Ashes 2021/22 and other cricket through the winter of 2021 thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

Thought I'd start a new thread for the winter cricket of 2021 that we (covid depending) have ahead of us. Obviously the World T20, but that has it's own thread...

The main event being the Ashes, with the dates below

Men's Ashes schedule
First Test: 8-12 December - Gabba, Brisbane (00:00 GMT)
Second Test: 16-20 December - Adelaide Oval, Adelaide (d/n - 04:00 GMT)
Third Test: 26-30 December - MCG, Melbourne (23:30 GMT, 25 December)
Fourth Test: 5-9 January - SCG, Sydney (23:30 GMT, 4 January)
Fifth Test: 14-18 January - Optus Stadium, Perth (02:30 GMT) (subject to change)

Women's Ashes schedule
Test: 27-30 January - Manuka Oval, Canberra (23:00 GMT, 26 January)
First T20: 4 February - North Sydney Oval, Sydney (08:10 GMT)
Second T20: 6 February - North Sydney Oval, Sydney (08:10 GMT)
Third T20: 10 February - Adelaide Oval, Adelaide (08:10 GMT)
First ODl: 13 February - Adelaide Oval, Adelaide (23:05 GMT, 12 February)
Second ODl: 16 February - Junction Oval, Melbourne (23:05 GMT, 15 February)
Third ODI: 19 February - Junction Oval, Melbourne (23:05 GMT, 18 February)

India have a busy winter, with New Zealand touring in November/December and then India head to South Africa for the boxing day test/January.
There's an interesting test series between Bangladesh and Pakistan in Bangladesh in Nov/Dec, which should be an entertaining watch. Unfortunately I don't see much cricket on the schedule for Pakistan/Sri Lanka (unless I am missing something!)
A few others on the future tours programme, but not confirmed yet as far as I see...

[Soul Requiem]

Anderson is still capable of containing the opposition batsmen, he's going for less than two an over, it has however got to the point where he needs the others in the bowling unit to do the damage. The unit as a whole is not suited to Australian conditions, he'd be a valuable asset IF and it's a huge if there were a couple of genuine pace bowlers available. Ideally you'd get rid of Woakes who offers nothing and Broad, replacing them with Archer and Wood for instance, suddenly there's variety, control and pace. Archer with his upright release is a devastating loss, even with him England lose but they'd have the ability to occasionally blow the Aussies batting away, just don't get him bowling short.

[Mind the windows Tino.]

Surely though if you had three bowlers who could take 3/55 off 30, you'd be well in the game most of the time? I get that he doesn't tend to wreck top orders as much nowadays, but then he used to be pretty much a new ball or nothing type bowler

Problem is, this isn't football, and not all wickets are created equal. If you have three bowlers that can take 3/55 off 30, you'd have teams 165/9. But if you three bowlers that can take 3/55 once the fifth wicket has fallen, you have the small issue of taking five wickets before they can shine. Which is where ideally, your strike bowler would, well strike.

It's the reason why despite having pretty similar averages, only a lunatic would pick Starc over Hazlewood. There's value in cleaning up a tail, but MUCH more value in having someone who can get you to that tail.

It's like pulling apart a boxers record though, Raf. Ali was gifted decisions against Norton. Lewis got knocked out twice. Marciano was mobbed backed and never fought anyone in their prime. Mayweather waited 3 years too long to fight Manny.

Easy to find holes in (almost) all the best sports people if you want to. Pretty churlish when you're talking about the leading test wicket taker for fast bowlers. Sure, some of that is longevity but that itself isn't a dirty word. That should be celebrated.

[msp83]

Of the 5 quicks for England this game, Anderson for me, has been the the 2nd least impressive after Woakes. Broad has been the pick for me, though he doesn't have much to show for it. Stokes as always, bowled heart out, has done the donkey work, and taken out 2. Yes he has bowled those no-balls, has given away runs too. But has been impactful.
Robinson has kept it quiet, and though guilty of no-balls, has looked more like taking wickets than either Anderson or Woakes.

[msp83]

Feel really sorry for Broad. Now Anderson letting him down, with another drop, should have been taken!

[kingraf]

South Africa haven't lost a live rubber Test in Australia since 2006 (and even then, it was a whole rain-enforced thing where we chased the series in a Test we were bossing, bit I digress), and I genuinely can't place a single time we won a Test there because someone held up an end. Especially with the Kookaburra which does nothing from overs 30-80, teams can, and invariably do feast on the weaker bowlers if you haven't made inroads. To that end England have been fortunate that Joe Root's turn as a batting all-rounder has held (12 sticks at an average of 30 and an economy of less than three suggests someone a little bit more respectable than a part-timer), and he's been able to contribute with a genuine fifth bowler's load.

