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Le Winner Tales It All - England vs France

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 30 Nov 2020, 6:58 am

First topic message reminder :

The Guardian throws up some interesting points of discussion that have been touched upon already elsewhere. The positives first are that there will be 2000 fans in the stadium at the weekend:plenty of room to spread out but an important step back to normality. It also allows england the chance on some revenge for the 6 nations defeat and to lift some silverware. Despite overall feeling we've missed the chance to create depth in some key areas I think Jones has used these games pretty well. Genge has had some good performances, itoje and Launchbury have to me shown they can work effectively together, Willis and Earl have mins on the pitch, Lawrence looks set for a good career. Hell even if I dont think it's worked Joseph has proved he can cover wing (played there previously for england I know) though hopefully only for emergencies and we know conclusively Furbank isnt good enough.

That leads onto the negative. The balance between club and country has led France to agree to only play players 3 times over the course of these matches. It leave the final now a bit of an imbalance as France for some reason prioritised games over england meaning guys like Dupont and Vakatawa are unavailable. Perhaps they figured may as well let the media hype of 'France are back' reign on rather than risk a massacre at Twickenham. Its shame for the fans (and Amazon the poor multi billion company) but I'm looking forward to it anyway. There will still be fireworks from them I'm sure and in guys like Woki they certainly have quality. That guy could be box office, loads of potential with a slight question on his fitness to perform for 80 mins for me.

I suspect that Jones will go for a very strong team again but while his favourite phrase will be we've picked the strongest 23 it clearly leaves room for tinkering. I have a slight feeling that this may be the match he throws Malins a start.

Expecting a great game tbh. England have stuttered so far but easily been on top throughout their matches. Surely this is the game targeted from the off? Allez les rosbifs.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 06 Dec 2020, 4:23 pm

Duty281 wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Duty281 wrote:So England scrape a win thanks to some beneficial refereeing decisions. Against the French third team, at home, with a near-full strength line-up.

Play like that against the real France at the Six Nations and England will be demolished.

Jones needs to sort it out. Tactics that allow quality backs like May and Watson chances to influence the game.

Nope. France played with more freedom but did run out of energy. Very bright future. England attack still feels blunt but they are immensly strong everywhere else.

Had Farrell made his kicks this would not have been as close.

England's attack is blunt because they choose to kick the majority of the time. Retro rugby. They have some fantastic attacking talents in the backs, but would prefer to play a safety-first game, even at home against the French thirds.

If Farrell had made his kicks, England would have still only won by a few points. Point is, Farrell shouldn't have been attempting so many 3-pointers, as England should have been imposing themselves on the opposition, given the experience and quality gap, with a more attacking game and going for the corner.

So in your opinion sides can only justify winning bu how many backs moves? How many passes ticks the box? Etc

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 06 Dec 2020, 4:25 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Cyril wrote:Never in doubt! Woo-hoo!

I wouldnt celebrate a draw and a loss v France if I was you. They got the better of England in 2020.
England won the two tournaments they were both involved in. That’s what counts.

Could they have been any more boring though? They kicked the ball and fished for penalties and KOs all game long. Snore...

Lol. Ireland.

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Post by lostinwales Sun 06 Dec 2020, 4:26 pm

Duty281 wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Duty281 wrote:So England scrape a win thanks to some beneficial refereeing decisions. Against the French third team, at home, with a near-full strength line-up.

Play like that against the real France at the Six Nations and England will be demolished.

Jones needs to sort it out. Tactics that allow quality backs like May and Watson chances to influence the game.

Nope. France played with more freedom but did run out of energy. Very bright future. England attack still feels blunt but they are immensly strong everywhere else.

Had Farrell made his kicks this would not have been as close.

England's attack is blunt because they choose to kick the majority of the time. Retro rugby. They have some fantastic attacking talents in the backs, but would prefer to play a safety-first game, even at home against the French thirds.

If Farrell had made his kicks, England would have still only won by a few points. Point is, Farrell shouldn't have been attempting so many 3-pointers, as England should have been imposing themselves on the opposition, given the experience and quality gap, with a more attacking game and going for the corner.

