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Stormers v British & Irish Lions - 17/7/21 - 17:00 ko.

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Stormers v British & Irish Lions - 17/7/21 - 17:00 ko. Empty Stormers v British & Irish Lions - 17/7/21 - 17:00 ko.

Post by TightHEAD Thu 15 Jul 2021, 11:41 am

Smith Starts at 10


DHL STORMERS v THE BRITISH & IRISH LIONS

Stuart Hogg – captain (Exeter Chiefs, Scotland) #783
Josh Adams (Cardiff Rugby, Wales) #836
Elliot Daly (Saracens, England) #822
Robbie Henshaw (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #824
Duhan van der Merwe (Worcester Warriors, Scotland) #841
Marcus Smith (Harlequins, England)
Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors, Scotland) #843
Rory Sutherland (Worcester Warriors, Scotland) #840
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, England) #851
Tadhg Furlong (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #818
Adam Beard (Ospreys, Wales) #852
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, England) #845
Tadhg Beirne (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #838
Hamish Watson (Edinburgh Rugby, Scotland) #847
Jack Conan (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #839

Replacements:

Jamie George (Saracens, England) #819
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, England) #787
Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors, Scotland) #848
Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys, Wales) #761
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs, England) #849
Gareth Davies (Scarlets, Wales) #850
Chris Harris (Gloucester Rugby, Scotland) #844
Louis Rees-Zammit (Gloucester Rugby, Wales) #846

Stormers

15 Sergeal Petersen, 14 Seabelo Senatla, 13 Rikus Pretorius, 12 Dan du Plessis, 11 Edwill van der Merwe, 10 Tim Swiel, 9 Godlen Masimla, 8 Evan Roos, 7 Johan du Toit, 6 Nama Xaba, 5 JD Schickerling, 4 Ernst van Rhyn (captain), 3 Neethling Fouche, 2 JJ Kotze, 1 Leon Lyons

Substitutes (from): 16 Andre-Hugo Venter, 17 Kwenzo Blose, 18 Sazi Sandi, 19 Justin Basson, 20 Marcel Theunissen, 21 Thomas Bursey, 22 Abner van Reenen, 23 Juan de Jongh, 24 Lee-Marvin Mazibuko, 25 Niel Otto, 26 Leolin Zas, 27 Cornel Smit


Saturday 17 July 2021

Cape Town Stadium, Cape Town

Kick-off: 5pm (BST)


Last edited by TightHEAD on Fri 16 Jul 2021, 9:24 am; edited 2 times in total
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Post by TightHEAD Thu 15 Jul 2021, 11:46 am

Great to see AWJ on the bench

What a man, player, leader

He is a Machine
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 15 Jul 2021, 11:49 am

Glad to see Smith gets Price. The best scrum half on tour so far will give him a bit more time on the ball.

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Post by MichaelT Thu 15 Jul 2021, 11:54 am

Glad Hogg and Henshaw are back. Their form coming into the tour was top class. Hope the break hasn't affected them too much.

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Post by BamBam Thu 15 Jul 2021, 11:55 am

Smith-Henshaw-Daly could be a very good midfield. Are the Stormers the best of the provincial sides?

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Post by Old Man Thu 15 Jul 2021, 12:06 pm

No, Stormers are not. They are a bit more set piece orientated than the Sharks, but about on par with them

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Post by geoff999rugby Thu 15 Jul 2021, 12:10 pm

No Bulls are the best, the Lions are the worst and not much between the other two.
Here is the Rainbow Cup standings.

Vodacom Bulls 6 5 1 0 117 66 25
DHL Stormers 6 3 3 0 143 -6 17
Cell C Sharks 6 3 3 0 179 -26 16
Emirates Lions 6 1 5 0 161 -34 8

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Post by flyhalffactory Thu 15 Jul 2021, 12:13 pm

Really excited to see Smith, he's been exceptional for the last few seasons, speed, acceleration, coolness and just great man-management

I love the look of this starting 15. "I feel the need, the need for speed" Hamish on the support side of Henshaw, Daly in his correct position and if Price is on his game, Smith could be in heaven.

What a bench as well, crikey that's awesome!