[Pal Joey]

The gulf between the teams in these conditions is huge and I don't mean this to come across as sour grapes but christ cricket in Australia is dull.

That does seem a little churlish, Soul...

He's always churlish, alfie. Haven't you noticed?

The gulf isn't as big in England. Nearly 50:50 but we let things slip / had some rotten luck over the last decade or two. Australia really should be clearly in front as they were for most of the modern era in England.  

Of course here it's a completely different story 9 times out of 10. The locals bat better, bowl better and field better under 'Australian' conditions.
There's nothing wrong with the various different conditions across different parts of the country. The surfaces are truer, the light is so much better than in England. Touring teams simply need to 'work honestly' as India did so successfully last year and a few teams like the great SA have done in the past.

The key is though: take those chances and try something different when the chips are down... it's risk/reward... like Our Favourite Commentator repeated about 20 times in the last 2 days. It's almost if England were taking things for granted yesterday.

Today, the bowling has been fuller and therefore more reward has come. Still a couple of easy chances have gone begging though. Tons of no balls... plus some comical fielding from Woakes in particular.

Who do you blame for that? It's not the conditions. It's the player.

I just think England have failed to take too many chances here. How many is it now? 10? Australia should never have been 221/2 overnight but poor cricket from the bowling/fielding side has naturally been severely punished. "And whitely sow!"... as Bill Lawry would say.

It has been a much better day for England today but I get the feeling the Aussies are getting are little tired batting now. Loss of concentration seeping into their play. England must feel tired too. It looked like some of them wished they were elsewhere (or were about to throw in the towel) but a couple of late wickets should re-energise the good players.

They need to bang on another 50 or so (run rate was up around 4 before the supper break) and then see if Starc and Co. can make some early inroads during the much over-rated twilight period. It's a beautiful time to bat... with that lovely coloured sky and all.

[alfie]

Australia batting on for a bit yet. They'll want a good bowl at England tonight , of course ; but I think they fancy a few more runs yet.

Tiring the England players a little more probably a useful by product.

Four hundred up anyway.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Matt Smith in the BT Sports studio suggests to Matt Prior we are now watching ''with a little bit more optimism''.
Prior replies, ''Errrh ...''.

As JD sagely commented in the last Test, Smith is hardly Benaud.

He's a football presenter. I can't really blame him for not being au fait with the intricacies of the game. I'd blame BT for not putting together like an actual team!

Would be like asking Cook to go give analysis on Burnley vs Watford

[msp83]

Anderson is still capable of containing the opposition batsmen, he's going for less than two an over, it has however got to the point where he needs the others in the bowling unit to do the damage. The unit as a whole is not suited to Australian conditions, he'd be a valuable asset IF and it's a huge if there were a couple of genuine pace bowlers available. Ideally you'd get rid of Woakes who offers nothing and Broad, replacing them with Archer and Wood for instance, suddenly there's variety, control and pace. Archer with his upright release is a devastating loss, even with him England lose but they'd have the ability to occasionally blow the Aussies batting away, just don't get him bowling short.

As for Woakes, they should limit him to home tests wherein he can be devastating with the ball. His batting abilities apart, he just doesn't seem good enough for these conditions. Why did they not take someone like Mahmood in, when Archer and Stone became unavailable? Or is he also injured?

[Mind the windows Tino.]

Anderson is still capable of containing the opposition batsmen, he's going for less than two an over, it has however got to the point where he needs the others in the bowling unit to do the damage. The unit as a whole is not suited to Australian conditions, he'd be a valuable asset IF and it's a huge if there were a couple of genuine pace bowlers available. Ideally you'd get rid of Woakes who offers nothing and Broad, replacing them with Archer and Wood for instance, suddenly there's variety, control and pace. Archer with his upright release is a devastating loss, even with him England lose but they'd have the ability to occasionally blow the Aussies batting away, just don't get him bowling short.

As for Woakes, they should limit him to home tests wherein he can be devastating with the ball. His batting abilities apart, he just doesn't seem good enough for these conditions. Why did they not take someone like Mahmood in, when Archer and Stone became unavailable? Or is he also injured?

I don't think he is injured and there were lots of people on here and ex pro pundits asking the same question as you.

You'll have to ask Silverwood. But let him work out how to tie his shoelaces first.

