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Calls for an immediate inquest into the Welsh regions

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 06 Apr 2021, 11:33 am

There is unrest in Wales by the looks of it, in the aftermath of a successful 6N the jungle drums are now beating and people want answers as to why the regions are not doing as well as people think they should be.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-regions-face-difficult-times-20322120

How long can this keep going ?

Do others on here think the Welsh regions under perform ?

The outcome of this should be very interesting.

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Post by Brendan Tue 06 Apr 2021, 11:47 am

Did the regions under perform last weekend.  Not really they do as well as they normally do in the league and Europe.

They underperforme much like Bath in England who should be Top4 but aren't.

The Regions are mid to lower table teams apart from Scarlets and have played like such.  They can't expect to just turn it for Europe when they haven't in the league.  If you aren't use to winning games how are you expected to know how to close out games which is what happened.

The Big 3 Irish teams don't just turn it on for Europe (like some might imply), they play to win every game and expect the back up player to come in seamlessly into the team and still win.  Even 3rd choice players aren't given an out.  When it comes to the bigger games you then know you can select a 23 that can win a game

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Post by RiscaGame Tue 06 Apr 2021, 1:03 pm

Pretty poor form by WOL to produce an article from another opinion piece, but then not writing two articles from people criticising the WRU (only putting them in the Headlines bit). Not very balanced.

Not sure what outcome is expected, tbh.

From a Dragons POV, I thought it was a poor decision to take off Keddie for Baker. Baker didn't seem to offer a lot this game and would probably have been better to have had Fry on the bench defensively. I probably wouldn't have taken Rhodri Williams off either, as we had no obvious captain on the field. Williams also played well, aside from being skinned. I also think it would've been better to have had Rio Dyer or similar, instead of Tompkins on the bench, because we lost a lot when Hewitt went off. Dragons also lost a lot by not having Harris and having to play Bateman a bit longer than they wanted to.

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 06 Apr 2021, 1:18 pm

It boils down to money, which is needed to attract better coaches and players. I believe the argument is the WRU are putting money elsewhere rather than into the regions, so you can expect this to continue.

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Post by Brendan Tue 06 Apr 2021, 10:53 pm

Article talks about using the CVC money to develop financial revenue streams for the future.  I think that would be a good investment rather then just blow it on wages like the Blues chairman wants to do.

Until the Welsh teams take the Pro14 seriously and make it something that they put their full effort into they will continue to have night like last weekend.

The few podcasts I listen to talked about the pro14 being a mickey mouse league no one tales seriously and how can it prepare them for Europe.  The thing they overlook is that the when a team does well in the Pro14 it is usually reflected in Europe aswell.  When Scarlets made the semis they also were pushing for Pro14 honours.  As Ulster have become regular quarter finalists they also became regular playoff contenders.

When Europe was restructured the league went from Mickey mouse prep for Europe to a real league where the cream rise to the top.  It is why Pro14 teams have done better at getting into champions cup quarters then previously.  The Regions don't seem to grasp this and so their slip down the league means slipping down Europe.

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Post by Brendan Tue 06 Apr 2021, 11:15 pm

Champions Cup quarters (Pro14 place)
20/21 Leinster (winners) Ulster (A2)
19/20 Leinster (Champions) Ulster (Final)
18/19 Leinster (Champions) Glasgow (Final) Ulster (semi) Munster (semi) Edinburgh (B5)
17/18 Leinster (champions) Scarlets (Final) Munster (Semi)
16/17 (Pro12 so league position) Munster (1) Leinster (2) Glasgow (6) - the Pro12 champions that year were Scarlets.
15/16 No quarter finalists from the league and Connacht won the Pro12 so everyone was rubbish.

