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English 6 Nations

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 05 Jan 2022, 2:52 pm

First topic message reminder :

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/jan/05/six-nations-rugby-covid-rob-baxter

A potential answer to a potential problem. Baxter has said that if there is a risk of cancellations or playing in front of 1 man and his dog you may as well play all the games in England.

I suppose an interesting suggestion. If they could agree a slice of revenue from whichever grounds would host along with some teams giving up home advantage would people want to see this? It doesn't reduce the risk at all, merely increases it surely, gives England an advantage. It's unlikely the Government will bring in further restrictions as their hands are tied by the back benchers so reduces the risk of last minute changes. Just a big melting pot of cross contamination.


'Rob Baxter, Exeter’s director of rugby, believes that playing this season’s Six Nations in one country has “got to be better than cancelling it”.

The tournament is due to kick off in Dublin and Edinburgh on 5 February but currently finds itself shrouded in uncertainty. Under current Welsh Government restrictions imposed due to the pandemic and, specifically, the omicron variant, Wales would have to play scheduled home games against Scotland, France and Italy behind closed doors. Scotland are in a similar position for games at Murrayfield, while it has been reported that Wales could consider moving their home against Scotland, France and Italy to England.

Financial implications of behind-closed-doors home games for the Welsh Rugby Union would be significant. They faced an identical situation for last season’s tournament, with the shutters being down for matches against Ireland and England. Full crowds were, however, allowed at the Principality Stadium for Wales’ recent Autumn Nations Series before fresh restrictions took effect from Boxing Day.

Capacity crowds are currently allowed in England, provided spectators can prove full vaccination status or provide a negative lateral flow test. Against such a backdrop, playing the whole competition – it takes place across five weekends between early February and mid-March – in one country with permitted crowds has also been mooted in some quarters.

“The whole beauty of the Six Nations has been that change of environment, that change of weather conditions, going to play in Scotland, Wales, Ireland – those are the great challenges,” said Baxter. “That’s what makes the Six Nations such a great competition to win. You’ve seen French teams in that one week they can beat anyone in the world in Paris, and then the next week it doesn’t go quite so well in Cardiff. That’s the beauty of the tournament, that’s what from a rugby perspective I am sure we would all want to see happen.

“That said, we can’t all sit here and pretend the world is in an ideal place at the moment. For the national bodies, their responsibility goes beyond the professional sport, it goes right down to grassroots rugby, so if playing the tournament provides a level of income that cancelling it or no crowds doesn’t create, then we’ve got to look at the next best scenario. If the next best scenario is playing it in one country, where you can have sellout crowds, you can raise some revenue and you can keep that income stream going for all the bodies, then it’s got to be better than cancelling it.


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“I think with every sporting body, it’s revenue that is the biggest thing that has been damaged, so anything that can keep revenue online has got to be preferable to just binning things for a season,” Baxter added. “We’ve all had to try and find a way to keep going, to try and keep revenue coming in. It’s the same with any business, you’ve got to explore those options.”

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Post by king_carlos Mon 17 Jan 2022, 2:28 pm

Hetherell qualifies through parentage doesn't he? I.e. he qualified for British citizenship at birth. There's a huge difference between that and residency. If a person qualifies for citizenship at birth it's only reasonable and right for them to qualify to represent that country regardless of where they were born, grew up, played their youth rugby and what accent they might have.

I honestly know nothing of him as a player.

7.5 is right that Jones has always looked at a lot of players in training squads though. It's a tactic I like. Rating players from club performances isn't the infallible process that people who scream about form often suggest it is. There's just too many variables. What quality of teammates and side are they in? Does their clubs systems and tactics suit their strengths and hide their flaws? Would their skills that work in club rugby translate to international rugby? Do they play in the Champions Cup against the top European sides? Etc etc.

Bringing players into camp so you can judge them against established internationals is the right thing to do. It's not perfect of course, players need to be introduced gradually and in a smart way to that tougher environment - see Sam Jones and Beno Obano sadly. Overall it's a good system though I think. Bring them into camp, see if they can step up, if they do then brilliant, if they don't then given them a clear explanation of what needs improving, send them back to club rugby and see how they respond. To me that seems a very good system.

It's what NZ did under Henry and Hansen to great success. Wayne Smith, one of the most important coaches in the pro era, was a huge advocate of that as well. If you want players to get ready for international rugby before capping them they need the best idea of what is required without pulling the shirt on.

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Post by mountain man Mon 17 Jan 2022, 2:39 pm

Fair enough, I also don't have a clue about him as a player I was just making a point about qualification which no doubt has been done to death so I'll leave it there!

