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U20 Six Nations 2021

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Post by Cumbrian Thu 17 Jun 2021, 9:26 pm

First topic message reminder :

Thought it might good to have a place to discuss the tournament collectively, would be good to hear about players who we are less familiar with from other nations.

The games are being broadcast live on the iPlayer in the UK this weekend.

rose England  rose
FORWARDS
Harvey Beaton (Saracens)
Phil Brantingham (Newcastle Falcons)
Lucas Brooke (London Irish)
Arthur Clark (Gloucester Rugby)
Jack Clement (Gloucester Rugby)
Luke Green (London Irish)
Alex Groves (Bristol Bears)
Tarek Haffar (London Irish)
Lewis Holsey (Worcester Warriors)
Ethan Hunt (Gloucester Rugby)
Emeka Ilione (Leicester Tigers)
Nahum Merigan (Bath Rugby)
Ewan Richards (Bath Rugby)
Sam Riley (Harlequins)
Ollie Stonham (Saracens)
Harry Taylor (Gloucester Rugby)
Freddie Thomas (Gloucester Rugby)
Archie Vanes (Leicester Tigers)

BACKS
Charlie Atkinson (Wasps)
Seb Atkinson (Worcester Warriors)
Deago Bailey (Bristol Bears)
Orlando Bailey (Bath Rugby)
Jack Bates (Bristol Bears)
Louis Hillman-Cooper (Gloucester Rugby)
Dan Lancaster (Leeds Tykes)
Tom Litchfield (Northampton Saints)
Tommy Mathews (Northampton Saints)
Raffi Quirke (Sale Sharks)
Arthur Relton (Exeter Chiefs)
Tom Roebuck (Sale Sharks)
Fin Smith (Worcester Warriors)
Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers)


Braveheart Scotland   Braveheart

FORWARDS
Jamie Drummond* (Ayrshire Bulls)
Patrick Harrison* (Southern Knights/Edinburgh Rugby)
Duncan Hood* (Heriot’s Blues)
Tom Banatvala (Durham University)
Michael Jones* (Boroughmuir Bears)
Corey Bowker (Leeds Beckett University)
George Breese* (Stirling Wolves)
Olly Frostick (Ealing Trailfinders)
Cole Lamberton* (Watsonians Rugby/Edinburgh Rugby)
Alex Samuel* (Stirling County/Glasgow Warriors) CAPATIN
Max Williamson* (Stirling County/Glasgow Warriors)
Euan Ferrie (Glasgow Hawks)
Harri Morris (Southern Knights)
Rhys Tait (Southern Knights)
Ollie Leatherbarrow (Exeter University)
Rory Jackson* (Ayrshire Bulls/Glasgow Warriors)
Ben Muncaster* (Watsonians Rugby/Edinburgh Rugby)
Archie Smeaton (Cambridge University)

BACKS
Ethan McVicker (Melrose Rugby)
Murray Redpath (Newcastle University)
Cameron Scott* (Southern Knights/Edinburgh Rugby)
Euan Cunningham* (Stirling County/Glasgow Warriors)
Christian Townsend* (Ayrshire Bulls)
Thomas Glendinning* (Glasgow Hawks)
Scott King* (Heriot’s Rugby/Edinburgh Rugby)
Michael Gray* (Boroughmuir Bears/Glasgow Warriors)
Elliot Gourlay (Sale Sharks)
Finlay Callaghan* (Ayrshire Bulls/Glasgow Warriors)
Adam Scott * (GHA)
Ollie Melville* (Boroughmuir Bears/Glasgow Warriors)
Harry Paterson* (Heriot’s Rugby/Edinburgh Rugby)
Ross McKnight* (Stirling County)


Leprechaun Ireland  Leprechaun

Forwards:

George Saunderson (Sullivan Upper School/Queen’s University Belfast RFC/Ulster)
Jack Boyle (St Michael’s College/UCD RFC/Leinster)
Temi Asewunmi Lasisi (CBS Enniscorthy/Lansdowne FC/Leinster)
Mark Donnelly (CBC Cork/Garryowen RFC/Munster)
Eoin de Buitléar (Scoil Chuimsitheach Chiáran/An Ghaeltacht/Corinthians RFC/Connacht)
Lee Barron (St Michael’s College/Dublin University FC/Leinster)
Ronan Loughnane (Cistercian College Roscrea/UCD RFC/Leinster)
Sam Illo (Wesley College/Old Wesley RFC/Leinster)
Darragh Murray (Colaiste Chiaran/Buccaneers RFC/Connacht)
Harry Sheridan (Sullivan Upper School/Dublin University FC/Ulster)
Mark Morrisey (Blackrock College/UCD RFC/Leinster)
Alex Soroka (Belvedere College/Clontarf RFC/Leinster)
Oisin McCormack (Garbally College/Buccaneers RFC/Connacht)
Alex Kendellen (PBC Cork/UCC RFC/Munster)(Captain)
Reuben Crothers (Wallace High School/Ballynahinch RFC/Ulster)
Donnacha Byrne (Summerhill College/Sligo RFC/Connacht)
Jack Kelleher (PBC Cork/UCC RFC/Munster)
Daniel Okeke (Ard Scoil Ris/Shannon RFC/Munster)
Liam Bishop (Trent College/Nottingham University/IQ Rugby)

