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England - Summer Tour

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Post by GeordieFalcon Thu 25 Mar 2021, 3:25 pm

First topic message reminder :

After an "interesting" 6n...and with the Lions tour possibly going ahead, England have a chance to send a young Saxons side full of talent on the Summer tour to USA and Canada (if Covid permits)

They have 4 games pencilled in...

12th June; England v Barbarians (Suggestions it wont go ahead)

10th July; Scotland v England
17th July; USA v England
24th July; Canada v England

So looking to the future and the AI's who would you take on the tour? Assuming its 32/33 squad size.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 03 Aug 2021, 10:17 am

king_carlos wrote:Worth remembering that the new player welfare agreement means that England's Lions players have to be rested for 1 week each during the Autumn Internationals.

So Mako, George, LCD, Sinckler, Itoje, Hill, Lawes, Curry, Simmonds, Farrell, Smith, Daly and Watson will all need resting at some point over the AIs. That will open up opportunities for other players.

Opening game Vs Tonga will be used as an experimental game at a guess. Could see Smith and Randall given some more minutes in that one. We'd need a fourth hooker in the squad to cover that game but you'd assume Dunn would be back in the squad post suspension and Blamire definitely looks like a young man that would fit in nicely with our first choice options George and LCD.

Australia and SA will see the return of the bigger names you'd assume.

I sort of agree with Carlos on Farrell. He's not a great inside centre but we have no better option. The issue really is the lack of balance in the midfield and has been said we can't rely on the Manu centre sticking plaster. I also don't understand the mentality of ditch the entire loads of experience in the midfield to rebuild entirely around a talented young man who's not played a meaningful game at international level. That just isn't going to happen. We've got to bring through a more rounded back three and a direct 13. If we can introduce Nowell or Cockasiga to the back three that ability to work  off the shoulder could be very useful. Hopefully Marchant at 13 sees more game time.

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Post by Mr Bounce Tue 03 Aug 2021, 10:30 am

This is why I think not having Odogwu in the summer squad hurt us. Eddie clearly wants a power runner in the midfield and the longer he plays Farrell there the less set up we are to do that. Slade isn't the answer at 13 (at least not outside Farrell!) and I agree that having a speed merchant/slippery customer like Marchant would do us no end of favours. The amount of times he can slip tackles and turn on the gas is a real asset to have.

I am also not a fan of removing vast chunks of the team, but there are aspects that need looking at. 9, 10, Midfield, 8, Front Row back ups and Fullback are certainly potentials on the cards - probably not all at once though!

None of the second rows tried in the summer should trouble the squad again mind you. And Ludlow shouldn't either.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 03 Aug 2021, 11:28 am

Whats is the current Status of Odogwu...when is he likely to be back playing?

I think Cokasaniga is a big one for Jones. He clearly wants him in his squad...and probably the team.

He played well in the summer games but dare i say still lacked that bit of explosion. But  he should get a good pre season and some games under his belt will do him the world of good in that respect. Having him back back in full form and fitness...is a massive bonus.
He is a player who can then crash in the middle and make ground.

Against Tonga maybe a backline of...

9 Randall
10 Ford
11 Cockasaniga
12 Slade
13 Marchant / Lawrence
14 May / Radwan
15 Malins (Steward off the bench)

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Aug 2021, 12:31 pm

Why pick Slade in a position he nevers plays while we already know he's a stop gap.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 03 Aug 2021, 1:29 pm

Why?

Because Jones will want Slade involved...and Farrell will no doubt be rested for this game so he can play the other games if that is the protocol.

If he picks Marchant, then he is a 13, so Slade will cover 12...
Maybe he will ignore Marchant, and then If he goes with Lawrence, then maybe Lawrence at 12 and Slade at 13.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Aug 2021, 6:59 pm

Quite possible that Jones will try to shoehorn in favourites but is Slade one of those? Seems he's actively searching on how to liven up those backs and Salde has been OK but northing special; certainly not bringing any sort of passing game to internationals or much running.

