Lions Watch: Six Nations Report

First topic message reminder :

Well we're nearly done with the Six Nations so if the Lions goes ahead who do you like the look of and who do you think will be touring?

So now the tour is going ahead in SA which is the best situation IF it goes ahead, this makes a long range kicker far more important.

Halfpenny and Daly both stand a great chance of making the squad now rather than just one of them.

whatahitson wrote:

theslosty wrote:One question about the back 3 selection:

The most likely tourists at the moment are looking like Hogg, L Williams, Adams, May, LRZ and Watson. The next 2 or 3 in line are probably VDM, Halfpenny and Earls. However if I'm not mistaken aren't all of those players right-footed? Is there an opening for a left-footer such as Daly or Stockdale?

Daly's well ahead of Earls in the pecking order. Sorry, but there's a big talent gap between Daly and Hogg. Players are judged on their team's form but they shouldn't be judged on just the last game they played. Earls has been a stalwart for Ireland but he lacks the quality needed for a Lions tour. Daly showed his class v France. At some point you have to judge ability as well as form, which is why squads that are ignoring English players like Daly, Slade, Ford, Youngs etc are going to be miles off.

A touch of arrogance coming through there for me... to say Earls lacks quality or I'm only judging him on his last game. He's been underrated outside of Ireland for years because he's been constrained by the lack of width that Ireland play with. Stockdale had a bit more joy in the Schmidt era as left wings tend to receive quicker more accurate passes and he has the size that can help him in crowded situations. For years Earls has been living on scraps on that right wing to the frustration of many Ireland fans as he's electric for Munster given a bit of space. It's funny to hear him being called a 'stalwart' or a 'workhorse' these days as although his defence and kickchase has improved he was known as much more mercurial talent for most of his career. I don't think he's a favourite to get selected as he's getting on a bit (he might have been a better shout in 2017) but if there's one or two injuries he's given himself a chance. Daly's a good player too and I think some of the criticism he gets is over the top but to say there's a gulf between him and Earls feels similar to what you said about Itoje earlier i.e. a bit of a wind up

I don't think we should over obsess about recent form either when the tour isn't until July but I'd like to remind you the likes of Beirne and Henderson haven't come out of nowhere and have been quality players for years. Daly, Slade, Ford, Youngs...? They all have a chance but I don't think it's ridiculous to consider there are better options atm

Earls is a great player but for the Lions? Yes I think he lacks quality. He has no exceptional physical attribute and he will be up against big, powerful, and FAST wingers. LRZ and May will find it hard enough, let alone Earls. I don't think he's a workhorse per se but he's not a mercurial talent is he. Compared to Hogg, Liam Williams etc then Earls is definitely not that as a test player.

Earls is a solid 6-7 out of 10 man who can do most or all of the basic jobs well but he's a bit like a player who looks really solid at a certain level, until he gets completely exposed/nullified. There are less consistent players who maybe look worse at club level in many regards but have a higher ceiling, like Stockdale. Daly is not in great form but his cameo against France showed that doesn't really matter, his basic skills are exceptional. He has pace, a great step and balance, a decent passing game, a very good kicking game, and is a long range kicking option. He can also play in 3 different positions. This is where you look at players like Huw Jones or Earls and think 'ok, yes they're good, but are they better?' and IMO no they're not.

I'm well aware of Beirne and Henshaw's quality. The failure to work Beirne in to the Irish team in the 1.5-2 years he had him was a glaring failure of Schmidt's and just about summed up his Ireland career in the end. Too focused on control that he missed what was right in front of him: talent.

Nah Earls is quality, can mix it with most players.

Very generous assessment of Earls. He's a Robshaw type. He can 'mix it' with most players but what does that actually mean? He stands up to them? He competes well? The Lions don't have to pick plucky underdogs when they have better players avaiable.

Put it this way, if Ireland had Watson or Adams available to them, would they pick Earls based on actual ability. Personally I don't think so.

Reading more in to the statement it sounds more like running out of options and just allowing things to develop then any great development towards hosting the tour in south africa.

As it stands, I think a postponement of 12 months seems likely. Which is a massive shame as I think a tour in SA this summer followed by a "tour" in the UK with fans this summer were the two best options. Postponing for 12 months, when we still don't know what the situation will be, particularly in a country like SA, seems like a big risk that even if it pays off won't be ideal other than monetarily for the unions. The consequene of having a Lions tour 12 months before a RWC is dreadful for the UK and Ireland teams from a player welfare perspective. Less so for the South Africans.