Backs:

Conor McKee (Sullivan Upper School/Queen’s University Belfast RFC/Ulster)
Nathan Doak (Wallace High School/Banbridge RFC/Ulster)
Ben Murphy (Presentation College Bray/Old Wesley RFC/Leinster)
Tim Corkery (St Kieran’s College, Kilkenny/UCD RFC/Leinster)
James Humphreys (Dean Close School/Queen’s University Belfast RFC/Ulster)
Cathal Forde (Colaiste Iognaid/Corinthians RFC/Connacht)
Ben Carson (Wallace High School/Banbridge RFC/Ulster)
Shane Jennings (Garbally College/Buccaneers RFC/Connacht)
Ben Moxham (Larne High School/Ballymena RFC/Ulster)
Conor Rankin (Campbell College Belfast/Ballynahinch RFC/Ulster)
Chay Mullins (SGC Filton/Bristol Bears/IQ Rugby)
Josh O’Connor (St Peter’s College/UCD RFC/Leinster)
Jamie Osborne (Naas CBS/Naas RFC/Leinster)
Chris Cosgrave (St Michael’s College/UCD RFC/Leinster)
Jude Postlethwaite (RBAI/Banbridge RFC/Ulster).


Wales Wales Wales

Forwards:
Garyn Phillips (Ospreys)
Theo Bavaqua (Cardiff Blues)
Cameron Jones (Ospreys)
Efan Daniel (Cardiff Blues)
Ollie Burrows (Exeter Chiefs)
Connor Chapman (Dragons)
Nathan Evans (Cardiff Blues)
Lewys Jones (USON Nevers)
Zak Giannini (Llanelli Wanderers)
Joe Peard (Dragons)
James Fender (Ospreys)
Dafydd Jenkins (Exeter Chiefs)
Rhys Thomas (Ospreys/Aberavon)
Alex Mann (Capt – Cardiff Blues)
Christ Tshiunza (Exeter Chiefs)
Harri Deaves (Ospreys)
Tristan Davies (Ospreys)
Carwyn Tuipulotu (Scarlets)
Evan Lloyd (Cardiff Blues)

Backs:
Jacob Beetham (Cardiff Blues)
Morgan Richards (Dragons/Pontypridd)
Carrick McDonnough (Dragons)
Eddie James (Scarlets)
Tom Florence (Ospreys)
Joe Hawkins (Ospreys)
Ioan Evans (Pontypridd)
Daniel John (Exeter Chiefs)
Sam Costelow (Scarlets)
Will Reed (Dragons)
Ben Burnell (Cardiff Blues)
Harri Williams (Scarlets)
Ethan Lloyd (Cardiff Blues)
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Post by LordDowlais Thu 08 Jul 2021, 9:16 am

The Oracle wrote:Wales have not been very good at U20 level for a few years now. Not sure why. Maybe the coaching, as Mikey alludes to earlier in the thread. We’ve got some decent players but just don’t seem at the races for the last few years.

You are taking things into consideration.

Wales, for various reasons play 17 and 18 year olds in their U20's team, everyone else uses players who are actually 20 years old, at that age, two or three years more development makes a massive difference.

Look at the Welsh squad that played Canada on Saturday, and perhaps will play Argentina this Saturday and check how many would qualify for the U20's. Yes I get it perhaps the coaching is not up to scratch, but there are a lot of other reasons to factor into it as well.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 08 Jul 2021, 9:29 am

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Wales have not been very good at U20 level for a few years now. Not sure why. Maybe the coaching, as Mikey alludes to earlier in the thread. We’ve got some decent players but just don’t seem at the races for the last few years.

You are taking things into consideration.

Wales, for various reasons play 17 and 18 year olds in their U20's team, everyone else uses players who are actually 20 years old, at that age, two or three years more development makes a massive difference.

