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Calls for an immediate inquest into the Welsh regions

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Irish Londoner
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Post by LordDowlais Tue 06 Apr 2021, 11:33 am

First topic message reminder :

There is unrest in Wales by the looks of it, in the aftermath of a successful 6N the jungle drums are now beating and people want answers as to why the regions are not doing as well as people think they should be.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-regions-face-difficult-times-20322120

How long can this keep going ?

Do others on here think the Welsh regions under perform ?

The outcome of this should be very interesting.

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Post by Welshmushroom Fri 02 Jul 2021, 1:43 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The regions seem to have come to an agreement with the WRU over funding.


Which, of course, is all non-sensical bull. And a pack of lies.

The figures to be paid are complete unknowns, without a minimum guarantee and completely rely on WRU income. This is just management of the news to hide the fact that Phillips failed to renegotiate the loan with Nat West, having it 'deferred temporarily' instead.

Didn't they just confirm confirm this yesterday on both the regional websites and WRU website not to mention a ton of outlets.  Pretty sure they specified funding in the press releases.

In which case you haven't read it. Read it. There's no commitment to anything.

Petty sure the BBC are reporting exact funding values. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/57665959

The amounts are clearly defined. Granted there are provisions in it (which is the case in almost any legal due to liability) as there are always variables that can't be anticipated for.

If as you suggest nothing was defined there wouldn't have been a need to sign a new agreement. Clearly both parties are happy with this and have signed up as stated in the article. See quote "Success on the field requires a realistic and sustainable funding plan which I am delighted we have agreed," said Blanc (Chairman for the PRB - who represent the 4 regions.

Anyway your boring me now.....








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Post by Intotouch Thu 08 Jul 2021, 2:45 am

Hello PhilBB. Why do you think that the Dragons would be better off if the WRU sells them off? “the Dragons (who, hopefully, will be out of WRU ownership at some point during the next season).” Are they not more likely to survive if owned by the union? Is the WRU investing less in the Dragons than you think a private owner would?

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Post by PhilBB Wed 28 Jul 2021, 2:38 pm

Intotouch wrote:Hello PhilBB. Why do you think that the Dragons would be better off if the WRU sells them off? “the Dragons (who, hopefully, will be out of WRU ownership at some point during the next season).” Are they not more likely to survive if owned by the union? Is the WRU investing less in the Dragons than you think a private owner would?

No rugby club should be owned by a Union.

The Dragons will be better off as they'll be able to generate their own income and control their own future.

At present, the Dragons receive more from the WRU than do the other three.
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Post by PhilBB Wed 28 Jul 2021, 2:39 pm

Welshmushroom wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The regions seem to have come to an agreement with the WRU over funding.


Which, of course, is all non-sensical bull. And a pack of lies.

The figures to be paid are complete unknowns, without a minimum guarantee and completely rely on WRU income. This is just management of the news to hide the fact that Phillips failed to renegotiate the loan with Nat West, having it 'deferred temporarily' instead.

Didn't they just confirm confirm this yesterday on both the regional websites and WRU website not to mention a ton of outlets.  Pretty sure they specified funding in the press releases.

In which case you haven't read it. Read it. There's no commitment to anything.

Petty sure the BBC are reporting exact funding values. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/57665959

The amounts are clearly defined.  Granted there are provisions in it (which is the case in almost any legal due to liability) as there are always variables that can't be anticipated for.  

If as you suggest nothing was defined there wouldn't have been a need to sign a new agreement.  Clearly both parties are happy with this and have signed up as stated in the article.  See quote "Success on the field requires a realistic and sustainable funding plan which I am delighted we have agreed," said Blanc (Chairman for the PRB - who represent the 4 regions.

Anyway your boring me now.....


There is no new agreement. There is nothing defined. Those are just projections.

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Post by Irish Londoner Thu 29 Jul 2021, 11:30 am

PhilBB wrote:
Intotouch wrote:Hello PhilBB. Why do you think that the Dragons would be better off if the WRU sells them off? “the Dragons (who, hopefully, will be out of WRU ownership at some point during the next season).” Are they not more likely to survive if owned by the union? Is the WRU investing less in the Dragons than you think a private owner would?

No rugby club should be owned by a Union.

The Dragons will be better off as they'll be able to generate their own income and control their own future.

At present, the Dragons receive more from the WRU than do the other three.

Why should no rugby club be run by a union ? Apart from PhillBB doesn't like it?

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Post by Brendan Thu 29 Jul 2021, 12:56 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Intotouch wrote:Hello PhilBB. Why do you think that the Dragons would be better off if the WRU sells them off? “the Dragons (who, hopefully, will be out of WRU ownership at some point during the next season).” Are they not more likely to survive if owned by the union? Is the WRU investing less in the Dragons than you think a private owner would?