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Post by doctor_grey Wed 04 Aug 2021, 12:43 am

Not sure but it has seemed to me that Slade is a Jones fave.  Just maybe not an ultra fave, man-crush type like Farrell, Billy Cheeseburger, and so on.  

Regardless, I would like to see Lawrence get a few runs at 12, but with the proviso that he is actually included as part of the attack strategy and not out there to model the next England kit.  Smith at 10, Marchant at 13 (not saying he is a Grey fave, but let's give him a go), but who is at 9 to tee it all up?  Slow ball will kill that back line.

The time to test these young uns was this past season, but that opportunity was lost. As with the Elvis song "It's now or never".

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 04 Aug 2021, 7:58 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Quite possible that Jones will try to shoehorn in favourites but is Slade one of those? Seems he's actively searching on how to liven up those backs and Salde has been OK but northing special; certainly not bringing any sort of passing game to internationals or much running.

Possibly not, but until one of the young pretenders like Marchant, Lawrence, Odogwu or whoever puts in the performance Jones wants, then expect to continue to see Slade...especially against Tonga, when the likes of Farrell will not be in contention due to the protocols...

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 04 Aug 2021, 7:45 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why pick Slade in a position he nevers plays while we already know he's a stop gap.

Because we are genuinely lacking inside centres? Lawrence doesn't really play there either but could be shoehorned in like Manu has been previously. Manu is actually playing 12 for Sale these days though he might be injured again by the Autumn. Unless we call up Ollie Devoto but I can't see it if we're already likely to have Farrell, Ford and Smith in the squad. 

I'm not sure what point starting Ford against Tonga would be either, especially if Slade is in the backline as well. It's a game readymade for Smith to take another step up in terms of international competition. It's more a test that USA/Canada but not to a level where we are dropping him in the deep end to see if he can swim or not.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 04 Aug 2021, 7:59 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Why pick Slade in a position he nevers plays while we already know he's a stop gap.

Because we are genuinely lacking inside centres? Lawrence doesn't really play there either but could be shoehorned in like Manu has been previously. Manu is actually playing 12 for Sale these days though he might be injured again by the Autumn. Unless we call up Ollie Devoto but I can't see it if we're already likely to have Farrell, Ford and Smith in the squad. 

I'm not sure what point starting Ford against Tonga would be either, especially if Slade is in the backline as well. It's a game readymade for Smith to take another step up in terms of international competition. It's more a test that USA/Canada but not to a level where we are dropping him in the deep end to see if he can swim or not.

Slade isn't the answer there currently and he's not going to be a longer term option though. I cansee the benefit of staring Smith against the better teams though if he is limited to 2 games.

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Post by doctor_grey Thu 05 Aug 2021, 1:39 am

Somehow I get the feeling the current England team is starting to give off the same vibe as the post 2003 RWC team did with players kept in the squad a year or so too long.  Yes, the 2007 team did make the RWC final, but we know that was an aging team past its best.  If Eddie Jones keeps the same of the older core, outside of a few key players, I can't see the team really challenging in two years.  Not sure how many, if any, of the Summer Tour players will even stick in the squad.  Running out teams against USA and Canada is not the same as playing Argentina during the last Lions tour.  I guess time will tell.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Thu 05 Aug 2021, 11:24 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Why pick Slade in a position he nevers plays while we already know he's a stop gap.

Because we are genuinely lacking inside centres? Lawrence doesn't really play there either but could be shoehorned in like Manu has been previously. Manu is actually playing 12 for Sale these days though he might be injured again by the Autumn. Unless we call up Ollie Devoto but I can't see it if we're already likely to have Farrell, Ford and Smith in the squad. 

I'm not sure what point starting Ford against Tonga would be either, especially if Slade is in the backline as well. It's a game readymade for Smith to take another step up in terms of international competition. It's more a test that USA/Canada but not to a level where we are dropping him in the deep end to see if he can swim or not.

Slade isn't the answer there currently and he's not going to be a longer term option though. I can see the benefit of staring Smith against the better teams though if he is limited to 2 games.