Look at the Welsh squad that played Canada on Saturday, and perhaps will play Argentina this Saturday and check how many would qualify for the U20's. Yes I get it perhaps the coaching is not up to scratch, but there are a lot of other reasons to factor into it as well.

2 at most I think. Unless rugby have the same as football where you can play 3 overage players.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 08 Jul 2021, 9:45 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Wales have not been very good at U20 level for a few years now. Not sure why. Maybe the coaching, as Mikey alludes to earlier in the thread. We’ve got some decent players but just don’t seem at the races for the last few years.

You are taking things into consideration.

Wales, for various reasons play 17 and 18 year olds in their U20's team, everyone else uses players who are actually 20 years old, at that age, two or three years more development makes a massive difference.

Look at the Welsh squad that played Canada on Saturday, and perhaps will play Argentina this Saturday and check how many would qualify for the U20's. Yes I get it perhaps the coaching is not up to scratch, but there are a lot of other reasons to factor into it as well.

2 at most I think. Unless rugby have the same as football where you can play 3 overage players.

I think rugby has tighter cut offs, no over age players as that is dangerous. 

None of Whitcombe, Steward or Martin were considered for the under 20s with the first two turning 20 in Nov/Dec time ( if I remember rightly). Steward wore 15 for England last weekend and hopefully this weekend. There were rumours Martin might come in as an injury replacement for the under 20s but hasn't, he only turned 20 last month. All three have made multiple appearances for Tigers and it seems they've been left out to give game time to players who got less game time for their clubs. Other than Steward of course. Dan Kelly and Max Ojomoh would have both been eligible for England under 20s also if not with the England senior team.

There's normally a mix within the squads. JVP played for England under 20s at 18, 19 and now captains at 20. Martin was included in the under 20s squad at 18 (withdrew with injury) but was still called up. In the England squad this time round there's a fair number that also played last year in Grove, Beaton, Clement, Roebuck, Riley and starting flyhalf Finn Smith will be eligible next year as well.

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Post by mikey_dragon Thu 08 Jul 2021, 9:49 am

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Wales have not been very good at U20 level for a few years now. Not sure why. Maybe the coaching, as Mikey alludes to earlier in the thread. We’ve got some decent players but just don’t seem at the races for the last few years.

You are taking things into consideration.

Wales, for various reasons play 17 and 18 year olds in their U20's team, everyone else uses players who are actually 20 years old, at that age, two or three years more development makes a massive difference.

Look at the Welsh squad that played Canada on Saturday, and perhaps will play Argentina this Saturday and check how many would qualify for the U20's. Yes I get it perhaps the coaching is not up to scratch, but there are a lot of other reasons to factor into it as well.

This is a big misconception. So annoying when fans come out with poor excuses, especially exaggerated ones like all this.

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Post by The Oracle Thu 08 Jul 2021, 9:50 am

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Wales have not been very good at U20 level for a few years now. Not sure why. Maybe the coaching, as Mikey alludes to earlier in the thread. We’ve got some decent players but just don’t seem at the races for the last few years.

You are taking things into consideration.

Wales, for various reasons play 17 and 18 year olds in their U20's team, everyone else uses players who are actually 20 years old, at that age, two or three years more development makes a massive difference.

Look at the Welsh squad that played Canada on Saturday, and perhaps will play Argentina this Saturday and check how many would qualify for the U20's. Yes I get it perhaps the coaching is not up to scratch, but there are a lot of other reasons to factor into it as well.

I just looked at Wales v Canada and there were none! Unless I’m missing something? Who was 20 years old or under?
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Post by mikey_dragon Thu 08 Jul 2021, 9:53 am

I think Carter (or not), LRZ and Ioan Lloyd can still play U20s rugby. Not that it would make a lot of difference if they did. Gareth Williams was as bad a coach at this level, and they've recently rewarded him with a promotion. Only in Wales do you see this amateur stuff.

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Post by The Oracle Thu 08 Jul 2021, 9:54 am

For me one of the issues is that we don’t seem to produce the size of player of some of the bigger teams such as England so can’t compete on the power game. We have some big guys but not as many, and don’t produce them by that age as frequently. We used to then be able to compete on skills and give a team of big guys the run around. However, over the past few years we don’t seem as skilful either so then struggle against the big power teams AND some of the other teams such as Italy.
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Post by The Oracle Thu 08 Jul 2021, 9:56 am

mikey_dragon wrote:I think Carter (or not), LRZ and Ioan Lloyd can still play U20s rugby. Not that it would make a lot of difference if they did. Gareth Williams was as bad a coach at this level, and they've recently rewarded him with a promotion. Only in Wales do you see this amateur stuff.