No rugby club should be owned by a Union.

The Dragons will be better off as they'll be able to generate their own income and control their own future.

At present, the Dragons receive more from the WRU than do the other three.

Why should no rugby club be run by a union ? Apart from PhillBB doesn't like it?

I think that most Dragon fans would view the Union owned period as better than the non union owned period that preceded it. Add in that the WRU seemed to have been limited by the other 3 teams as to how much they can invest. If the WRU had free reign I think most people wouldn't want it not Union owned.

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Post by Intotouch Fri 30 Jul 2021, 7:23 am

Why should no rugby club be owned by a union PhilBB?

Controlling their own future and generating their own income sounds great but how many rugby clubs generate their own income?

I’m not up to date with premiership clubs finances but a few years ago only Exeter weren’t in debt. Rugby clubs in France also seem to run at a loss. The reality as I see it is that the majority of clubs are either owned by unions or indulgent millionaires. And if they are pet projects of individuals that isn’t really controlling their own future.

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Post by Brendan Fri 30 Jul 2021, 10:50 am

I think some people think all teams should be private owned with large handouts from unions. If you take out union funding most private owned teams fall over night.

Many people have two jobs that they agree terms with. I am sure that players would choose RFU over the club's if it came to a head.

Yes both get benefits for the agreement but if the international game went amateur the 6N would still sell out, not sure the same can be said for the professional clubs. Farrel is worth more to Sarries in terms of income because everyone knows him as a RFU employee. Doubt a non international 10 would be worth the same for the club.

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Post by PhilBB Fri 30 Jul 2021, 11:50 am

Irish Londoner wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Intotouch wrote:Hello PhilBB. Why do you think that the Dragons would be better off if the WRU sells them off? “the Dragons (who, hopefully, will be out of WRU ownership at some point during the next season).” Are they not more likely to survive if owned by the union? Is the WRU investing less in the Dragons than you think a private owner would?

No rugby club should be owned by a Union.

The Dragons will be better off as they'll be able to generate their own income and control their own future.

At present, the Dragons receive more from the WRU than do the other three.

Why should no rugby club be run by a union ? Apart from PhillBB doesn't like it?

Because the essence of sport is that the club lives and dies by its own efforts, not as a puppy plaything of a governing body. Furthermore, the governing body is supposed to treat its members equally.

Your question suggests you don't understand the basics of sport.
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Post by PhilBB Fri 30 Jul 2021, 11:51 am

Brendan wrote:
I think that most Dragon fans would view the Union owned period as better than the non union owned period that preceded it.  Add in that the WRU seemed to have been limited by the other 3 teams as to how much they can invest.  If the WRU had free reign I think most people wouldn't want it not Union owned.

There was no period of 'non union owned' so God knows what you're making up.

The WRU aren't limited by the other three, either, so you continue to write garbage. Your final sentence indicates that you don't understand Welsh rugby.
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Post by PhilBB Fri 30 Jul 2021, 11:52 am

Intotouch wrote: how many rugby clubs generate their own income?

And if they are pet projects of individuals that isn’t really controlling their own future.

All of them and yes they are.
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Post by PhilBB Fri 30 Jul 2021, 11:54 am

Brendan wrote:I think some people think all teams should be private owned with large handouts from unions.  If you take out union funding most private owned teams fall over night.

Many people have two jobs that they agree terms with.  I am sure that players would choose RFU over the club's if it came to a head.

Yes both get benefits for the agreement but if the international game went amateur the 6N would still sell out, not sure the same can be said for the professional clubs.  Farrel is worth more to Sarries in terms of income because everyone knows him as a RFU employee.  Doubt a non international 10 would be worth the same for the club.

There is no handout and there is no funding. There's just a payment.

There's no doubt that the international game has a greater exposure, at this stage of professionalism in rugby. There's also little doubt that international rugby is now saturated and the growth market is only club rugby.

Interesting how you think it could come to a head.
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Post by Brendan Fri 30 Jul 2021, 8:55 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Brendan wrote:I think some people think all teams should be private owned with large handouts from unions.  If you take out union funding most private owned teams fall over night.

Many people have two jobs that they agree terms with.  I am sure that players would choose RFU over the club's if it came to a head.

Yes both get benefits for the agreement but if the international game went amateur the 6N would still sell out, not sure the same can be said for the professional clubs.  Farrel is worth more to Sarries in terms of income because everyone knows him as a RFU employee.  Doubt a non international 10 would be worth the same for the club.

There is no handout and there is no funding. There's just a payment.

