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Lions Watch: Six Nations Report

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Post by whatahitson Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:08 am

First topic message reminder :

Well we're nearly done with the Six Nations so if the Lions goes ahead who do you like the look of and who do you think will be touring?

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Post by lostinwales Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:05 am

Soul Requiem wrote:Jonny May has scored 29 of his 33 international teams against tier 1 nations (i've not included the two he's scored against Italy), I wonder how the other available wingers compare?

I actually think that's more than them all.

I looked up some stats earlier. There are 4 players still active who have scored more than 30 international tries. These include May, Earls and North. Earls has 34 tries. North 45 but both have played 50% more games than May, whose try rate is one every other game. This is significantly higher than any other active player on that list. Of course LRZ currently has a higher hit rate (I am sure others will as well)  but has only played a handful of games.

There may be arguments that he's past it or off form, but he still has a knack of scoring some outrageous tries (like the dive vs Italy), as well as make more than his fair share for others.

We are not objective in our assessment of players (some - like TJ - even less than others). There is also a case of what kind of game you want to play, which always makes for some 'interesting' selections, but an on form May is still one of the finest wings in world rugby.

Worth remembering who LRZ is learning from.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:01 am

I think we need to look at this pragmatically, if we were having the Lions squad chat 6 weeks ago, none of us, even us Welsh would pick LRZ, and to be honest, I would not necessarily have him down as first choice now either, but I think the Lions would be a lot worse off without him on tour, he has stepped up and taken his chance with both hands, he has been a revelation. He has had about three tries disallowed for marginal calls, that were not his fault.

Now I am not saying Johnny May is rubbish, far from it, but he was creamed by Keith Earls last time out, nobody can deny this, and his form this 6N is to be fair, a bit patchy. He does tend to run down blind ally's.

So who else ?

For me Josh Adams is a must. Any of the Irish wingers ? Earls at a push, Lowe, no chance, he is good in a dominant Leinster side, but he was found wanting in the 6N. Any of the Scottish wingers ? Maitland didn't go last time, has he improved enough for Gatland this time ? I don't think so. Van der Merwe, is he seriously better than all the rest ? Not for me.

To be honest, if we were having this conversation 6/7 weeks ago, I would have picked May and Adams, with Hogg at full back. But what this 6N has done is thrown a youngster into the mix, that everybody wants in the team, but nobody wants to drop "their" player for him.

On form in this 6N it's hard not to argue for a back three of Adams, LRZ, Hogg. Thats the three I think will go on tour, but I would not be surprised to see LRZ miss out. Then it's who else goes, I think it would be May and Earles, and Liam Williams. Watson could very well go instead of LRZ, but it's marginal.

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Post by Brendan Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:01 am

alive555 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Yeah we've already seen that LRZ is quicker and VDM and May. I guess some individuals didn't watch it.


comparing one player at full speed vs another defending from a standing start is a ridiculous comparison

There is a YouTube clip that looks at these and shows that May is still faster even at 30. Also May currently is the best runner ball in hand of the home nations.

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Post by Brendan Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:30 am

As I have said previously while the 6Nations is great all the big games to come in Europe and domestic leagues will have the biggest impact especially with all the SA players playing both domestic leagues.

Gats will pick Celtic players based on how they go against the SA teams in the Rainbow Cup.  If your team gets tanked by all the SA teams are you really going to get picked.  This puts Edinburgh and Blues fans at a disadvantage.  Adams and VDM losing badly against the big sides will have an impact.  North Williams, Earls and Stockdale holding their own will paint a different picture.  Earls will have a big day v Toulouse.

With no relegation and Glaws not doing well we don't know what team will be put out and if May or LRZ will stand out in a poor team or have it dent their chances.  Their game agaist La Rochelle will be a big game for both wingers against a physical team.

If any of the top wingers go on a run with their team they will be more liking to go.  That is how it has been.  Second thing is how many positions can they play as that is important for injuries in a very physical tour.

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Post by BamBam Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:51 am

If May getting “creamed” by Earls rules him out, no winger who has ever been sidestepped after over pursuing should be in the squad.

Once that happened, May from a turning, standing start is never catching Earls, and nor would Usain Bolt. I appreciate the Welsh are overjoyed with their shiny new toy, but the hyperbole aimed at May is getting silly

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Post by mikey_dragon Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:13 am

Yet us Welsh keep saying May should tour. He hasn't been in great form, whilst LRZ has been the opposite. It's perfectly normal to discuss that. Anyone struggling with this must have gammon for brains.