Apologies, I missed Carter. Yes he’s 20. I only looked at the team vs Canada and LZR and Lloyd did not feature so I make it just 1.
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Post by mikey_dragon Thu 08 Jul 2021, 10:01 am

The Oracle wrote:For me one of the issues is that we don’t seem to produce the size of player of some of the bigger teams such as England so can’t compete on the power game. We have some big guys but not as many, and don’t produce them by that age as frequently. We used to then be able to compete on skills and give a team of big guys the run around. However, over the past few years we don’t seem as skilful either so then struggle against the big power teams AND some of the other teams such as Italy.

Last year they looked small in the front 5. I think we're big up front this year. We have a couple 6'7 and 120-125kg locks. Phillips at LH is a big lump and has already looked good at pro level, so I've no doubt he will get a pro contract. For me there are a bunch of decent players but they are not playing well enough. The backs especially over the last few years just haven't played very well together.

The Oracle wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:I think Carter (or not), LRZ and Ioan Lloyd can still play U20s rugby. Not that it would make a lot of difference if they did. Gareth Williams was as bad a coach at this level, and they've recently rewarded him with a promotion. Only in Wales do you see this amateur stuff.

Apologies, I missed Carter. Yes he’s 20. I only looked at the team vs Canada and LZR and Lloyd did not feature so I make it just 1.

I was just saying. I'm not quite sure what his Lordships point was tbh.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 08 Jul 2021, 10:08 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Wales have not been very good at U20 level for a few years now. Not sure why. Maybe the coaching, as Mikey alludes to earlier in the thread. We’ve got some decent players but just don’t seem at the races for the last few years.

You are taking things into consideration.

Wales, for various reasons play 17 and 18 year olds in their U20's team, everyone else uses players who are actually 20 years old, at that age, two or three years more development makes a massive difference.

Look at the Welsh squad that played Canada on Saturday, and perhaps will play Argentina this Saturday and check how many would qualify for the U20's. Yes I get it perhaps the coaching is not up to scratch, but there are a lot of other reasons to factor into it as well.

This is a big misconception. So annoying when fans come out with poor excuses, especially exaggerated ones like all this.

Prove me wrong then.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 08 Jul 2021, 10:09 am

The Oracle wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:I think Carter (or not), LRZ and Ioan Lloyd can still play U20s rugby. Not that it would make a lot of difference if they did. Gareth Williams was as bad a coach at this level, and they've recently rewarded him with a promotion. Only in Wales do you see this amateur stuff.

Apologies, I missed Carter. Yes he’s 20. I only looked at the team vs Canada and LZR and Lloyd did not feature so I make it just 1.

I didnt say team, I said squad, look at the squad. OK

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Post by The Oracle Thu 08 Jul 2021, 10:11 am

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:I think Carter (or not), LRZ and Ioan Lloyd can still play U20s rugby. Not that it would make a lot of difference if they did. Gareth Williams was as bad a coach at this level, and they've recently rewarded him with a promotion. Only in Wales do you see this amateur stuff.

Apologies, I missed Carter. Yes he’s 20. I only looked at the team vs Canada and LZR and Lloyd did not feature so I make it just 1.

I didnt say team, I said squad, look at the squad. OK

I did. Name the other player apart from Ben Carter. I couldn’t see anyone. I did check wiki. Here’s the squad vs Canada:

Wales: Leigh Halfpenny; Jonah Holmes, Willis Halaholo, Jonathan Davies, Tom Rogers; Callum Sheedy, Tomos Williams; Nicky Smith, Elliot Dee, Dillon Lewis, Ben Carter, Will Rowlands, Ross Moriarty, James Botham, Aaron Wainwright.
Replacements: Ryan Elias, Gareth Thomas, Leon Brown, Josh Turnbull, Taine Basham, Kieran Hardy, Ben Thomas, Nick Tompkins.
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Post by LordDowlais Thu 08 Jul 2021, 10:15 am

Look I do not know all their ages, but wouldnt the following players qualify for the U20's :-

Taine Basham
Ben Carter
Ioan Lloyd
Tom Rogers
Ben Thomas

And we have Lewis Rhys Zammit away with the Lions.

