England: Autumn Internationals

First topic message reminder :

England squad for autumn Tests:

Forwards: Jamie Blamire (Newcastle), Callum Chick (Newcastle), Jamie George (Saracens), Tom Curry (Sale), Trevor Davison (Newcastle), Nic Dolly (Leicester), Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins), Charlie Ewels (Bath), Ellis Genge (Leicester), Jonny Hill (Exeter), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton), Joe Marler (Harlequins), George Martin (Leicester), Sam Simmonds (Exeter), Kyle Sinckler (Bristol), Will Stuart (Bath), Sam Underhill (Bath)

Backs: Mark Atkinson (Gloucester), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Tommy Freeman (Northampton), George Furbank (Northampton), Max Malins (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester), Raffi Quirke (Sale), Adam Radwan (Newcastle), Harry Randall (Bristol), Henry Slade (Exeter), Marcus Smith (Harlequins), Freddie Steward (Leicester), Manu Tuilagi (Sale), Joe Marchant (Quins), Ben Youngs (Leicester)

In Positions:
1.Marler, Genge
2.George, Blamire, Dolly
3.Sinckler, Stuart, Davison
4.Itoje, Hill
5.Lawes, Ewels
6.Curry, Martin
7.Underhill, Ludlam
8.Dombrandt, Simmonds, Chick

9.Youngs, Randall, Quirke
10.Smith

11.May, Radwan
12.Farrell, Atkinson
13.Tuilagi, Slade
14.Freeman, Marchant
15.Steward, Malins, Furbank
-------------------------------------------------
England v Tonga - 6th November
England v Australia - 13th November
England v South Africa - 20th November

So they'll just keep retesting him until he tests negative and then play him....

I don't think Farrell will be playing if he's considered a risk and I think the knowledge we have of the virus is much more nuanced than it was.

But I can't see him playing now, and you would have thought there will be issues over who he's been in contact with. The game will be under threat.

The problem is that Smith is possibly not at 100%. Furbank at 10 to start? (Or do they give Ford a call...)

If he doesnt play, then he has to quarantine for 10 days so misses the next game also.

It's an odd situation as you wouldn't normally be tested in the community unless you had symptoms. Farrell is one of those who has had 2 doses of vaccine so would be free to carry on as normal, so another negative test would be fitting with the (granted useless) approach of the Government.

Ford may well be called up but it'll be Australia as the earliest.

If he quarantines and Quirke recovers we could see a backline next week of Quirke Smith Tuilagi Slade. Steward at 15 and the speedsters on the wings.

I think we'd all be excited about that.

Fingers crossed for Farrell that he is alright or it is a false positive.

It does put several things into question like what players he was in contact with and who should be isolating. He should not be playing having tested positive so close to the match. Are Tonga all fully vaccinated? Would hate for them to play England and have an outbreak in their camp through no fault of their own.

As mentioned by others, England could call up Ford last minute or put Furbank into 10 for a half and bring Marchant onto the bench. Ultimately, these are friendlies with little riding on them and there is no point risking a spread.

The thought of Farrell potentially being out is an odd one. I cannot remember the last time we went into a genuinely competitive game (e.g. not tier 2) without him. Whatever else you may think about him, the bloke is made of granite.

I have seen a tweet that Furbank is in line to start if Farrell doesn't make it, with Atkinson on the bench.

lostinwales wrote:I have seen a tweet that Furbank is in line to start if Farrell doesn't make it, with Atkinson on the bench.

If that is true, it would suggest to me that Smith is indeed injured and you have to ask why is he even in the matchday squad? If he isn't injured, this move would really boil my pi$$.

Cumbrian wrote:

lostinwales wrote:I have seen a tweet that Furbank is in line to start if Farrell doesn't make it, with Atkinson on the bench.

If that is true, it would suggest to me that Smith is indeed injured and you have to ask why is he even in the matchday squad?  If he isn't injured, this move would really boil my pi$$.

I think Smith is borderline but the lack of training time this week is the biggest factor

I agree LIW, clearly Smith is not fit for a full 80 mins.

Clearly Jones rates Furbank as a playmaker...and like it or not...Jones does know his stuff. If Furbank plays there, its purely for one game and it "shouldnt" be an issue v Tonga.

It will also give us a chance to see just how good his playmaking skills are for the 15 spot.

Whose twitter?

RugbyInsideLine?

GeordieFalcon wrote:I agree LIW, clearly Smith is not fit for a full 80 mins.

Clearly Jones rates Furbank as a playmaker...and like it or not...Jones does know his stuff. If Furbank plays there, its purely for one game and it "shouldnt" be an issue v Tonga.

It will also give us a chance to see just how good his playmaking skills are for the 15 spot.  

There must be a real issue, or real reasons to be, with Marcus Smith.  It's a shame because I would have thought this was the perfect match to get acclimated before going against the big boys.   Farrell missing some matches don't confront me none, though he needs reps too. If Furbank plays 10 v. Tonga, outside of the core or more likely team getting a run out together, what's the problem?  And if he does well, what then????