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Post by mikey_dragon Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:14 am

lostinwales wrote:

Worth remembering who LRZ is learning from.

Ollie Thorley?

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Post by king_carlos Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:49 am

Something that previous tours have shown us is that predicting starting line-ups is near pointless this far out. With injuries between now and the tour being named, then injuries between the tour being named and the first flight, finally injuries on tour the side always looks completely different to what we'd expect. 

Very few would have predicted Corbisiero having the impact he did in 2013. Likewise Croft in 2009. Arguably Rob Kearney in 2009 - Lee Byrne was playing wonderfully before injury. Sheridan in 2009 - John Smit moving to tighthead facilitated that. Simon Shaw in 2009 - the Boks mauling game brought him to the fore. Ben Teo in 2017 - Henshaw and Manu crocked. Daly on the wing in 2017 - he was excellent on that tour despite about half a dozen previous games on the wing. Jamie George in 2017 - England reserve but started all the tests. Tom Youngs in 2013 - surprised many by starting 2 tests. Geoff Parling in 2013 - POC's injury meant he played a key role.

If fit I'd put good money on all of Hogg, Williams, Adams, LZR, Watson and May being in the touring party. From there it comes down to who stays fit and who performs in the touring games.

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Post by lostinwales Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:20 am

Watson has done the Lions thing, played well, and is on decent form. Interesting times.

As for players coming in from nowhere to playing pivotal roles Bentley is one that comes to mind. Barely played for England before or after his Lions tour.

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Post by whatahitson Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:44 am

Brendan wrote:

If we are worried about Earls against big men then maybe other players shouldn't be going at all based on defensive work.


It's risk v reward. Earls doesn't offer what North or VDM offer on the win in attack so his superior defence and kicking game doesn't directly compensate for that loss. The squad will need balance between strike wingers and more rounded wingers who can cover 15. Watson, Adams fit in to the latter category but are also very effective going forward and scoring tries for fun. That means eventhough they might not be as directly lethal as May can be when given space, or North and VDM are when bumping off players down the middle, their all round game puts them in the conversation.

Earls doesn't have the same level as balance. If the Lions are picking a winger based on defensive abilities they're in trouble. Halfpenny is a top defensive player but probably won't tour given that Daly can do more and offers the long range kick. Earls isn't in the convo for me. Stockdale would have been had he played.

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Post by whatahitson Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:51 am

Brendan wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Brendan wrote:Gatland in his years thought he was a good winger as did Sarries. So happy with my opinion too.

Gatland picked Liam Williams at wing years ago, as soon as Adams came on the scene, he was 1st choice, also, Adams did not play for Sarries, so how could he possibly be compared to what Sarries thought ?

If you want to talk about Liam Williams, then you need to compare him with Hogg, because they share the same positions, and that's what they are best at. Now that will be a debate that will go on for ever. Laugh

Must not have been clear.  At Sarries they saw him very much as a winger including big games like finals.  If some of the best coaches feel He is good enough for wing in great teams where places are hard earned, he must be good.  Not sure Adam's has had competition for his place in any team mainly due to backups being poor.

Adams very much is a winger and only a winger so if Gatland tries to do the bench like SA people who are only wingers wont be on the Bench especially as so many other backs can cover many positions.

Adams played full back multiple times for Worcester and was good there unlike Stockdale/Henshaw. He also had 1 try in every 2 games at Worcester who were dire so that's his club record as well.

Adams and Watson are nailed on they've been the two best wingers in the home nations since 2018/19.

After that it's the strike wingers. You can't argue with May's pace and ability to disrupt the high ball. You can't argue with North's overall power. It then comes down to whether they add someone else knowing North can cover 13. Maybe another utility back like Daly. Or maybe Duhan VDM.

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Post by whatahitson Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:54 am

TJ wrote: Nonsense - Duhan is outrageously fast.  Duhan is a bit of an oil tanker turning but up to speed - very few can catch him.

LRZ sailed past him in the Scotland v Wales game.

For my money May and LRZ are equally fast. May was fatigued in the Englan game after a big run when the break occurred. Also when he reached top speed there wasn't much in it.