If a player qualifies then it's only right Jones gets chance to evaluate them.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 17 Jan 2022, 2:43 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Play to the rules. We've not doing a Wales/Scotland thing of picking players who don't qualify for us. You can't expect Jones to just ignore players who are eligible when its overall his job on the line. If the RFU wanted to ban players who were born abroad I assume they could, but it wouldn't be a good look.

i can if the players hes looking at are not an improvement on the players on English players he deems not good enough...

Ie Ludlum is a cracking player...and i doubt this guy would be any improvement.

Anyway...pure speculation...until tomorrow.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 17 Jan 2022, 2:48 pm

That's not ignoring them. That's making a judgment and selecting who he things are best to make up the squad. And as stated I don't think any of us have seen enough of him to make the judgment ourselves. Think its Wednesday for the squad announcement.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 17 Jan 2022, 2:58 pm

Just a reminder of the last squad (Independant):

Jamie Blamire (Newcastle Falcons, 2 caps)
Callum Chick (Newcastle Falcons, 2 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 33 caps)
Trevor Davison (Newcastle Falcons, 1 cap)
Nic Dolly (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins, 1 cap)
Harry Elrington (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 23 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 30 caps)
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, 9 caps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 48 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 87 caps)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 10 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 72 caps)
George Martin (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs, 7 caps)
Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 44 caps)
Jack Singleton (Gloucester Rugby, 3 caps)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 12 caps)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 24 caps)
Backs:

Mark Atkinson (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
Tommy Freeman (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
George Furbank (Northampton Saints, 4 caps)
Max Malins (Saracens, 8 caps)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 66 caps)
Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Raffi Quirke (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Adam Radwan (Newcastle Falcons, 1 cap)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 40 caps)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 2 caps)
Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 2 caps)
Manu Tuilagi (Sale Sharks, 43 caps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 109 caps)


Re backrow options I wouldn't exactly shed a tear should Chick, Ludlam or Simmonds not be there any long to make way for the aforementioned Hatherell, Barbeary and one other.

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Post by mountain man Mon 17 Jan 2022, 3:04 pm

You don't rate Sam Simmonds? I think Dombrandt should be starting 8 with Simmonds on bench as 8. Him coming on at 60 mins against a tiring opposition could cause havoc.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 17 Jan 2022, 3:08 pm

I rate him, but not as highly as I do others. He wouldn't be in my match day squad.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 17 Jan 2022, 3:39 pm

Blamire wont be in it.

His throws v Biaritz were horrendous!

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 17 Jan 2022, 3:41 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just a reminder of the last squad (Independant):

Jamie Blamire (Newcastle Falcons, 2 caps)
Callum Chick (Newcastle Falcons, 2 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 33 caps)
Trevor Davison (Newcastle Falcons, 1 cap)
Nic Dolly (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins, 1 cap)
Harry Elrington (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 23 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 30 caps)
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, 9 caps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 48 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 87 caps)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 10 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 72 caps)
George Martin (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs, 7 caps)
Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 44 caps)
Jack Singleton (Gloucester Rugby, 3 caps)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 12 caps)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 24 caps)
Backs:

Mark Atkinson (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
Tommy Freeman (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
George Furbank (Northampton Saints, 4 caps)
Max Malins (Saracens, 8 caps)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 66 caps)
Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Raffi Quirke (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Adam Radwan (Newcastle Falcons, 1 cap)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 40 caps)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 2 caps)
Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 2 caps)
Manu Tuilagi (Sale Sharks, 43 caps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 109 caps)


Re backrow options I wouldn't exactly shed a tear should Chick, Ludlam or Simmonds not be there any long to make way for the aforementioned Hatherell, Barbeary and one other.

What has he remotely done to warrant being in the England 6 n squad yet?

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Post by lostinwales Mon 17 Jan 2022, 3:42 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Blamire wont be in it.

His throws v Biaritz were horrendous!

He's the next guy on the list but it will really depend on George's fitness and if he has been formally accepted back into the fold. If he's picked it should just be LCD then George in the matchday squads.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 17 Jan 2022, 4:03 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Re backrow options I wouldn't exactly shed a tear should Chick, Ludlam or Simmonds not be there any long to make way for the aforementioned Hatherell, Barbeary and one other.

What has he remotely done to warrant being in the England 6 n squad yet?
To be fair he looks like the most naturally destructive ball carrier in contact England have produced in a good few years. Plus he's good at the breakdown. And just put in a fantastic 80 minute performance as Wasps beat a good Toulouse side with 14 men.