It is probably Simillar for the other two leagues

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Post by Brendan Tue 06 Apr 2021, 11:34 pm

Champions Cup Quarters (T14)
20/21 current position for T14 Toulouse (1) La Rochelle (2) Racing (3) Clermont (4) Bordeaux (5)
19/20 T14 unfinished and WC Racing (3) Clermont (6) Toulouse (7)
18/19 Toulouse (1) Racing (4)
17/18 Racing (2) Toulon (4) La Rochelle (7) Clermont (9)
16/17 Clermont (2) Toulon (4) Toulouse (12)
15/16 Toulon (2) Racing (4) Stade (12)

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Post by Brendan Tue 06 Apr 2021, 11:46 pm

Champions Cup (premership)
20/21 Current table Exeter (2) Sale (3)
19/20 Exeter (1) Sarries (4 they picked up 67 points while not trying towards the end) Saints (8)
18/19 Sarries (2)
17/18 Sarries (2)
16/17 Wasps (1) Sarries (3)
15/16 Sarries (1) Exeter (2) Wasps (3) Tigers (4) Saints (5)

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Post by Brendan Wed 07 Apr 2021, 12:02 am

So no need for an inquest.  How do the Regions do better in Europe do better in the league.  Europe is now so compeditive and so strong that having 10 internationals is almost expected of ever team in the Champions Cup.  You need a strong pack, smart half backs and a good game plan.  Not sure any of the Regions currently have them

When the Pro16 kicks off if any Regions is near the top of the league expect them to do well in Europe. If they finish mid table expect them to repeat last weekend again.

One anomaly which the South African teams will discover is that European competitions can take a season or two to adjust before they make the quarters usually. Examples would be Exeter who were second best in England but went 3 years without making a quarter yet finished first in the league (though Sarries usual beat them in the final). Bristol look set to copy Exeter. Teams in France that aren't use to Europe elite can do well in the league yet fall apart in Europe.  Bordeaux and Lyon being great examples of teams who couldn't crack Europe the first couple of years.

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Post by The Oracle Wed 07 Apr 2021, 9:34 am

It is disingenuous to assume that the regions, their coaches and their players don’t take the competitions seriously. You’re confusing sound bites from fans and social media with the views of regions and players when you say they called it a Mickey Mouse league. But feel free to provide some quotes to players and coaches to back your statement up if you like.

‘Taking it seriously’ in your analysis above seems to mean winning more and finishing higher up the league, which again is just daft. You can try your guts out and still not be very good. Yes the regions need investment but it can’t be at the expense of wages. That will just lead to smaller budgets, players leaving for better wages and the teams actually getting worse.

A lot of this goes back to this quasi-provincial setup we have. You’ve got private businesses not being in control of their own finances or destiny. A union who hasn’t got the balls to buy it all up and own it and run it (like the Irish model) because it doesn’t want the risk, but is happy to hold the purse strings (competition monies, player release monies, etc.) and let the regions take all of the risk and responsibility. As the articles states the regions were meant to get their usual x £million annual moneys from the WRU for services (tv and competition money, player release and development money, etc). but instead they are getting around £700,000. Where has that competition money gone? They’re still playing in the league and Europe and being shown on TV. So the WRU.....check this out......the WRU is saying their own finances have been hit so they can’t afford to give the regions the money they’ve earned and is rightfully theirs and....incredibly..... they don’t take a loan out themselves, they ARRANGE a loan for the regions and make them take on the debt. The regions can’t even arrange their own loan deals?! And this is to cover the loss of TV and competition money that the WRU can’t afford to give them this year which should really go straight to the regions anyway.

So doing better for me is strengthening squads, academies, coaching. Not ploughing money into vanity projects. Get the product right first, the fans will follow, sponsorship will go up, and THEN build hotels and bars and fancy things to cater for the increase in interest. But not before.

I wholeheartedly disagree that the regions ‘can’t be bothered’. There are players there in the shop window who are busting a gut to get better contracts, get their place back after injury, get international caps, keep international caps, or just to keep a roof over their heads. You tell them to their faces that that can’t be bothered and are not trying. The simple fact is that the teams are, on the whole, not as good as their Irish and French counterparts currently. I’m happy for you that your Irish teams have got the model right and have found a blueprint that works for them and their success, but it is arrogant in the extreme to come on here accusing people of not trying. I feel for the groundstaff, the marketing people, the back room staff, physios, community officers, etc. who have to read this tripe about them not taking pro rugby seriously.


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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 07 Apr 2021, 10:08 am

Maybe they were all just beaten by better teams on the day.

IE Falcons v Ospreys...we are perennial bottom dwellers in the Prem...but we have the players that once in a while we decide to put together a very good game. We played very well for the last 50 mins of the game and were deserved winners.