Not sure how Duhan VDM compares but he doesn't look as fast as either. Still fast enough though, as is Stockdale.

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Post by doctor_grey Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:43 am

These guys, and I include LRZ a bit on faith, either already are, or are developing into big time players. I'm not going to quibble about an area of talent like the wings. Except when May has to flank in the scrum.

I do want to see Hogg start at the back.

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Post by whatahitson Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:41 pm

Hogg is nailed on a 15.

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Post by alive555 Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:59 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Oakdene wrote:
alive555 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Yeah we've already seen that LRZ is quicker and VDM and May. I guess some individuals didn't watch it.


comparing one player at full speed vs another defending from a standing start is a ridiculous comparison

True however he was still much faster than May.

Faster than May and VDM.

Similar to May, and about half the power of VDM.

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Post by alive555 Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:00 pm

whatahitson wrote:Hogg is nailed on a 15.

Right now, 1st name on the teamsheet.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:04 pm

lostinwales wrote:Watson has done the Lions thing, played well, and is on decent form. Interesting times.

As for players coming in from nowhere to playing pivotal roles Bentley is one that comes to mind. Barely played for England before or after his Lions tour.

He was awesome on that 97 tour to SA. I always remember asking where the hell he came from. Matt Dawson took his chance on that tour as well after Howley injured his shoulder, but that tour will always be remembered for Scott Gibbs.

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Post by mikey_dragon Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:23 pm

alive555 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Oakdene wrote:
alive555 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Yeah we've already seen that LRZ is quicker and VDM and May. I guess some individuals didn't watch it.


comparing one player at full speed vs another defending from a standing start is a ridiculous comparison

True however he was still much faster than May.

Faster than May and VDM.

Similar to May, and about half the power of VDM.

Yet faster than both and a better player, as proven in the 6N. People really don't like it when a Welsh player is good laughing

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Post by alive555 Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:34 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
alive555 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Oakdene wrote:
alive555 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Yeah we've already seen that LRZ is quicker and VDM and May. I guess some individuals didn't watch it.


comparing one player at full speed vs another defending from a standing start is a ridiculous comparison

True however he was still much faster than May.

Faster than May and VDM.

Similar to May, and about half the power of VDM.

Yet faster than both and a better player, as proven in the 6N. People really don't like it when a Welsh player is good laughing

According to you, not according to any verifiable statistic. Anyone who knows rugby knows May is probably the fastest winger in international rugby. If RZ is of similar speed good luck. Faster, no. Similar, probably.
On thing is for sure he hasn't anything like the power of VDM. You don't need that verified. Its a fact.

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Post by R!skysports Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:43 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
alive555 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Oakdene wrote:
alive555 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Yeah we've already seen that LRZ is quicker and VDM and May. I guess some individuals didn't watch it.


comparing one player at full speed vs another defending from a standing start is a ridiculous comparison

True however he was still much faster than May.

Faster than May and VDM.

Similar to May, and about half the power of VDM.

Yet faster than both and a better player, as proven in the 6N. People really don't like it when a Welsh player is good laughing

Ah the Welsh card...wondered when that would come out. I think if you read the threads everyone has said he is good. They may disagree that after one good 6n he is better than everyone else by a mile.

So looking at the threads...it seems that everyones dad is slightly bigger than everyone elses.

On the speed.......who cares.....May and LRZ both seem extremely fast and if one is 0.0000001 s faster does not make a toss of difference . It is how they play, positioning as well as attack and defence.

LRZ had a very good 6 nations and rightly is  being praised for that...but to say better than May after one tournament is very rash. May had been there and done it. LRZ needs to continue to perform like that before you can start comparing - and if he does he has a bright future. I think he will be on the lions and will be fighting for a test start and has earnt that....but lets stop the early 'he is better than'

May even played is a poor side and still was dangerous - so it is impossible to compare apples with pears.

The same goes for VDM  - lets see how he continues to play before we start comparing

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Post by mikey_dragon Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:49 pm

alive555 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
alive555 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Oakdene wrote:
alive555 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Yeah we've already seen that LRZ is quicker and VDM and May. I guess some individuals didn't watch it.


comparing one player at full speed vs another defending from a standing start is a ridiculous comparison

True however he was still much faster than May.

Faster than May and VDM.

Similar to May, and about half the power of VDM.