Seems worth a look at to me.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 17 Jan 2022, 4:08 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Just a reminder of the last squad (Independant):

Jamie Blamire (Newcastle Falcons, 2 caps)
Callum Chick (Newcastle Falcons, 2 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 33 caps)
Trevor Davison (Newcastle Falcons, 1 cap)
Nic Dolly (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins, 1 cap)
Harry Elrington (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 23 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 30 caps)
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, 9 caps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 48 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 87 caps)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 10 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 72 caps)
George Martin (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs, 7 caps)
Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 44 caps)
Jack Singleton (Gloucester Rugby, 3 caps)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 12 caps)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 24 caps)
Backs:

Mark Atkinson (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
Tommy Freeman (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
George Furbank (Northampton Saints, 4 caps)
Max Malins (Saracens, 8 caps)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 66 caps)
Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Raffi Quirke (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Adam Radwan (Newcastle Falcons, 1 cap)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 40 caps)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 2 caps)
Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 2 caps)
Manu Tuilagi (Sale Sharks, 43 caps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 109 caps)


Re backrow options I wouldn't exactly shed a tear should Chick, Ludlam or Simmonds not be there any long to make way for the aforementioned Hatherell, Barbeary and one other.

What has he remotely done to warrant being in the England 6 n squad yet?

Hes just a class player. Just get him in. I will be more surprised if he's not there to be honest. Sorry you were right squad announced tomorrow.

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Post by mountain man Mon 17 Jan 2022, 4:18 pm

Barbeary had a stormer on Saturday but if he's in who's out? Jones not going to leave out Curry or Lawes or Underhill. Fortunately back row is a real area of strength for England but then that brings it's own problem of who to pick and who gets left out. That's starting XV or 23, the question of whether he should be selected for wider squad should be foregone conclusion but then we all thought that about a certain M Smith for quite some time until Jones finally saw sense.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 17 Jan 2022, 4:23 pm

Barbeary will be sat next to Nowell and Manu on the physio bench as soon as you can say sick note.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 17 Jan 2022, 4:27 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Barbeary will be sat next to Nowell and Manu on the physio bench as soon as you can say sick note.

Anyone can be injured in rugby. You just don't rate him because of that?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 17 Jan 2022, 4:28 pm

mountain man wrote:Barbeary had a stormer on Saturday but if he's in who's out? Jones not going to leave out Curry or Lawes or Underhill. Fortunately back row is a real area of strength for England but then that brings it's own problem of who to pick and who gets left out. That's starting XV or 23, the question of whether he should be selected for wider squad should be foregone conclusion but then we all thought that about a certain M Smith for quite some time until Jones finally saw sense.

My starring back row would be underhill Curry and Dombrandt with Barbeary on the bench.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 17 Jan 2022, 4:29 pm

No i want to see him play a good consistent number of games without getting injured...same as Nowell and Manu before being considered.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 17 Jan 2022, 4:30 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
mountain man wrote:Barbeary had a stormer on Saturday but if he's in who's out? Jones not going to leave out Curry or Lawes or Underhill. Fortunately back row is a real area of strength for England but then that brings it's own problem of who to pick and who gets left out. That's starting XV or 23, the question of whether he should be selected for wider squad should be foregone conclusion but then we all thought that about a certain M Smith for quite some time until Jones finally saw sense.

My starring back row would be underhill Curry and Dombrandt with Barbeary on the bench.

Prepare to be disappointed then

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 17 Jan 2022, 4:36 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:No i want to see him play a good consistent number of games without getting injured...same as Nowell and Manu before being considered.

Prepare to be disappointed then!

What team would you be hoping for for Scotland then Geordie.

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Post by mountain man Mon 17 Jan 2022, 4:40 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
mountain man wrote:Barbeary had a stormer on Saturday but if he's in who's out? Jones not going to leave out Curry or Lawes or Underhill. Fortunately back row is a real area of strength for England but then that brings it's own problem of who to pick and who gets left out. That's starting XV or 23, the question of whether he should be selected for wider squad should be foregone conclusion but then we all thought that about a certain M Smith for quite some time until Jones finally saw sense.

My starring back row would be underhill Curry and Dombrandt with Barbeary on the bench.

That would be mine as well but you just know Jones will stick with Curry at 8.

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Post by Mr Bounce Mon 17 Jan 2022, 4:55 pm

I think a lot depends on what Jones wants to do with Underhill. He's certainly not afraid to drop big name players, and Sam has not been in great form this winter in the stuttering Bath side. He is a class player, just not at his best right now.

I think there's the potential to see a back row of Lawes/Curry/Dombrandt with Simmonds on the bench. And if Farrell isn't back it'll either be Lawes retaining the armband or he'll give it to Curry.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 17 Jan 2022, 4:55 pm

I have a feeling ill have to put up with Lawes there.

