JWC final. Only 3 have played for England though.

England: Aaron Morris (Bedford), Howard Packman (Northampton), Nick Tompkins (Saracens), Harry Sloan (Harlequins), Nathan Earle (Saracens), Billy Burns (Gloucester), Henry Taylor (Loughborough University); Danny Hobbs-Awoyemi (Northampton), Tom Woolstencroft (Bath), Paul Hill (Leeds), Maro Itoje (Saracens, captain), Charlie Ewels (Bath), Ross Moriarty (Gloucester), Gus Jones (Wasps), James Chisholm (Harlequins)

Replacements: Jack Walker (Leeds), Alex Lundberg (Wasps), Biyi Alo (Saracens), Hayden Thompson-Stringer (Saracens), Joel Conlon (Exeter), Callum Braley (Bristol), Sam Olver (Northampton), Henry Purdy (Leicester).

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 17 Nov 2020, 9:43 am

Gooseberry wrote:Its bad enough that England picked 5 13's last time out but Farrell turning out at 13 for the opposition is just ridiculous.


By the sounds of things Joseph will be fit, and still seems safe to assume that Ford will be and will walk back into the 10 shirt. That leaves England with even more centres to try and squeeze in, but still a distinct lack of specialist wings fit

Judging from what EJ was saying that doesnt matter...he wants ball players all over, hence Joseph on the wing. I dont think he cares if hes not a winger...just like Daly at FB. He wanted a playmaker and Daly had the skills he wanted there. Aussies have never really cared about the numbers on the back of their backs..

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 17 Nov 2020, 1:34 pm

From englands attack coach via the rfu. doesn't sound like ford is back yet.


He’s [George Ford] progressing nicely, we’re hoping he’ll be in contention for some part of this tournament – it’s an Achilles injury which can take some time. [Joe Marler] He’s another one in a similar place where he’s progressing nicely and moving in the right direction, they’re just niggly injuries that we’ve just got to get right.”

Amor on injuries

We left quite a few points on there [against Georgia]. We made some small progress and some steps in the right directions in difficult conditions, but that’s not making excuses. There were a few handling errors for us so definitely an area to improve upon.”

Amor on execution

We’re very clear about the framework in which Ireland are trying to play, they had some good success and will be hugely buoyed by the win against Wales when they put together some nice attacking play. It’s a good challenge for us.”


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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 17 Nov 2020, 1:56 pm

Oh well Farrell and Slade remain at 10 & 12

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Post by king_carlos on Tue 17 Nov 2020, 2:32 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:Its bad enough that England picked 5 13's last time out but Farrell turning out at 13 for the opposition is just ridiculous.


By the sounds of things Joseph will be fit, and still seems safe to assume that Ford will be and will walk back into the 10 shirt. That leaves England with even more centres to try and squeeze in, but still a distinct lack of specialist wings fit

Judging from what EJ was saying that doesnt matter...he wants ball players all over, hence Joseph on the wing. I dont think he cares if hes not a winger...just like Daly at FB. He wanted a playmaker and Daly had the skills he wanted there. Aussies have never really cared about the numbers on the back of their backs..
Reminds me a bit of the NZ back three from 2011 as well. Dagg, Jane and Kahui. Two fullback/wingers with strong all round games and a centre converted to wing. Worked pretty well for them to be fair.

9.Youngs, Heinz, (Spencer)
10.Farrell, Ford
11.May, Nowell, (Cokanasiga)
12.Tuilagi, (Francis)
13.Slade, Joseph
14.Watson, (McConnochie)
15.Daly

Those were the England backs at the RWC. No disrespect meant to those in brackets but just highlighting the players most integral.

The players there least likely to make the 2023 RWC due to injury or age would be:

Heinz - Obvious
May - He'll be 33 by the next RWC which is getting on for a winger that relies on pace
Tuilagi - A lot of injuries on the clock
Joseph - He will be 32 by the next RWC so not out the question by any means but he has had some long layoffs already

Then compare those players to the backs Jones seems to be looking at for the Nations Cup:

Robson - Scrum-half
Thorley - Winger with out and out pace
Lawrence - Powerful outside centre that could possibly perform Manu's role from 12
Marchant - Strong all round 13 who covers wing

Even things like Joseph and Marchant covering wing which would allow a RWC squad to carry fewer wingers and another specialist fullback. Hence Malins getting a chance?

It feels like Jones wants to keep as many of the mostly young squad from the last RWC together as possible with the guys tested mainly being those who's form has demanded it (Willis, Hill, Dunn) and players who offer direct replacements for incumbents that might need phasing out.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 17 Nov 2020, 3:13 pm

I wouldnt be surprised if Marchant is parachuted in. Looked very busy when he came on.

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Post by cb on Tue 17 Nov 2020, 4:37 pm

I felt rather sorry for Lawrence who I think could be a very good player.  One of the papers said he received 3 passes.  I remember the one he caught at ankle level, and one which was a forward pass which he chipped down the line which might have been interesting but was called back.  

So a bit unfair to judge.  More frustrated that Slade, Lawrence, Joseph (and Marchant), and Daly are all good players but nothing really happened

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Post by lostinwales on Tue 17 Nov 2020, 5:09 pm

cb wrote:I felt rather sorry for Lawrence who I think could be a very good player.  One of the papers said he received 3 passes.  I remember the one he caught at ankle level, and one which was a forward pass which he chipped down the line which might have been interesting but was called back.  