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Post by The Oracle Wed 07 Apr 2021, 10:16 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Maybe they were all just beaten by better teams on the day.

IE Falcons v Ospreys...we are perennial bottom dwellers in the Prem...but we have the players that once in a while we decide to put together a very good game. We played very well for the last 50 mins of the game and were deserved winners.


Exactly this.  I posted the same yesterday but it got deleted along with Brendan's original post.  We have to accept that we are just not as good currently.  Now it could be to do with funding, academy strength, coaching, etc.  But to say it's because we don't take it seriously is either a WUM or a real kick in the nuts for the people who work hard to even get a team out there.  Some fans might not take it seriously but that doesn't mean that the players/coaches do not.  Often (or more than often) we just come up against better teams, either on the day or generally.


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Post by mikey_dragon Wed 07 Apr 2021, 11:40 am

Yeah I think Newcastle did well. They've won some notable games this season already, some of them away from home.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 07 Apr 2021, 12:05 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Yeah I think Newcastle did well. They've won some notable games this season already, some of them away from home.
Bit of a Jekyll and Hyde team at the moment Mikey. We have some very good players and are improving.

So as i said above...i expected a good beating by Ospreys but it just happened it was one of our "On" days after the Ospreys had dominated the first 30 mins.

And as for Sale v Scarlets...well Sale are an absolute powerhouse of a side...who when they click are very impressive indeed. Scarlets havent played a huge amount together due to the 6n, and were just unlucky on the day aswell that Sale were in top form.

id say it was a bad weekend at the office for the Welsh boys. It happens.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 07 Apr 2021, 2:20 pm

Bad days at the office can happen. That Scarlets defeat though, there should be an inquest after that.

W Jones - Wales loosehead and a form player of the 6N
Owens (capt) - Wales international and long standing talent
Scholtz - generic South African prop
Ball - Welsh international
Lousi - Tongan international
Shingler - 24 Wales caps
J Morgan - Wales under 20 captain
Kalamafoni - Tongan international

Rodd - England under 20 prop
Van der Merwe - South African 3 cap international
John - journeyman tighthead
Wiese - young South African lock uncapped
Beaumont (capt) - England A representation but now 27
JL du Preez - 13 SA caps
T Curry - England international, iffy 6N form
D du Preez - 4 SA caps

There is no way that those packs display the level of difference that a 57-14 loss would suggest.

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Post by RiscaGame Wed 07 Apr 2021, 2:47 pm

Yeah, you would probably have expected Scarlets to do better. It seems their supporters haven't been happy for a few weeks, with the coaching or whatever though. Guess that's part of the reason Scarlets are pushing for Peel, with Delaney to move "upstairs" too.

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Post by mikey_dragon Wed 07 Apr 2021, 3:39 pm

Sale didn’t seem to do much, apart from execute their game plan to a T. It worked well, but even they probably didn’t expect it to work that well. I would be surprised if the board sweep that one under the rug. First a massive defeat at home to Leinster and now this. You wouldn’t expect this from a staff which includes Delaney, Franks and Fitzpatrick.

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Post by Brendan Wed 07 Apr 2021, 4:09 pm

Tigers took some big beatings in the Champions Cup just before they took a dive down the Premership table.  I don't know if Scarlets are about to do the same but the Regions can't give out that they did poorly when they have been doing poorly in the league and have been rolled over repeated in the league. Any coach would have watched the Pro14 performances and seen that being physical with the Scarlets gets you a win. A few years ago they would have dealt with physically in the league and Europe.

While the teams say they take the league seriously when was the last time a Region's players or coaches came out and said the standard wasn't acceptable. Or a coach was let go for not getting champions cup spot.  If teams don't go 100% in the league the players can't expect to do it in Europe.

It's also not really about money when you see the players Scarlets had on the field. Also apart from the Scarlets the other teams had done all the hard work and where ahead and just had to see out the last 15 mins with big leads.  I will also point out that Connacht also let themselves down but this season when the chips were down v Munster, Ulster, Scarlets and Ospreys they failed too and let teams get away from them which unsurprisingly is what they did v Tigers. Seeing out games has also been and issue and they failed there too.