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Post by Poorfour Mon 17 Jan 2022, 5:20 pm

Wouldn't be surprised to see Eddie have a look at Barbeary in camp. Would be surprised to see him play rather than be sent back to Wasps with a detailed list of work-ons.

Except when forced by injury, Eddie's been pretty consistent in setting clear development targets for bright prospects before he'll let them in the matchday squad.
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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 17 Jan 2022, 9:09 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:No i want to see him play a good consistent number of games without getting injured...same as Nowell and Manu before being considered.

Prepare to be disappointed then!

What team would you be hoping for for Scotland then Geordie.

Hope and expect is very different.

I hope Manu is injury free from now on...I expect very different.
I'd like to see what Isiekwe and particularly the heavy duty Ribbans could do alongside Itoje but expect we wont see it
Id like to see Sinkler comeback to form with a bang but expect we wont....
Etc etc

I expect to see:
1 Marler
2 George / LCD
3 Sinkler
4 itoje
5 Hill
6 Lawes
7 Underhill
8 Curry (Dombrandt on Bench)

9 Youngs
10 Smith
11 May
12 Manu if fit otherwise Farrell even if half fit
13 Slade
14 Malins
15 Steward

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Post by Rugby Fan Tue 18 Jan 2022, 1:09 am

On the Times rugby podcast, Stephen Jones was pre-emptively disgusted with Eddie Jones' squad selection. He believes the England coach doesn't take the challenge of achieving a Grand Slam seriously, and spends too much time trying to uncover new talent. That's an odd accusation to level at him, given how rare it is for Eddie to change his matchday squad. If anything, the rugby public was crying out for him to select more new players last year.

Stephen Jones was probably reacting to rumours among rugby journalists about some uncapped surprises in the squad. Geordie's fears about Hatherell may yet be realized, while Hassell-Collins and Goodrick-Clark from London Irish are others mentioned in that pod.

England supporters are almost all afflicted with Fear of Missing Out, where we can't shake the feeling there are unselected players who would make all the difference. Don Armand was probably the first such cause celebre during Eddie's tenure, and Sam Simmonds the most recent.

Given the back row options available now, there are going to be some good players who won't get a look-in. Even Brad Shields is showing ample evidence these days of why he was considered a World Cup option, before he got injured. Consensus opinion used to be that playing Lawes on the blind side was a terrible mistake, and yet he's now first choice there for many, which inevitably reduces the opportunities for others.

Anyone know anything about Goodrick-Clark? Sinckler hasn't been convincing at tighthead, so it would be good to have some more substantial back-ups.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 18 Jan 2022, 1:30 am

Goodrick-Clarke is a LH and looks a really solid prop to me. Rodd offers a point of difference at prop as he's very good at the breakdown but I'd say Goodrick-Clarke is a better scrummager than Rodd or Obano among the guys challenging Marler and Genge. He's a big, physical prop and does the basics well.

I wouldn't be upset at all to see Goodrick-Clarke get a squad place. I was surprised when Elrington was brought into the squad ahead of him in the Autumn. I don't think Elrington's a poor player by any measure but when he was at LI with Goodrick-Clarke he seemed second best and now he's at Gloucester I'd rate Rapava-Ruskin higher as well.

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Post by Rugby Fan Tue 18 Jan 2022, 5:10 am

Telegraph notes that Alfie Barbeary, Kyle Hatherell and Orlando Bailey, who are all said to be under consideration, are reputedly unvaccinated, which might mean they wouldn't be able to travel to away games in France and Italy.

If the plan is to use the Italian fixture for players outside the first choice matchday 23, then this could make a difference.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 18 Jan 2022, 6:05 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:No i want to see him play a good consistent number of games without getting injured...same as Nowell and Manu before being considered.

Prepare to be disappointed then!

What team would you be hoping for for Scotland then Geordie.

Hope and expect is very different.  

I hope Manu is injury free from now on...I expect very different.
I'd like to see what Isiekwe and particularly the heavy duty Ribbans could do alongside Itoje but expect we wont see it
Id like to see Sinkler comeback to form with a bang but expect we wont....
Etc etc

I expect to see:
1 Marler
2 George / LCD
3 Sinkler
4 itoje
5 Hill
6 Lawes
7 Underhill
8 Curry (Dombrandt on Bench)

9 Youngs
10 Smith
11 May
12 Manu if fit otherwise Farrell even if half fit
13 Slade
14 Malins
15 Steward

Yes they are. Is this what you're hoping to see then?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 18 Jan 2022, 6:07 am

Rugby Fan wrote:On the Times rugby podcast, Stephen Jones was pre-emptively disgusted with Eddie Jones' squad selection. He believes the England coach doesn't take the challenge of achieving a Grand Slam seriously, and spends too much time trying to uncover new talent. That's an odd accusation to level at him, given how rare it is for Eddie to change his matchday squad. If anything, the rugby public was crying out for him to select more new players last year.