No hes not...but who is? Farrell has been shoehorned there due to no other options...and its STILL the case. So even against Tonga...do you play Lawrence out of position at 12...or bring Devoto in...we cant rely on Manu (who himself is a 13) and there are no others.

I just cant see Jones not selecting Slade.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 05 Aug 2021, 1:05 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Why pick Slade in a position he nevers plays while we already know he's a stop gap.

Because we are genuinely lacking inside centres? Lawrence doesn't really play there either but could be shoehorned in like Manu has been previously. Manu is actually playing 12 for Sale these days though he might be injured again by the Autumn. Unless we call up Ollie Devoto but I can't see it if we're already likely to have Farrell, Ford and Smith in the squad. 

I'm not sure what point starting Ford against Tonga would be either, especially if Slade is in the backline as well. It's a game readymade for Smith to take another step up in terms of international competition. It's more a test that USA/Canada but not to a level where we are dropping him in the deep end to see if he can swim or not.

Slade isn't the answer there currently and he's not going to be a longer term option though. I cansee the benefit of staring Smith against the better teams though if he is limited to 2 games.

I don't see the benefit of throwing Smith out against the best sides in an England team he doesn't know and that plays nothing like his Quins team. I'm very cautious of the toxic media in this country that will cut the young lad to bits after hyping him up as the NH Dan Carter in recent months if he has an off game. I'd rather see him cut loose against Tonga and then get a good 30 mins Vs Australia before avoiding entirely what is likely to be the attritional affair Vs SA.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 05 Aug 2021, 1:44 pm

Midfield immediately over these games geordie I'd want to see plenty of Lawrence and marchant.

Sam I think Smith is ready now. I'd give him a run of games leading into the 6 nations.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 05 Aug 2021, 2:09 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Midfield immediately over these games geordie I'd want to see plenty of Lawrence and marchant.

Sam I think Smith is ready now. I'd give him a run of games leading into the 6 nations.

Remember he has a 10 weeks break after the Lions finishes so will miss the start of the season for Quins. He'll have missed pre season at Quins as well so I have doubts over how much form he'll have. Ford on the other hand will have had his first summer off in years so should be fresh and hopefully in form. Lends towards a develop the young man and let Ford take the pressure approach nicely. 6N is a long way off, hard to guestimate form for the Autumn, impossible for the 6N at this point but throwing Smith to the wolves to see if he can do the job in the Autumn is make or break for him and the 6N this season which is unnecessary in my view. Plenty of opportunity to bring him through and settle him in so he's got the best chance to be the long term option. It's not like we lack a short term option.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 05 Aug 2021, 2:19 pm

I get that and if I saw Smith as potential alone I'd be happy for him to be slotted in. As it is I think he's the guy demanding now to be picked.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 05 Aug 2021, 2:31 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I get that and if I saw Smith as potential alone I'd be happy for him to be slotted in. As it is I think he's the guy demanding now to be picked.

I'm open to changing my mind once the new season is under way. If Smith comes back in and starts pulling up trees whilst Ford is off the pace then I'd quickly re-access.

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Post by lostinwales Thu 05 Aug 2021, 2:45 pm

I tend to think of it like this.

Is Smith a better option than a Ford/Farrell combo on best form?
In all honesty no but hes got potential

Would we be in a better place at the next RWC with Smith as our main FH and playmaker?
I'd like to think so and we do have to think about succession.

If Smith is the way forward then I'd rather start building a team about him sooner rather than later so it has time to develop. Its all about where we are in a couple of years time as opposed to now.

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Post by Poorfour Thu 05 Aug 2021, 3:55 pm

For me, it all depends on whether Eddie is ready to move to a new attacking philosophy ahead of the RWC. In the past, he has tended to play one style until it’s been found out, then pivot to another - and I don’t think he’s afraid to drop even well-performing players if they don’t fit the template he wants.

If Eddie is ready to make the shift and he’s prepared to put Smith in the middle as the man to execute it, then Smith needs to play. There are 24-25 games of international rugby left before RWC 2023 and if you’re going to put a new fly half in then he will need most of those games to get fully established at international level.