Here is the U20 squad, go and check their ages:-

https://www.wru.wales/fixtures-and-teams/teams/wales-u20/

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 08 Jul 2021, 10:15 am

Full squad:

Rhodri Jones (Ospreys) (20 Caps), Nicky Smith (Ospreys) (39 Caps), Gareth Thomas (Ospreys) (*Uncapped), Elliot Dee (Dragons) (37 Caps), Ryan Elias (Scarlets) (17 Caps), Sam Parry (Ospreys) (4 Caps), Leon Brown (Dragons) (17 Caps), Tomas Francis (Exeter Chiefs) (57 Caps), Dillon Lewis (Cardiff Rugby) (28 Caps), Adam Beard (Ospreys) (25 Caps), Ben Carter (Dragons) (*Uncapped), Cory Hill (Cardiff Rugby) (32 Caps), Will Rowlands (Wasps) (7 Caps), Taine Basham (Dragons) (*Uncapped), James Botham (Cardiff Rugby) (6 Caps), Ross Moriarty (Dragons) (45 Caps), Josh Navidi (Cardiff Rugby) (28 Caps), Josh Turnbull (Cardiff Rugby) (10 Caps), Aaron Wainwright (Dragons) (29 Caps)

BACKS (15): Kieran Hardy (Scarlets) (4 Caps), Tomos Williams (Cardiff Rugby) (22 Caps), Rhodri Williams (Dragons) (3 Caps), Callum Sheedy (Bristol Bears) (9 Caps), Jarrod Evans (Cardiff Rugby) (6 Caps), Jonathan Davies (Scarlets) (88 Caps) (CAPT), Willis Halaholo (Cardiff Rugby) (4 Caps), Nick Tompkins (Saracens) (10 Caps), Ben Thomas (Cardiff Rugby) (*Uncapped), Hallam Amos (Cardiff Rugby) (23 Caps), Leigh Halfpenny (Scarlets) (95 Caps), Jonah Holmes (Dragons) (5 Caps), Owen Lane (Cardiff Rugby) (2 Caps), Ioan Lloyd (Bristol Bears) (2 Caps), Tom Rogers (Scarlets) (*Uncapped)


2 tops?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 08 Jul 2021, 10:16 am

LordDowlais wrote:Look I do not know all their ages, but wouldnt the following players qualify for the U20's :-

Taine Basham
Ben Carter
Ioan Lloyd
Tom Rogers
Ben Thomas

And we have Lewis Rhys Zammit away with the Lions.

Here is the U20 squad, go and check their ages:-

https://www.wru.wales/fixtures-and-teams/teams/wales-u20/

21.
20.
20.
22.
22.

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Post by The Oracle Thu 08 Jul 2021, 10:18 am

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Wales have not been very good at U20 level for a few years now. Not sure why. Maybe the coaching, as Mikey alludes to earlier in the thread. We’ve got some decent players but just don’t seem at the races for the last few years.

You are taking things into consideration.

Wales, for various reasons play 17 and 18 year olds in their U20's team, everyone else uses players who are actually 20 years old, at that age, two or three years more development makes a massive difference.

Look at the Welsh squad that played Canada on Saturday, and perhaps will play Argentina this Saturday and check how many would qualify for the U20's. Yes I get it perhaps the coaching is not up to scratch, but there are a lot of other reasons to factor into it as well.

LD, you wrote the bit above. So I checked it because I was interested. You can’t then move the goalposts! The squad for Canada is below and there was 1 (Carter). If you meant the whole development squad for the summer minus the Lions players and injuries you should have said that!
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 08 Jul 2021, 10:19 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Wales have not been very good at U20 level for a few years now. Not sure why. Maybe the coaching, as Mikey alludes to earlier in the thread. We’ve got some decent players but just don’t seem at the races for the last few years.

You are taking things into consideration.

Wales, for various reasons play 17 and 18 year olds in their U20's team, everyone else uses players who are actually 20 years old, at that age, two or three years more development makes a massive difference.

Look at the Welsh squad that played Canada on Saturday, and perhaps will play Argentina this Saturday and check how many would qualify for the U20's. Yes I get it perhaps the coaching is not up to scratch, but there are a lot of other reasons to factor into it as well.

2 at most I think. Unless rugby have the same as football where you can play 3 overage players.

I think rugby has tighter cut offs, no over age players as that is dangerous. 

None of Whitcombe, Steward or Martin were considered for the under 20s with the first two turning 20 in Nov/Dec time ( if I remember rightly). Steward wore 15 for England last weekend and hopefully this weekend. There were rumours Martin might come in as an injury replacement for the under 20s but hasn't, he only turned 20 last month. All three have made multiple appearances for Tigers and it seems they've been left out to give game time to players who got less game time for their clubs. Other than Steward of course. Dan Kelly and Max Ojomoh would have both been eligible for England under 20s also if not with the England senior team.