Stephen Jones was probably reacting to rumours among rugby journalists about some uncapped surprises in the squad. Geordie's fears about Hatherell may yet be realized, while Hassell-Collins and Goodrick-Clark from London Irish are others mentioned in that pod.

England supporters are almost all afflicted with Fear of Missing Out, where we can't shake the feeling there are unselected players who would make all the difference. Don Armand was probably the first such cause celebre during Eddie's tenure, and Sam Simmonds the most recent.

Given the back row options available now, there are going to be some good players who won't get a look-in. Even Brad Shields is showing ample evidence these days of why he was considered a World Cup option, before he got injured. Consensus opinion used to be that playing Lawes on the blind side was a terrible mistake, and yet he's now first choice there for many, which inevitably reduces the opportunities for others.

Anyone know anything about Goodrick-Clark? Sinckler hasn't been convincing at tighthead, so it would be good to have some more substantial back-ups.

I've not seen one of Jones' picks in a fair while but he was always calling for the tough older players rather than youth as he likes to stand out to create clicks on his articles. Is he still wanting Attwood in the team?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 18 Jan 2022, 6:08 am

Rugby Fan wrote:Telegraph notes that Alfie Barbeary, Kyle Hatherell and Orlando Bailey, who are all said to be under consideration, are reputedly unvaccinated, which might mean they wouldn't be able to travel to away games in France and Italy.

If the plan is to use the Italian fixture for players outside the first choice matchday 23, then this could make a difference.

Bloody fruit loops.

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Post by mountain man Tue 18 Jan 2022, 8:38 am

Manu still isn't fit as far as I am aware, he's not played for Sale since autumn Int injury(correct if wrong) so can't see how he can be ready. No doubt be included in squad though. When he's fit he's GOT to be in side but as we all know he's rarely fit for long!

Johnny May had a pretty poor autumn series to put it mildly, is he still best option with likes of Radwan, Lynagh(he should be playing for Aus but that's another story), Nowell, Malins all in way better form.

And if a half fit Farrell is picked to play I'll despair...

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 18 Jan 2022, 9:02 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
Geordie's fears about Hatherell may yet be realized, while Hassell-Collins and Goodrick-Clark from London Irish are others mentioned in that pod.
.

I would welcome Goodrick Clark and Hassel Collins.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 18 Jan 2022, 9:05 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:No i want to see him play a good consistent number of games without getting injured...same as Nowell and Manu before being considered.

Prepare to be disappointed then!

What team would you be hoping for for Scotland then Geordie.

Hope and expect is very different.  

I hope Manu is injury free from now on...I expect very different.
I'd like to see what Isiekwe and particularly the heavy duty Ribbans could do alongside Itoje but expect we wont see it
Id like to see Sinkler comeback to form with a bang but expect we wont....
Etc etc

I expect to see:

1 Marler
2 George / LCD
3 Sinkler
4 itoje
5 Hill
6 Lawes
7 Underhill
8 Curry (Dombrandt on Bench)

9 Youngs
10 Smith
11 May
12 Manu if fit otherwise Farrell even if half fit
13 Slade
14 Malins
15 Steward

Yes they are. Is this what you're hoping to see then?

As I said that's what I expect to see....

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 18 Jan 2022, 9:09 am

mountain man wrote:Manu still isn't fit as far as I am aware, he's not played for Sale since autumn Int injury(correct if wrong) so can't see how he can be ready. No doubt be included in squad though. When he's fit he's GOT to be in side but as we all know he's rarely fit for long!

Johnny May had a pretty poor autumn series to put it mildly, is he still best option with likes of Radwan, Lynagh(he should be playing for Aus but that's another story), Nowell, Malins all in way better form.

And if a half fit Farrell is picked to play I'll despair...

This is the problem I have...can we build a side with players who are barely fit...then just drop them in when they are for the odd game here and there.

To be fair to him....it is one of the reasons Farrell has played 12 so many time.

Hopefully the next crop (there's about 5 kids who play 12) can produce one good 12...

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 18 Jan 2022, 9:18 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:No i want to see him play a good consistent number of games without getting injured...same as Nowell and Manu before being considered.

Prepare to be disappointed then!

What team would you be hoping for for Scotland then Geordie.

Hope and expect is very different.  

