"Game of the Year" - England vs Ireland - ANC round 2

First topic message reminder :

Eddie Jones thought he'd ramp up the pressure on his own team in advance of England playing Ireland next weekend in the ANC by declaring it the game of the year.  Nobody took him too seriously but he does like to give the media a soundbite or two to keep them happy.  No doubt, he'll be saying the same thing when his team travel across the country to play Wales.   And, in playing the winners of Pool B in the final game of this Autumn Nations Cup.

The latest rugby broadcaster, Amazon Prime, has already scheduled the England playoff final match on its own at Sunday lunchtime on 6 Dec in Twickenham.  They know which side their financial bread is buttered, even if they don't know where Northern Ireland is.

Before then, however, England have a little job to do.  They played against and with Georgia at the weekend, with the Georgians supposed ace in the scrum turning out to be less than anticipated.    Job done and 5 points in the bank.  

Andy Farrell is the one with more work to do with his team being royally spanked in the last few tests against England.   the English have the pack-power to put paid to Ireland before a pass even reaches their backline.   So can Farrell change that with selection policy or different game plan.  

Against Wales, Ireland were missing normal first-teamers Furlong, Henderson, Leavy, Stander, Aki, Ringrose, Stockdale and Larmour.   They weren't missed.   Ireland  can expect to have Stander and Aki available for Twickenham and assuming the medical illnesses that prevented Stockdale and Henderson from playing against Wales will have abated in time to allow them join the squad.

Whilst it might seem obvious that Henderson would start if available, Quinn Roux, probably for the first time since he arrived on a trial year at Leinster in 2012, managed to demonstrate to a lot of Irish fans that he might actually be useful and worth selecting.  Originally picked by Schmidt specifically as a tighthead lock on their SA tour in 2016, Roux had only gained a dozen caps before starting against Wales.   He provided the needed ballast for Porter at scrum time, and made himself a nuisance in the loose and useful in carrying including getting the first try.    Does he get to start again and displace the incumbent?

Conor Murray might be another to look to his laurels when he saw the pace that Jamison Gibson Park instilled into proceedings right from kick-off to the final whilst.   Andy Farrell might see him as a useful 9/10 to bring off the bench.

Elsewhere, Stockdale will likely be brought back in, although Farrell might prefer him on the wing with Keenan seeming more assured at full-back.

And in midfield, is Aki an automatic pick at 12 with either Henshaw (27) or Chris Farrell (27) as his partner?   Aki will be nearing 31 at end of next Six Nations - is he likely to be first pick when he's 33.5 years of age by the time of RWC 2023?  Or does Farrell need to make more room/time for others including Ringrose, McCloskey, and possibly 1 or 2 others?

Caelan Doris is making the No 8 position his own with each passing game, but it may be too early to omit Stander from the backrow equation.   Does POM get dropped to the bench again to make way?

Eddie Jones will already be plotting another Ireland downfall.   Will he go for pack power again combined with the accurate England kicking game, or does he have another few tricks up his sleeve?

Plenty to chat about, particularly once the team announcements come in.

Ireland Match Day 23
H Keenan; K Earls, C Farrell, B Aki, J Lowe; R Byrne, J Gibson-Park; C Healy, R Kelleher, A Porter; Q Roux, J Ryan (capt); CJ Stander, P O'Mahony, C Doris.
Reps: R Herring, E Byrne, F Bealham, I Henderson, W Connors, C Murray, B Burns, J Stockdale

England Squad
Elliot Daly Owen Farrell George Ford Jonathan Joseph Ollie Lawrence Max Malins Jonny MayDan Robson Henry Slade Ollie Thorley Ben Youngs
Tom Curry Tom Dunn Ben Earl Ellis Genge Jamie George Jonny Hill Maro Itoje Joe Launchbury Lewis Ludlam Kyle Sinckler Will Stuart Sam Underhill Billy Vunipola Mako Vunipola

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:People get very critical of Eddie and his selections. In his 5 years in charge  (during which we have won a Grand Slam + two other 6Ns titles, reached a WC final, equalled the record for consecutive wins, wona series 3-0 in Australia, won a test in South Africa and beaten NZ at a World Cup) he has shown that in selection:

1) He is his own man. He is accused of ignoring players being put forward by the media almost to spite them. This is garbage, he just sees things the way he does and if that does not agree with others it is merely a viewpoint - and with his success with England he has earned a lot of leeway to make his choices.