Yet faster than both and a better player, as proven in the 6N. People really don't like it when a Welsh player is good laughing

According to you, not according to any verifiable statistic. Anyone who knows rugby knows May is probably the fastest winger in international rugby. If RZ is of similar speed good luck. Faster, no. Similar, probably.  
On thing is for sure he hasn't anything like the power of VDM. You don't need that verified. Its a fact.

Not sure why you keep bringing the South African into it, but I do rate him. LRZ is faster than both and in better form. That's a fact.

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Post by R!skysports Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:53 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
alive555 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
alive555 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Oakdene wrote:
alive555 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Yeah we've already seen that LRZ is quicker and VDM and May. I guess some individuals didn't watch it.


comparing one player at full speed vs another defending from a standing start is a ridiculous comparison

True however he was still much faster than May.

Faster than May and VDM.

Similar to May, and about half the power of VDM.

Yet faster than both and a better player, as proven in the 6N. People really don't like it when a Welsh player is good laughing

According to you, not according to any verifiable statistic. Anyone who knows rugby knows May is probably the fastest winger in international rugby. If RZ is of similar speed good luck. Faster, no. Similar, probably.  
On thing is for sure he hasn't anything like the power of VDM. You don't need that verified. Its a fact.

Not sure why you keep bringing the South African into it, but I do rate him. LRZ is faster than both and in better form. That's a fact.


There, taht is why people get their backs up. You put your opinion up as fact and shout down anyone who disagrees. Where is you facts to prove that statement

Here - let me help

JONNY MAY – England – 10.71 SECONDS (100M) The speedster clocked 10.71 for the 100 metres

Louis Rees-Zammit – Wales – 11.1 SECONDS The exciting Gloucester youngster has been timed at 11.1 seconds, having frequently shown defenders a clean pair of heels with his thrilling try exploits in the English Premiership

So there you go. I have PROVED you wrong with a real fact :-)

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Post by R!skysports Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:54 pm

BOOOM

https://www.ruck.co.uk/if-you-entered-every-six-nations-player-into-a-100m-race-who-would-win/3/


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Post by R!skysports Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:59 pm

And on form. What is your criteria?

Tries?

TRIES
England Anthony Watson 4
Wales Louis Rees-Zammit 4
France Antoine Dupont 3
Wales Josh Adams 3
Scotland Duhan van der Merwe 3 (one game to play)

Metres made

ETRES MADE
England Elliot Daly 434
Ireland James Lowe 433
Scotland Duhan van der Merwe 432 (one game to play)
Italy Monty Ioane 400
France Brice Dulin 385

Try assists?
TRY ASSISTS
France Antoine Dupont 4
Scotland Ali Price 3
Scotland Stuart Hogg 2
England Dan Robson 2
Wales Josh Navidi 2

https://www.sixnationsrugby.com/statistics/


Your opinion is he is in better form....some may disagree.....however it is not FACT

(sorry the stating things are fact really bothers me, especially when any discussion resorts huffs :-) )


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Post by The Oracle Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:05 pm

Both as bad as each other Crying or Very sad
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Post by mikey_dragon Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:07 pm

Going from "..it seems that everyones dad is slightly bigger than everyone elses." to this:

R!skysports wrote:There, taht is why people get their backs up. You put your opinion up as fact and shout down anyone who disagrees. Where is you facts to prove that statement

Here - let me help

JONNY MAY – England – 10.71 SECONDS (100M) The speedster clocked 10.71 for the 100 metres

Louis Rees-Zammit – Wales – 11.1 SECONDS The exciting Gloucester youngster has been timed at 11.1 seconds, having frequently shown defenders a clean pair of heels with his thrilling try exploits in the English Premiership

So there you go. I have PROVED you wrong with a real fact :-)

Jeez how pathetic. May was tested over 40 metres and that was in 2017. What is the recent timing? LRZ has not undergone any spring training but yet he has hit 36.34km/h or 10.1 metres a second on GPS, suggesting a sprint off between the pair would be a foregone conclusion. The stats you are showing for LRZ must be a little out of date, seeing as the recent 6N showed who is fastest. Less of the coat-tailing, it's making you look like an angry man. Imagine being angry over a Welsh player being good.


Last edited by mikey_dragon on Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by The Oracle Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:08 pm

R!skysports wrote:And on form. What is your criteria?