I hope Manu is injury free from now on...I expect very different.
I'd like to see what Isiekwe and particularly the heavy duty Ribbans could do alongside Itoje but expect we wont see it
Id like to see Sinkler comeback to form with a bang but expect we wont....
Etc etc

I expect to see:

1 Marler
2 George / LCD
3 Sinkler
4 itoje
5 Hill
6 Lawes
7 Underhill
8 Curry (Dombrandt on Bench)

9 Youngs
10 Smith
11 May
12 Manu if fit otherwise Farrell even if half fit
13 Slade
14 Malins
15 Steward

Yes they are. Is this what you're hoping to see then?

As I said that's what I expect to see....

Yeah, thought so. So I agree, different to the question!

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 18 Jan 2022, 10:19 am

Yeah, thought so. So I agree, different to the question!

Most will be the same as everyone else....

The issues are the following

3 - Sinklers form and body language
He just looks like he's not enjoying his rugby at the moment and his form shows it. But we have no competition.  

5 - Johnny Hill
He is showing signs of development at this level but is it enough or fast enough. He will get this tournament and he needs to really impose himself physically...he's a big guy.

8 - I want Dombrandt...his around game and also an additional line out option. But Eddie seems unconvinced to start him yet. Hence why I believe Curry will start at 8.

12  - Manu unfit, Farrell unfit and is he going to be phased out. But who else is there....Atkinson? Tenp stop gap..who is an actual 12...


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Post by king_carlos Tue 18 Jan 2022, 10:31 am

mountain man wrote:Manu still isn't fit as far as I am aware, he's not played for Sale since autumn Int injury(correct if wrong) so can't see how he can be ready. No doubt be included in squad though. When he's fit he's GOT to be in side but as we all know he's rarely fit for long!

Johnny May had a pretty poor autumn series to put it mildly, is he still best option with likes of Radwan, Lynagh(he should be playing for Aus but that's another story), Nowell, Malins all in way better form.

And if a half fit Farrell is picked to play I'll despair...
Born in Italy. Italian mother and Australian father. Lived in England for 16 of the 21 years he's been alive.

Should be playing for Australia...? Anything behind that other than his dads accent?

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Post by Poorfour Tue 18 Jan 2022, 10:33 am

3 - the media buzz is around Collier, who's been a bit of a forgotten man but this season is the standout English scrummaging TH. You lose Sinckler's flair in the loose, but given there are no weak packs in the 6N at the moment, I'm happy to trade that for solidity in the setpiece.

5 - a conundrum. To be fair, Hill was getting there in the AIs and probably deserves another shot. Not sure what Ribbans needs to do to get another look in - he has always impressed when I have seen him

8 - the quality of 8s in the tournament is so high that we will suffer without Dombrandt in the position. Curry is a fantastic player but I think would need to do a Dallaglio and reshape his body to be a top class international 8. Dombrandt is already there, perhaps not entirely comfortable at international level yet - but I think only needs a run of games to get there. The timing is a little off, and he's playing within himself at the moment, but if he can find the groove he will shine

12 - Will Atkinson be able to maintain form and fitness until RWC 23? If it looks like he can, then he looks like a good possible answer. I can't see Manu staying fit for long enough to last a full tournament. Farrell may have a role as a bench option but looks to be out of line with the emerging game plan. If not Atkinson, is it too early for Kelly?
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Post by lostinwales Tue 18 Jan 2022, 10:34 am

Not long to go.

Torygraph name checked Orlando Bailey. Might be one for the apprentice role and another hybrid 10/15. From last year's U20's I definitely think he has something but don't think he offers more than what we have.

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Post by Poorfour Tue 18 Jan 2022, 10:34 am

king_carlos wrote:
mountain man wrote:Manu still isn't fit as far as I am aware, he's not played for Sale since autumn Int injury(correct if wrong) so can't see how he can be ready. No doubt be included in squad though. When he's fit he's GOT to be in side but as we all know he's rarely fit for long!

Johnny May had a pretty poor autumn series to put it mildly, is he still best option with likes of Radwan, Lynagh(he should be playing for Aus but that's another story), Nowell, Malins all in way better form.

And if a half fit Farrell is picked to play I'll despair...
Born in Italy. Italian mother and Australian father. Lived in England for 16 of the 21 years he's been alive.

Should be playing for Australia...? Anything behind that other than his dads accent?

Quite. Poorfour Jr goes to the same school as Lynagh and his brothers. They are very much SW London by upbringing if not by ancestry, even if one brother has chosen to return to the land of his fathers.
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Post by lostinwales Tue 18 Jan 2022, 10:36 am

Poorfour wrote:3 - the media buzz is around Collier, who's been a bit of a forgotten man but this season is the standout English scrummaging TH. You lose Sinckler's flair in the loose, but given there are no weak packs in the 6N at the moment, I'm happy to trade that for solidity in the setpiece.