The issues last weekend were not to do with the opposition.
Scarlets can't score at home in the first half.  Bigger team normally effects the end of the game not the start of the game.
Ospreys 14-0 up after 13 mins to 17-28 down at home with plenty of internationals.
Dragons at home 39-24 up with 20 mins left and conceded 19 unanswered points.  Also against 13 men score 1 try and conceded 1 try.
Cardiff conceded 3 tries in the last 10 minutes against 14 men and can't manage the clock when the game is tight.

My point is when was the last time the Regions held on for a win in the league.  Leinster v Ospreys only one I can think of.
Newcastle, Saints and Irish have some games this season where they dug in to get results.  When it got to the end of the match the team new what to do because they had done it before.

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Post by RiscaGame Wed 07 Apr 2021, 4:23 pm

Dragons have held on for a win, in their last two league games.

I really don't get your point about coaching staff losing jobs either.

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Post by Brendan Wed 07 Apr 2021, 4:24 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Sale didn’t seem to do much, apart from execute their game plan to a T.

That in part is the point that everyone and their dog knew what Sale were going to do but the players couldn't think their way around them because they rarely do it in the league.

Glasgow use to be a bit like that too and never developed experiences on how to out think teams.  It's why they were always bullied by the big teams in the big games.  Ulster on the other hand who also like to play fast and lose have some plan for the bigger teams that sometimes works and sometimes don't but through the league have developed a plan that the whole squad can do when being outuscled.

Leinster aren't the best team because they spend the most in the league it's because they have developed plans on how to beat ever sort of team that players can dip into during games when teams get the upper hand.

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Post by The Oracle Wed 07 Apr 2021, 4:42 pm

I think you’re cherry picking examples now. What have Glasgow and Edinburgh done in Europe? What has happened to their league form? Why are they not able to take on the big boys anymore?
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Post by Brendan Wed 07 Apr 2021, 5:16 pm

RiscaGame wrote:Dragons have held on for a win, in their last two league games.

I really don't get your point about coaching staff losing jobs either.

Against Edinbrugh is fair enough. I will point out in that game Dragons didn't score after 34 minutes in that game so you would expect a team to have to hold on to win.
Don't accept v Glasgow as Glasgow didn't score after 40mins while Dragons scored 17 points after that time so not really hanging on.

What makes the Dragons result more surprising is in their last 5 games apart from Edinburgh they finished stronger and maybe that was the issue was when they went ahead and aren't quite comfortable being in the lead to early as shown by Edinburgh but prefer to chase a game.

I do think Dragon have improved and were less at fault but league form suggests they still aren't comfortable being in front yet.


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Post by Brendan Wed 07 Apr 2021, 5:21 pm

The Oracle wrote:I think you’re cherry picking examples now. What have Glasgow and Edinburgh done in Europe? What has happened to their league form? Why are they not able to take on the big boys anymore?

Thread is not about Scotland but it completely backs up what I am saying which is that Edinbrugh had such bad league form it's no surprise they got spanked by Racing where as Connacht who had better league form did better (but couldn't get over the line like league form suggested too).

Glasgow ended up in the challange cup because they went from top table team to bottom half team so in Europe got beat in the Champions Cup and did respectable (but not great) in the challange

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 07 Apr 2021, 6:59 pm

Brendan wrote:
The Oracle wrote:I think you’re cherry picking examples now. What have Glasgow and Edinburgh done in Europe? What has happened to their league form? Why are they not able to take on the big boys anymore?

Thread is not about Scotland but it completely backs up what I am saying which is that Edinbrugh had such bad league form it's no surprise they got spanked by Racing where as Connacht who had better league form did better (but couldn't get over the line like league form suggested too).

Glasgow ended up in the challange cup because they went from top table team to bottom half team so in Europe got beat in the Champions Cup and did respectable (but not great) in the challange

To be fair Edinburgh played a strong Racing team that are exceptional where as Connacht played a mixed Tigers side that finished the game with 6 or the 8 forwards aged 21 and under. Connacht really should have done better though after hearing that their comment mentioned wearing out the big Tigers pack maybe he hadn't done the required research as to recent coaching appointments.