The lack of tries can be frustrating but its not England giving away the kickable penalties against France.

England does need to really find another gear in attack.

Also worth pointing out that, although France's try was lovely and for all the excitement they generated, it was the only time they came close to scoring.

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Post by mikey_dragon Sun 06 Dec 2020, 4:28 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Cyril wrote:Never in doubt! Woo-hoo!

I wouldnt celebrate a draw and a loss v France if I was you. They got the better of England in 2020.

Never in doubt? England trailed for over three quarters of the match and it went to sudden death... Stupid thing to say.

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Post by Scottrf Sun 06 Dec 2020, 4:29 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Cyril wrote:Never in doubt! Woo-hoo!

I wouldnt celebrate a draw and a loss v France if I was you. They got the better of England in 2020.

Never in doubt? England trailed for over three quarters of the match and it went to sudden death... Stupid thing to say.

I think the stupid person is the one taking that comment fully seriously..

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Post by Duty281 Sun 06 Dec 2020, 4:31 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Duty281 wrote:So England scrape a win thanks to some beneficial refereeing decisions. Against the French third team, at home, with a near-full strength line-up.

Play like that against the real France at the Six Nations and England will be demolished.

Jones needs to sort it out. Tactics that allow quality backs like May and Watson chances to influence the game.

Nope. France played with more freedom but did run out of energy. Very bright future. England attack still feels blunt but they are immensly strong everywhere else.

Had Farrell made his kicks this would not have been as close.

England's attack is blunt because they choose to kick the majority of the time. Retro rugby. They have some fantastic attacking talents in the backs, but would prefer to play a safety-first game, even at home against the French thirds.

If Farrell had made his kicks, England would have still only won by a few points. Point is, Farrell shouldn't have been attempting so many 3-pointers, as England should have been imposing themselves on the opposition, given the experience and quality gap, with a more attacking game and going for the corner.

So in your opinion sides can only justify winning bu how many backs moves? How many passes ticks the box? Etc

Clearly not, as I didn't say that.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 06 Dec 2020, 4:35 pm

Duty281 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Duty281 wrote:So England scrape a win thanks to some beneficial refereeing decisions. Against the French third team, at home, with a near-full strength line-up.

Play like that against the real France at the Six Nations and England will be demolished.

Jones needs to sort it out. Tactics that allow quality backs like May and Watson chances to influence the game.

Nope. France played with more freedom but did run out of energy. Very bright future. England attack still feels blunt but they are immensly strong everywhere else.

Had Farrell made his kicks this would not have been as close.

England's attack is blunt because they choose to kick the majority of the time. Retro rugby. They have some fantastic attacking talents in the backs, but would prefer to play a safety-first game, even at home against the French thirds.

If Farrell had made his kicks, England would have still only won by a few points. Point is, Farrell shouldn't have been attempting so many 3-pointers, as England should have been imposing themselves on the opposition, given the experience and quality gap, with a more attacking game and going for the corner.

So in your opinion sides can only justify winning bu how many backs moves? How many passes ticks the box? Etc

Clearly not, as I didn't say that.

Ok. Just someone who sits and thinks avha ce for 5 is always better than a chance for 3. Fair enough.

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Post by mikey_dragon Sun 06 Dec 2020, 4:39 pm

Scottrf wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Cyril wrote:Never in doubt! Woo-hoo!

I wouldnt celebrate a draw and a loss v France if I was you. They got the better of England in 2020.

Never in doubt? England trailed for over three quarters of the match and it went to sudden death... Stupid thing to say.

I think the stupid person is the one taking that comment fully seriously..

How can you tell?

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Post by Duty281 Sun 06 Dec 2020, 4:39 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Duty281 wrote:So England scrape a win thanks to some beneficial refereeing decisions. Against the French third team, at home, with a near-full strength line-up.

Play like that against the real France at the Six Nations and England will be demolished.

Jones needs to sort it out. Tactics that allow quality backs like May and Watson chances to influence the game.

Nope. France played with more freedom but did run out of energy. Very bright future. England attack still feels blunt but they are immensly strong everywhere else.