Beard at last starting in his right position at 4 with some Jones guy on the bench couldn't make it up

Love it
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Post by George Carlin Thu 15 Jul 2021, 1:30 pm

Speed all along that backline. I like it.  Very Happy
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Post by takethelongroad Thu 15 Jul 2021, 2:08 pm

This time we have the opposite of last team out, this time front and back row looks like the test combos as does back 3. Second row is a straight shootout for the test bench slot, Adam beard sneaks there for me at the moment. Bench front row also challenged to see if they can make the test bench. If henshaw functions well the 12 shirt is his. I am worried for AwJ shoulder If his injury really was a dislocation as it’s likely he will have damaged the labrum or ligaments enough for serious instability and high risk or re-injury, doc gray - any insight on this? I only operate on the soft squishy bits and mostly leave bones alone. Looking forward to seeing what Marcus smith can do.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 15 Jul 2021, 3:55 pm

Only 5 Welshmen in the squad, and only two starting, are they being saved for the tests. Laugh

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Post by BamBam Thu 15 Jul 2021, 4:08 pm

Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh

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Post by TJ Thu 15 Jul 2021, 4:40 pm

takethelongroad wrote: I am worried for AwJ shoulder If his injury really was a dislocation as it’s likely he will have damaged the labrum or ligaments enough for serious instability and high risk or re-injury, doc gray - any insight on this? I only operate on the soft squishy bits and mostly leave bones alone.

We had a bit of a debate on this on the thread dedicated to his return

IMO as a semi informed person is there has to be ligament damage, its more likely to redislocate and he is risking further injury and more damage and permanent disability by doing this.

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Post by Poorfour Thu 15 Jul 2021, 4:58 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Only 5 Welshmen in the squad, and only two starting, are they being saved for the tests. :laugh:

Given how much rustier the Lions looked than the Boks, I'd argue that those who are getting game time are in a better position to make the test squad...

But more seriously, I think there are a lot of positions still up for grabs. The lack of consensus about a potential test squad on here speaks to that. The test front rows I think are fairly set barring further injuries, though who starts and who's on the bench is up for debate. Biggar is likely to start at 10 given Farrell's performance last night, Russell's indisposition and Smith's inexperience. Itoje is probable. Most other positions, there's still a level of competition between fairly evenly matched players.

Some players improved their chances last night, others reduced them. I imagine it will be the same on Saturday. That said, I would guess that Gatland probably has a preferred side across most of the positions though his hand might be forced by a stellar performance on Saturday or - more likely - an injury.


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Post by George Carlin Thu 15 Jul 2021, 6:02 pm

Gatland has said that 60-70% of positions in the first test 23 are up for grabs.
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Post by flyhalffactory Thu 15 Jul 2021, 6:09 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Only 5 Welshmen in the squad, and only two starting, are they being saved for the tests. Laugh

Who the hell let two slip in? Run
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Post by flyhalffactory Thu 15 Jul 2021, 6:22 pm

George Carling wrote:Gatland has said that 60-70% of positions in the first test 23 are up for grabs.

So that's about 8 players in the 23
1. Jones / Sutherland
2. George /
3. Furlong /
4. Itoje /
5
6
7
8. Faletau /
9
10. Biggar /
11
12
13
14. Adams /
15. Hogg /

Maybe?
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Post by Poorfour Thu 15 Jul 2021, 7:35 pm

I'd say 5 in the front row (Jones [if fit] / George / LCD / Furlong / Sinckler), Itoje, Adams and Biggar.

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Post by lostinwales Thu 15 Jul 2021, 8:03 pm

Be very interesting to see who gets the nod at hooker, as I think amongst England fans the general consensus is that LCD is finally getting ahead of George. How much playing in the championship is responsible for that I don't know, but LCD is very useful.

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Post by RDW Thu 15 Jul 2021, 10:54 pm

LCD has looked good but George has been very good too. I like LCD's energy off the bench.

Owens was very good on Wednesday too!

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Post by TJ Fri 16 Jul 2021, 6:59 am

Front row the choice is who to leave out of the test side when all ( bar vunipola?) have shown they can do the job

Half backs and centres is more a question of who is good enough to be included

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Post by flyhalffactory Fri 16 Jul 2021, 8:16 am

Congratulations Mum & Dad from the lads & lasses on V606 Hug
Josh Adams, Wales and Lions winger announced the birth of Lottie Efa Adams on social media on Thursday, the morning after withdrawing from the Lions v South Africa 'A' match to watch partner Georgia Davies give birth via Zoom.
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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 16 Jul 2021, 9:16 am

RDW wrote:LCD has looked good but George has been very good too. I like LCD's energy off the bench.