2) He picks players he thinks are ready to play test match rugby.  In squads he looks at lots of players, and often throws curve balls, but when it comes to match day 23 he does not take many risks.

3) Age is irrelevant to him. If you are good enough you are both old enough and young enough. The England team in the WC final was, I believe, the youngest ever to play in a final.

4) He is both loyal and ruthless. If you are performing for him he will keep picking you despite what fans and media think (Dylan Hartley, Ben Youngs) but as soon as he thinks there are better guys he will switch and not look back (Hartley, Robshaw, Brown, Care).

Yeah but it's also a forum. It gets boring when we just nod along with eddie and not shout stop kicking the bloody ball when watching!

A natural side effect of having a decent conveyor belt of talent is that we all have our favourites, and it also gives us the opportunity to complain that our favourites were ignored when things go badly.

Anyway I want Sam Simmonds involved as according to his stats I am the same size as him...

Fair comment on the hyperbole, but Jones does wind me up as he is messing with players careers.  Also possibly agree on no 6 although Ross is our captain and plays virtually every minute he is fit.  I don't see Curry as an 8 though other than in an emergency.

Messing with players careers? If they don't like it they can simply walk away.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I can agree with alot (some hyperbole) of that but Tom.Curry walks into any side in the league. Whether he wears 6 or 7 on his back doesnt matter.

Not Exeter.

rugby racing and beer wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I can agree with alot (some hyperbole) of that but Tom.Curry walks into any side in the league. Whether he wears 6 or 7 on his back doesnt matter.

Not Exeter.

Why would he not make the Exeter team?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I can agree with alot (some hyperbole) of that but Tom.Curry walks into any side in the league. Whether he wears 6 or 7 on his back doesnt matter.

Not Exeter.

Why would he not make the Exeter team?

He would deliberately get left out to increase his chances of getting picked for England. We all know Eddie just bases his selections on what Baxter doesn't think.

Personally I think he'd make the side at 8.

[quote="asoreleftshoulder"][quote="rugby racing and beer"]

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:I also stand by my point that Tagdh Beirne should have stayed at the Scarlets and played for Wales on residency. He'd be happier and he'd have a better career.

He would have had to change his name so we could spell it, though.

Yeah I thought he should really have gone to Ulster,they need top quality forwards more and he would have been able to move around the pack like he did at Scarlets. He's an ideal sub ,brings game changing turnover and running ability plus the utility to cover several positions.
He still has a lot to offer Ireland but it looks like Farrell is really looking to have a lot of powerful athletes on the field.

I do think going to Munster was an odd decision. Of all the provinces it seems to be the worst fit. But, interested to see how the locks go tomorrow. Big pressure on Ryan - this is absolutely a potential Lions showdown, which not many people are talking about. I'm still not quite convinced by Ryan - I haven't see him play well when his pack isn't, so if England do get the edge tomorrow it's interesting to see how he goes. Roux is there to scrum hard and then be replaced by the excellent Henderson, again with Lions chances - Ireland know a faulty set piece destroys their chances, as do England after the SA last year.

Big game, this. I hope the standrad reflects it because we haven't really seen much in the way of good quality so far up in the NH. Hopefully with the rugby they have under their belts, that'll change tomorrow. Ireland must also fancy their chances in the lineout as well. I can see why Beirne isn't in the team but, still, it is a shame.

If you look at the record it looks good, but we threw away 2 grand slam opportunities with poor displays against Ireland in 2017 and France in 2020.  We lost the world cup in 2019 badly against an average South Africa team that lost in the group stage and struggled to get past Japan and Scotland.[/quote]



You're doing South Africa a massive disservice there. They would have beaten you, at Twickenham, with a struggling side at the end of their own long season had the ref not bottle Farrell's shoulder charge.

England are good but they were deservedly dismantled by SA. They're a more potent team in general, better footballers in the backs, but they still showed they have the best strong arm tactics in world rugby and can squeeze any team with set piece and physicality when they want to, just like England do to nearly everyone else. They outplayed NZ and the writing was on the wall in that group game - I fully believe they would have done the same to NZ as they did to England i.e. beat team well had the played in the final. They also didn't play Scotland.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I can agree with alot (some hyperbole) of that but Tom.Curry walks into any side in the league. Whether he wears 6 or 7 on his back doesnt matter.

Not Exeter.