Had Farrell made his kicks this would not have been as close.

England's attack is blunt because they choose to kick the majority of the time. Retro rugby. They have some fantastic attacking talents in the backs, but would prefer to play a safety-first game, even at home against the French thirds.

If Farrell had made his kicks, England would have still only won by a few points. Point is, Farrell shouldn't have been attempting so many 3-pointers, as England should have been imposing themselves on the opposition, given the experience and quality gap, with a more attacking game and going for the corner.

The lack of tries can be frustrating but its not England giving away the kickable penalties against France.

England does need to really find another gear in attack.

Also worth pointing out that, although France's try was lovely and for all the excitement they generated, it was the only time they came close to scoring.

I agree that England need to find another gear, or three, in attack, but it seems England have gone backwards since the last World Cup. I hope Jones abandons these tactics for the upcoming Six Nations, for entertainment's sake as well as England's.

I agree that France rarely looked like scoring, but that was expected given it was the French third team who've barely played together before. The worrying thing was how difficult England found it to break them down and get the win. The win should have been a formality and the margin a handsome one; instead England trailed at half-time and needed sudden-death to get over the line. It was a dismal performance lacking in any kind of ambition.

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Post by TJ Sun 06 Dec 2020, 4:40 pm

England really need to come up with a better gameplan if they want to be the best. Clearly they have the potential but they need to do more than try to bully teams up front and kick the ball away all the time

That game plan will not beat the best in the world regularly nor will it win you world cups. Lets put it this way - did yo usee anything today to scare the top teams?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 06 Dec 2020, 4:41 pm

TJ wrote:England really need to come up with a better gameplan if they want to be the best. Clearly they have the potential but they need to do more than try to bully teams up front and kick the ball away all the time

That game plan will not beat the best in the world regularly nor will it win you world cups. Lets put it this way - did yo usee anything today to scare the top teams?

We already are the best though tj

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Post by tigertattie Sun 06 Dec 2020, 4:43 pm

It wasn’t a polished England performance but they won what was In Essence a euro final in pressurised conditions. They’ll take learnings away from that.

And as the old saying goes, good teams find a way to win when playing Badly. Surely they’ll be in a better place should they find themselves in a similar situation in the near future?
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Post by Mr Bounce Sun 06 Dec 2020, 4:48 pm

Well we won it, but they made such hard work of it. France had nothing to lose and considering that so many top players were missing, they almost beat England. Well played France 3rd XV.

England were a bit slow to get started, and there's problems all over the park. Youngs was "meh", Farrell was dreadful off the tea and didn't offer much around the park. Held his nerve, eventually. I am not quite sure why Billy got MOTM though. Ford put in a couple of good kicks but for me was otherwise anonymous. Daly actually looked good, as did Malins, Earl and Curry. Underhill was a long way from his destructive best.

We have a lot to improve on, mainly that the kick chase game is a fool's game. When we ran at the opposition we looked good and gained ground. Infuriatingly we continued to just kick it back to them instead. Use the kick chase by all means but make it an occasional thing.

We need more exposure of players at 8, 9, 10 and 12.

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Post by TightHEAD Sun 06 Dec 2020, 4:51 pm

Easy win.
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Post by TightHEAD Sun 06 Dec 2020, 4:51 pm

How much better did we look when Young's came off.
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Post by lostinwales Sun 06 Dec 2020, 4:54 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:Well we won it, but they made such hard work of it. France had nothing to lose and considering that so many top players were missing, they almost beat England. Well played France 3rd XV.

England were a bit slow to get started, and there's problems all over the park. Youngs was "meh", Farrell was dreadful off the tea and didn't offer much around the park. Held his nerve, eventually. I am not quite sure why Billy got MOTM though. Ford put in a couple of good kicks but for me was otherwise anonymous. Daly actually looked good, as did Malins, Earl and Curry. Underhill was a long way from his destructive best.

We have a lot to improve on, mainly that the kick chase game is a fool's game. When we ran at the opposition we looked good and gained ground. Infuriatingly we continued to just kick it back to them instead. Use the kick chase by all means but make it an occasional thing.