5 - a conundrum. To be fair, Hill was getting there in the AIs and probably deserves another shot. Not sure what Ribbans needs to do to get another look in - he has always impressed when I have seen him

8 - the quality of 8s in the tournament is so high that we will suffer without Dombrandt in the position. Curry is a fantastic player but I think would need to do a Dallaglio and reshape his body to be a top class international 8. Dombrandt is already there, perhaps not entirely comfortable at international level yet - but I think only needs a run of games to get there. The timing is a little off, and he's playing within himself at the moment, but if he can find the groove he will shine

12 - Will Atkinson be able to maintain form and fitness until RWC 23? If it looks like he can, then he looks like a good possible answer. I can't see Manu staying fit for long enough to last a full tournament. Farrell may have a role as a bench option but looks to be out of line with the emerging game plan. If not Atkinson, is it too early for Kelly?

I don't think Atkinson is good enough. He's OK and won't let anyone down but he's a bit late period Jamie Roberts when the game has moved on.

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Post by mountain man Tue 18 Jan 2022, 10:38 am

Sinkler though always looks fed up, seems to walk around pitch looking annoyed. Not angry just looks like something isn't right but to me he's always had that body language.

Centres, if we assume Manu and Farrell unfit then maybe Slade and Marchant? Atkinson on bench. Talk maybe Nowell as possibly 13. Luke Northmore in mix?

Johnny Hill - up until last autumn Int games he never impressed me for England but in those games he actually showed some form he shows for Exeter. With George Kruis heading back to Prem be interesting to see if he gets another look for England. Likewise Launchbury when fit. It's always going to be Itoje plus a.n.other. As it happens I'd have Lawes in 2nd row with Itoje so then can have Underhill, Dombrandt, Curry in back row. Whether that makes 2nd row not weighty enough is only issue. Basically for me Lawes needs to play as does Itoje(of course) as does Curry and Dombrandt. The usual conundrum of fitting everyone in.
If only England were allowed to field 18 players we'd be sorted...

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 18 Jan 2022, 10:38 am

king_carlos wrote:
mountain man wrote:Manu still isn't fit as far as I am aware, he's not played for Sale since autumn Int injury(correct if wrong) so can't see how he can be ready. No doubt be included in squad though. When he's fit he's GOT to be in side but as we all know he's rarely fit for long!

Johnny May had a pretty poor autumn series to put it mildly, is he still best option with likes of Radwan, Lynagh(he should be playing for Aus but that's another story), Nowell, Malins all in way better form.

And if a half fit Farrell is picked to play I'll despair...
Born in Italy. Italian mother and Australian father. Lived in England for 16 of the 21 years he's been alive.

Should be playing for Australia...? Anything behind that other than his dads accent?

And that point neatly sums up the issues around any issues on qualification:

'Hetherell qualifies through parentage doesn't he? I.e. he qualified for British citizenship at birth. There's a huge difference between that and residency. If a person qualifies for citizenship at birth it's only reasonable and right for them to qualify to represent that country regardless of where they were born, grew up, played their youth rugby and what accent they might have.'

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 18 Jan 2022, 10:40 am

Poorfour wrote:3 - the media buzz is around Collier, who's been a bit of a forgotten man but this season is the standout English scrummaging TH. You lose Sinckler's flair in the loose, but given there are no weak packs in the 6N at the moment, I'm happy to trade that for solidity in the setpiece.

5 - a conundrum. To be fair, Hill was getting there in the AIs and probably deserves another shot. Not sure what Ribbans needs to do to get another look in - he has always impressed when I have seen him

8 - the quality of 8s in the tournament is so high that we will suffer without Dombrandt in the position. Curry is a fantastic player but I think would need to do a Dallaglio and reshape his body to be a top class international 8. Dombrandt is already there, perhaps not entirely comfortable at international level yet - but I think only needs a run of games to get there. The timing is a little off, and he's playing within himself at the moment, but if he can find the groove he will shine

12 - Will Atkinson be able to maintain form and fitness until RWC 23? If it looks like he can, then he looks like a good possible answer. I can't see Manu staying fit for long enough to last a full tournament. Farrell may have a role as a bench option but looks to be out of line with the emerging game plan. If not Atkinson, is it too early for Kelly?

I like Collier alot, had injury issues for a few years didn't he? I'd have him on the bench, still think Sinckler is absolute quality.

Rumblings around Isiekwe so Lawes may be back at lock, which is better.