Owens was very good on Wednesday too!

I think hooker is about the only position where there's no wrong answer. All three are quality options and will do a good job if selected.

Be interesting to see how Smith goes with a more tactical 9. Some of the headless chicken stuff we saw at Quins and England this summer were unnecessary from him though he was playing with 9s who prefer to run than pay tactics. This being a key reason why Danny Care doesn't get selected for England. Smith looked really good when he relaxed and played in the team attack and didn't try to be off the cuff. Hopefully Price will be a calming feature at 9 and just deliver him good ball.

Smith certainly has the skillset to play top level rugby, there's little he can't do.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 16 Jul 2021, 9:33 am

Being able to play what us in front of you is key whether your first instinct is to kick etc. He's been spot on this year so it'd be nice to see him carry that into this game. He's had about 5 days to learn all the plays so personally I don't expect a flawless display but wouldn't be surprised if he turns a few heads tomorrow.

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Post by TightHEAD Fri 16 Jul 2021, 9:46 am

So Lewis Ludlow has been banned for four matches for kneeing an opponent in the head during England's win over Canada, despite the officials deciding on the day it was accidental and issuing a yellow card.

I guess we will hear about Faf's ban in a couple of days time????

Be consistent World Rugby. Very Happy
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Post by Old Man Fri 16 Jul 2021, 10:02 am

Well, if it is going to make the Lions fans and Gatland happy hopefully he will get banned.

At least then it will be the end of the story, even though as the law suggests

Tackler makes a definite attempt to change height / direction to avoid ball carrier’s head

But hey, lets interpret those laws with the same inconsistency as the referees and World Rugby themselves, eh?

I also suspect a number of SA fans will be happier to see Reinach instead of De Klerk.

So a win win for all and sundry Wink

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Post by TightHEAD Fri 16 Jul 2021, 10:06 am

Tackler makes a definite attempt to change height / direction to avoid ball carrier’s head

He wasn't looking, no use of arms and dived into the contact area.

Undefendable if World Rugby are serious about player welfare. Had it been a prop they would have been red carded. F A C T.... kiss

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Post by Old Man Fri 16 Jul 2021, 10:10 am

TightHEAD wrote:Tackler makes a definite attempt to change height / direction to avoid ball carrier’s head

He wasn't looking, no use of arms and dived into the contact area.

Undefendable if World Rugby are serious about player welfare. Had it been a prop they would have been red carded. F A C T....  kiss


Yet you completely ignore the part that says “Ball Carrier” Wink

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 16 Jul 2021, 10:19 am

Old Man wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Tackler makes a definite attempt to change height / direction to avoid ball carrier’s head

He wasn't looking, no use of arms and dived into the contact area.

Undefendable if World Rugby are serious about player welfare. Had it been a prop they would have been red carded. F A C T....  kiss


Yet you completely ignore the part that says “Ball Carrier” Wink

Ill reply on the other thread as it fits better there.

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Post by RDW Fri 16 Jul 2021, 10:24 am

Old Man wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Tackler makes a definite attempt to change height / direction to avoid ball carrier’s head

He wasn't looking, no use of arms and dived into the contact area.

Undefendable if World Rugby are serious about player welfare. Had it been a prop they would have been red carded. F A C T....  kiss


Yet you completely ignore the part that says “Ball Carrier” Wink

Wait , are you saying if someone does a flying headbutt off the ball it's ok of the receiver doesn't have the ball...?

Fwiw I can't make my mind up on the Faff incident, but I really don't know where you're going with this..

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Post by Old Man Fri 16 Jul 2021, 10:33 am

RDW wrote:
Old Man wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Tackler makes a definite attempt to change height / direction to avoid ball carrier’s head

He wasn't looking, no use of arms and dived into the contact area.

Undefendable if World Rugby are serious about player welfare. Had it been a prop they would have been red carded. F A C T....  kiss


Yet you completely ignore the part that says “Ball Carrier” Wink

Wait , are you saying if someone does a flying headbutt off the ball it's ok of the receiver doesn't have the ball...?

Fwiw I can't make my mind up on the Faff incident, but I really don't know where you're going with this..

I explained it earlier, the question was if There is a carrier and a hammer driving the carrier forward, does the tackler take responsibility for hitting the hammer whilst tackkling the carrier?