I also think we have to take in to account that so many of the Springboks haven't actually played meaningful rugby since the world cup final. They haven't played as South Africa in 1.5 years. That is a big incentive to postpone the tour so in all honesty I think the Lions have played in to their hands by failing to prepare for a UK alternative for this summer.

Postponement looks like the most likely options now.

whatahitson wrote:Very generous assessment of Earls. He's a Robshaw type. He can 'mix it' with most players but what does that actually mean? He stands up to them? He competes well? The Lions don't have to pick plucky underdogs when they have better players avaiable.

Put it this way, if Ireland had Watson or Adams available to them, would they pick Earls based on actual ability. Personally I don't think so.

Adams? Watson maybe but Earls is Irelands 2nd most prolific try scorer of all time. Ability isnt a question. He is already a Lion anyway.

Josh Adams. 17 tries in 32 tests. Earls has 34 tries in 93 tests. Not that tries are everything but if you're going to mention it.

I actually think this year the Lions have the best wing options for a long time. Certainly better than the last 3 tours. Monye, Fitzgerald, Earls, out of form Shane Williams in 2009. Wade, Cuthbert, late call up for Williams in 2013. Daly on the wing in 2017. Each tour has got progressively better. This year there should be no weak option on the wings with some quality players likely to miss out.

He has never scored v Ireland which is probably why I didnt notice him. Most of his tries were against weak sides. I doubt Earls nor Adams will be selected anyway.

New Zealand, South Africa, France, England x 2, Scotland, Argentina and Fiji x 3. A bit of a disservice to Adams to say most his tries are against weak sides.

He's scored 5 vs Italy, 1 vs Uruguay and 1 vs Georgia from weaker sides. Most home nations wingers have notched up tries against Italy over the years though. You can only beat what's in front of you after all.

There's the hat trick against Fiji in the RWC but it would be a harsh stretch to call that Fiji side weak with Tuisova and Radrada on either wing. Until Adams completed his hat trick on the 60th minute Fiji were pushing very hard in that RWC game.

Wings are certainly a position of strength. Adams is a very good player indeed but someone is going to miss out

Collapse2005 wrote:Nah Earls is quality, can mix it with most players.

Earls totally outplayed his opposite number on Saturday

He is one of those really annoying players who appears to not have a huge amount of talent only to score some great try or do some other game turning act. He is also one of the fastest around again without looking like it

Collapse2005 wrote:He has never scored v Ireland which is probably why I didnt notice him. Most of his tries were against weak sides. I doubt Earls nor Adams will be selected anyway.

Sure, totally I mean his 17 tries include scoring against New Zealand, South Africa, England, Scotland, Argentina & France but as you say most (so the other 6) were against weak sides....

Oakdene wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:He has never scored v Ireland which is probably why I didnt notice him. Most of his tries were against weak sides. I doubt Earls nor Adams will be selected anyway.

Sure, totally I mean his 17 tries include scoring against New Zealand, South Africa, England, Scotland, Argentina & France but as you say most (so the other 6) were against weak sides....

10 against weak sides, of course Fiji are weak.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Oakdene wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:He has never scored v Ireland which is probably why I didnt notice him. Most of his tries were against weak sides. I doubt Earls nor Adams will be selected anyway.

Sure, totally I mean his 17 tries include scoring against New Zealand, South Africa, England, Scotland, Argentina & France but as you say most (so the other 6) were against weak sides....

10 against weak sides, of course Fiji are weak.

Adams, Watson, LRZ, Williams & maybe May will be the wingers.

On the other hand, ex winger North scores a few tries against Ireland .

Adams is Wales third best winger behind LRZ and LW.

Earls has the best defence of any of the wingers which is why he can play centre very comfortably.

It's fine to have a winger like LRZ and others who scores lots but but let's others in just as easy. Look ant James Lowe who is great going forward but not backwards.

Against SA being fast is pointless if you can't defend against bigger players otherwise you get the situation like Ireland where the fullback as to cover that side.

Stockdale has one of the best try scoring records and did better in his first 6N then LRZ

The facts behind the stats are interesting.