We need more exposure of players at 8, 9, 10 and 12.

Billy got the MoM for his defensive work really - which was quite something. Raka and the French 13 both ended up in situations where they would have come off better running into a brick wall.

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Post by majesticimperialman Sun 06 Dec 2020, 4:54 pm

The way England was playing in the first half France was going to win the game.
Full credit though to France. i do truly believe if France could have had their first choice players on the field France would have won the game  comfortably.

What i could not understand is why they took to may kicks at goal, why did they not kick for the corner and trust in their line out.

Still a win is a win. it will be interesting to see what happen in the 6ns.;

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Post by TJ Sun 06 Dec 2020, 4:55 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
TJ wrote:England really need to come up with a better gameplan if they want to be the best.  Clearly they have the potential but they need to do more than try to bully teams up front and kick the ball away all the time

That game plan will not beat the best in the world regularly nor will it win you world cups.  Lets put it this way - did yo usee anything today to scare the top teams?

We already are the best though tj

Of course you are with your inability to make breaks with the back or forwards and your only way to score is play for penalties

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 06 Dec 2020, 4:59 pm

TJ wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
TJ wrote:England really need to come up with a better gameplan if they want to be the best.  Clearly they have the potential but they need to do more than try to bully teams up front and kick the ball away all the time

That game plan will not beat the best in the world regularly nor will it win you world cups.  Lets put it this way - did yo usee anything today to scare the top teams?

We already are the best though tj

Of course you are with your inability to make breaks with the back or forwards and your only way to score is play for penalties
.
Cool. Can you must state please what your own conditions are for the best I'm the world are please as currently England look to be beating the rest.

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Post by Collapse2005 Sun 06 Dec 2020, 5:11 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:The way England was playing in the first half France was going to win the game.
Full credit though to France. i do truly believe if France could have had their first choice players on the field France would have won the game  comfortably.

What i could not understand is why they took to may kicks at goal, why did they not kick for the corner and trust in their line out.

Still a win is a win. it will be interesting to see what happen in the 6ns.;

Me too, in 2020 France have looked like a team on the up, England still very strong but not progressing, possibly even going backwards. I reckon France are the better side right now and results certainly back that up.


Last edited by Collapse2005 on Sun 06 Dec 2020, 5:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by No9 Sun 06 Dec 2020, 5:24 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
TJ wrote:England really need to come up with a better gameplan if they want to be the best.  Clearly they have the potential but they need to do more than try to bully teams up front and kick the ball away all the time

That game plan will not beat the best in the world regularly nor will it win you world cups.  Lets put it this way - did yo usee anything today to scare the top teams?

We already are the best though tj

Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh ... thanks.. after the game yesterday, where Pivac managed to gloss over the cracks, I didnt think I'd ever laugh again.. but this has made me laugh so much I nearly pee'd myself...

England, the BEST team in the world, taught a lesson by France's schoolboys Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Saved only by a penalty in extra time Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo

No seriously, well done on the win.... clap ................ Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 06 Dec 2020, 5:38 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:The way England was playing in the first half France was going to win the game.
Full credit though to France. i do truly believe if France could have had their first choice players on the field France would have won the game  comfortably.

What i could not understand is why they took to may kicks at goal, why did they not kick for the corner and trust in their line out.

Still a win is a win. it will be interesting to see what happen in the 6ns.;

Me too, in 2020 France have looked like a team on the up, England still very strong but not progressing, possibly even going backwards. I reckon France are the better side right now and results certainly back that up.

Bar the results you're correct!

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 06 Dec 2020, 5:39 pm

No9 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
TJ wrote:England really need to come up with a better gameplan if they want to be the best.  Clearly they have the potential but they need to do more than try to bully teams up front and kick the ball away all the time

That game plan will not beat the best in the world regularly nor will it win you world cups.  Lets put it this way - did yo usee anything today to scare the top teams?

We already are the best though tj

Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh ... thanks.. after the game yesterday, where Pivac managed to gloss over the cracks, I didnt think I'd ever laugh again.. but this has made me laugh so much I nearly pee'd myself...