There's no doubt that the international game has a greater exposure, at this stage of professionalism in rugby. There's also little doubt that international rugby is now saturated and the growth market is only club rugby.

Interesting how you think it could come to a head.

I have two jobs, one of my employers does not pay the other for having my time.  I agree my time with each separately.  The professional teams would be lost without Union funding.

I never said it would come to a head.  I said if the RFU chose to not pay the PRL (like they have effectively done with the championship) that the players would take the RFU coin over the PRL most likely.

RFU are paying the PRL £25.5m per season but the second 4 years there is talk of that halving. So these privately owned clubs that are so great are needing Union hand outs.  Or if we look at the private owned teams in Wales who have needed the WRU to pay 80% of 38 players wages.  Not sure how many are at the Dragons but  if private owners are so great why do they need so much Union money, why not just get grants for stadium and pitch improvements like normal clubs. What T1 union would fall part if the Private owners pulled the plug.

As far as I am aware (and I could be wrong) but the only Union owned team to cease trading was the boarders.  It could be argued that the Force would have but for a private owner so we will count that too.

Private owned teams to fold
Kings ceased trading and may never be seen again as a private team.
Arroni folded when their private backers stepped away.
Warriors was a private owned team who ceased trading that was helped out by the Union. If the Union hadn't stepped in to bring it to an orderly conclusion it could have been a mid season mess.
As it is about Welsh teams (The thread incase I get accused of only talking about Wales), Regionalism showed the complete mess the private backed teams had got themselves into and if the WRU had not stepped in and made it happen how many of the 8 teams to form the Regions would have gone bust knowing what we know now how much debt there was being hidden from the public. Of those 8 teams how many of them could afford to go on like they were without running into difficulties.
Richmond, London Welsh Leeds and others who had to drop down levels after insolvency
I am sure there are French teams that have also suffered simillar fate.

Unions generally don't walk away from their own teams unless it is going to drag the Union down (such as the boarders).  When a private owner walks away there often isn't another private owner ready such as the cases above, or you get situations like Worcester and Ospreys unfold before they finally find a new backer.

I doubt the internationals is at saturation point.  Most of the T1 international teams fill their Stadia for games against T2 teams.  Most people in Rugby follow the Union with professional teams comfortably second.  France maybe is the exception but maybe that is why they nearly have as many professional teams as the other 6N countries combined. You only have to look at the press coverage any rest week in the 6N to know where rugby fans interest lies.

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Post by Irish Londoner Mon 02 Aug 2021, 10:31 am

PhilBB wrote:
Brendan wrote:I think some people think all teams should be private owned with large handouts from unions.  If you take out union funding most private owned teams fall over night.

Many people have two jobs that they agree terms with.  I am sure that players would choose RFU over the club's if it came to a head.

Yes both get benefits for the agreement but if the international game went amateur the 6N would still sell out, not sure the same can be said for the professional clubs.  Farrel is worth more to Sarries in terms of income because everyone knows him as a RFU employee.  Doubt a non international 10 would be worth the same for the club.

There is no handout and there is no funding. There's just a payment.

There's no doubt that the international game has a greater exposure, at this stage of professionalism in rugby. There's also little doubt that international rugby is now saturated and the growth market is only club rugby.

Interesting how you think it could come to a head.

Apart from the semantics what's the difference between a payment and funding?
Without the money that the clubs get from the unions - whatever you call it - there would be at best a dozen viable professional clubs in the whole of GB and NI - Leinster would be OK with the money they could generate in Dublin, maybe Ulster on a smaller scale, none of the Scottish teams, none of the Welsh teams and only the sugar daddy clubs in England - Saracens, Bath, etc. probably Tigers,Saints and Quins could keep going albeit in "much reduced" circumstances given they have a solid supporter base.

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Post by PhilBB Tue 10 Aug 2021, 3:01 pm

Brendan wrote:
I have two jobs, one of my employers does not pay the other for having my time.  I agree my time with each separately.  .

That's not how professional rugby works in Wales, Brendan. Or anywhere else where the players aren't contracted to the Union.
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Post by PhilBB Tue 10 Aug 2021, 3:02 pm

Brendan wrote:
I never said it would come to a head.  I said if the RFU chose to not pay the PRL (like they have effectively done with the championship) that the players would take the RFU coin over the PRL most likely.

Other than the fact the RFU can't afford "the coin" for 13+ clubs
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Post by PhilBB Tue 10 Aug 2021, 3:02 pm

Brendan wrote:
RFU are paying the PRL £25.5m per season but the second 4 years there is talk of that halving. So these privately owned clubs that are so great are needing Union hand outs.