I like Kelly a lot too. Very solid defensively. Midfield could be down to who is vaccinated and gets a chance vs Italy?

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 18 Jan 2022, 10:40 am

Poor four,

I'd happily lose Sinklers flair for some real top notch scrummaging. What we lose in Sinkler we gain far more with an 8 like Dombrandt anyway.

Let Sinkler refind his mojo.

I agree about Ribbans..bit clearly Jones isn't Impressed.
There's alot to like about Johnny Hills game at prem and European level...I guess Jones wants to really see that at International level.

Post WC we have about 5-6 potential 12s coming through....surely just one of them can really make the grade. Up till then..any ones guess.

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Post by mountain man Tue 18 Jan 2022, 10:41 am

king_carlos wrote:
mountain man wrote:Manu still isn't fit as far as I am aware, he's not played for Sale since autumn Int injury(correct if wrong) so can't see how he can be ready. No doubt be included in squad though. When he's fit he's GOT to be in side but as we all know he's rarely fit for long!

Johnny May had a pretty poor autumn series to put it mildly, is he still best option with likes of Radwan, Lynagh(he should be playing for Aus but that's another story), Nowell, Malins all in way better form.

And if a half fit Farrell is picked to play I'll despair...
Born in Italy. Italian mother and Australian father. Lived in England for 16 of the 21 years he's been alive.

Should be playing for Australia...? Anything behind that other than his dads accent?

Just with his father being a famous Australian RWC winner, I'm sure they've talked. Look he absolutely qualifies for Eng so if he plays then fine but just would seem odd to me.

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Post by lostinwales Tue 18 Jan 2022, 10:46 am

six new faces in the squad: Orlando Bailey, Alfie Barbeary, Ollie Chessum, Tommy Freeman, Ollie Hassell-Collins and Luke Northmore.

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Post by lostinwales Tue 18 Jan 2022, 10:47 am

FORWARDS

Alfie Barbeary (Wasps, uncapped)
Jamie Blamire (Newcastle Falcons, 5 caps)
Ollie Chessum (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 31 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 36 caps)
Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins, 4 caps)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 26 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 31 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 61 caps)
Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers, 2 caps)
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, 12 caps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 51 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 90 caps)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 10 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 74 caps)
Bevan Rodd (Sale Sharks, 2 caps)
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs, 9 caps)
Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 47 caps)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 15 caps)

BACKS

Mark Atkinson (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
Orlando Bailey (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 94 caps)
Tommy Freeman (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
George Furbank (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Ollie Hassell-Collins (London Irish, uncapped)
Max Malins (Saracens, 10 caps)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, 7 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 69 caps)
Luke Northmore (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 34 caps)
Raffi Quirke (Sale Sharks, 2 caps)
Harry Randall (Bristol Bears, 2 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 43 caps)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 5 caps)
Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 5 caps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 112 caps)


Last edited by lostinwales on Tue 18 Jan 2022, 10:58 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by king_carlos Tue 18 Jan 2022, 10:48 am

Poorfour wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
mountain man wrote:Manu still isn't fit as far as I am aware, he's not played for Sale since autumn Int injury(correct if wrong) so can't see how he can be ready. No doubt be included in squad though. When he's fit he's GOT to be in side but as we all know he's rarely fit for long!

Johnny May had a pretty poor autumn series to put it mildly, is he still best option with likes of Radwan, Lynagh(he should be playing for Aus but that's another story), Nowell, Malins all in way better form.

And if a half fit Farrell is picked to play I'll despair...
Born in Italy. Italian mother and Australian father. Lived in England for 16 of the 21 years he's been alive.

Should be playing for Australia...? Anything behind that other than his dads accent?

Quite. Poorfour Jr goes to the same school as Lynagh and his brothers. They are very much SW London by upbringing if not by ancestry, even if one brother has chosen to return to the land of his fathers.
The hilarious thing about most the fans I know who think Louis "should be playing for Australia" through parentage is that when it comes to other most players who qualify for a country through parentage they don't think they should be qualified.

As Michael is tied so indelibly to the Australian shirt his son should only wear the same shirt in some minds regardless of birth, his other parents nationality (I too was shocked to find out he had two parents, one was from a different country to the other and most confusingly hadn't even played international rugby) or his upbringing.

Absolutely startling to me. Louis is a really fascinating case study in why the rules have to be flexible to a degree in the modern world.

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Post by lostinwales Tue 18 Jan 2022, 10:48 am

No Tuilagi. Farrell is captain

No Radwan either (or Lynagh)


Last edited by lostinwales on Tue 18 Jan 2022, 10:51 am; edited 1 time in total

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