LRZ scored 4 tries. Not like he broke records like Stockdale did in his breakout year. Two when teams where down to 14 men and couldn't score against France or England the two teams most like SA which says he has a phyisicallity problem. Against the SA back 3 I don't think he scores the second one v Scotland.
Adams score v England against 0 men
Watson finished on the same number of tries playing in a much weak team then LRZ.

England and Wales both had 11 tries scored against the v 7 for Ireland (who also had free tries Lowe playing who did much better with Stockdale). Then consider England conceded 2 tries that where later deemed to have been unfair and that Wales played nearly a whole game (and some) against 14 men the 11 let in by Wales compared to England becomes an issue.

If we are worried about Earls against big men then maybe other players shouldn't be going at all based on defensive work.

Happy for the stats to be challenged.

TJ wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Nah Earls is quality, can mix it with most players.

Earls totally outplayed his opposite number on Saturday

He is one of those really annoying players who appears to not have a huge amount of talent only to score some great try or do some other game turning act.  He is also one of the fastest around again without looking like it

Keith Earls skinned Johnny May on Saturday, on numerous occasions, and totally bamboozled him for his try.

Brendan wrote:Adams is Wales third best winger behind LRZ and LW.

Adams is the best winger Wales have.

Good grief, some of the things people say.

Brendan wrote:Adams is Wales third best winger behind LRZ and LW.

Earls has the best defence of any of the wingers which is why he can play centre very comfortably.

It's fine to have a winger like LRZ and others who scores lots but but let's others in just as easy.  Look ant James Lowe who is great going forward but not backwards.

Against SA being fast is pointless if you can't defend against bigger players otherwise you get the situation like Ireland where the fullback as to cover that side.

Stockdale has one of the best try scoring records and did better in his first 6N then LRZ

The facts behind the stats are interesting.

LRZ scored 4 tries.  Not like he broke records like Stockdale did in his breakout year. Two when teams where down to 14 men and couldn't score against France or England the two teams most like SA which says he has a phyisicallity problem. Against the SA back 3 I don't think he scores the second one v Scotland.
Adams score v England against 0 men
Watson finished on the same number of tries playing in a much weak team then LRZ.

England and Wales both had 11 tries scored against the v 7 for Ireland (who also had free tries Lowe playing who did much better with Stockdale).  Then consider England conceded 2 tries that where later deemed to have been unfair and that Wales played nearly a whole game (and some) against 14 men the 11 let in by Wales compared to England becomes an issue.

If we are worried about Earls against big men then maybe other players shouldn't be going at all based on defensive work.

Happy for the stats to be challenged.

When was Stockdales break out year? I'll assume it was 2018 when he scored 8 tries in the calendar year & he would have been 21? LRZ still has a possible breakout year to come & he is still only 20.

Stats are misleading. Given that Stockdales international ratio is 18 tries in 34 games & LRZ has 4 in 9 that puts him on similar returns if you work LRZ's up to the 34 games that Stockdale has played in, it gives him 15 tries. Club wise Stockdale has 29 tries in 75 appearances & LRZ has 15 in just 23.

The main difference with the way Wales are now operating is that Adams & LRZ are coming in & are genuine ball carriers & threats. Yes LRZ didn't score against France or England but he was busy & for the bounce of the ball he would have scored against England.

It doesn't matter if you score tries against 15 men or 13 men, a try is a try. I'm sure if Ireland beat New Zealand in the RWC 2023 final after the All Blacks has 2 men sent off, you wouldn't devalue the win now....

Darcy Graham? Called a beautiful try against Wales and is a live wire. I’d love to see him go up against Kolbe. His size might count against him but he offers something else compared with some of the other wingers. Agree with posts above about how good the competition is this time around.

Brendan wrote:Adams is Wales third best winger behind LRZ and LW.

Earls has the best defence of any of the wingers which is why he can play centre very comfortably.

It's fine to have a winger like LRZ and others who scores lots but but let's others in just as easy.  Look ant James Lowe who is great going forward but not backwards.

Against SA being fast is pointless if you can't defend against bigger players otherwise you get the situation like Ireland where the fullback as to cover that side.

Stockdale has one of the best try scoring records and did better in his first 6N then LRZ

The facts behind the stats are interesting.

LRZ scored 4 tries.  Not like he broke records like Stockdale did in his breakout year. Two when teams where down to 14 men and couldn't score against France or England the two teams most like SA which says he has a phyisicallity problem. Against the SA back 3 I don't think he scores the second one v Scotland.
Adams score v England against 0 men
Watson finished on the same number of tries playing in a much weak team then LRZ.