Your first sentence includes "paying". The second used "hand outs"

Dear Christ
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Post by PhilBB Tue 10 Aug 2021, 3:04 pm

Brendan wrote:Or if we look at the private owned teams in Wales who have needed the WRU to pay 80% of 38 players wages.

There you go again, undermining your claim that you like facts.

The WRU doesn't pay 80% of the 38 player wages, of course. The clubs pay all 100% themselves.

If you liked facts, you'd understand the WRU has insisted that part of its payment for services under the PRA is used in that manner. That's all. EPS payments are the same.
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Post by PhilBB Tue 10 Aug 2021, 3:05 pm

Brendan wrote:if private owners are so great why do they need so much Union money, why not just get grants for stadium and pitch improvements like normal clubs. .

Which 'normal clubs' get 'just grants', Brendan?
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Post by PhilBB Tue 10 Aug 2021, 3:06 pm

Brendan wrote:What T1 union would fall part if the Private owners pulled the plug.

England, France, New Zealand, South Africa, Italy and Wales.

In turn, then so would Ireland and Scotland as the contagion would be too great. Broadcast deals would collapse, leading to the death of those T1 unions as their "lender of last resort" model sees the game's sole source of income going dry.
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Post by PhilBB Tue 10 Aug 2021, 3:09 pm

Brendan wrote:
As far as I am aware (and I could be wrong) but the only Union owned team to cease trading was the boarders.  It could be argued that the Force would have but for a private owner so we will count that too.

Borders.
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Post by PhilBB Tue 10 Aug 2021, 3:10 pm

Brendan wrote:
Warriors was a private owned team who ceased trading that was helped out by the Union. If the Union hadn't stepped in to bring it to an orderly conclusion it could have been a mid season mess.

Factless nonsense.

Celtic Warriors was to be singularly owned by Bridgend RFC until the WRU blocked that and demanded a free 50% for themselves. They then lied to Bridgend RFC upon the sale of Bridgend's 50% to the WRU.

Then, as a 100% WRU owned team, the Celtic Warriors were shut down.

So that's Borders and Celtic Warriors.
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Post by PhilBB Tue 10 Aug 2021, 3:12 pm

Brendan wrote:
As it is about Welsh teams (The thread incase I get accused of only talking about Wales), Regionalism showed the complete mess the private backed teams had got themselves into and if the WRU had not stepped in and made it happen how many of the 8 teams to form the Regions would have gone bust knowing what we know now how much debt there was being hidden from the public.  Of those 8 teams how many of them could afford to go on like they were without running into difficulties.

There was no debt being hidden from the public as all had published audited accounts. You've just accused 8 clubs of committing fraud. So much for your claimed love of 'facts', eh?

The WRU didn't step in, either, by the way. The clubs themselves drove the reduction in the number of professional teams as they realised there was insufficient money and talent in Wales to have so many professional teams.

You can't bang on about loving facts only to write such drivel on a subject you clearly know next to nothing about.
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Post by PhilBB Tue 10 Aug 2021, 3:13 pm

Brendan wrote:
Unions generally don't walk away from their own teams unless it is going to drag the Union down (such as the boarders).  When a private owner walks away there often isn't another private owner ready such as the cases above, or you get situations like Worcester and Ospreys unfold before they finally find a new backer.

Sorry, what 'situation' 'unfolded' at the Ospreys?
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Post by PhilBB Tue 10 Aug 2021, 3:14 pm

Brendan wrote:
I doubt the internationals is at saturation point.  

Sponsorship and TV revenue, at this stage, tends to disagree with you. As do CVC, judging by the rumoured changes they wish to make to the global international game.
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Post by PhilBB Tue 10 Aug 2021, 3:16 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:
Apart from the semantics what's the difference between a payment and funding?
Without the money that the clubs get from the unions - whatever you call it - there would be at best a dozen viable professional clubs in the whole of GB and NI - Leinster would be OK with the money they could generate in Dublin, maybe Ulster on a smaller scale, none of the Scottish teams, none of the Welsh teams and only the sugar daddy clubs in England - Saracens, Bath, etc. probably Tigers,Saints and Quins could keep going albeit in "much reduced" circumstances given they have a solid supporter base.

Funding is a gift with nothing expected in return. Payment is for a service already provided.

You're basically asking "what's the difference between a salary and me begging for a quid off a bloke at a train station?"

Leinster doesn't exist outside of the IRFU, so it doesn't "get" money from the Union. It is the Union.