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Post by Brendan Wed 07 Apr 2021, 7:50 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Brendan wrote:
The Oracle wrote:I think you’re cherry picking examples now. What have Glasgow and Edinburgh done in Europe? What has happened to their league form? Why are they not able to take on the big boys anymore?

Thread is not about Scotland but it completely backs up what I am saying which is that Edinbrugh had such bad league form it's no surprise they got spanked by Racing where as Connacht who had better league form did better (but couldn't get over the line like league form suggested too).

Glasgow ended up in the challange cup because they went from top table team to bottom half team so in Europe got beat in the Champions Cup and did respectable (but not great) in the challange

To be fair Edinburgh played a strong Racing team that are exceptional where as Connacht played a mixed Tigers side that finished the game with 6 or the 8 forwards aged 21 and under. Connacht really should have done better though after hearing that their comment mentioned wearing out the big Tigers pack maybe he hadn't done the required research as to recent coaching appointments.

I was referring to when Racing hosted Connacht in the Champions Cup in December and lost 26 - 22.

As I have said on this thread Connacht also did poorly

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 07 Apr 2021, 7:54 pm

Brendan wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Brendan wrote:
The Oracle wrote:I think you’re cherry picking examples now. What have Glasgow and Edinburgh done in Europe? What has happened to their league form? Why are they not able to take on the big boys anymore?

Thread is not about Scotland but it completely backs up what I am saying which is that Edinbrugh had such bad league form it's no surprise they got spanked by Racing where as Connacht who had better league form did better (but couldn't get over the line like league form suggested too).

Glasgow ended up in the challange cup because they went from top table team to bottom half team so in Europe got beat in the Champions Cup and did respectable (but not great) in the challange

To be fair Edinburgh played a strong Racing team that are exceptional where as Connacht played a mixed Tigers side that finished the game with 6 or the 8 forwards aged 21 and under. Connacht really should have done better though after hearing that their comment mentioned wearing out the big Tigers pack maybe he hadn't done the required research as to recent coaching appointments.

I was referring to when Racing hosted Connacht in the Champions Cup in December and lost 26 - 22.

As I have said on this thread Connacht also did poorly

Ah apologies.

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Post by Brendan Wed 07 Apr 2021, 8:01 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Brendan wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Brendan wrote:
The Oracle wrote:I think you’re cherry picking examples now. What have Glasgow and Edinburgh done in Europe? What has happened to their league form? Why are they not able to take on the big boys anymore?

Thread is not about Scotland but it completely backs up what I am saying which is that Edinbrugh had such bad league form it's no surprise they got spanked by Racing where as Connacht who had better league form did better (but couldn't get over the line like league form suggested too).

Glasgow ended up in the challange cup because they went from top table team to bottom half team so in Europe got beat in the Champions Cup and did respectable (but not great) in the challange

To be fair Edinburgh played a strong Racing team that are exceptional where as Connacht played a mixed Tigers side that finished the game with 6 or the 8 forwards aged 21 and under. Connacht really should have done better though after hearing that their comment mentioned wearing out the big Tigers pack maybe he hadn't done the required research as to recent coaching appointments.

I was referring to when Racing hosted Connacht in the Champions Cup in December and lost 26 - 22.

As I have said on this thread Connacht also did poorly

Ah apologies.

Its grand. At the time Connacht were bringing good form with them from the league. They didn't finish the league well and failed to land a shot in any of their big games.

Tigers again are a good example of bringing some league form into Europe. Since losing to Irish they have only lost to the top 4 and seem to be bringing through some good young players

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 07 Apr 2021, 8:15 pm

We've also managed to then Welford Road into a bit more of a fortress again. Wait til some of the new players experience it with the fans in.

Tigers went to extreme lengths to remodel their academy some years back and have started to enjoy the benefits. The recruitment policy of looking for age grade players at clubs in lower divisions or who have just come out the age grade system and aren't getting game time looks like a canny one. It means that an increasing amount of the squad behind the first team are made up of talented and hungry young players.