If Eddie is going to stick with his current attack, or a variant of it, then there’s little point in putting Smith in. I think his ability to execute a plan is on a par with Ford - though we haven’t yet seen it tested at the highest level - but if he’s not going to be given the freedom to use some of the other options at his disposal then Ford will deliver just as well and is still close to his peak.
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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 05 Aug 2021, 6:22 pm

Poorfour wrote:For me, it all depends on whether Eddie is ready to move to a new attacking philosophy ahead of the RWC. In the past, he has tended to play one style until it’s been found out, then pivot to another - and I don’t think he’s afraid to drop even well-performing players if they don’t fit the template he wants.

If Eddie is ready to make the shift and he’s prepared to put Smith in the middle as the man to execute it, then Smith needs to play. There are 24-25 games of international rugby left before RWC 2023 and if you’re going to put a new fly half in then he will need most of those games to get fully established at international level.

If Eddie is going to stick with his current attack, or a variant of it, then there’s little point in putting Smith in. I think his ability to execute a plan is on a par with Ford - though we haven’t yet seen it tested at the highest level - but if he’s not going to be given the freedom to use some of the other options at his disposal then Ford will deliver just as well and is still close to his peak.

Really? That's the big question for me. We know Ford can play attacking, tactical, defensive the entire range pretty much. He might not have reached the highest of heights but he is the most versatile flyhalf we've had in many years, probably since Wilko. He's had plenty of practice steering beaten teams into passable positions having almost single handedly kept Tigers from relegation.

Smith has yet to demonstrate the ability to play cagey rugby. It's just not how Quins play and Danny Care frankly refuses to in the Prem and take Smith along with him. Even when Gustard was trying to change things the Quins backline often cut loose instead of playing percentages. The Prem final was end to end and Quins won because their intensity led Exeter into engaging in a ding dong battle that suited Quins down to the ground. I honestly have no idea how Smith would react if under pressure with a team not going forward and his options revolving around his ability to play territory. He's got all the skills bit that's not the same.

It's also worth noting that Ford is still only 28 so succession planning is a touch premature. It's not like he's going to be heading past his best or retiring between now and the next RWC. For me it's about making it a competition for the shirt and forcing both plays to fight tooth and nail for it.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 05 Aug 2021, 7:22 pm

There were a few cases this year where Smith just kept trams back in their 22. I agree about having them fight it out. And the fair way to do that is reward the guy with the shirt and in the best form.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 05 Aug 2021, 10:31 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:There were a few cases this year where Smith just kept trams back in their 22. I agree about having them fight it out. And the fair way to do that is reward the guy with the shirt and in the best form.

Yeah except Ford played Smith off the pitch at WR. Whilst Smith was excellent last season the gap between him and others wasn't insurmountable. Give them half each unless the form of one or the other merits a change of idea when the Prem resumes. That'll be quite tough for Smith though as I've said he's got the Lions rest period and has missed the start of pre season under a new head coach. I'm open to one man running away with it but the idea Smith will be miles ahead when he steps back on the pitch I'm going to doubt. Hasn't tended to happen with other Lions returnees, takes them a few games to get back into their stride.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Fri 06 Aug 2021, 5:07 am

Smith has been the best FH in the prem by some distance. I don't agree that he just plays this all out attack game tbh....he has the full package.

Playing behind a Quins pack which is hardly Sarries or Exeter standard gives him even more credit imo.

I like Ford a lot, but it's time to give Smith a run, he's ready. He's better than 20/30mins off the bench, he needs 8-10 starts to settle in.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 06 Aug 2021, 7:07 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:There were a few cases this year where Smith just kept trams back in their 22. I agree about having them fight it out. And the fair way to do that is reward the guy with the shirt and in the best form.

Yeah except Ford played Smith off the pitch at WR. Whilst Smith was excellent last season the gap between him and others wasn't insurmountable. Give them half each unless the form of one or the other merits a change of idea when the Prem resumes. That'll be quite tough for Smith though as I've said he's got the Lions rest period and has missed the start of pre season under a new head coach. I'm open to one man running away with it but the idea Smith will be miles ahead when he steps back on the pitch I'm going to doubt. Hasn't tended to happen with other Lions returnees, takes them a few games to get back into their stride.