Tries?

TRIES
England Anthony Watson 4
Wales Louis Rees-Zammit 4
France Antoine Dupont 3
Wales Josh Adams 3
Scotland Duhan van der Merwe 3 (one game to play)

Metres made

ETRES MADE
England Elliot Daly 434
Ireland James Lowe 433
Scotland Duhan van der Merwe 432 (one game to play)
Italy Monty Ioane 400
France Brice Dulin 385

Try assists?
TRY ASSISTS
France Antoine Dupont 4
Scotland Ali Price 3
Scotland Stuart Hogg 2
England Dan Robson 2
Wales Josh Navidi 2

https://www.sixnationsrugby.com/statistics/


Your opinion is he is in better form....some may disagree.....however it is not FACT

(sorry the stating things are fact really bothers me, especially when any discussion resorts huffs :-) )


Those 'facts' above are meaningless on their own without also seeing how many games those stats were over.  It's like just looking at COVID total deaths for a country without looking at population size (i.e. the rate).
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Post by mikey_dragon Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:10 pm

R!skysports wrote:
Your opinion is he is in better form....some may disagree.....however it is not FACT

(sorry the stating things are fact really bothers me, especially when any discussion resorts huffs :-) )


It's not a foregone conclusion for me, as LRZ is still 20 and will probably get faster whilst May gets slower. I was replying to someone else, who stated it's a fact. You didn't throw your toys out of the pram at them though, did you? Pathetic behaviour.

I imagine LRZ or AWJ will be play of the tournament. Now that would blow a few fuses. Very Happy

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Post by Soul Requiem Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:13 pm

alive555 wrote:
whatahitson wrote:Hogg is nailed on a 15.

Right now, 1st name on the teamsheet.

I rate Hogg very highly but I wouldn't be surprised or disappointed to see Liam Williams starting at 15, they could of course both realistically play and it's the way i'd go personally with Watson on the other wing.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:15 pm

What an excellent debate guys.....Rolling Eyes

For what it's worth, LRZ is probably the quickest winger in the Premiership on a rugby pitch....you know, where the speed actually counts. I would say Adam Radwan is a close 2nd.

May has always been quick, but has lost a yard or so this last year or so. I really wouldn't take too much from those figures if I'm honest.

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Post by mikey_dragon Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:17 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:What an excellent debate guys.

Thanks thumbsup

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Post by The Oracle Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:17 pm

I'm probably in the minority here as a Welshman, but Liam Williams has lost something over the last couple of years for me.  Maybe lost a bit of pace or something.  But I just don't think he's as good as he was and for me that does not make him a Lions starter.  He's still fairly safe under the high ball but, like Halfpenny, he's started to spill more than he used to.  He still makes yards in contact somehow, as he's a wriggly little so and so.  But I don't think he's as good as he was last Lions tour.  I'd therefore prefer Hogg at 15 and some out and out wingers on the wing (any of Watson, LZR, Adams, May, Duhan, etc.).
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Post by mikey_dragon Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:19 pm

Before I get accused of being a May-hater... check my posting history. I rate him. I've picked him to tour, and think he'll probably still start.

My picks are Watson, May, Hogg, VDM, Adams, LRZ, Williams and Lowe.... Yep Lowe so he can destroy the midweek teams.

Part of me can still see Gatland selecting Mako, Billy, Itoje and Farrell for the test team... Remember, he sticks to tried and tested methods.

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Post by R!skysports Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:27 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
R!skysports wrote:
Your opinion is he is in better form....some may disagree.....however it is not FACT

(sorry the stating things are fact really bothers me, especially when any discussion resorts huffs :-) )


It's not a foregone conclusion for me, as LRZ is still 20 and will probably get faster whilst May gets slower. I was replying to someone else, who stated it's a fact. You didn't throw your toys out of the pram at them though, did you? Pathetic behaviour.

I imagine LRZ or AWJ will be play of the tournament. Now that would blow a few fuses. Very Happy

I get annoyed when people use the excuse - that is because he is Welsh - the try and shut down any debate.

I don't know who is quicker or who is the better player, as if changes from game to game. I also don't state it is fact then not have any evidence to back it up.

I have and most have already said he has had a great 6 nations and if he continues on that form, will be a special player for years to come...