The pack that finished the game are a good indication of this;

1. Whitcombe 19 England age grade from the academy
2. Dolly 21 former England age grade was playing for Coventry
3. Hurd 21 former Scotland age grade despite being from Leicestershire and was acquired from Glasgow
4. Wells 27 NA
5. Henderson 20 Scotland age grade acquired from Glasgow but had previous links to Tigers academy (I think)
6. Martin 19 recently capped by England academy product
7. Reffell 21 former Wales age grade captain Tigers academy product
8. Weise 25 NA

After the first Connacht try I and I think most other Tigers fans had settled in expecting a long evening. It was good end to end game actually and I think Connacht got sucked into that a little bit which played into Tigers hands.

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Post by Brendan Wed 07 Apr 2021, 9:08 pm

Connacht only know how to play end to end wh8ch in the big games kill them.

Interesting on the academy. From things I am hearing it one of the things Ospreys are working hard on improving to help bring good talent through more regularly.

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Post by y ddraig goch Wed 07 Apr 2021, 11:51 pm

There's too much misinformation in this thread to even begin trying to deal with any of it. Money doesn't matter? Erm

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 08 Apr 2021, 8:09 am

Brendan wrote:Connacht only know how to play end to end wh8ch in the big games kill them.

Interesting on the academy.  From things I am hearing it one of the things Ospreys are working hard on improving to help bring good talent through more regularly.

Depends what the issues with the academy are. Tigers had two old boys who were bullies and more focused on what school young lads were at as opposed to how good they were. Once they were booted out (one went to Glaws and then was later sacked for bullying) things improved greatly. Geordan Murphy also brought in a development player pathway to the first team that Cockers had pretty much destroyed over his time at the club as he was only really interested in the instant stars not a player you needed to develop through.

It took years to bring into fruition it wasn't a quick fix.

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Post by The Oracle Thu 08 Apr 2021, 6:20 pm

Some reasons/excuses given by the Scarlets for their poor performance the other day. Pretty poor, but funny at the same time!:

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/we-had-boys-calling-welsh-team-calls-as-opposed-to-scarlets-calls-incredible-excuse-emerges-for-champions-cup-hammering/?fbclid=IwAR0HLHiY-AVDnhrIP6gJw4ee6MXb1n6koYPz_vUW_lSx_dpmfifMjAsaoaM
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Post by RiscaGame Thu 08 Apr 2021, 7:27 pm

Yeah, I heard he said that. Heard he said some other things too, but they’re not relevant to this thread (budgets between several teams).

I probably wouldn’t have mentioned the wrong calls tbh laughing

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Post by PhilBB Mon 10 May 2021, 9:52 am

Always worth remembering that Dean Ryan earns £284,000 a year

I wonder what the combined wage bills of McBryde, Contepomi, Lancaster and Cullen is, before you get to the cost of the different squads.

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Post by The Oracle Mon 10 May 2021, 12:30 pm

Do you think that salary is OK Phil? Or too high? It seems a lot to me but I don't know what others in similar roles earn. Compared to Pat Lam (I know, I know........ completely different circumstances the teams find themselves in!) Ryan's salary is only around 1/3rd of the cost.

How does it compare to other regional DoR or head coach salaries?
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Post by PhilBB Mon 10 May 2021, 12:32 pm

The Oracle wrote:Do you think that salary is OK Phil?  Or too high?  It seems a lot to me but I don't know what others in similar roles earn.  Compared to Pat Lam (I know, I know........ completely different circumstances the teams find themselves in!) Ryan's salary is only around 1/3rd of the cost.

How does it compare to other regional DoR or head coach salaries?

I think, for Ryan, it's pretty steep. Steep by about £84,000

For the Leinster boys, it's cheap
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Post by Pot Hale Mon 10 May 2021, 5:12 pm

PhilBB wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Do you think that salary is OK Phil?  Or too high?  It seems a lot to me but I don't know what others in similar roles earn.  Compared to Pat Lam (I know, I know........ completely different circumstances the teams find themselves in!) Ryan's salary is only around 1/3rd of the cost.

How does it compare to other regional DoR or head coach salaries?

I think, for Ryan, it's pretty steep. Steep by about £84,000

For the Leinster boys, it's cheap

The Leinster coaching bill is €1.1m approx plus win bonus incentives. Lancaster, McBryde and Contemponi have signed extensions for 2 years. Cullen only signed for one year for personal reasons.
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Post by Brendan Mon 10 May 2021, 9:50 pm

Glad to see Scarlets acting and making the change at the top. Seems like they have identified their man and made it happen. Good to see.