England, the BEST team in the world, taught a lesson by France's schoolboys Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Saved only by a penalty in extra time Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo

No seriously, well done on the win.... clap ................ Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh

Yeah again. Another win.

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Post by Cyril Sun 06 Dec 2020, 5:41 pm

England obviously doing ok based on the forum comments. A good barometer of success.

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Post by TightHEAD Sun 06 Dec 2020, 5:53 pm

All part of Eddie's masterplan. Why win easy when you can win hard. England learned more about themselves today than they would have done had they smash France.
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Post by majesticimperialman Sun 06 Dec 2020, 5:54 pm

I think based on todays game the saying depends what France team turns up, after todays game it as to be said it does not matter which French team turn up you know you have been in a game.

i really think England was not expecting France too come at them the way they did. the way they stopped Johnny may from getting in to his stride is something to be admired.

If these players get plenty of game time they (France) will be in good stead for the RWC final who ever they face.

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Post by king_carlos Sun 06 Dec 2020, 6:10 pm

1.Genge - 5 - Good in the scrum but knock on at end of first half, missed a tackle early on and penalised at a ruck. Marler was strong when he came on.
2.George - 5 - Missed tackle on Jalibert led to try and quiet afterwards. LCD made an impact.
3.Sinckler - 5 - Solid in scrum but not prominent around the park. Stuart did well.
4.Launchbury - 5 - A 4th player out of 4 who was outplayed by his replacement.
5.Itoje - 8 - Excellent in the second half when England needed him.
6.Curry - 6 - First half was poorest I've seen him in a while. Second half much better.
7.Underhill - 6 - Didn't do that much wrong (the ruck penalty for attacking beyond the ball attributed to him by commentary was actually Curry) but hooked for Earl. A quiet game in an very good Autumn otherwise.
8.Vunipola - 7.5 - Very good defensively but not the usual impact ball in hand. Fortunate that the knock on in extra time wasn't capitalised on by France. Surprised he won MOM to be honest.

9.Youngs - 4 - When England moved the ball in the second half his service was much better. Once Dulin was covering kicks so well they needed to kick shorter to challenge or look to find grass. Lenny did neither. His clearances (actual touch finders) when England were really under the cosh did relieve pressure though.
10.Ford - 5 - A couple of nice touches in the second half when England actually looked to use the ball.

11.May - 7 - Little to do in attack but solid as ever in defence.
12.Farrell - 4 - His poorest game in a long while.
13.Slade - 4 - A poor game in a very unbalanced midfield.
14.Watson - 6 - Cleaned up some good kicks from Dulin well. I wish England used him more ball in hand.
15.Daly - 5 - Uncharacteristically poor when finishing attacking opportunities. His kicking from hand had very good and pretty average moments.

16.Cowan-Dickie - 8.5 - Would have been a 9 but he gave away an unnecessary side entry pen soon after coming on. Other than that he carried powerfully, attacked rucks, tackled hard, scored the vital try and was dominant at set-piece.
17.Marler - 7 - Made his hits, scrummaged hard, no mistakes.
18.Stuart - 7 -  See Marler.
19.Hill - 7 - Made a positive impact at the lineout and around the park. Promising.
20.Earl - 7 - Early turnover was very good, sadly knocked on from a scrappy France lineout where England could have broken. His pace carrying added some impetus.
21.Robson - 7 -  The quickest I've seen his service for England.
22.Malins - 8 - Everything he did was positive.
23.Marchant - N/A - Wish he'd got a chance.

That midfield of Ford-Farrell-Slade is just so unbalanced it's pretty painful. Slade and Daly are both (usually) good distributors outwide but with no carriers to hold the defence it was just lateral. Slade running crash ball lines is a waste. Lawrence or Marchant would have offered much better balance.

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Post by Yoda Sun 06 Dec 2020, 6:12 pm

[quote="Duty281"]So England scrape a win thanks to some beneficial refereeing decisions. Against the French third team, at home, with a near-full strength line-up.

Play like that against the real France at the Six Nations and England will be demolished.'