LRZ or AWJ will be play of the tournament - They could be, but would think more likey LRZ, but that is again my opinion

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Post by LordDowlais Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:29 pm

The Oracle wrote:
R!skysports wrote:And on form. What is your criteria?

Tries?

TRIES
England Anthony Watson 4
Wales Louis Rees-Zammit 4
France Antoine Dupont 3
Wales Josh Adams 3
Scotland Duhan van der Merwe 3 (one game to play)

Metres made

ETRES MADE
England Elliot Daly 434
Ireland James Lowe 433
Scotland Duhan van der Merwe 432 (one game to play)
Italy Monty Ioane 400
France Brice Dulin 385

Try assists?
TRY ASSISTS
France Antoine Dupont 4
Scotland Ali Price 3
Scotland Stuart Hogg 2
England Dan Robson 2
Wales Josh Navidi 2

https://www.sixnationsrugby.com/statistics/


Your opinion is he is in better form....some may disagree.....however it is not FACT

(sorry the stating things are fact really bothers me, especially when any discussion resorts huffs :-) )


Those 'facts' above are meaningless on their own without also seeing how many games those stats were over.  It's like just looking at COVID total deaths for a country without looking at population size (i.e. the rate).

Also, LRZ had about three tries harshly ruled out, and perhaps Johnny Mays "jump" try against Italy should not have been allowed. All ifs and buts. Rolling Eyes

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Post by BamBam Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:32 pm

As ever, it comes down to what style of play Gatland wants from his front 3, if you want to pick 3 to optimise a certain style, there's such variety of combinations

Strike running - Hogg, May, LRZ
High ball strength - Keenan, May, Watson
Kicking - Hogg, Lowe, Daly
Finishers - Watson, Duhan, Adams
Defence - Williams, Nowell, Maitland

So expect North, Halfpenny and Cuthbert


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Post by BamBam Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:33 pm

Surely Dupont is player of the tournament if they win it

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Post by LordDowlais Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:35 pm

There are a few Scottish fans on here who are getting their nickers in a twist before anyone has been picked.

I wonder if the remit will still be the same this year ? Last time the Lions were picked Scotland finished above Wales in the 6N and as we had a bigger representation than them there was bloody murder on here, and us Welsh kopped it.

Guess what ? Perhaps this time they can all moan if any English players get picked instead of Scottish, I wont hold my breath though, as I cannot see any of them saying that their players should go instead of any English ones. They will still say that AWJ should not be there blah, blah, blah.

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Post by R!skysports Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:35 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
R!skysports wrote:And on form. What is your criteria?

Tries?

TRIES
England Anthony Watson 4
Wales Louis Rees-Zammit 4
France Antoine Dupont 3
Wales Josh Adams 3
Scotland Duhan van der Merwe 3 (one game to play)

Metres made

ETRES MADE
England Elliot Daly 434
Ireland James Lowe 433
Scotland Duhan van der Merwe 432 (one game to play)
Italy Monty Ioane 400
France Brice Dulin 385

Try assists?
TRY ASSISTS
France Antoine Dupont 4
Scotland Ali Price 3
Scotland Stuart Hogg 2
England Dan Robson 2
Wales Josh Navidi 2

https://www.sixnationsrugby.com/statistics/


Your opinion is he is in better form....some may disagree.....however it is not FACT

(sorry the stating things are fact really bothers me, especially when any discussion resorts huffs :-) )


Those 'facts' above are meaningless on their own without also seeing how many games those stats were over.  It's like just looking at COVID total deaths for a country without looking at population size (i.e. the rate).

Also, LRZ had about three tries harshly ruled out, and perhaps Johnny Mays "jump" try against Italy should not have been allowed. All ifs and buts. Rolling Eyes

These are from this 6 nations games

Yes, I agree and sorry I got a bit hot and bothered. I just react to the argument that the only reason we have a different opinion is because he is Welsh, which seems to be thrown around alot.

I really rate LRZ and think he could be become a very special player. But he is young and will be marked differently going forward. lets see how he goes over the next few years.

Certainly on the plane for the lions and would not be out of place on the test side based on this 6 nations

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Post by R!skysports Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:50 pm

LordDowlais wrote:There are a few Scottish fans on here who are getting their nickers in a twist before anyone has been picked.