England and Wales both had 11 tries scored against the v 7 for Ireland (who also had free tries Lowe playing who did much better with Stockdale).  Then consider England conceded 2 tries that where later deemed to have been unfair and that Wales played nearly a whole game (and some) against 14 men the 11 let in by Wales compared to England becomes an issue.

If we are worried about Earls against big men then maybe other players shouldn't be going at all based on defensive work.

Happy for the stats to be challenged.

The first choice back 3 for Wales is LRZ and Adams on the wing, with Williams at 15; so Adams can't be third choice. All three of these guys should be on the plane.

Earls is an okay winger, but he's only there because Ireland aren't bringing in anyone better. You need Zebo back. I would probably have Earls as utility cover and only start him on the wing when nobody else is available - kind of like right now I guess. For years we told you that you need Beirne in your starting team, I think we know what we're talking about .

What's the measure to say Stockdale did better in his first 6N? Anyway he doesn't seem to be doing better than anyone right now. I think we can all honeslty say LRZ is one of the best in this hemisphere. If he were from NZ then he would be training with ABs squad because he has the playing style they go for. NZ comfortably have the best wingers in the world.

Against SA being fast is very important. Most of the wingers in their country are very small, but they consistently do well in the domestic competition. I didn't see anything in this 6N to suggest LRZ has a physicality problem. I seen a lot to suggest he has excellent finishing and a good all-round game. I think we also all agree that Watson is one of the best wingers available to the Lions.

Not that I doubt your stats, I'm just struggling to surmise how it fits in with anything you are trying to say. I don't see how you have arrived at those conclusions.

bsando wrote:Darcy Graham? Called a beautiful try against Wales and is a live wire. I’d love to see him go up against Kolbe. His size might count against him but he offers something else compared with some of the other wingers. Agree with posts above about how good the competition is this time around.

I think Graham should tour, but believe he would struggle to get into the test team.

mikey_dragon wrote:On the other hand, ex winger North scores a few tries against Ireland .

I have picked North in my Lions team.

LordDowlais wrote:

Brendan wrote:Adams is Wales third best winger behind LRZ and LW.

Adams is the best winger Wales have.

Good grief, some of the things people say.

Not sure people would agree with that. If the Lions have two Welsh wingers and Hogg is 15 I think most would pick Williams above Adams. Just because he normally plays 15 doesn't mean he is not the best winger.

Brendan wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Brendan wrote:Adams is Wales third best winger behind LRZ and LW.

Adams is the best winger Wales have.

Good grief, some of the things people say.

Not sure people would agree with that.  If the Lions have two Welsh wingers and Hogg is 15 I think most would pick Williams above Adams.  Just because he normally plays 15 doesn't mean he is not the best winger.

I do not want to get dragged in with this, but I can comfortably say that Josh Adams is a better winger than Liam Williams.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Brendan wrote:Adams is Wales third best winger behind LRZ and LW.

Earls has the best defence of any of the wingers which is why he can play centre very comfortably.

It's fine to have a winger like LRZ and others who scores lots but but let's others in just as easy.  Look ant James Lowe who is great going forward but not backwards.

Against SA being fast is pointless if you can't defend against bigger players otherwise you get the situation like Ireland where the fullback as to cover that side.

Stockdale has one of the best try scoring records and did better in his first 6N then LRZ

The facts behind the stats are interesting.

LRZ scored 4 tries.  Not like he broke records like Stockdale did in his breakout year. Two when teams where down to 14 men and couldn't score against France or England the two teams most like SA which says he has a phyisicallity problem. Against the SA back 3 I don't think he scores the second one v Scotland.
Adams score v England against 0 men
Watson finished on the same number of tries playing in a much weak team then LRZ.

England and Wales both had 11 tries scored against the v 7 for Ireland (who also had free tries Lowe playing who did much better with Stockdale).  Then consider England conceded 2 tries that where later deemed to have been unfair and that Wales played nearly a whole game (and some) against 14 men the 11 let in by Wales compared to England becomes an issue.

If we are worried about Earls against big men then maybe other players shouldn't be going at all based on defensive work.

Happy for the stats to be challenged.

The first choice back 3 for Wales is LRZ and Adams on the wing, with Williams at 15; so Adams can't be third choice. All three of these guys should be on the plane.