[msp83]

Starc and the debutant Neser aren't exactly trying to be hanging around by the look of things.

[msp83]

Anderson is still capable of containing the opposition batsmen, he's going for less than two an over, it has however got to the point where he needs the others in the bowling unit to do the damage. The unit as a whole is not suited to Australian conditions, he'd be a valuable asset IF and it's a huge if there were a couple of genuine pace bowlers available. Ideally you'd get rid of Woakes who offers nothing and Broad, replacing them with Archer and Wood for instance, suddenly there's variety, control and pace. Archer with his upright release is a devastating loss, even with him England lose but they'd have the ability to occasionally blow the Aussies batting away, just don't get him bowling short.

As for Woakes, they should limit him to home tests wherein he can be devastating with the ball. His batting abilities apart, he just doesn't seem good enough for these conditions. Why did they not take someone like Mahmood in, when Archer and Stone became unavailable? Or is he also injured?

I don't think he is injured and there were lots of people on here and ex pro pundits asking the same question as you.

You'll have to ask Silverwood. But let him work out how to tie his shoelaces first.

Not even giving themselves the option of picking him, is downright stupid. They may not have been playing him from the word go, and it is not by any means guaranteed that he would have made a world of difference. At least he offers something different, and by the look of things, something better. And yet, they haven't even picked him in the squad?! Brilliant!

[msp83]

Stokes back on, and he isn't yet exploring the middle of the pitch. He's a far better bowler than that. Root has really been overdoing that stuff...

[kingraf]

Surely though if you had three bowlers who could take 3/55 off 30, you'd be well in the game most of the time? I get that he doesn't tend to wreck top orders as much nowadays, but then he used to be pretty much a new ball or nothing type bowler

Problem is, this isn't football, and not all wickets are created equal. If you have three bowlers that can take 3/55 off 30, you'd have teams 165/9. But if you three bowlers that can take 3/55 once the fifth wicket has fallen, you have the small issue of taking five wickets before they can shine. Which is where ideally, your strike bowler would, well strike.

It's the reason why despite having pretty similar averages, only a lunatic would pick Starc over Hazlewood. There's value in cleaning up a tail, but MUCH more value in having someone who can get you to that tail.

It's like pulling apart a boxers record though, Raf. Ali was gifted decisions against Norton. Lewis got knocked out twice. Marciano was mobbed backed and never fought anyone in their prime. Mayweather waited 3 years too long to fight Manny.

Easy to find holes in (almost) all the best sports people if you want to. Pretty churlish when you're talking about the leading test wicket taker for fast bowlers. Sure, some of that is longevity but that itself isn't a dirty word. That should be celebrated.

I know I'm barely on here, but I'm not sure there's anything I used to bleat on about more than Norton actually having a 3-0 record against Ali.

As I said, he's won me over with his longevity. The guy has played almost twice as many Tests as Steyn, and Steyn had a mechanical breakdown every time someone gave him a cricket ball near the end. Its incredibly impressive. But surely its fair game to point out that this year he's basically just had cardio sessions in the middle when England have needed someone to go 2 in 2, or rip through the batting line up? And it's not just this innings. In the second Indian Test, with a 27 run lead, he goes 0/53 at 2.5 an over. Similarly in the fourth Test, with a 100 run lead, it's 1/79 at 2.4 an over. Being economical is great, and it's not without merit. But this year, game on the line, all he's done is run in and walk back to his mark with no bearing on the game.

[kingraf]

You'll never convince me that Mitchell Starc wasn't a more plausible #6 than Mitchell Marsh.

[Mind the windows Tino.]

I know I'm barely on here, but I'm not sure there's anything I used to bleat on about more than Norton actually having a 3-0 record against Ali.

Action Netball?

We'll never agree on Jimmy, but nice to talk to you again champ.

[guildfordbat]

Matt Smith in the BT Sports studio suggests to Matt Prior we are now watching ''with a little bit more optimism''.
Prior replies, ''Errrh ...''.

As JD sagely commented in the last Test, Smith is hardly Benaud.

He's a football presenter. I can't really blame him for not being au fait with the intricacies of the game. I'd blame BT for not putting together like an actual team!

Would be like asking Cook to go give analysis on Burnley vs Watford  

Love the Cook analogy!

Get your point about Smith but as he takes BT's money, he can take my criticism.