On the SA A thread 7 and a half clarified the situation, it seems the tackler may not endanger any player, the knock on efffect of bouncing from the carrier to the hammer is not legal,

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 16 Jul 2021, 10:47 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Being able to play what us in front of you is key whether your first instinct is to kick etc. He's been spot on this year so it'd be nice to see him carry that into this game. He's had about 5 days to learn all the plays so personally I don't expect a flawless display but wouldn't be surprised if he turns a few heads tomorrow.

Mostly. Ford gave him a lesson at Welford Road and he ran down some blind alleys Vs USA. Nothing unusual for a young 10. I don't think being camp for a short time will hurt his chances he plays heads up rugby very well, it's his biggest strength. As I said earlier he's got to learn not to force things though again that's an experience thing. If Price can take on a leadership role and give Smith a platform he'll have that backline singing but he'll need that protection from 9. 

Quins tend to fly by the seat of their pants which is fine for them but leads to very open games. The Lions can possibly afford that against the Stormers but cannot against SA. The SA back three will shred them just like the A team did from Daly's poor clearance of Farrell's poor kick choice in the 22. So Smith will have to show Gatland he can play in a system and go with the percentages when they are required and then turn it on when the time is right. At international level you don't get the chances and error let offs you do at club level and Quins concede a lot of points so he must be more clinical.

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Post by Poorfour Fri 16 Jul 2021, 11:00 am

I think he's shown in the England games that he can adapt to different systems - he was very much playing within himself against the USA and Canada but still orchestrated the play well and created a lot of space off short, well-timed passes rather than kicks or cut-outs.

That said, it didn't look to me as if the controlled game plan worked very well on Wednesday, and it may be that the Lions need to open up a bit to cut through the Bok defence. It's a very fast rush defence that cuts off the outside channels, and Smith has a full bag of tricks to outfox that. A few judicious chips or kick passes, reverses on a tight line or loop plays to give him space outside the defensive spearhead could be just what's needed to put a bit of doubt in the defenders' minds.
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Post by doctor_grey Fri 16 Jul 2021, 11:02 am

Can't make up my mind on the Faf incident either.  After watching it a few times I think that before contact Faf realises he is in a bad place about to get run over and almost bails out of the play.  Turned his body and closed his eyes as if bracing for contact.  If there is no further sanction I have no complaint.  I think if anyone was going to be injured in that play it was going to be Faf and not the ball carrier and supporting player.    

That said, and as almost all of us have said, World Rugby and the referees/TMOs are still inconsistent about contact above the shoulders.  On the pitch and after.  I do think they are doing a better job with no arm tackles, however.  To be fair, in the NFL despite referee teams having frequent video sessions and training followed by retraining, the presence of video reviews, they still make egregious mistakes now and then.  There is a human factor involved which will never be factored out.    

Ultimately, though, I want to see the Lions take on a full strength Springbok squad.  Not giving latitude to Faf because of that, and happy he didn't get hurt on the play.  but this is a weird one for me.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 16 Jul 2021, 11:26 am

Poorfour wrote:I think he's shown in the England games that he can adapt to different systems - he was very much playing within himself against the USA and Canada but still orchestrated the play well and created a lot of space off short, well-timed passes rather than kicks or cut-outs.

That said, it didn't look to me as if the controlled game plan worked very well on Wednesday, and it may be that the Lions need to open up a bit to cut through the Bok defence. It's a very fast rush defence that cuts off the outside channels, and Smith has a full bag of tricks to outfox that. A few judicious chips or kick passes, reverses on a tight line or loop plays to give him space outside the defensive spearhead could be just what's needed to put a bit of doubt in the defenders' minds.

I'm all for the bag of tricks but they need to be used within a cohesive backline. At one point Vs the USA he ran down the blindside in clearly an uncalled move got caught, isolated and turned over. It was the USA so easy brush over that. Can't do that against the top side in the world. 

Playing with control doesn't mean you have to play like Farrell Bot. Communication to the talented backline outside of him and he's got those to go with him and flourish from what he can do. He can't just try things on a whim and expect them to read his mind though.

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Post by jimbopip Fri 16 Jul 2021, 11:29 am

Doc, sensible as ever.