Earls is an okay winger, but he's only there because Ireland aren't bringing in anyone better. You need Zebo back. I would probably have Earls as utility cover and only start him on the wing when nobody else is available - kind of like right now I guess. For years we told you that you need Beirne in your starting team, I think we know what we're talking about .

What's the measure to say Stockdale did better in his first 6N? Anyway he doesn't seem to be doing better than anyone right now. I think we can all honeslty say LRZ is one of the best in this hemisphere. If he were from NZ then he would be training with ABs squad because he has the playing style they go for. NZ comfortably have the best wingers in the world.

Against SA being fast is very important. Most of the wingers in their country are very small, but they consistently do well in the domestic competition. I didn't see anything in this 6N to suggest LRZ has a physicality problem. I seen a lot to suggest he has excellent finishing and a good all-round game. I think we also all agree that Watson is one of the best wingers available to the Lions.

Not that I doubt your stats, I'm just struggling to surmise how it fits in with anything you are trying to say. I don't see how you have arrived at those conclusions.

Stockdale in his first 6Ns broke a record doing it in front of crowds in hostile away venues.  He also didn't only play NH teams with no crowds but also played against the ABs and Oz away.

My point and stats show that Earls is not a liability in defence the way that other wingers are.  Being a good tackler for a winger is alot different to being a good tackler.  Earle is good under the high ball both in attack and defence.  He is fast like the others and can run fine. Not sure other wingers has done as well under the high ball like the more tried and tested players

Not sure the same can be said of other wingers who are mainly identified as fast runners.

Not sure Adam's or LRZ or other wingers have constantly been strong against the top European and Domestic league teams in the same way Earls, Williams, Kolbe and other wingers have done.

Looking at Lions picks while we often like the Media look at the last few games I hope.

Look at Adams in the tries charts for the Pro14 compared to other wingers (though that might be a Blues thing). This year the top 10 try scores are Irish.
It might be injury related etc but he's not really a standout player. Happy to be proved wrong in the Rainbow Cup but if Gatland is watching Earls and VDM do well in it while Adams gets tanked by the SAs not sure he goes.

Playing down the league you need to stand out and not sure he will

LRZ has the potential to be a great player but is only good now and against the Boks would be found out which I think would be harmful for his development.  I think it is good he has May to learn from.

Anyway the debate is pointless as the starting back 3 will be Hogg, Williams and May unless injuries happen. As they are the best players overall by quiet a bit. Earls then offers more as a squad player due to plus he has beaten SA in SA and played for winning teams in SA.

LordDowlais wrote:

Brendan wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Brendan wrote:Adams is Wales third best winger behind LRZ and LW.

Adams is the best winger Wales have.

Good grief, some of the things people say.

Not sure people would agree with that.  If the Lions have two Welsh wingers and Hogg is 15 I think most would pick Williams above Adams.  Just because he normally plays 15 doesn't mean he is not the best winger.

I do not want to get dragged in with this, but I can comfortably say that Josh Adams is a better winger than Liam Williams.

Happy to leave it there too if that is your opinion.

Gatland in his years thought he was a good winger as did Sarries. So happy with my opinion too.

The idea that May would go above some of the other contenders is laughable. He has pace but that is all. High ball work not great, not much of a step.

Better wingers available - Darcy Graham , Duhan van der Merwe, Rees dammit, Adams, Earls. Loopy Liam, Stockdale at least.

Brendan wrote:Gatland in his years thought he was a good winger as did Sarries. So happy with my opinion too.

Gatland picked Liam Williams at wing years ago, as soon as Adams came on the scene, he was 1st choice, also, Adams did not play for Sarries, so how could he possibly be compared to what Sarries thought ?

If you want to talk about Liam Williams, then you need to compare him with Hogg, because they share the same positions, and that's what they are best at. Now that will be a debate that will go on for ever.

TJ wrote:The idea that May would go above some of the other contenders is laughable.  He has pace but that is all.  High ball work not great, not much of a step.

Better wingers available - Darcy Graham , Duhan van der Merwe, Rees dammit, Adams, Earls. Loopy Liam, Stockdale at least.

You really don't watch much of England.

TJ wrote:The idea that May would go above some of the other contenders is laughable.  He has pace but that is all.  High ball work not great, not much of a step.

Better wingers available - Darcy Graham , Duhan van der Merwe, Rees dammit, Adams, Earls. Loopy Liam, Stockdale at least.