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Post by PhilBB Tue 11 May 2021, 11:35 am

Pot Hale wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Do you think that salary is OK Phil?  Or too high?  It seems a lot to me but I don't know what others in similar roles earn.  Compared to Pat Lam (I know, I know........ completely different circumstances the teams find themselves in!) Ryan's salary is only around 1/3rd of the cost.

How does it compare to other regional DoR or head coach salaries?

I think, for Ryan, it's pretty steep. Steep by about £84,000

For the Leinster boys, it's cheap

The Leinster coaching bill is €1.1m approx plus win bonus incentives.  Lancaster, McBryde and Contemponi have signed extensions for 2 years.  Cullen only signed for one year for personal reasons.  

https://www.leinsterrugby.ie/teams/management/

All of those for €1.1m?

Excuse me if I struggle to believe that.
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Post by PhilBB Tue 11 May 2021, 11:54 am

Here's the topic for the inquest that should be happening:

https://twitter.com/croderick1982/status/1392067651489382401?s=20

"I'm a current Scarlets season ticket holder who's just bought a Bristol Bears season ticket for next season. Only so much reserve team rugby against teams I don't care about that I can watch." for those who won't click

I've bored people to death with the startling revelation that the PrO'Shambles will slowly kill professional rugby in Wales but here's just more fuel to that fire.

The WRU has no interest in securing a stable professional game in Wales. The present Executive know they can ride their gravy train until the present talent evaporates through age, leaving the next lot to pick up the pieces.

The game in Wales is rotten at the very top.
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Post by PhilBB Tue 11 May 2021, 1:15 pm

To underline (further) the sheer rank amateurism of this dreadful "league":

https://twitter.com/_AlexBywater/status/1392083405555310598?s=20

"There is no rugby on the list of pilot events for now due to the fact the fixture list for the Guinness PRO14 Rainbow Cup is yet to be confirmed. It does give hope though that some Wales fans will be able to attend the three summer Tests in Cardiff this July."

Yet. To. Be. Confirmed.
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Post by RiscaGame Tue 11 May 2021, 2:55 pm

Confirmed now. No R5 game for Dragons, so we end up with the two games that were known ages ago. Unbelievable.

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Post by PhilBB Tue 11 May 2021, 3:11 pm

https://twitter.com/CardiffRugbyWeb/status/1392117770217787392?s=20

"It's been three weeks since confirmation that the South Africans wouldn't be coming to Europe.

Since then competition organisers haven't put in any replacement fixtures and still haven't confirmed one of the kick-off times for one of the previously fixtured games.

Shambles."

The PrO'14 is so utterly pathetic as to be way beyond a joke.
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Post by LordDowlais Tue 11 May 2021, 3:30 pm

Also, this stupid comp has cost George North his Lions place.

What a joke.

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Post by Pot Hale Tue 11 May 2021, 5:54 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Do you think that salary is OK Phil?  Or too high?  It seems a lot to me but I don't know what others in similar roles earn.  Compared to Pat Lam (I know, I know........ completely different circumstances the teams find themselves in!) Ryan's salary is only around 1/3rd of the cost.

How does it compare to other regional DoR or head coach salaries?

I think, for Ryan, it's pretty steep. Steep by about £84,000

For the Leinster boys, it's cheap

The Leinster coaching bill is €1.1m approx plus win bonus incentives.  Lancaster, McBryde and Contemponi have signed extensions for 2 years.  Cullen only signed for one year for personal reasons.  

https://www.leinsterrugby.ie/teams/management/

All of those for €1.1m?

Excuse me if I struggle to believe that.

Nope - the four honchos in coaching as named above.
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Post by Brendan Tue 11 May 2021, 9:37 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Also, this stupid comp has cost George North his Lions place.

What a joke.

Guess if the same game had been the Pro14 or Anglo Welsh league it would magically have stopped him from getting injured.

Playing rugby regardless of the competition is always a risk for a professional player.