Why would he not make the Exeter team?

They pick combos that suit their gameplan and Curry's style isn't Exeter's. He wouldn't walk in to their team. Not saying he couldn't learn to play the Exeter way eventually, but he wouldn't walk in to the team and be as good as what they currently have. Accuracy, ball carrying, discipline/lack of penalties etc.

Also intriguing on Lions watch for tomorrow: a Kiwi has basically come in and bumped Lions stalwart Murray out of the team.

He looked good v Wales, Gibson Park. But tomorrow is a much bigger test. Could we have a Kiwi Lions squad? Lowe, Gibson Park - both stand a great chance of touring. Add in a Saffa here or there...it's starting to ruin the purpose and the meaning of nationally representative rugby tbh, but from a purely rugby perspective, tomorrow is a good opportunity for Ireland to see where these boys are at test level.

Another ANC Match cancelled. Is it worth going on with if matches keep getting cancelled because of this virus? I know money is short right now, but why carry on if all the games cannot be played?

rugby racing and beer wrote:Also intriguing on Lions watch for tomorrow: a Kiwi has basically come in and bumped Lions stalwart Murray out of the team.

He looked good v Wales, Gibson Park. But tomorrow is a much bigger test. Could we have a Kiwi Lions squad? Lowe, Gibson Park - both stand a great chance of touring. Add in a Saffa here or there...it's starting to ruin the purpose and the meaning of nationally representative rugby tbh, but from a purely rugby perspective, tomorrow is a good opportunity for Ireland to see where these boys are at test level.

Gibson Park does the basics well and he is quicker than Murray. Depends what Gatland wants from his scrum half. Luke McGrath is ahead of Gibson Park for Leinster but his kicking and passing are not as good. Most people would rate Cooney the best in Ireland but he's not in the squad.

majesticimperialman wrote:Another ANC Match cancelled. Is it worth going on with if matches keep getting cancelled because of this virus? I know money is short right now, but why carry on if all the games cannot be played?

Lets do away with all the games that can happen because some can't, bizarre logic.

I would have last year - when I thought Cooney was in his early 20s (that's no haircut for a man in his 30s). But he's not even in the Ulster team.

The Lions is very much 'right place, right time'. You look back and can see that in every squad: "how did HE make it", that sort of thing. It could be right place, right time for Gibson-Park.

At this point, I think Webb and...yeah, Youngs...they're pencilled in. If Murray doesn't regain the shirt, he loses his place in the pecking order tbh. It could be Ali Price, it could be Gareth Davies, or it could be Cooney...but doesn't look like it. This could easily be the least 'homegrown' Lions tour so far.

majesticimperialman wrote:Another ANC Match cancelled. Is it worth going on with if matches keep getting cancelled because of this virus? I know money is short right now, but why carry on if all the games cannot be played?

I don't know about that but heads have to be rolling from an organisational point of view. They binned off South Africa for Fiji to avoid this happening. You can't just blame Fiji, some of the boys have literally had to travel through multiple airports to get to the other side of the world. That has to be factored in when deciding on this sort of thing.

Wait, it was Japan they binned off, wasn't it. Either way the point still stands.

Bit of a tasty finish by Sam Simmonds followed up by a great tackle putting quins from 5 m out to defending just outside their own 20. Wish we knew the feedback Jones gave the players. Youd imagine simmonds may only have grow about 4 inches and put on some weight.

Not a bad first match for Simmonds 3 tries probably a bit rusty ,still not good enough for England.

Only saw up until half time. Hes good enough but not who I'd have at 8.

majesticimperialman wrote:Another ANC Match cancelled. Is it worth going on with if matches keep getting cancelled because of this virus? I know money is short right now, but why carry on if all the games cannot be played?

If all the games can’t? You clearly don’t understand why one team’s games are being cancelled. You also clearly don’t understand the financial necessity of international games needing to be played. Even England who have been helped by a proper loan, unlike the one the WRU organised. Sometimes Madge, maybe do some research before posting. You could learn a lot off google or reading rugby news.

I hadn't noticed that Cowan-Dickie was back on the bench for Chiefs. Hopefully he can return for the Wales game and potentially get a start to see what he can do over the full 80.

RiscaGame wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Another ANC Match cancelled. Is it worth going on with if matches keep getting cancelled because of this virus? I know money is short right now, but why carry on if all the games cannot be played?