I can only attempt to make sense of the incident by putting it in the context of games I have played in. We've all been in those all hands to the pump defending the try line moments. Once, playing against Basildon, after their forwards had thrown themselves at our pack until they had run out of men they spun the ball wide, quickly. I was shuffling across to support our last man when I realised he was our stand off and one of the best tacklers in our team. As ever, he pulled out a text book tackle; low, around the waist and held on for all he was worth. Sadly, all that happened was the opponent fell over the line due to his forward momentum, and scored. e discussed it as we walked to the halfway line and the only option was to tackle him high and drive him back: not really in his text book tackling repertoire.
Now, Faf is pretty short for an international rugby player; a low tackle round the waist and it's a certain try, an attempt at a choke tackle and holding two players up is also a certain try. His only option is to try to knock them backwards, OR slow them down until his teammates arrive. Look at any images you see and you'll see he has led with his shoulder, high, and turned his head away from the impending impact. All of which is a straight red.

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Post by TightHEAD Fri 16 Jul 2021, 11:31 am

Don't forget Faf has a history too.

Should be taken into account when World Rugby review this incident. They will review it won't they???? Wink
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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 16 Jul 2021, 11:48 am

The game you mention doesn't immediately flood back to me Sam, does remind me of beshocked constantly claiming that Goode was a better fly half than Ford as he outplayed him in a game (in his view!).

The thing from Smith this year that has come on leaps is where he plays and when he looks for space behind. Just because him and Care play what's in front to a greater extent than most teams (ie the 3 breakdowns and kick strategy Jones had for the last 12 months) doesn't mean the play without thinking. We'll see anyway over the next 12 months on how he develops. Sometimes people fly with the experience (Itoje, Curry) sometimes they flounder (Cipriani).

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Post by Poorfour Fri 16 Jul 2021, 12:16 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
I'm all for the bag of tricks but they need to be used within a cohesive backline. At one point Vs the USA he ran down the blindside in clearly an uncalled move got caught, isolated and turned over. It was the USA so easy brush over that. Can't do that against the top side in the world. 

Playing with control doesn't mean you have to play like Farrell Bot. Communication to the talented backline outside of him and he's got those to go with him and flourish from what he can do. He can't just try things on a whim and expect them to read his mind though.

It's a bit hard to judge anyone in the backline on the USA game given they played most of it with 2 9s, 2 10s having lost Malins and Lawrence early on. A lack of cohesion in the backline is almost inevitable. The performance against Canada is a better measure and the scoreline was similar to what Wales achieved with a more experienced squad.

I don't know where you get the impression that Smith tries things on a whim and expects people to read his mind, though. Just because he's creative doesn't mean he's flaky. He's always had good control of a game and is still a percentage player - he just has vision and skills that change those percentages. Take a look at Lynagh's try in the final - Smith gets a pretty poor ball when Quins were scrambling to retain it, makes to run, fixes three defenders and then sends Green through the gap he's created.

Yes, Quins had an unusually bad day at Welford Road last time out. It was a bad team performance and they really struggled with the Tigers' close in defence - but they still finished with two losing bonus points and the difference between the teams was less than the four conversions Smith missed (he's usually a very good kicker, especially with critical kicks, but had a serious wobble towards the end of the season that he seems to have righted in the Canada Game)
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Post by doctor_grey Fri 16 Jul 2021, 12:58 pm

takethelongroad wrote:This time we have the opposite of last team out, this time front and back row looks like the test combos as does back 3. Second row is a straight shootout for the test bench slot, Adam beard sneaks there for me at the moment. Bench front row also challenged to see if they can make the test bench. If henshaw functions well the 12 shirt is his. I am worried for AwJ shoulder If his injury really was a dislocation as it’s likely he will have damaged the labrum or ligaments enough for serious instability and high risk or re-injury, doc gray - any insight on this? I only operate on the soft squishy bits and mostly leave bones alone. Looking forward to seeing what Marcus smith can do.
I really don't like the soft, squishy bits. They make such a mess and are always in the way.....

I think you hit the nail square on the head about AWJ shoulder diagnosis. I have never allowed anyone with a shoulder dislocation back into American Football contact training in less than three weeks and game action in less than four. And those were very unusual and specific cases. A torn labrum is a medium term injury at the least. For baseball pitchers a torn labrum in the pitching shoulder can cost half a season. No question about the potential for reinjury. Ligaments heal at a fairly predictable rate with not much of a bell curve.