Furbank isn't good enough. If he plays well, it's against Tonga, and if that means he gets further chances it's just blocking someone better.

Did Furbank do something to you in a prior life? He has earned his chance to show how he has improved this season. He takes it or he doesn't. We will find out. As I said some time ago, I didn't think he merited his call up a couple of years ago and was not surprised he was underwhelming. He is playing a lot better now.

It will be interesting to see him getting ball from Mitchell. I don't see Mitchell as an international level scrum half, but feeding Furbank would be his best chance to look good.

doctor_grey wrote:Did Furbank do something to you in a prior life?  He has earned his chance to show how he has improved this season.  He takes it or he doesn't.  We will find out.  As I said some time ago, I didn't think he merited his call up a couple of years ago and was not surprised he was underwhelming.  He is playing a lot better now.  

It will be interesting to see him getting ball from Mitchell.  I don't see Mitchell as an international level scrum half, but feeding Furbank would be his best chance to look good.  

You surprise me Doc, I think this year he has looked as good as anyone, his pass is sharper and longer, he keeps all defenses honest with his ability to find any little gap, his kicking has improved no end and he is probably the best supporting 9 in the Premiership, he doesn't just have the 30m pace of Randall types, but as he showed recently, enough pace to play on the wing. Plus he can tackle any thing that moves, albeit around the legs.

Just my opinion doc. He's not going to trouble anyone at fly half in the future a good performance will muddy water and potentially set others back. Mitchell is however a scrum half I really like but wouldn't say what's he done personally to you if that's your opinion!

Im not on the Randall hype train yet WPI....at times he looks like a little lost boy out there.

Mitchell will probably get a run out...and he wont do his chances any harm with a good performance.

Cumbrian wrote:The thought of Farrell potentially being out is an odd one.  I cannot remember the last time we went into a genuinely competitive game (e.g. not tier 2) without him.

The 2015 Six Nations. Ford at 10, with Burrell and Joseph outside him. Good enough to beat Wales in Cardiff, and put 55 points on France, but not up to beating Ireland in Dublin, so no Grand Slam. While Farrell was injured it looked like Lancaster was finally favouring Ford (Cipriani was on the bench). In the World Cup warm-up match against Ireland, England won, with Ford, Barrritt and Joseph in the midfield. One of the criticisms of Lancaster is that he lost his bottle, and went with Farrell rather than Ford at the World Cup, which was a mixed message for a squad which had spent most of the year with Ford at 10.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:The thought of Farrell potentially being out is an odd one.  I cannot remember the last time we went into a genuinely competitive game (e.g. not tier 2) without him.

The 2015 Six Nations. Ford at 10, with Burrell and Joseph outside him. Good enough to beat Wales in Cardiff, and put 55 points on France, but not up to beating Ireland in Dublin, so no Grand Slam. While Farrell was injured it looked like Lancaster was finally favouring Ford (Cipriani was on the bench). In the World Cup warm-up match against Ireland, England won, with Ford, Barrritt and Joseph in the midfield. One of the criticisms of Lancaster is that he lost his bottle, and went with Farrell rather than Ford at the World Cup, which was a mixed message for a squad which had spent most of the year with Ford at 10.

Decent Midfield that mind!

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Did Furbank do something to you in a prior life?  He has earned his chance to show how he has improved this season.  He takes it or he doesn't.  We will find out.  As I said some time ago, I didn't think he merited his call up a couple of years ago and was not surprised he was underwhelming.  He is playing a lot better now.  

It will be interesting to see him getting ball from Mitchell.  I don't see Mitchell as an international level scrum half, but feeding Furbank would be his best chance to look good.  

You surprise me Doc, I think this year he has looked as good as anyone, his pass is sharper and longer, he keeps all defenses honest with his ability to find any little gap, his kicking has improved no end and he is probably the best supporting 9 in the Premiership, he doesn't just have the 30m pace of Randall types, but as he showed recently, enough pace to play on the wing. Plus he can tackle any thing that moves, albeit around the legs.

It must be the air, mate. Just arrived in Her Majesty's blessed isles yesterday morn for the first time since the holidays in 2019! Or maybe my old man getting me p!ssed before dinner!

I think he still takes that little hop step to pass which can make his delivery slow. I think Quirke and perhaps Randall are a bit better. As you say, Mitchell is an excellent defender and has an eye for a quick break and is decisive (the single most important quality in a 9). I would be more than happy for Alex to prove me wrong. And playing with Furby (who has a lot of doubters) is a great opportunity for both to shine....

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just my opinion doc. He's not going to trouble anyone at fly half in the future a good performance will muddy water and potentially set others back. Mitchell is however a scrum half I really like but wouldn't say what's he done personally to you if that's your opinion!

It was a barnyard animal, but discretion prevents me from going into details....

Ha.

If Farrell is out makes captain an interesting proposition then. Curry, Lawes or Genge? The former for me.