Not sure they are third choice, some of their team today are better than the current fist team. Dulan is their best fullback on the back of his performances. Jalibert is imo slightly better than ntamack and their replacement backrow player reminds me of dusetoir, a proper player. As for ref thought any 50/50 evened themselves out.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 06 Dec 2020, 6:14 pm

I'd reckon itoje is slightly over rated in those as he was under so much pressure from Woki. Rest are fair. If and when woki gets his fitness up hes going to be a serious danger .

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Post by Recwatcher16 Sun 06 Dec 2020, 6:25 pm

Sounds like a welcome wake up game for England, in terms of the next game against France.

However the current England winning run continues with a minimal game plan and without giving anything further away tactically for the upcoming 6N. The opposition sides and media will bang on about a sterile England style but EJ is too wise to fall for that.

Farrell's off day from the kicking tee has happened again.

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Post by TJ Sun 06 Dec 2020, 6:45 pm

England have the same issues IMO that they have had for years. a limited gameplan and a total lack of midfield creativity along with no leadershipo and no plan B. If I was an england fan i would be tearing my hair out in frustration. You have the players to be the best in the world but seem to want to settle for best in the NH with a gameplan to acheive that

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 06 Dec 2020, 6:51 pm

TJ wrote:England have the same issues IMO that they have had for years. a limited gameplan and a total lack of midfield creativity along with no leadershipo and no plan B. If I was an england fan i would be tearing my hair out in frustration. You have the players to be the best in the world but seem to want to settle for best in the NH with a gameplan to acheive that

I'd ask the same question that I've never really had an answer to... cos its difficult. Why dont england have leadership and what exactly is plan a?

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Post by TJ Sun 06 Dec 2020, 7:00 pm

I think the answers are that they have had all creativity coached out of them and all ability to make decisions. they are not allowed to make decisions or to take risks. Plan A is pretty much warrenball - kick everything and wait for mistakes. No attempt at all today to create space for the backs to run

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 06 Dec 2020, 7:03 pm

Warrenball wasnt kick everything though surely?

What cha ge did you see from half time to 40 to 60 mins. And then post TJ? Because viewing tha match I thought I saw differences. Did you see any and what were they?

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Post by TJ Sun 06 Dec 2020, 7:07 pm

I didn't really see any. Wings got a couple more passes maybe but without any room to do anything otherwisde it was kick kick kick all easily dealt with

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 06 Dec 2020, 7:13 pm

Well that my question tj personally I never saw gatlandball as being g like that. More a reliance initially on a big scrum half and a reliance on a string carrying 12. Just wondering why you think England are like that give farrell at 12 is very different to the style that was coloured by gatland? Or if you were describing something else.

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Post by Cyril Sun 06 Dec 2020, 7:19 pm

TJ hates England so much it makes me a bit sad. If only he concentrated such emotion on his own side.

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Post by hugehandoff Sun 06 Dec 2020, 7:27 pm

I am so glad I made the decision to enjoy a lovely walk with friends in Richmond Park this afternoon instead of watching this dirge live. Lovely sunshine and a pleasant time enjoyed by all. Then I raced through the match mostly skipping forward in many parts. Seemed to be the same boring kicking rubbish dished up all autumn. Well done the young French lads for taking it to us. For me I would love to not watch Youngs/Farrell hoist anymore kicks for a while. Strength of character by England but little else.

Dreadful stuff and certainly a rugby turn off.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 06 Dec 2020, 7:34 pm

Pretty decent game today i thought. Suppose if you do fast forward for tries it will taint your outlook tho.

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Post by Cyril Sun 06 Dec 2020, 7:42 pm

Decent game and finally England were tested in this series. Lots to work on, but still two tournament wins and only (the currently non-playing) SA to determine if England aren’t the best side in the world.

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Post by Old Man Sun 06 Dec 2020, 7:48 pm

I don’t get all this criticism towards rugby. Currently defence overshadows attack, the referees interpretations favour defending teams, soon someone will figure out a way to break up the current defensive patterns and avoid the breakdowns.