So a bit unfair to judge.  More frustrated that Slade, Lawrence, Joseph (and Marchant), and Daly are all good players but nothing really happened

Which all goes back to Farrell. The funny thing is at 12 he seems to be good at getting the rest of the backline moving. He's got a great pass after all. But at 10 there seems to be no real spark or imagination. Everything feels so predictable, and slow.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 17 Nov 2020, 5:55 pm

Well Willis has been dropped. This from the rfu.

England Senior Men

ENGLAND MEN SQUAD REVEALED TO FACE IRELAND

 Posted 52 Minutes Ago

England Men have retained a 25-player squad for this weekend’s Quilter International against Ireland.England Senior Men

Eddie Jones’ side will look to continue their winning start to the Autumn Nations Cup at Twickenham Stadium on Saturday (3pm KO), after beating Georgia 40-0 last weekend in their opening fixture.


Joe Marchant (rehabilitation) and Joe Marler (reconditioning) will stay with the squad at England’s training base, The Lensbury in Teddington. Mark Wilson has returned home to continue his rehabilitation.

England will then play their final group game in Llanelli, against hosts Wales, at Parc y Scarlets on Saturday 28 November (4pm KO).  Their final Quilter International, a tournament placing game, will be played at Twickenham on Sunday 6 December (2pm KO).

England v Ireland is live on Amazon Prime and Channel 4.

ENGLAND SQUADBACKS

Elliot Daly (Saracens, 44 caps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 85 caps)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 69 caps)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 52 caps)
Ollie Lawrence (Worcester Warriors, 2 caps)
Max Malins (Bristol Bears, 1 cap)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 58 caps)
Dan Robson (Wasps, 4 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 31 caps)
Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 101 caps)

FORWARDS 

Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 25 caps)
Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby, 2 caps)
Ben Earl (Bristol Bears, 5 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 20 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 51 caps)
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, 1 cap)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 40 caps)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 66 caps)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 8 caps)
Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 37 caps)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 5 caps)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 19 caps)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 53 caps)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 61 caps)


Bizarre from Jones frankly.


Last edited by No 7&1/2 on Tue 17 Nov 2020, 5:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by hugehandoff on Tue 17 Nov 2020, 5:56 pm

I have to admit to being quite depressed by England at the moment. Eddie has settled on such a boring kicking style of rugby that really makes so little use of the backs. Play for territory, defend like beasts and only attack when in the opposition half or on the odd turnover. I am not expecting Babas style risks, but I do think we can play in a more attractive and effective style. I have low hopes on the entertainment front this weekend.

In relation to selection I really hope Eddie uses this match as an opportunity to try out a couple of new players. Not too many, but as this is not the 6Ns he should try out a couple at least against top opposition. Will Stuart at tighthead and Willis are obvious ones for me. Such a shame Joe Simmonds has not featured in the squad as I am sure he would have done well alongside Farrell.

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Post by hugehandoff on Tue 17 Nov 2020, 5:58 pm

Forget Willis then Doh But I don't see the point in playing our usual backrow so hopefully Earl or Ludlam start, but I don't expect it.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue 17 Nov 2020, 6:05 pm

So much antipathy because Jones is selecting his preferred back row.

Ewels also dropped so expect to see Hill and Itoje start with Launchbury on the bench.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 17 Nov 2020, 6:09 pm

Well it's just strange. Best flanker on display last weekend doesnt get a chance to follow it up.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue 17 Nov 2020, 6:15 pm

Is that actually true? Itoje performed better for one

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 17 Nov 2020, 6:18 pm

Is it a definitive fact? No because its opinion.

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Post by lostinwales on Tue 17 Nov 2020, 6:23 pm

Willis subbed early so either injured, lacking fitness, or both. I suspect Eddie wanted to blood him and let him know the kind of standard needed the hard way. I would not be surprised if we don't see him again until the 6N. I would also not be surprised if he became a real fixture in the long run.

It was an impressive debut.

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Post by profitius on Tue 17 Nov 2020, 7:23 pm

It will be an interesting game from an Ireland point of view. Last few matches against England, their kicking game was too much for the Ireland defence to handle. France did the same a few weeks ago. Let's see if Farrell has learned any lessons.

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Post by rugby racing and beer on Tue 17 Nov 2020, 8:01 pm

Good post.

Makes for interesting reading from the Irish perspective.

Ireland looked switched on v an admittedly dire Welsh pack. They won't have such an easy ride v England.

It probably is the game of the year as things stand but I agree with whoever above said that France v England would be the 'big one'. Ireland played high tempo rugby v Wales so it'll be interesting if they try to do the same v England. The Irish lineout was pants and their scrum somewhat fortunate to be facing Rhys Carre. It's hard reading too much in to their dominance but when they perform well, they're a good pack. Big focus has to be on their back row to win them the match.

It's hard to say which way England will go. Peopl are complaining about their kicking but if/when it results in a try as it so often did pre-RWC, I wonder if they'll keep it up? Missing the point that tactics don't have to produce immediate results to be effective, they have to be part of a cohesive winning gameplan, and EJ has most certainly built that. Wishing/expecting England to 'add' some flair running rugby completely misses the point: what do you lose, instead of what do you add, by moving away from a winning gameplan? I can see England looking to attack Ireland on the counter and be ruthless towards them in the wide channels.

Comfortable England win by 15 points for me but if Ireland can shut them down and dictate enough of the game, it becomes a 50:50.

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