I wonder if the remit will still be the same this year ? Last time the Lions were picked Scotland finished above Wales in the 6N and as we had a bigger representation than them there was bloody murder on here, and us Welsh kopped it.

Guess what ?  Perhaps this time they can all moan if any English players get picked instead of Scottish, I wont hold my breath though, as I cannot see any of them saying that their players should go instead of any English ones. They will still say that AWJ should not be there blah, blah, blah.  

Of course there will and already have been. Farrel, Ford, Billy to name a few.

really take you blinkers off - this is not all about us not wanting Welsh players, we want the right ones.....and have the right strategy to win...which is what mosst people felt was wrong in the last tours.

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Post by BamBam Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:56 pm

R!skysports wrote:

Of course there will and already have been. Farrel, Ford, Billy to name a few.

You just don't want those players because they're English boxing

(am I doing this right?)

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Post by whatahitson Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:02 pm

The Oracle wrote:I'm probably in the minority here as a Welshman, but Liam Williams has lost something over the last couple of years for me.  Maybe lost a bit of pace or something.  

The difference between him at 15 v Halfpenny is very clear. He's top drawer in attack but gives away quite a lot defensively. Halfpenny is such a pain to play against and still a top player. I thought England showed Liam Williams' defence up a few times this year, nothing major but just a few weaknesses relating to positioning but also as a last man in defence. Obviously his yellow card against France is the other aspect to his game, taking risks that sometimes don't pay off.

Hogg is the best back in Europe after Dupont though. There's a lot of competition for the 23 shirt but Liam Williams wouldn't be a bad option for it.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:08 pm

R!skysports wrote:Try assists?
TRY ASSISTS
France Antoine Dupont 4
Scotland Ali Price 3
Scotland Stuart Hogg 2
England Dan Robson 2
Wales Josh Navidi 2

This cannot be right, surely ?

I am sure LRZ assisted a few tries. Liam Williams against Scotland and Faletau against Italy are two that spring to mind.

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Post by whatahitson Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:11 pm

LordDowlais wrote:There are a few Scottish fans on here who are getting their nickers in a twist before anyone has been picked.

I wonder if the remit will still be the same this year ? Last time the Lions were picked Scotland finished above Wales in the 6N and as we had a bigger representation than them there was bloody murder on here, and us Welsh kopped it.

Guess what ?  Perhaps this time they can all moan if any English players get picked instead of Scottish, I wont hold my breath though, as I cannot see any of them saying that their players should go instead of any English ones. They will still say that AWJ should not be there blah, blah, blah.  

Last time there were 2 marginally better teams based on European performances from the 2015 world cup through to the 2017 six nations. That was Wales and England. Ireland still had class and had beaten the All Blacks the autumn before the tour but then lost to Wales in the six nations, and Scotland then made a late stake with a good showing in 2017.

This time there is only one dominant team from 2019 to 2021 yet they are completely out of form and have lost to all the other 3 teams. As for the other 3, the two best sides had a dreadful 2020 while Scotland haven't been able to captialise on other sides' weak periods to any great extent.

A lot will therefore come down to individual talent and experience moreso than form.

You can't ignore the English players like George, Daly, and Youngs. At their best they're up there with the best the Lions could pick and it shouldn't take much to get them up there for the Lions.

Scotland's best players have suffered injuries at the wrong time and durability might be a major factor in who tours (worrying for Underhill). Cummings, Gray, the two Scottish hookers, even Hastings - their lack of game time hasn't helped them as they haven't shown the required experience and they don't have the talent Watson and Hogg do.

It should really be an equal split between the big 3 teams given Wales' resurgence after an awful 2020. It's harsh on Scotland but I can't see how they'll have more than 5 players on tour, and that's even giving out a few 'bolter' positions to players like Huw Jones or Sam Johnson.

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Post by bsando Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:22 pm

Just to chip in on the ongoing back three discussion. I'd take seven back three and a utility back three player.

6N Options
Scotland: Hogg, Maitland, Graham and DVDM
Wales: LRZ, Williams, Adams and Halfpenny
Ireland: Earles, Lowe, Keenan and Larmour
England: May, Watson and Daly

Utility Options: Jones, Stockdale, North, Maitland, Williams, 1/2p, Larmour, Daly, Watson

From each nation, Watson, Keenan, LRZ and Hogg were all standout performers for me. I would have all four of these guys on the plane, particularly Keenan who I think has not been given enough praise for his efforts with Ireland this 6N.