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Post by flyhalffactory Fri 16 Jul 2021, 1:27 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
takethelongroad wrote:This time we have the opposite of last team out, this time front and back row looks like the test combos as does back 3. Second row is a straight shootout for the test bench slot, Adam beard sneaks there for me at the moment. Bench front row also challenged to see if they can make the test bench. If henshaw functions well the 12 shirt is his. I am worried for AwJ shoulder If his injury really was a dislocation as it’s likely he will have damaged the labrum or ligaments enough for serious instability and high risk or re-injury, doc gray - any insight on this? I only operate on the soft squishy bits and mostly leave bones alone. Looking forward to seeing what Marcus smith can do.
I really don't like the soft, squishy bits.  They make such a mess and are always in the way.....

I think you hit the nail square on the head about AWJ shoulder diagnosis.  I have never allowed anyone with a shoulder dislocation back into American Football contact training in less than three weeks and game action in less than four.  And those were very unusual and specific cases.  A torn labrum is a medium term injury at the least.  For baseball pitchers a torn labrum in the pitching shoulder can cost half a season.  No question about the potential for reinjury.  Ligaments heal at a fairly predictable rate with not much of a bell curve.  

I suppose it's academic as (as my missus said) it could have popped without any labrum tear, or significant damage to the tendon or cartilage. We were discussing it when he was on the ground and walking off the field, "wouldn't surprise me to see him back for the 2nd test" but even she was concerned with his recovery, within what was it? 15 days.

I'm holding my breath for him. Positive thoughts on the way Big Al
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Post by George Carlin Fri 16 Jul 2021, 1:36 pm

There's a serious point here. We're playing the Springboks - the chances of a forward exacerbating an existing injury through heavy contact is very high.

I know that we're all high fiving each other and saying hail marys because AWJ is back - what we should be asking is whether an (being conservative) 80% fit AWJ is better than a 100% fit Iain Henderson, Adam Beard or Jonny Hill.

Okay, so he's the captain - how do you quantify that 'value add' on the pitch? I'm not saying that it doesn't exist - how much credence do you give it? It's just that if AWJ only lasts20 minutes of the first test before being smashed in a tackle and popping the shoulder out again, have we placed far too much emphasis on him being in the team?
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Post by George Carlin Fri 16 Jul 2021, 1:39 pm

Second thought: is this the first tour in recent memory where we have a number of excellent players but very few genuinely world class ones?

I don't recall a previous tour where so few of the first test starters seemed to be nailed down. Some people will say that's a good thing - I just can't get my head around whether I agree or whether it's very worrying indeed.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 16 Jul 2021, 1:51 pm

Gatland has said that Jones is 100% fit but needs 20 mins tomorrow to be factored in for next week. He also said that he could come on after 2 mins though so who knows.

Re starters Gatland will have known his starters before the tour kicked off.

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 16 Jul 2021, 1:57 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
takethelongroad wrote:This time we have the opposite of last team out, this time front and back row looks like the test combos as does back 3. Second row is a straight shootout for the test bench slot, Adam beard sneaks there for me at the moment. Bench front row also challenged to see if they can make the test bench. If henshaw functions well the 12 shirt is his. I am worried for AwJ shoulder If his injury really was a dislocation as it’s likely he will have damaged the labrum or ligaments enough for serious instability and high risk or re-injury, doc gray - any insight on this? I only operate on the soft squishy bits and mostly leave bones alone. Looking forward to seeing what Marcus smith can do.
I really don't like the soft, squishy bits.  They make such a mess and are always in the way.....

I think you hit the nail square on the head about AWJ shoulder diagnosis.  I have never allowed anyone with a shoulder dislocation back into American Football contact training in less than three weeks and game action in less than four.  And those were very unusual and specific cases.  A torn labrum is a medium term injury at the least.  For baseball pitchers a torn labrum in the pitching shoulder can cost half a season.  No question about the potential for reinjury.  Ligaments heal at a fairly predictable rate with not much of a bell curve.  

I suppose it's academic as (as my missus said) it could have popped without any labrum tear, or significant damage to the tendon or cartilage. We were discussing it when he was on the ground and walking off the field, "wouldn't surprise me to see him back for the 2nd test" but even she was concerned with his recovery, within what was it? 15 days.

I'm holding my breath for him. Positive thoughts on the way Big Al
Agree, it is academic. They called it a dislocation. And here he is in SA on the bench. So we have to trust the med staff that everything is OK and probably something less than what we would typically consider a dislocation in the classic sense of it. Hope he goes OK.

One last point, I don't think pro Rugby players deliberately try to injure anymore. But I would target him if you know what I mean. Just to see how good and functional he is.