High ball work not great? I must have been watching a different Jonny May. No Watson included in your list either hmmm.

LordDowlais wrote:

Brendan wrote:Gatland in his years thought he was a good winger as did Sarries. So happy with my opinion too.

Gatland picked Liam Williams at wing years ago, as soon as Adams came on the scene, he was 1st choice, also, Adams did not play for Sarries, so how could he possibly be compared to what Sarries thought ?

If you want to talk about Liam Williams, then you need to compare him with Hogg, because they share the same positions, and that's what they are best at. Now that will be a debate that will go on for ever.

Must not have been clear. At Sarries they saw him very much as a winger including big games like finals. If some of the best coaches feel He is good enough for wing in great teams where places are hard earned, he must be good. Not sure Adam's has had competition for his place in any team mainly due to backups being poor.

Adams very much is a winger and only a winger so if Gatland tries to do the bench like SA people who are only wingers wont be on the Bench especially as so many other backs can cover many positions.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

TJ wrote:The idea that May would go above some of the other contenders is laughable.  He has pace but that is all.  High ball work not great, not much of a step.

Better wingers available - Darcy Graham , Duhan van der Merwe, Rees dammit, Adams, Earls. Loopy Liam, Stockdale at least.

You really don't watch much of England.

No one is better than him at what he does and no other winger can score tries from nothing like him.

Yes He might have some issues but no more than anyone else.

England won the 6 nations and ANC because of him so I agree with 7.5 if you watch England it's hard not to see him doing very good things

Brendan wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Brendan wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Brendan wrote:Adams is Wales third best winger behind LRZ and LW.

:laugh:

Adams is the best winger Wales have.

Good grief, some of the things people say. :laugh:

Not sure people would agree with that.  If the Lions have two Welsh wingers and Hogg is 15 I think most would pick Williams above Adams.  Just because he normally plays 15 doesn't mean he is not the best winger.

I do not want to get dragged in with this, but I can comfortably say that Josh Adams is a better winger than Liam Williams.

Happy to leave it there too if that is your opinion.

Gatland in his years thought he was a good winger as did Sarries. So happy with my opinion too.

Gatland used Williams mostly as a winger because we were a bit short on options there when he came into the squad. Prior to Williams being called up to the Wales squad, Gatland had moved Halfpenny from wing to fullback, because we were short on options at fullback. Halfpenny did very well there, and suited the Gatland gameplan a bit more than Williams did (or was more willing to play to his instructions - i.e. kick it back as the first option, rather than Williams' look to run it back as first option).

When Halfpenny was first moved from wing to fullback, he still offered a decent counter-attacking threat when he did run it back, but this seemed to tail off over the years - a number of us Welsh fans wanted to see Williams utilised more at fullback than wing, but Halfpenny became 'undroppable' because of his boot & goal-kicking ability, as much as being suited to Gatland's gameplan. But Williams' ability with ball in hand meant he couldn't be left out of the squad - hence being slotted in to wing.

Williams has great versatility, and can play both fullback & wing to a very high standard, but personally, I have always favoured him as a fullback over a wing. With Adams & Rees-Zammit both being in great form as wingers, that has allowed Williams to move back to fullback.

I think Williams may have lost a little bit of pace over the last couple of years, but is still a great player. He could still play wing to a high standard if required, but might be just that yard or two off the pace compared to the top wings.

Though, I'm quite happy with that, as I always saw Williams as the better fullback anyway.

Adams and Rees-Zammit definitely have the wing positions nailed on for Wales at the moment - there's no denying Adams' finishing ability is superb, and his defensive & all round play is solid too. This has to make all three of them contenders for Lions' places.

I think I'd have Williams over Hogg as the starting 15 for the Lions - just because I think he has that little bit more unpredictability/ ability to create something from nothing in attack - though I'm willing to concede that might just be my Welsh bias.

Brendan wrote:

Not sure Adam's or LRZ or other wingers have constantly been strong against the top European and Domestic league teams in the same way Earls, Williams, Kolbe and other wingers have done.

Adams had 34 tries in 59 appearances for Worcester as well as 8 in 17 for the Blues & LRZ as mentioned 15 in 23 (also becoming the first 18 year old to score a hat trick in the Premiership). Think we can safely say that the Premiership is a top league with top domestic sides....

Yeah I'm still not sure.