So kicking is a powerful advantage if your kickers are tactically astute and can execute.

This is rugby, it goes through phases until someone breaks the mould and find a new way to dominate.

Lets all just love rugby for the complex game it is, this expectation of tries galore is nonsense, all this complaining about rugby being dire isn’t achieving anything.

Looking at the stats over the last number of seasons, it isn’t as if tries have dried up, they are still being scored, it is somply the tactics of game management that is currently dominated by kicking and defending teams.

Argentina got a win against NZ, which tells you a bloody good defence can beat the best attacking weapons, it is all about commitment, physicality and tactics these days.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 06 Dec 2020, 7:55 pm

Old Man wrote:I don’t get all this criticism towards rugby. Currently defence overshadows attack, the referees interpretations favour defending teams, soon someone will figure out a way to break up the current defensive patterns and avoid the breakdowns.

So kicking is a powerful advantage if your kickers are tactically astute and can execute.

This is rugby, it goes through phases until someone breaks the mould and find a new way to dominate.

Lets all just love rugby for the complex game it is, this expectation of tries galore is nonsense, all this complaining about rugby being dire isn’t achieving anything.

Looking at the stats over the last number of seasons, it isn’t as if tries have dried up, they are still being scored, it is somply the tactics of game management that is currently dominated by kicking and defending teams.

Argentina got a win against NZ, which tells you a bloody good defence can beat the best attacking weapons, it is all about commitment, physicality and tactics these days.

Spot on. Tactics vary. I think from an English perspective the criticism has mainly been the quality of the implementation of those tactics. Bar the the guys like woodward etc.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 06 Dec 2020, 8:22 pm

Bar I presume the guy who disliked this and didnt add thoughts who is presumably just abe.

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Post by lostinwales Sun 06 Dec 2020, 10:10 pm

hugehandoff wrote:I am so glad I made the decision to enjoy a lovely walk with friends in Richmond Park this afternoon instead of watching this dirge live. Lovely sunshine and a pleasant time enjoyed by all. Then I raced through the match mostly skipping forward in many parts. Seemed to be the same boring kicking rubbish dished up all autumn. Well done the young French lads for taking it to us. For me I would love to not watch Youngs/Farrell hoist anymore kicks for a while. Strength of character by England but little else.

Dreadful stuff and certainly a rugby turn off.

I enjoyed this game and thought it was much more fun than the recent England performances, althought that was mainly due to the French efforts. England attack was as blunt as ever and kicks which don't do anything really don't help but it was a vast improvement on last week's Wales game.

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 06 Dec 2020, 11:54 pm

Let us not forget that mindless play down on the French line. One zillion pick-and-goes when England had a massive overlap. Either Youngs was ignored or he didn't take charge. That was really bad play.

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Post by Gooseberry Mon 07 Dec 2020, 8:16 am

doctor_grey wrote:Let us not forget that mindless play down on the French line.  One zillion pick-and-goes when England had a massive overlap.  Either Youngs was ignored or he didn't take charge.  That was really bad play.

Should've kicked it.

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Post by Gooseberry Mon 07 Dec 2020, 8:47 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Old Man wrote:I don’t get all this criticism towards rugby. Currently defence overshadows attack, the referees interpretations favour defending teams, soon someone will figure out a way to break up the current defensive patterns and avoid the breakdowns.

So kicking is a powerful advantage if your kickers are tactically astute and can execute.

This is rugby, it goes through phases until someone breaks the mould and find a new way to dominate.

Lets all just love rugby for the complex game it is, this expectation of tries galore is nonsense, all this complaining about rugby being dire isn’t achieving anything.

Looking at the stats over the last number of seasons, it isn’t as if tries have dried up, they are still being scored, it is somply the tactics of game management that is currently dominated by kicking and defending teams.

Argentina got a win against NZ, which tells you a bloody good defence can beat the best attacking weapons, it is all about commitment, physicality and tactics these days.

Spot on. Tactics vary. I think from an English perspective the criticism has mainly been the quality of the implementation of those tactics. Bar the the guys like woodward etc.