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Post by doctor_grey Tue 11 May 2021, 11:48 pm

PhilBB wrote:https://twitter.com/CardiffRugbyWeb/status/1392117770217787392?s=20

"It's been three weeks since confirmation that the South Africans wouldn't be coming to Europe.

Since then competition organisers haven't put in any replacement fixtures and still haven't confirmed one of the kick-off times for one of the previously fixtured games.

Shambles."

The PrO'14 is so utterly pathetic as to be way beyond a joke.
OK, the Pro14 should have had a backup plan in place. But, I think it is hard to criticise for not perfectly managing a (hopefully) once in a hundred year global disaster. They tried an initiative which would be great for Rugby and for us as fans. They got it wrong because Covid is in charge and makes its own rules that even our best experts struggle to keep up with. But they looked on the positive side, took the advise of mostly the right people, and tried to make it work. I would cut the Pro14 management some slack on this.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 12 May 2021, 8:09 am

Brendan wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Also, this stupid comp has cost George North his Lions place.

What a joke.

Guess if the same game had been the Pro14 or Anglo Welsh league it would magically have stopped him from getting injured.

Playing rugby regardless of the competition is always a risk for a professional player.

Your missing the point, again.

This stupid end of season tournament did not need to be played. He should have been resting, but instead he got himself injured in a game that means nothing. If the South African teams could play the Pro14 teams then fair enough, it would have meant something, as we could have had a taster for next season.

I just hope no other Lions get injured in this pointless tournament.

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Post by Pot Hale Wed 12 May 2021, 9:33 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Brendan wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Also, this stupid comp has cost George North his Lions place.

What a joke.

Guess if the same game had been the Pro14 or Anglo Welsh league it would magically have stopped him from getting injured.

Playing rugby regardless of the competition is always a risk for a professional player.

Your missing the point, again.

This stupid end of season tournament did not need to be played. He should have been resting, but instead he got himself injured in a game that means nothing. If the South African teams could play the Pro14 teams then fair enough, it would have meant something, as we could have had a taster for next season.

I just hope no other Lions get injured in this pointless tournament.

George North should have been resting? Whilst the other members of the Lions squad were playing and staying competitive? I don't think George North would agree with you.

The Rainbow Cup was partly designed to ensure that the £6m due from SARU for their participation was paid to the 4 union stakeholders in PRO Rugby. If it was not played then the monies - badly needed by the Welsh regions - would not have been paid. No one in WRU or in the Welsh regions was saying that the tournament should be abandoned. If the PRO14 had continued on with its matches and not curtailed, the monies would not have been paid either. It's impossible for sport administrators to plan with finality or certainty in the context of Covid with a number of territories having different rates of infection, restrictions and vaccination programmes.
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Post by LordDowlais Wed 12 May 2021, 9:40 am

Pot Hale wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Brendan wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Also, this stupid comp has cost George North his Lions place.

What a joke.

Guess if the same game had been the Pro14 or Anglo Welsh league it would magically have stopped him from getting injured.

Playing rugby regardless of the competition is always a risk for a professional player.

Your missing the point, again.

This stupid end of season tournament did not need to be played. He should have been resting, but instead he got himself injured in a game that means nothing. If the South African teams could play the Pro14 teams then fair enough, it would have meant something, as we could have had a taster for next season.

I just hope no other Lions get injured in this pointless tournament.

George North should have been resting?   Whilst the other members of the Lions squad were playing and staying competitive?   I don't think George North would agree with you.

The Rainbow Cup was partly designed to ensure that the £6m due from SARU for their participation was paid to the 4 union stakeholders in PRO Rugby.   If it was not played then the monies - badly needed by the Welsh regions - would not have been paid.  No one in WRU or in the Welsh regions was saying that the tournament should be abandoned.  If the PRO14 had continued on with its matches and not curtailed, the monies would not have been paid either.   It's impossible for sport administrators to plan with finality or certainty in the context of Covid with a number of territories having different rates of infection, restrictions and vaccination programmes.  

They should have played it when the pandemic was over. If SA is still struggling to control covid, then the rainbow cup should not have gone ahead. They could have played this competition next season. The way they wanted, and not the farce it is now.

SA will get the pandemic under control in their country, just as we have, it should have been played then.

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