Soul Requiem wrote:

TJ wrote:The idea that May would go above some of the other contenders is laughable.  He has pace but that is all.  High ball work not great, not much of a step.

Better wingers available - Darcy Graham , Duhan van der Merwe, Rees dammit, Adams, Earls. Loopy Liam, Stockdale at least.

High ball work not great? I must have been watching a different Jonny May. No Watson included in your list either hmmm.

"at least"  - Watson is a contender  there are others as well.

Merely trying to point out that there are much better options than may - more versatile and quicker :-)  LRZ outpaced him and Duhan is quicker than either

Selection will depend on what qualities you want. Want a steady make no mistakes provider? maitland is your man. Want a blistering finisher? Darcy or LRZ. Want a big strong guy with blistering pace? duhan, want a tricky mazy runner - adams or graham etc etc

all the candidates have different strengths and weaknesses and wing is a position with loads of top quality choices half of which I will not have mentioned.

TJ wrote:LRZ outpaced him and Duhan is quicker than either

Duhan is nowhere near quicker that LRZ, not in a million years, in fact, I do not think there are many quicker in world rugby than LRZ.

Nonsense - Duhan is outrageously fast. Duhan is a bit of an oil tanker turning but up to speed - very few can catch him.

We will have to agree to disagree.

TJ wrote: Nonsense - Duhan is outrageously fast.  Duhan is a bit of an oil tanker turning but up to speed - very few can catch him.

But getting up to speed is half the battle. LRZ is stupidly quick off the mark, by the time Duhan would be at his top speed, LRZ would have scored the try.

Yeah we've already seen that LRZ is quicker and VDM and May. I guess some individuals didn't watch it.

TJ wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

TJ wrote:The idea that May would go above some of the other contenders is laughable.  He has pace but that is all.  High ball work not great, not much of a step.

Better wingers available - Darcy Graham , Duhan van der Merwe, Rees dammit, Adams, Earls. Loopy Liam, Stockdale at least.

High ball work not great? I must have been watching a different Jonny May. No Watson included in your list either hmmm.

"at least"  - Watson is a contender  there are others as well.

Merely trying to point out that there are much better options than may - more versatile and quicker :-)  LRZ outpaced him and Duhan is quicker than either

Selection will depend on what qualities you want.  Want a steady make no mistakes provider?  maitland is your man.  Want a blistering finisher?  Darcy or LRZ.  Want a big strong guy with blistering pace?  duhan, want a tricky mazy runner - adams or graham etc etc

all the candidates have different strengths and weaknesses and wing is a position with loads of top quality choices half of which I will not have mentioned.

I love watching Darcy ball in hand but his defensive game is way below the mark. I've been watching him live with Edinburgh since he broke through and it's always been the case. Perhaps the Japan game in the RWC being the starkest example. With Kenki Fukuoka working off his wing and the Japanese phase play isolating defenders out wide Darcy was all at sea.

He's terrific fun to watch at times but there's a reason that with Duhan available Maitland has started ahead of him for Scotland despite the latter having lost a lot of pace these days.

Jonny May has scored 29 of his 33 international teams against tier 1 nations (i've not included the two he's scored against Italy), I wonder how the other available wingers compare?

I actually think that's more than them all.

mikey_dragon wrote:Yeah we've already seen that LRZ is quicker and VDM and May. I guess some individuals didn't watch it.

comparing one player at full speed vs another defending from a standing start is a ridiculous comparison

Soul Requiem wrote:Jonny May has scored 29 of his 33 international teams against tier 1 nations (i've not included the two he's scored against Italy), I wonder how the other available wingers compare?

I actually think that's more than them all.

Id imagine so.

alive555 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Yeah we've already seen that LRZ is quicker and VDM and May. I guess some individuals didn't watch it.

comparing one player at full speed vs another defending from a standing start is a ridiculous comparison

True however he was still much faster than May.

Can anyone else recall "speed isn't the be all and end all" type discussions around winger selection in the lead up to the last Lions tour?

Oakdene wrote:

alive555 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Yeah we've already seen that LRZ is quicker and VDM and May. I guess some individuals didn't watch it.

comparing one player at full speed vs another defending from a standing start is a ridiculous comparison

True however he was still much faster than May.

Faster than May and VDM.

BamBam wrote:Can anyone else recall "speed isn't the be all and end all" type discussions around winger selection in the lead up to the last Lions tour?

No. Do you?