I heard the same thing several times about Alex Goode outplayed Ford in a game. I can't remember the specific game you refer to but I do know that Smith was better over the season as a whole. I watched Hamilton Ricard torture Sol Cambell once, I still have no doubt who the better footballer overall was.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 06 Aug 2021, 7:10 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Smith has been the best FH in the prem by some distance. I don't agree that he just plays this all out attack game tbh....he has the full package.

Playing behind a Quins pack which is hardly Sarries or Exeter standard gives him even more credit imo.

I like Ford a lot, but it's time to give Smith a run, he's ready. He's better than 20/30mins off the bench, he needs 8-10 starts to settle in.

Yup. Completely agree. I do acknowledge Sam's point on the use and abuse role of some of the media but I've always been a fan of backing a player. There are a small handful of guys of hit the ground running or look completely out of their depth, the rest need a run of games. I think after the autumn series if Smith has 2 games and has played 60 mins in each there will be very few people wanting Ford to start the 6ns.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 06 Aug 2021, 8:03 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:There were a few cases this year where Smith just kept trams back in their 22. I agree about having them fight it out. And the fair way to do that is reward the guy with the shirt and in the best form.

Yeah except Ford played Smith off the pitch at WR. Whilst Smith was excellent last season the gap between him and others wasn't insurmountable. Give them half each unless the form of one or the other merits a change of idea when the Prem resumes. That'll be quite tough for Smith though as I've said he's got the Lions rest period and has missed the start of pre season under a new head coach. I'm open to one man running away with it but the idea Smith will be miles ahead when he steps back on the pitch I'm going to doubt. Hasn't tended to happen with other Lions returnees, takes them a few games to get back into their stride.

I heard the same thing several times about Alex Goode outplayed Ford in a game. I can't remember the specific game you refer to but I do know that Smith was better over the season as a whole. I watched Hamilton Ricard torture Sol Cambell once, I still have no doubt who the better footballer overall was.

Was just pointing out he wasn't on a different level as opposed to one was better than the other. The rhetoric I see in the media is that he is the Lions saviour in waiting and the English incarnation of Carlos Spencer. The hype has gone beyond his excellence and he was excellent last season. So far the suggestions on this thread is to bin the entire backline and rebuild it around a 22 year old who's never played a meaningful international. This includes ditching more than 170 caps at 10 and 12 including the national team captain. A measure of realism is required. Easing in for the AIs before a tilt at the 6N starting jersey is for me the logical way forward especially given his mandatory rest period. 

As I've repeatedly said form depending.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 06 Aug 2021, 8:09 am

Woah don't forget ditching the scrum half. That's the key for me. Personally I'd keep Farrell at 12 longer term.

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Post by BamBam Fri 06 Aug 2021, 8:24 am

I'd go with Youngs, Smith and Farrell as the primary set up for the AIs. Give him the same structure Ford has played well in previously and see how it goes, I don't think there's a young scrum half or 12 demanding selection in the same way as Smith is, and I'm not a fan of changing everything at once

Hopefully by the 6N, Smith would have shown enough and there will be a younger 9/12 demanding to be picked alongside him - and we'll have the confidence in Smith to be less worried about starting 2 youngsters in the half backs

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Post by BamBam Fri 06 Aug 2021, 8:39 am

https://twitter.com/jackswillis7/status/1423382777223958538?s=12

Great to see

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Post by MichaelT Fri 06 Aug 2021, 8:55 am

Changing the half-backs isn't going to really solve anything if our pack isn't working. Having George and Sinckler back in form, if Vunipola (M) can bring his first test form to it, if Lawes, Launchbury and Underhill are fit and then the bigger if - Billy Vunipola. How is he going to be with a full pre-season? Having that lot back to some degree of top ability will be a big improvement on the Six Nations. Lots of ifs though. Joe Marler - if he plays for England again depends on Covid restrictions I suppose.