[Soul Requiem]

Anderson is still capable of containing the opposition batsmen, he's going for less than two an over, it has however got to the point where he needs the others in the bowling unit to do the damage. The unit as a whole is not suited to Australian conditions, he'd be a valuable asset IF and it's a huge if there were a couple of genuine pace bowlers available. Ideally you'd get rid of Woakes who offers nothing and Broad, replacing them with Archer and Wood for instance, suddenly there's variety, control and pace. Archer with his upright release is a devastating loss, even with him England lose but they'd have the ability to occasionally blow the Aussies batting away, just don't get him bowling short.

As for Woakes, they should limit him to home tests wherein he can be devastating with the ball. His batting abilities apart, he just doesn't seem good enough for these conditions. Why did they not take someone like Mahmood in, when Archer and Stone became unavailable? Or is he also injured?

I don't think he is injured and there were lots of people on here and ex pro pundits asking the same question as you.

You'll have to ask Silverwood. But let him work out how to tie his shoelaces first.

Fear perhaps? He bowled without reward in the two Lions games and England do have a habit of breaking careers before they've even really started in Australia. I would personally have selected him as variation is more likely to bring wickets than more right arm medium pace.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Rain on the horizon? Time to engage full time wasting England

[GSC]

Nothing like having to get the ball back from the stands to waste time

[kingraf]

Nice as it is to see Neser hitting the ball, it isn't lost on me that we're 45 minutes away from Shane Warne moaning that he's too short to play Test cricket

[Pal Joey]

Woakes getting hammered again which is great to see. He wouldn't make an Australian 15th XI.
Must be averaging 55 with the ball by now. He's simply useless. Send him home!

[Mind the windows Tino.]

Anderson is still capable of containing the opposition batsmen, he's going for less than two an over, it has however got to the point where he needs the others in the bowling unit to do the damage. The unit as a whole is not suited to Australian conditions, he'd be a valuable asset IF and it's a huge if there were a couple of genuine pace bowlers available. Ideally you'd get rid of Woakes who offers nothing and Broad, replacing them with Archer and Wood for instance, suddenly there's variety, control and pace. Archer with his upright release is a devastating loss, even with him England lose but they'd have the ability to occasionally blow the Aussies batting away, just don't get him bowling short.

As for Woakes, they should limit him to home tests wherein he can be devastating with the ball. His batting abilities apart, he just doesn't seem good enough for these conditions. Why did they not take someone like Mahmood in, when Archer and Stone became unavailable? Or is he also injured?

I don't think he is injured and there were lots of people on here and ex pro pundits asking the same question as you.

You'll have to ask Silverwood. But let him work out how to tie his shoelaces first.

Fear perhaps? He bowled without reward in the two Lions games and England do have a habit of breaking careers before they've even really started in Australia. I would personally have selected him as variation is more likely to bring wickets than more right arm medium pace.

Could to be on to something. Maybe it was fear/history and maybe he'll go on to have a sterling career having not being part of this inevitable crushing series defeat.

I would tend to agree though, I would have selected him and used him carefully. He just passes the eye test for me. There is something about him that just feels right.

[GSC]

Not sure we're gonna see Woakes again in this series

[alfie]

Raf has omitted the third Indian Test when he (Anderson) got Rahul , Pujara and Kohli in eight overs  at the start

But honestly I'm not denying he's not often been the cutting edge lately. In conditions that suit , he can still be a wrecker. But here I think his role is more keeping a lid on - and I think it is also fair to note that this is not just by bowling defensively : the batsmen tend to take less chances against him , which can pay off the other end.

Never mind . We all have our views.

To return to the current situation: happy hour is here . Think 450 is the target. Won't be long. Neser enjoying himself - he can bat a bit .

Will leave plenty of time for Australia to bowl - as long as the weather stays dry. Just lightning so far...

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Not sure we're gonna see Woakes again in this series

As pointed out pre-series, there was a reason he's only played 3 overseas tests since the last time they were down under in 2017/18.

Maybe Starc can put his shoulder out swinging here to give us a chance

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Cheap Neser runs, with Stokes getting him out - beautiful news for the tipping competition for me

[Pal Joey]

Cheap Neser runs, with Stokes getting him out - beautiful news for the tipping competition for me

Starc is good value withe the bat too.

[kingraf]

The India series in India is the India series not much to glean, but this test does continue England's complete inability to seize the moment in games where they have an opportunity. In both their defeats to India at home, they had leads. In the first Test here it would have been hardly deserved, but they had a chance to make a real game of it when they were effectively -50/2 with two set batsmen on the best batting and they rolled over. And today again, it was less of an opportunity than the other Tests, but at 300/5 there was a small window where maybe someone can make something happen, and they allow Alex Carey, who has 20 Test runs to his name , to walk all over them. Those weren't necessarily winning positions, so you wouldn't expect them to be 4-0 from those positions, but they really shouldn't be 0-4.