There's normally a mix within the squads. JVP played for England under 20s at 18, 19 and now captains at 20. Martin was included in the under 20s squad at 18 (withdrew with injury) but was still called up. In the England squad this time round there's a fair number that also played last year in Grove, Beaton, Clement, Roebuck, Riley and starting flyhalf Finn Smith will be eligible next year as well.

Pretty rare as well for a few to come through to international level at the same time. Could well happen for this squad like, I'm drawn to Groves, van Poortvliet and the mystifying missing Quirke (must be injured). I prefer to have a real top level guy come through than the guys who at international level (although still obviously very good rugby players) make up the numbers, those 3 could be special if they continue their trajectory.

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Post by Poorfour Thu 08 Jul 2021, 10:27 am

Mr Bounce wrote:Sam Riley and Jack Clement look like really good long term prospects. Van Poortvliet too.

And bear in mind that Fin Baxter - who was MOTM - was playing out of position. Until very recently, he's been a tighthead. Quins may have found their long term replacement for Joe Marler, in position if not personality.
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Post by LordDowlais Thu 08 Jul 2021, 10:38 am

The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Wales have not been very good at U20 level for a few years now. Not sure why. Maybe the coaching, as Mikey alludes to earlier in the thread. We’ve got some decent players but just don’t seem at the races for the last few years.

You are taking things into consideration.

Wales, for various reasons play 17 and 18 year olds in their U20's team, everyone else uses players who are actually 20 years old, at that age, two or three years more development makes a massive difference.

Look at the Welsh squad that played Canada on Saturday, and perhaps will play Argentina this Saturday and check how many would qualify for the U20's. Yes I get it perhaps the coaching is not up to scratch, but there are a lot of other reasons to factor into it as well.

LD, you wrote the bit above. So I checked it because I was interested. You can’t then move the goalposts! The squad for Canada is below and there was 1 (Carter). If you meant the whole development squad for the summer minus the Lions players and injuries you should have said that!

Sorry, I meant the Welsh squad, not team. I can see how I have confused you, my fault. thumbsup

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Post by mikey_dragon Thu 08 Jul 2021, 11:14 am

LordDowlais wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Wales have not been very good at U20 level for a few years now. Not sure why. Maybe the coaching, as Mikey alludes to earlier in the thread. We’ve got some decent players but just don’t seem at the races for the last few years.

You are taking things into consideration.

Wales, for various reasons play 17 and 18 year olds in their U20's team, everyone else uses players who are actually 20 years old, at that age, two or three years more development makes a massive difference.

Look at the Welsh squad that played Canada on Saturday, and perhaps will play Argentina this Saturday and check how many would qualify for the U20's. Yes I get it perhaps the coaching is not up to scratch, but there are a lot of other reasons to factor into it as well.

This is a big misconception. So annoying when fans come out with poor excuses, especially exaggerated ones like all this.

Prove me wrong then.

Well given what you followed up with since this, we know you've got it wrong. There might be one 18 year old in the squad too, not sure where you're getting the rest from.

As I said I just find the poor excuses from people a little irritating, and the U20s should be taken more seriously. There is no excuse for Wales U20 being this poor the last few years.

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Post by Cumbrian Thu 08 Jul 2021, 12:08 pm

Poorfour wrote:
Mr Bounce wrote:Sam Riley and Jack Clement look like really good long term prospects. Van Poortvliet too.

And bear in mind that Fin Baxter - who was MOTM - was playing out of position. Until very recently, he's been a tighthead. Quins may have found their long term replacement for Joe Marler, in position if not personality.

Quins have got the bones of a very talented and young squad coming through. Players like Baxter, Riley, Kenningham, Evans and Dombrandt should be mainstays of your pack for years to come.

It is quite heartening from an English rugby follower's point of view that a number of clubs seem to be renewing their squads with talented young EQPs. Leicester spring to mind with Heyes, Martin, Illione, van Poortfliet and Steward coming through together.

Perhaps I'm reading too much into it, but there feels to be something positive in the air at the moment.


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Post by RiscaGame Thu 08 Jul 2021, 12:28 pm

Looking forward to seeing Lewis Rhys Zammit play, as I must admit I have never heard of him.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 08 Jul 2021, 12:52 pm

Look out, the spelling police are here. Very Happy

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 08 Jul 2021, 7:14 pm

Cumbrian wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
Mr Bounce wrote:Sam Riley and Jack Clement look like really good long term prospects. Van Poortvliet too.

And bear in mind that Fin Baxter - who was MOTM - was playing out of position. Until very recently, he's been a tighthead. Quins may have found their long term replacement for Joe Marler, in position if not personality.