Great to see J Willis there, hopefully back for some part of the season. Maybe not an England shirt, but great to see.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 06 Aug 2021, 9:16 am

BamBam wrote:I'd go with Youngs, Smith and Farrell as the primary set up for the AIs. Give him the same structure Ford has played well in previously and see how it goes, I don't think there's a young scrum half or 12 demanding selection in the same way as Smith is, and I'm not a fan of changing everything at once

Hopefully by the 6N, Smith would have shown enough and there will be a younger 9/12 demanding to be picked alongside him - and we'll have the confidence in Smith to be less worried about starting 2 youngsters in the half backs

Yeah be great to see a running flyhalf dropped into a backline with no direct runners. Do wonders for the opposition openside's highlights reel as Smith gets hammered repeatedly playing close to the line waiting in desperation for Farrell or Slade to run a line for him. A back three that only works on kick chase and when you create an overlap will make things better obviously.

On the up side a scrum half that can dictate tempo and not just try and play 7s in the Prem might well help him.

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Post by BamBam Fri 06 Aug 2021, 9:26 am

Slade wouldn't be in my team, I'd expect my runner there. Not sure putting Smith in with no second playmaker / kicking option makes the most sense either

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 06 Aug 2021, 10:12 am

So what would peoples midfield look like for Tonga, and then the two big boys...?

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Post by king_carlos Fri 06 Aug 2021, 10:35 am

9.Randall 10.Smith 11.May 12.Farrell 13.Marchant 14.Watson 15.Nowell

21.Youngs 22.Ford 23.Daly

That's what I'd be looking at. Then playing with a more similar style to '16 and '17 when JJ was at 13.

I'd also have Mitchell, Lawrence, Odogwu, Radwan, Cokanasiga and Steward in the training squad so they can be looked at when we rotate.

I wouldn't mind them looking at one of the U20s scrum-halves in Jack van Poortvliet and Raffi Quirke as an apprentice player as well.

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Post by lostinwales Fri 06 Aug 2021, 10:45 am

I just don't want to see Smith being blamed after a poor performance when being put into a team that doesn't suit him playing to a game plan that doesn't suit him either.

No.8. We have to ditch Billy for now. If he gets back to his best form then we can reconsider. I do hope Dombrandt gets more of a chance. Maybe Simmonds too.

I feel similarly about Farrell. He has obviously been very important for England but again might benefit from some time on the sidelines.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 06 Aug 2021, 11:43 am

lostinwales wrote:I just don't want to see Smith being blamed after a poor performance when being put into a team that doesn't suit him playing to a game plan that doesn't suit him either.

Exactly. SA are likely to give us a beating up front. Knowing Eddie it'll be the unbalanced backline as well. The media will sharpen their knives and point the finger if Smith is at the helm.

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Post by king_carlos Fri 06 Aug 2021, 12:39 pm

Playing at international level means playing in sides and with game plans that times won't exactly suit a player though. Farrell did that in '16 and '17 at 12 and his game developed massively as a consequence. Ford has done that when Jones moved to a more controlled game plan which has forced Ford to develop his kicking and game management a lot. It's part of international rugby.

It's not the same as club level where you can build a side around a player. At Quins for instance they identified that playing a very quick paced game required a crash ball carrier in the centre so they signed Esterhuizen. Whilst Esterhuizen is a very good 12 there's an argument that Quins payed way above the odds for him due to fitting their plan perfectly. England can't do that. They can't put £400k of salary cap aside for a 12 most sides would pay closer to £200k for just because they fill a gap. International sides have need to play with the options they've got which will be effected massively by injuries. They can't just use an injury dispensation signing to cover Manu for instance.

I absolutely love the rugby that Quins play and I really rate Smith but to be an international rugby player he will need to adapt his game as all players do.

Dan Carter when breaking through with the Crusaders kicked from hand relatively little. When he was the best 10 in rugby, orchestrating the best rugby team I've seen in the pro era, NZ kicked from hand more than any other side in the game.