Curry...

doctor_grey wrote:Did Furbank do something to you in a prior life?  He has earned his chance to show how he has improved this season.  He takes it or he doesn't.  We will find out.  As I said some time ago, I didn't think he merited his call up a couple of years ago and was not surprised he was underwhelming.  He is playing a lot better now.  

It will be interesting to see him getting ball from Mitchell.  I don't see Mitchell as an international level scrum half, but feeding Furbank would be his best chance to look good.  

Well I think that Goode might have made a decent FH where his lack of pace and general go forward (at international level) would not have been such an issue. As the mkII version it might also work out well for Furbank.

Furbank is much faster than Andy or Alex Goode. For me, though, the issue is not Furbank. Regardless of where or who he plays, he will be fine. The issue is whether we have COVID in the England camp. Not sure if Farrell’s positive test was validated in a second test or not. So this could potentially range from a single test to a lot of players exposed.

doctor_grey wrote:Furbank is much faster than Andy or Alex Goode.  For me, though, the issue is not Furbank.  Regardless of where or who he plays, he will be fine.  The issue is whether we have COVID in the England camp. Not sure if Farrell’s positive test was validated in a second test or not.  So this could potentially range from a single test to a lot of players exposed.  

Yes that is a significant concern and could conceivably wipe out the AI's

Does Furbank do the kicking for goal or will they ask Slade.

rosbif wrote:Does Furbank do the kicking for goal or will they ask Slade.

I think Slade has more experience. Furbank's stats indicate 2 penalties and 2 conversions in his career (3 of which have been this season).

Slade 44 kicks of which 13 this season

I would guess the more experienced kicker should get the job. Furbank did make two late penalty kicks to win the Exeter match, one from pretty far out wide.

[quote="yappysnap"It's difficult though to work out some of his reasoning behind selections going forward. Like at 10 we started years ago with Farrell then move towards more progressive rugby with Ford at 10 only to lose the RWC and suddenly Ford is out completely and Farrell is back at 10.[/quote]

We are more than 2 years on from the World Cup so I wouldn't say it has been a sudden change for Ford to be rested.  We have had 2 years of utter dross, although in fairness to Ford (and the other players), I think Eddie is to blame for this.

It doesn't look like Smith is 100% fit, so having made the call to drop Ford then Farrell was the only real option.  I agree though it is hard to work out Eddie's choice of Curry at no8.  Having to stand in the backfield waiting to field kicks from the opposition would seem to negate many of the good things Curry offers.  It must also dismay Dombrandt and Simmonds - they are both in great form, yet get overlooked for a very good player playing out of position.  Presumably this was part of the reason Zach Mercer gave up on England and went off to france.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ha.

If Farrell is out makes captain an interesting proposition then. Curry, Lawes or Genge? The former for me.

Gengey. He's really taken a step up at club level since taking on the captaincy.

How many players in the current squad have any recent experience as captain for a run of games?  Need captain and vice-captain.

Non that I can think of. The previous to farrel and Ford were Wood and Robshaw I think.

It has really been a long time. How about at Premiership level?

Of the current? Genge. And then I'm not sure. I merely threw the 3 out as they were the co captains.

Curry has captained Sale on occasion. Genge is club captain at Tigers (and showed genuine leadership in the Summer when Ludlow went missing). Don't think Lawes has but could be wrong.

I don't recall Lawes acting as captain, though there might have been a one off. Didn't Itoje captain Saracens? Can't think of anyone else.

doctor_grey wrote:How many players in the current squad have any recent experience as captain for a run of games?  Need captain and vice-captain.

Charlie Ewels is Bath Captain.

And Dombrandt has captained Quins whenever Stephan Lewies has been unavailable,

Very unlikely to jump ahead of the 3 already named though?

I don't understand why Itoje isn't captain, he's captained Saracens and has had very good reviews regarding his knowledge and communication, and he's an outstanding player.

Also does anyone know of any streams for this? Annoyingly even though I have prime TV the games aren't covered in NZ

yappysnap wrote:Also does anyone know of any streams for this? Annoyingly even though I have prime TV the games aren't covered in NZ

There is a replay on Sunday at 6:00pm on Sky sports 1. I presume this game clashes with as ABs v Italy. You will find all /most of the other games are broadcast live.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Also does anyone know of any streams for this? Annoyingly even though I have prime TV the games aren't covered in NZ

There is a replay on Sunday at 6:00pm on Sky sports 1. I presume this game clashes with as ABs v Italy. You will find all /most of the other games are broadcast live.

Sweet cheers

Dont like the lack of news. This is going to get cancelled I feel.

It will only get cancelled if there are more positive tests, or if Tonga withdraw. The closer it gets to kick off the less likely they will be to call it off as people will be travelling to Twickenham.

Most likely scenario is Farrell misses out

I would think it is too late to cancel,now, surely supporters will already be on their way.

Just passed through Waterloo Station and there are a lot of England supporters on their way to HQ.