Quins have got the bones of a very talented and young squad coming through.  Players like Baxter, Riley, Kenningham, Evans and Dombrandt should be mainstays of your pack for years to come.  

It is quite heartening from an English rugby follower's point of view that a number of clubs seem to be renewing their squads with talented young EQPs.  Leicester spring to mind with Heyes, Martin, Illione, van Poortfliet and Steward coming through together.

Perhaps I'm reading too much into it, but there feels to be something positive in the air at the moment.

As a Tigers fan it is very satisfactory how we've rebuilt the academy. For years with withered under Cockerill and the fat Aussie who shall not be named. Now we have some serious talent, currently aged under 23, EQ, from the academy we have;

1. Whitcombe - previous England under 20s surprised he's not been selected this time
2. Vanes - current England under 20
3. Heyes - England first team
4. Henderson - did have a trial with the academy before leaving and then coming back not capped yet by Scotland
5. Chessum - England under 20s last year
6. Martin - England training squad
7. Reffell - Wales under 20s captain previously 
8. Thom Smith - academy captain, jury is out on him
9. JVP - England under 20s captain
10. Could have been Costelow blooming WRU
11. Browning - man of the match performances for Notts on loan last season England age grade
12. Kelly - England training squad though technically development squad not academy
13. N/A
14. Owolfela - back from a successful loan to the Force
15. Steward - England first team

All bar Vanes and Browning have played in the Prem and it seems like it's a similar story at a lot of Prem clubs at the minute. Saints are churning them out, so are Quins, Sale and Exeter. Falcons are producing some massive front rowers and a conveyor belt of wingers it goes on. The academy structure is in a very healthy shape across England at the minute. The England under 20s should be a strong side currently, looking forward to seeing these guys come through into first teams over the next couple of years.

For those that like a look to what could be in the squad in the next yearish at tighthead;

 https://mobile.twitter.com/nemani_nadolo/status/1314987489896157184

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Post by profitius Thu 08 Jul 2021, 10:26 pm

To summarize what I've seen so far.

England by far the best side. Huge pack and plenty of depth to call on.

France look the next best. Coming into some form now. Next match against ireland will give us a clearer picture.

Ireland blowing hot and cold. Could easily have lost to italy. Lost easily to England and Scotland were on top for a large part of that game.

Italy look decent at this level. Good to see them continuing to develop good players. Should have beaten France, could have beaten ireland.

Wales are missing their best players. They've been bad without them though.

Scotland have been easily the worst. Getting demolished by Italy should get the alarm bells ringing in Scottish rugby. Only a matter of time until that starts to translate to the senior teams.


It should be noted that covid has caused havoc with the preparations.
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Post by lostinwales Thu 08 Jul 2021, 11:26 pm

The saving grace at this level is that you don't need many players to make it. In Leatherbarrows hands the tradition of mad and very effective scottish flankers is probably safe. There are also the scottish 2nd rows who are huge but don't have the muscle some of the other players have yet, but that can change.

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Post by Heaf Tue 13 Jul 2021, 3:56 pm

England take the Grand Slam after making hard work of it against Italy who have done well this year ...

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Post by Cumbrian Tue 13 Jul 2021, 7:11 pm

Grand slam with five bonus points, have wondered what to call this since they introduced BPs onto the Six Nations. A Golden Slam maybe? (Or something less lame).
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Post by lostinwales Tue 13 Jul 2021, 7:19 pm

Just watched the England game. They did well to take the win, because for once their pack were not able to steamroller the Italians (who actually did their fare share of steamrolling) and the backs, although there are some decent individuals, looked disjointed. Italy have a very good 13 who got injured last game. I do wonder how much difference having even one more decent back would of had.

Fin Smith is such a step above the starting 10 they could be playing different games.

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Post by The Oracle Tue 13 Jul 2021, 7:51 pm

Cumbrian wrote:Grand slam with five bonus points, have wondered what to call this since they introduced BPs onto the Six Nations. A Golden Slam maybe? (Or something less lame).

A Walkover!
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Post by lostinwales Tue 13 Jul 2021, 10:22 pm

Despite a red card for Wales' Harri Deaves ('contact with face') early in the 2nd half Scotland lose to end with an 0-5 record. Looked like a frantic and error strewn match where individual brilliance from the Welsh and appalling handling by the Scots combined to leave Wales on top. Very little between the teams for the 1st half.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 14 Jul 2021, 7:52 am

lostinwales wrote:
Fin Smith is such a step above the starting 10 they could be playing different games.