Dupont is a phenomenal talent and the best scrum-half in rugby for my money but when playing off 9 isn't working France will pivot and play more of Ntamack or Jalibert at 10 which at times requires Dupont to do a Peter Stringer impression by just feeding his 10. If the situation requires Dupont does that well.

Players adapting their games to different teammates, systems and opposition is integral to being a successful international rugby player.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 06 Aug 2021, 2:36 pm

New Attack Coach....

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/article/gleeson-appointed-england-attack-coach

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 06 Aug 2021, 2:48 pm

I like that. It's never worked with Jones leading the attack and Wasps tend to be one of the best attacking sides around. Positive move.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 06 Aug 2021, 2:59 pm

Yeah thats my first thoughts Sam. When Wasps are in the mood they play some cracking stuff...

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 06 Aug 2021, 5:24 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah thats my first thoughts Sam. When Wasps are in the mood they play some cracking stuff...

It's good how when you see a post you approve of you assume it's me even when it isn't.

It is a good acquisition for the England coaching staff. Wasps have played some quality stuff and we already play with a good tempo we just need to be a little less obvious so that opposition defences are stretched further.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 07 Aug 2021, 10:54 am

Laugh silly me.

It's rare I agree with 7.5 ...so naturally must have assumed its you.

Anyway for once I do agree with him...

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Post by lostinwales Sun 08 Aug 2021, 12:13 pm

So if I understand correctly players on the Lions tour require more time off before getting back to playing. So Smith went out to SA played one game then sat out in the sun, and because of this will miss parts of the AI's?

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 08 Aug 2021, 2:37 pm

lostinwales wrote:So if I understand correctly players on the Lions tour require more time off before getting back to playing. So Smith went out to SA played one game then sat out in the sun, and because of this will miss parts of the AI's?

There's a mandatory rest period agreed for the English contingent (5 weeks rest and then 5 weeks training but no games?). Part of this is born by the clubs and England have agreed to only use them for two of the three AIs. Supposed to help the players with managed game time after the long season and then busy summer. Smith is a young man who's now been playing and training for more than 12 months makes sense that the RFU are looking to ensure he gets proper rest time.

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Post by MichaelT Sun 08 Aug 2021, 5:05 pm

The last Lions tour the English players were off the pace in the season that followed. The other nations test players were either injured (Warburton, Faletau, O'Brien) or then you had the Irish players who due to their player management policy, that was hugely praised at the time, played very little except for the 'big' games.

Its great if theres more consideration this time round. The European games not starting until December will also help.

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Post by Poorfour Sun 08 Aug 2021, 5:40 pm

Traditionally, France win le Grand Chelem the season after a Lions tour. Looks like a good bet this year as well.
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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 09 Aug 2021, 9:03 am

Our 6n team could be quite different..

I suspect we'll see some changes in the AI's...Jones will have his sight on the run in to the WC now.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 09 Aug 2021, 9:25 am

So many questions....

1. Will Dombrandt start at 8
2. Do Underhill and Curry have enough bulk and size..? Will Ted Hill come through or will he move to Lock as rumoured...
3. Is Johnny Hill able to play at this level like he does for Exeter?
4. Where are our young locks...will Isiekwe finally come good, or will Martins move to lock..will the Kpoku's come through?
5. Will Genge finally perform for England as he does for Tigers...?
6. Farrell.....and Englands midfield in general
7. Englands Full back....Malins v Steward
8. Will Baerbary move to hooker?
9. Will Ford be refreshed and at his best
10. Will Eddie Jones tactics help or hinder the England side.

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Post by lostinwales Mon 09 Aug 2021, 11:06 am


My take
GeordieFalcon wrote:So many questions....

1. Will Dombrandt start at 8
2. Do Underhill and Curry have enough bulk and size..?
3. Is Johnny Hill able to play at this level like he does for Exeter?
4. Where are our young locks...will Isiekwe finally come good, or will Martins move to lock..
5. Will Genge finally perform for England as he does for Tigers...?
6. Farrell.....and Englands midfield in general
7. Englands Full back....Malins v Steward
8. Will Baerbary move to hooker?
9. Will Ford be refreshed and at his best
10. Will Eddie Jones tactics help or hinder the England side.