Selecting three more and a utility player is where it gets tough.

Easy one would be Josh Adams for me. A reliable winger who is good in the air and a top finisher. Strong defender and strong disciplinary record.

Next, I start to think we have a strong group of back three players here, perhaps it's time to look at some attributes that are missing from that. So my next pick would be DVDM for his raw power and ability to beat defenders.

For the final pick it's a tough choice. May, Earles, Graham, Lowe and Daly all have desirable attributes that can be useful in games. I think for his all round game though Johnny May would be the right choice. His credentials have definitely been dented this 6N as he hasn't been at his best, but his finish against Italy (albeit a poor side) showed that he has that bit of sparkle and ability to do things other players can't. Still incredibly fast, strong in the carry, a player who should tour.

Then selecting one Utility player out of Jones, Stockdale, North, Maitland, Williams, 1/2p, Larmour, Daly is really tough. I think Liam Williams would be my pick simply because he has been on the last Lions tour and performed well and he has had a strong tournament for Wales this year.

Watson, Keenan, LRZ, Hogg, Adams, DVDM, May and Williams.

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Post by Collapse2005 Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:27 pm

BamBam wrote:Surely Dupont is player of the tournament if they win it

He should be regardless of whether he wins it or not.

Other top performers:
Rees Zammit
Hamish Watson
Henshaw
Keenan
AWJ

Dupont for me though has been a class above everyone else

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Post by whatahitson Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:36 pm

If Keenan tours it means the Lions are in trouble as one of Williams or Hogg is injured.

Keenan over both North and Daly if both of the full back options are fit is never going to happen.

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Post by BamBam Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:42 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
BamBam wrote:Surely Dupont is player of the tournament if they win it

He should be regardless of whether he wins it or not.

Other top performers:
Rees Zammit
Hamish Watson
Henshaw
Keenan
AWJ

Dupont for me though has been a class above everyone else

Yeah I agree but it usually goes to a player from the winning team doesn't it

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Post by alive555 Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:47 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
alive555 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
alive555 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Oakdene wrote:
alive555 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Yeah we've already seen that LRZ is quicker and VDM and May. I guess some individuals didn't watch it.


comparing one player at full speed vs another defending from a standing start is a ridiculous comparison

True however he was still much faster than May.

Faster than May and VDM.

Similar to May, and about half the power of VDM.

Yet faster than both and a better player, as proven in the 6N. People really don't like it when a Welsh player is good laughing

According to you, not according to any verifiable statistic. Anyone who knows rugby knows May is probably the fastest winger in international rugby. If RZ is of similar speed good luck. Faster, no. Similar, probably.  
On thing is for sure he hasn't anything like the power of VDM. You don't need that verified. Its a fact.

Not sure why you keep bringing the South African into it, but I do rate him. LRZ is faster than both and in better form. That's a fact.


deflection

Your claim was LRZ was faster than MAY.

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Post by alive555 Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:52 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Going from "..it seems that everyones dad is slightly bigger than everyone elses." to this:

R!skysports wrote:There, taht is why people get their backs up. You put your opinion up as fact and shout down anyone who disagrees. Where is you facts to prove that statement

Here - let me help

JONNY MAY – England – 10.71 SECONDS (100M) The speedster clocked 10.71 for the 100 metres

Louis Rees-Zammit – Wales – 11.1 SECONDS The exciting Gloucester youngster has been timed at 11.1 seconds, having frequently shown defenders a clean pair of heels with his thrilling try exploits in the English Premiership

So there you go. I have PROVED you wrong with a real fact :-)

Jeez how pathetic. May was tested over 40 metres and that was in 2017. What is the recent timing? LRZ has not undergone any spring training but yet he has hit 36.34km/h or 10.1 metres a second on GPS, suggesting a sprint off between the pair would be a foregone conclusion. The stats you are showing for LRZ must be a little out of date, seeing as the recent 6N showed who is fastest. Less of the coat-tailing, it's making you look like an angry man. Imagine being angry over a Welsh player being good.


Wrong again . Offical recorded statistics from Gloucester Rugby using GPS technology said Mays best is 1.49 in 2017, and LAST YEAR IN 2020 rees zammit hiot his all time best at 10.5. So your claim is factually mince.

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