The criticism on the quality of the play is quite valid, but I don't think its true that thats the criticism that England are receiving on here from many or in the media. The fans (specially selected for tickets) were booing the kicking duel too. Straight up England have been called boring by multiple sources, and Jones was asked after the game if he thought England had a duty to entertain the fans. No great shock he wasnt impressed by the question. Suspect Genge had sausages for breakfast this morning, but it was pretty apparent from the post game interviews that the players expect a pretty tough debrief today.

England kicked the ball less than France and passed more. Are France getting hammered for the mindless sequence of midfield pick and drives going backwards trying to set up a drop goal ( who even drops goals nowadays? its not 2003) ? The commentators criticized England for not offloading and cooed over France doing it ...England offloaded 10 times France 3. France took part in that extended kicking duel, then screwed it up by passing in their own 22 and gifted England attacking possession. Its also hard to score tries when the opposition infringe on every possession in their half you have but don't get carded for it.


I'm in two thoughts about Farrell. There was a discussion on here a few days ago about the perception he might be a bit of a flake in big games, you can look at this two ways that he held his nerve in two huge moments or that he had a the sort of game you simply cant accept from a goal kicker at this level, even with Daly taking the long one. If Ford can offer the same level of goal kicking and Slade the same level of tactical kicking from 12 would England gain more from the additional running threat and creativity? Farrell is clearly respected by coaches and players for the sort of play fans dont appreciate, but if Jones was having doubts about him as a 12 and a leader then failing to nail that last kick might've made a decision there easier. It took him a long time to let go of Hartley, and its certainly not a b/w decision that he should've moved on sooner, but circumstances forced the change in the end which probably benefitted England in the longer term.

Another player in that bracket is Daly, who got an honourable mention in the player of the tournament list in spite of getting regularly hammered on here. He fully deserves to be in the 23, and his long kicking as much as it upsets the fans is a heck of a weapon. But I'm not convinced he's developed as well in taking the high balls as you'd like to see from someone who's now had two years as the starting fullback.

Certainly not one for chucking the whole team in the bin off the back of a shady performance and 9 consecutive wins, but England definitely have things to work on if they want to be ranked number one and beat a full strength France in 3 months. Dont feel they have addressed much over the course of these games in that regard which is really disappointing, but we certainly now cant argue against any big changes that Jones does choose to make for the 6 nations. The senior players have shown their limitations.

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Post by Cumbrian Mon 07 Dec 2020, 9:03 am

I was pretty impressed with the French players. I reckon Woki, Macalou and Jalibert will be around their first team squad for years. If you add them in to the overall French squad, a trip to Paris starts to look very intimidating again.

England's performance was very poor though. Perhaps there was a degree of complacency? The French were very aggressive and powerful when attacking the breakdown too. I won't bother reiterating about England's need for a back up plan (it is starting to sound like we're in an echo chamber), it is worrying how superb attacking players like Daly, Watson (and even Jonny May) looked like they didn't have a clue what to do with the ball in hand anymore. They almost looked frightened to try anything except kick.

I guess that might have been down to the pressure building up on them as the match went on. If Farrell had kicked his (very easy) goals and England had managed to get into the lead, I suspect they would have been a bit more relaxed and things might have stuck better. They had more than enough territory and possession to dominate the match in the second half.
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Post by Collapse2005 Mon 07 Dec 2020, 9:19 am

Cyril wrote:Decent game and finally England were tested in this series. Lots to work on, but still two tournament wins and only (the currently non-playing) SA to determine if England aren’t the best side in the world.

In two games this year England couldnt beat France over 80 minutes home and away. One loss and one draw. I think this year France have already demonstrated that England aren't necessarily the best side in the world.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 07 Dec 2020, 9:34 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
Cyril wrote:Decent game and finally England were tested in this series. Lots to work on, but still two tournament wins and only (the currently non-playing) SA to determine if England aren’t the best side in the world.

In two games this year England couldnt beat France over 80 minutes home and away. One loss and one draw. I think this year France have already demonstrated that England aren't necessarily the best side in the world.
The results show 1 loss and 1 win...


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