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Post by flyhalffactory Fri 16 Jul 2021, 2:13 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
takethelongroad wrote:This time we have the opposite of last team out, this time front and back row looks like the test combos as does back 3. Second row is a straight shootout for the test bench slot, Adam beard sneaks there for me at the moment. Bench front row also challenged to see if they can make the test bench. If henshaw functions well the 12 shirt is his. I am worried for AwJ shoulder If his injury really was a dislocation as it’s likely he will have damaged the labrum or ligaments enough for serious instability and high risk or re-injury, doc gray - any insight on this? I only operate on the soft squishy bits and mostly leave bones alone. Looking forward to seeing what Marcus smith can do.
I really don't like the soft, squishy bits.  They make such a mess and are always in the way.....

I think you hit the nail square on the head about AWJ shoulder diagnosis.  I have never allowed anyone with a shoulder dislocation back into American Football contact training in less than three weeks and game action in less than four.  And those were very unusual and specific cases.  A torn labrum is a medium term injury at the least.  For baseball pitchers a torn labrum in the pitching shoulder can cost half a season.  No question about the potential for reinjury.  Ligaments heal at a fairly predictable rate with not much of a bell curve.  

I suppose it's academic as (as my missus said) it could have popped without any labrum tear, or significant damage to the tendon or cartilage. We were discussing it when he was on the ground and walking off the field, "wouldn't surprise me to see him back for the 2nd test" but even she was concerned with his recovery, within what was it? 15 days.

I'm holding my breath for him. Positive thoughts on the way Big Al
Agree, it is academic.  They called it a dislocation.  And here he is in SA on the bench.   So we have to trust the med staff that everything is OK and probably something less than what we would typically consider a dislocation in the classic sense of it.  Hope he goes OK.  

One last point, I don't think pro Rugby players deliberately try to injure anymore.  But I would target him if you know what I mean.  Just to see how good and functional he is.

Absolutely Doc, any player will test his shoulder, let's get the cards on the table it's not just AWJ we are talking about, it's everyone who supports the Lions in some way. If AWJ, the medical team are putting him back into a situation where he could have long term disability or lose us the test series because of underperformances then they should be shot. This is history books time never to be eradicated, will the Lions have a win in SA, if they say he is well enough to play he is well enough to be targeted, If I was the SA team I would be testing his mind and body as soon as. A 100% fit AWJ is the best lock we have got, so SA will want him out of the picture.

On the flip side and lets be honest about this, none of the locks have filled us with total confidence, I'll go as far to say that Adam Beard has been our best lock and tomorrow he is playing 4 which is his best position, I don't think Gats & Co will have the gonads to start him but let's hope he plays a blinder as he could be the unlucky one to lose out. Gats will play Itoje and A N Other, and if AWJ comes through Saturdays encounter then he will at least be on the bench for the test with Hendo starting
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Post by Poorfour Fri 16 Jul 2021, 3:04 pm

You won't see a more literal case of a team thinking they can attack on a player's weaker shoulder.
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Post by BamBam Fri 16 Jul 2021, 4:22 pm

There's more to being a lock than line out defence. Beard is an option but getting dominated at the gain line and retaining your place in the team is the preserve of only one Welsh lock

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Post by flyhalffactory Fri 16 Jul 2021, 4:37 pm

BamBam wrote:There's more to being a lock than line out defence. Beard is an option but getting dominated at the gain line and retaining your place in the team is the preserve of only one Welsh lock

I agree and that's why I've been disappointed with the locks, Henderson, Itoje, Hill all have been excellent in the line but non existent at the breakdown, Itoje first match was poor, and last match for 1st 40 minutes excellent in the line but was awol at the breakdown, rucks, mauls (he wasn't the only one Navidi, Curry just poor first half. Let's be honest, this was a SA 23 who hadn't hardly played for 15 months and stuck in hotel for 6 days. What we don't want to see is fit locks & BRFs getting turned over at the breakdown, missing tackles or giving pens away under pressure from an "undercooked" side. We only got our sh1t together when our opponents went down to 13 men and they starting running out of gas
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Post by doctor_grey Fri 16 Jul 2021, 5:59 pm

Agree completely about the second rows. It's almost bizarre that good players have not really shown what we have seen them do in internationals for their home nations outside of the lineouts.

Not really sure we got anything together in that game. The one Lions try was against 13 men. The defense was better in the second half, but as you said, was against a tiring team. The attack, to me, remained toothless throughout.

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