If all the games can’t? You clearly don’t understand why one team’s games are being cancelled. You also clearly don’t understand the financial necessity of international games needing to be played. Even England who have been helped by a proper loan, unlike the one the WRU organised. Sometimes Madge, maybe do some research before posting. You could learn a lot off google or reading rugby news.

Scotlands lawyers should be having a word with god mind. First the hurricane, now the plague...

king_carlos wrote:I hadn't noticed that Cowan-Dickie was back on the bench for Chiefs. Hopefully he can return for the Wales game and potentially get a start to see what he can do over the full 80.

Big Joe playing for Bath too.

Gooseberry wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Another ANC Match cancelled. Is it worth going on with if matches keep getting cancelled because of this virus? I know money is short right now, but why carry on if all the games cannot be played?

If all the games can’t? You clearly don’t understand why one team’s games are being cancelled. You also clearly don’t understand the financial necessity of international games needing to be played. Even England who have been helped by a proper loan, unlike the one the WRU organised. Sometimes Madge, maybe do some research before posting. You could learn a lot off google or reading rugby news.

Scotlands lawyers should be having a word with god mind. First the hurricane, now the plague...

They could take some advice from Billy Connelly, after all he did sue God and won.

England 36 - 21 Ireland

Nice finish, considering the pressure from Lowe as he was grounding.

Eek. Nice.

What a try. Pace.

Fine lines at the moment but England look just a little bit stronger all over

And May....

Wow.

Outstanding second try from May. After a couple of indifferent games he's just turned this half.

That's a bit special from Jonny May.

Magic from May. Utter magic.

That's the power of pace. Breezes past Farrell and then a hopeless kick, but still gets on the end of it. What a try.

The game really is missing fans. It's just not the same.

You just cannot argue with England's power and physicality. It's as good as a non contest when England are so much stronger than the opposition.

Surely that's a knock on by Itoje...

Irish lineout is really struggling.

Interesting stat on starting locks. Launchburybonly 4 behind Dooley to put him second on the list for england.

The combination of Underhill, Curry, Itoje and Launchbury put so much pressure on the breakdown.

I've been impressed with Ollie Lawrence so far. Getting involved much more.

Botched it. Good move by Ireland, Gatlandball at its best tbh, looks like Farrell has taken a lot from the Lions tours. But they had to score there.

Tom Curry being an absolute pain in the butt so far, being backed up by Itoje and Launchbury.

That's a horrible call to ping Gibson-Park there. If that's a tackle and not releasing/latching on before the man is floored, then Curry and Underhill won't win a single turnover for the rest of the game. Poor call, very harsh - well, not just harsh; wrong.

It drives me nuts when backs joining a maul block the ball off so it can't be transferred to the back. You can see Itoje and George trying to transfer the ball there but Lawrence and Faz are blocking it off. Frustrating.

rugby racing and beer wrote:That's a horrible call to ping Gibson-Park there. If that's a tackle and not releasing/latching on before the man is floored, then Curry and Underhill won't win a single turnover for the rest of the game. Poor call, very harsh - well, not just harsh; wrong.

BS

One guy tackles the next jackles. That works. Gibson park was trying to do both

Pascal Gauzere reminds me of Walter from the Beano comics. Such a pencil.

lostinwales wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:That's a horrible call to ping Gibson-Park there. If that's a tackle and not releasing/latching on before the man is floored, then Curry and Underhill won't win a single turnover for the rest of the game. Poor call, very harsh - well, not just harsh; wrong.

BS

One guy tackles the next jackles. That works. Gibson park was trying to do both

Wrong. Legs are on the floor, that's a tackle, you can play the ball. Keep your cow muck to yourself, buddy.

May scored two and saved one. Lawrence has been looking good. Lots more running from England and everything looks better

And there you go. Underhill done for the same as GP.

Perhaps an insight there in to why Joseph might not be a long term wing option. Shocker.

lostinwales wrote:May scored two and saved one. Lawrence has been looking good. Lots more running from England and everything looks better

And there you go. Underhill done for the same as GP.

It's not the same at all. Are you just lying for the sake of it...!?! Haha. Geez.

rugby racing and beer wrote:

lostinwales wrote:May scored two and saved one. Lawrence has been looking good. Lots more running from England and everything looks better

And there you go. Underhill done for the same as GP.

It's not the same at all. Are you just lying for the sake of it...!?! Haha. Geez.

Just do one, you boring sod.