I'm not sure if it's on the coach or the captain, but someone isn't quite doing their job in terms of getting them to key in on big moments of play.

[alfie]

Neser gone ...good catch by Broad in the outfield.

No declaration yet though. Might be happy to get as many as they can - bat once bat big , eh ?

Have to say Australia have done this exactly as they'd have wanted . Played patiently for a long time - and now have delivered the whirlwind late order burst to make up for some slow scoring. And cooking the England bowlers on the way...perfect really.

Suppose if England bat really long they might regret taking up so much time : but you'd get long odds on that. Pitch looks great for batting but this isn't Cook Strauss etc...

Richardson out , declaration at 473/9.

Good luck Burns and Hameed

[alfie]

The India series in India is the India series not much to glean, but this test does continue England's complete inability to seize the moment in games where they have an opportunity. In both their defeats to India at home, they had leads. In the first Test here it would have been hardly deserved, but they had a chance to make a real game of it when they were effectively -50/2 with two set batsmen on the best batting and they rolled over. And today again, it was less of an opportunity than the other Tests, but at 300/5 there was a small window where maybe someone can make something happen, and they allow Alex Carey, who has 20 Test runs to his name , to walk all over them. Those weren't necessarily winning positions, so you wouldn't expect them to be 4-0 from those positions, but they really shouldn't be 0-4.

I'm not sure if it's on the coach or the captain, but someone isn't quite doing their job in terms of getting them to key in on big moments of play.

Agree with that (see I don't always oppose you , Raf ) . Something I've been on about a bit too , failure to seize the moment.

Think it is slightly dismissive of Carey to say they "allowed" him though. He did play quite well.

[msp83]

So Australia declaring at 473-9. Unless the rain gets into the act, there is time for Joe Root to walk out to the middle at the very least!

[JDizzle]

Let’s just get to 36 lads. Anything above that is a success!

[GSC]

Got to think positively, if Hameed and Burns can see off the first 10 balls, the middle order has a real platform

[Mind the windows Tino.]

Got to think positively, if Hameed and Burns can see off the first 10 balls, the middle order has a real platform

l*l

[msp83]

Both openers off the mark in the first over itself, 7 already wiped clean off that 473.
Will be a bit of a challenge for Australia if Starc doesn't get his act together tonight, as they are without both skipper Cummins and Hazlewood

[msp83]

Jhie Richardson gets the new ball ahead of Neser. Isn't Neser more of a new ball bowler?

[msp83]

That was a good first over from Richardson, Hameed didn't look comfortable...

[Guest]

Burns isn’t very good in my estimations...

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Chris Silverwood in the changing rooms: "It's ok lads we expected this"

[JDizzle]

It’s got to be Crawley and Hameed in Melbourne. Burns still has a better record than most openers England have tried since 2012 (Christ), but it’s at the Ballance point when they dropped him in 2015 - he’s just been worked out by Starc.

[msp83]

Burns survived the first over, only to correct himself first ball next over from Starc!

[Mind the windows Tino.]

Chris Silverwood in the changing rooms: "It's ok lads we expected this"

He missed it. Was reading The Hungry Caterpillar at the time.

[msp83]

Starc continues to get his line right not quite regularly, and Hameed is staying positive, looking to score when he can, rather than getting into that survival only mode.

[Galted]

Chris Silverwood in the changing rooms: "It's ok lads we expected this"

He missed it. Was reading The Hungry Caterpillar at the time.

Shameless attempt to direct the conversation to your field of expertise.

[msp83]

Starc has done his obligatory taking out of Burns, would like to see a bit of Neser in action. Don't have much of an idea as to what kind of a bowler he's though he seems to be around the Australian setup for quite some time...

[Mind the windows Tino.]

Chris Silverwood in the changing rooms: "It's ok lads we expected this"

He missed it. Was reading The Hungry Caterpillar at the time.

Shameless attempt to direct the conversation to your field of expertise.

l*l

[GSC]

Guess Burns will be replaced for the next test too absent a score when England go again tomorrow

[Pal Joey]

Starc has done his obligatory taking out of Burns, would like to see a bit of Neser in action. Don't have much of an idea as to what kind of a bowler he's though he seems to be around the Australian setup for quite some time...

There you go. A nice start to his Test career. A dream come true.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

a full 6.2 overs for Root to put his feet up

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