If I remember rightly Finn Smith has another year of eligibility yet as well. Tommy Matthews who started the game looked good off the bench last game, attacked the line well. I don't think Matthews will hit the same heights as Smith, Matthews is also signed up for Hartbury for next season having just left Saints having also been at Glaws and LI previously. Very odd that no Prem team were keen to draft him in.

Finn Smith should get some more game time for Wuss this season and with Williams and Heinz joining Wuss could easily give them an ideal 9 and 12 to play either side of him.

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Post by lostinwales Wed 14 Jul 2021, 10:25 am

Smith took a knock vs Wales and I figured they also wanted to get more of the squad on the pitch, but the difference when they brought him on was very noticable.

I don't think Matthews was bad as such, but we did look very one dimensional. As far as I know we played the same centre combo all the way through, and although Lancaster was very good vs France and Bates scored a fine try vs Italy they haven't offered a great deal. In contrast there seems to be some decent talent in the back 3.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 14 Jul 2021, 3:48 pm

Kelly and Ojomoh could have been involved of they weren't with the first team. A little surprised Will Joseph was selected, must have been injured. Any of those three would have injected some greater midfield quality.

JVP England captain and virtual ever present wins player of the tournament. I suspect we'll see him wearing the red rose a fair bit in the coming years.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 14 Jul 2021, 4:24 pm

its interesting...whats more valuable to a young player....

A U20 world cup tournament...or a Senior Camp for 2 games missing a lot of senior players?

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 14 Jul 2021, 4:27 pm

Apparently Phil Brantingham was not available for the end games due to a knee injury...i really hope its not a serious one.

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Post by Poorfour Wed 14 Jul 2021, 4:29 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:its interesting...whats more valuable to a young player....

A U20 world cup tournament...or a Senior Camp for 2 games missing a lot of senior players?

I think it depends on the player, how ready they are to break through and whether there's space opening up in the squad. An interesting test case will be Kenningham, who didn't get to play because he'd been in close contact with someone who tested positive. Arguably, he'd have had more fun with the U20s, but if Eddie likes the cut of his jib...
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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 14 Jul 2021, 4:54 pm

Kenningham at 21 since November would have been too old for selection I believe. The under 20 squad were short of an openside option.

I think for the likes of Kelly the senior squad is probably more beneficial. You get to work with players like Lawrence and Slade that are regulars in the England squad and get to learn from them. We saw Martin go with England during the 6N and there were videos of Curry doing some work with him developing his carrying and Eddie focused on his tackling. We saw an improved George Martin come back after the 6N so you hope the young guns that went and didn't get the most game time learnt something from the senior guys around them.

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Post by Margin_Walker Wed 14 Jul 2021, 9:39 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:Kelly and Ojomoh could have been involved of they weren't with the first team. A little surprised Will Joseph was selected, must have been injured. Any of those three would have injected some greater midfield quality.

JVP England captain and virtual ever present wins player of the tournament. I suspect we'll see him wearing the red rose a fair bit in the coming years.

Will Joseph would likely have been involved. Was in the EPS, but he's been out with a long term injury.

He's eligible next year though (he's still 18), so will likely make an appearance then.

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Post by lostinwales Wed 14 Jul 2021, 9:58 pm

Cokanasinga jnr was used as an impact sub during the early matches but wasn't in the squad for at least the last one. He's not built on the same scale as his brother but still offers impact.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 14 Jul 2021, 10:52 pm

lostinwales wrote:Cokanasinga jnr was used as an impact sub during the early matches but wasn't in the squad for at least the last one. He's not built on the same scale as his brother but still offers impact.

He also looked poor off the bench. I was interested to see what he'd do and sort of expected him to rip it up but he was largely ineffectual.

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Post by Margin_Walker Wed 14 Jul 2021, 11:48 pm

Cokanasiga was an unused sub in the last game.

He could go either way as a player. Seen him make some real holes in an opposition midfield, but definitely lacks finesse at the moment and is prone to the odd error.

Would have been good to see him get a start to offer something a bit different as the England midfield were pretty average, but Dickens seemed to know the team he wanted and make very few changes. Can't argue with the end result.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 15 Jul 2021, 8:26 am

Yeah it wasn't a good set of midfield options this year. Selection was interesting as the front row rotated regularly, there was some moving around in the backrow and back three but second row and midfield never changed. Ditto JVP though he was captain and generally excellent.

Lancaster and Bates were very much the go to pairing though I don't see anything to suggest Bates is about to make a splash in the Saints team next season (he might still develop). Lancaster looks like he has something about him but the speed of the game seemed to leave him behind at times, he does play for Yorkshire still so it is maybe the time for him to take a step or two up and get some higher level experience.

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