You also seem to forget the Welsh clubs have their sugar daddies.
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Post by Intotouch Thu 09 Sep 2021, 10:55 am

PhiBB,
You ignored my point that about two years ago only Exeter out of all of the clubs in the premiership made a profit. If clubs are supposed to stand or fall based on their own values, as you say, then that suggests that no club should receive money from people or organisations to enable them to survive. You know very well that if pro rugby clubs tried to do this that the majority would fold because they cannot afford to keep going without receiving sugar daddy’s, union or government money on an occasional or annual basis. This is the reality of pro rugby in Europe. Now my knowledge is two years old so if this information is wrong now and all are making profits I’d be surprised but accept that this is possible.

I don’t think that there’s anything particularly wrong with individuals, governments or unions stepping in to help a club to survive. The basics of sport is that in most countries around the world governments and governing bodies and individuals help sport to survive and thrive. Why should rugby union be the sport where receiving financial help isn’t acceptable?

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Post by Welshmushroom Thu 09 Sep 2021, 4:08 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Funding is a gift with nothing expected in return. Payment is for a service already provided.

Actually Phil that statement is rarely true.  In most cases funding always has linked permutations.  For example funds towards research projects generally stipulate the funding uses.  Even generic things such as Crowd funding in recent years, has seen circumstances where the companies funded have been taken to court for not delivering on the companies funding goals for development by the funding investors.  Even in a sport situation funding is often given with the specific goals in place based on performance.  This is why for example the funding each region in Wales receives differing amounts of money based on performance and representation (which relates to player form).  

I'll also correct the payment bit for you. Payment is the transfer of money, goods, or services in exchange for goods and services in acceptable proportions that have been previously agreed upon by all parties involved. So basically a payment can relate to a wide number of things.

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Post by mikey_dragon Yesterday at 7:27 pm

Good god, our union trying to destroy the game again. Read the below via the WOL.

Welsh rugby chiefs propose giving some regions more than others in major change to create two tiers among Ospreys, Scarlets, Cardiff and Dragons

WRU chiefs have revealed they are considering a new funding model which would see certain regions pushed for success in Europe.

The finances of the four teams - Scarlets, Cardiff, Ospreys and Dragons - is a continuing subject for debate, particularly on the back of the challenges presented by the Covid 19 pandemic.


In the past, there has been talk about a possible two-tier funding model with either a 2+2 or 3+1 system in operation, providing certain regions with significantly enhanced resources to make them more competitive.

Now that concept seems to be back on the table.

WRU chief executive Steve Phillips confirmed as much during the last quarterly meeting between the governing bodies and the regional Joint Supporters Group.

Total payments from the Union to the four regions for services provided, notably access to international players, will be £23m this season and £23.5m for the 2022-23 campaign.


That pot is distributed on a weighted basis by the Professional Rugby Board, depending on the number of players each region has in Wayne Pivac’s elite squad and other factors.


At the meeting, which took place last month, Phillips was asked by Huw Jones of the CF10 Rugby Trust if this level of overall funding was sufficient to allow clubs to achieve their objectives in the United Rugby Championship and Europe.

The chief executive, who was formerly the Union’s finance director, said this was the best they could do.

However, he revealed there was an ongoing conversation about whether a specific number of clubs should be pushed for success.

Phillips said it was unrealistic to get all four teams into the Champions Cup, but that Wales definitely need one, if not two teams in there.

He gave Irish big guns Leinster as an example of how a single team is pushed by its home union for success in Europe.

Phillips said the number of Welsh teams pushed needed to be agreed, with reaching the latter stages of the Champions Cup being reliant on money and the quality of playing squads.

He said the distribution model would remain the same until PRB agreed to any changes, but added he was drafting a paper for their consideration for possible implementation in 2022-23.

He said changing the funding model was not something the WRU would do unilaterally.'

During the meeting, the Union’s head of digital and communications, Mark Killingley, cited the example of Leicester City winning the Premiership title in 2016, while having half the budget of other top-flight English football clubs, and also pointed to Connacht and the Scarlets winning the PRO12.

He then posed the question: “Why do you think money is so linked to ambition and is so fundamental to clubs?”

But Cathy Green, of the Ospreys Supporters Club, responded by saying Phillips talking about potentially funding one or two regions much higher than the others to achieve improved results indicated the WRU too must believe money is linked to success.

She added it was clear underfunded teams win the league or win in Europe far less than, for example, Leinster, saying the challenge was continuous success, which required money.

Phillips was also asked to provide an update on the £20m NatWest bank loan which the WRU took out to keep the pro game afloat, covering the shortfall in income caused by the Covid pandemic.

That money will have to be paid back by the four regions over the next four years.

The Union have talked about renegotiating the terms of the loan, extending it over a longer period, to lessen the financial burden on the pro teams.

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