1. Yes. A bigger question may be how long a run he'll get.
2. I don't think it matters unless we try Simmonds at 8. Curry is still getting bigger, and Underhill never seems to lack power.
3. Who knows. He's not an early developer like Itoje but then who is?
4. Isiekwe just seems on the outside and I doubt he'll get a look in. Martins does seem to be the next big hope. Will Kpoku show up well now Saracens are back in the premiership?
5. I think our expectations of him at international level will always be ahead of performance, but I do think his emergence as a genuine leader will keep him in the squad for decent run. On the other hand we never know where Marler's head is at and Mako has a lot of miles on the clock even if we bear in mind he is a lot younger than he looks, so the competition is not all it could be.
6. Farrell... Personally I'd like him to step back. If he gets best form back then he offers a great deal but he doesn't inspire the confidence he used to. Other places are up for grabs. Marchant should be ahead of the pack at 13, but Odogwu deserves a chance. Not yet convinced by Lawrence but he's young.
7. It's a nice situation to be in.
8. No idea. I think he will. I suspect it will take a while for him to break into the England team, but will be good to see him in the mix for the next RWC.
9. Yes but it may not be enough.
10. Both.....

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 09 Aug 2021, 11:47 am

lostinwales wrote:
My take
GeordieFalcon wrote:So many questions....

1. Will Dombrandt start at 8
2. Do Underhill and Curry have enough bulk and size..?
3. Is Johnny Hill able to play at this level like he does for Exeter?
4. Where are our young locks...will Isiekwe finally come good, or will Martins move to lock..
5. Will Genge finally perform for England as he does for Tigers...?
6. Farrell.....and Englands midfield in general
7. Englands Full back....Malins v Steward
8. Will Baerbary move to hooker?
9. Will Ford be refreshed and at his best
10. Will Eddie Jones tactics help or hinder the England side.

1. Yes. A bigger question may be how long a run he'll get.
2. I don't think it matters unless we try Simmonds at 8. Curry is still getting bigger, and Underhill never seems to lack power.
3. Who knows. He's not an early developer like Itoje but then who is?
4. Isiekwe just seems on the outside and I doubt he'll get a look in. Martins does seem to be the next big hope. Will Kpoku show up well now Saracens are back in the premiership?
5. I think our expectations of him at international level will always be ahead of performance, but I do think his emergence as a genuine leader will keep him in the squad for decent run. On the other hand we never know where Marler's head is at and Mako has a lot of miles on the clock even if we bear in mind he is a lot younger than he looks, so the competition is not all it could be.
6. Farrell...  Personally I'd like him to step back. If he gets best form back then he offers a great deal but he doesn't inspire the confidence he used to. Other places are up for grabs. Marchant should be ahead of the pack at 13, but Odogwu deserves a chance. Not yet convinced by Lawrence but he's young.
7. It's a nice situation to be in.
8. No idea. I think he will. I suspect it will take a while for him to break into the England team, but will be good to see him in the mix for the next RWC.
9. Yes but it may not be enough.
10. Both.....

The reason i ask...is more to do with the Second Rows. We do seem to lack some mass in there. Does that matter?
Itoje - 6'5  - 17st 5
Johnny Hill - 6'7, 17st 6
Charlie Ewells - 6'6, 17st
Courtney Lawes - 6'7, 17st 11
Joe Launchbury - 6'6, 19st 12 -
George Kruis - 6'6, 19st 5

NZ in their pomp
Sam Whitelock - 6'8, 18st 5
Brodie Rettalick - 6'9, 19st 5

SA currently
Eben Etzebeth - 6'8, 18st 6
Franco Mostert - 6'7, 18st
Lood de Jager - 6'9, 19st 10

We're giving away ALOT of mass in that engine room bar Kruis and Launchbury who are unavailable or injured regularly.

Not to mention they usually have a large unit at 6 aswell....PSDT, Kaino etc etc etc

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