6 Nations Round 2 - Italy v England

Italy vs England

Stadio Olimpico, Rome
Sunday 13th of February 2022
Kick Off - 3pm


Italy Team

Padovani; Mori, Brex, Zanon, Ioane; Garbisi, Varney; Fischetti, Lucchesi, Petro Ceccarelli, Cannone, Ruzza, Steyn, Lamaro (capt), Halafihi.

Replacements: Faiva, Traore, Pasquali, Sisi, Negri, Pettinelli, Fusco, Marin.


England Team

Steward; Malins, Marchant, Slade, Nowell; Smith, Randall; Genge, George, Stuart, Ewels, Isiekwe, Itoje, Curry (capt), Dombrandt.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Marler, Sinckler, Chessum, Simmonds, Youngs, Ford, Daly.

My take......

I'd like to see players played in position, especially in the backs. You can't make that many positional changes and expect thing to be cohesive.

Players in:

A 12
At least 1 real winger, hopefully 2
A scrum half that can pass
A real 8
A physical 6

Sgt_Pooly wrote:My take......

I'd like to see players played in position, especially in the backs. You can't make that many positional changes and expect thing to be cohesive.

Players in:

A 12
At least 1 real winger, hopefully 2
A scrum half that can pass
A real 8
A physical 6

Assuming the same squad or close, we need a lump at 12. Manu is perfect if we can be sure of not breaking him inside the first 10 minutes.I am not sure that is the case.
Very few proper wings left, Freeman (hybrid), Malins (Hybrid) Nowell (something of a hybrid these days), Daly (hybrid), Ollie H-C (winger), Marchant (centre/hybrid). I don't think Nowell has the pace anymore to be an international wing, everything else, but not the pace. I would bench him and go with Freeman and Ollie H-C against Italy to see how they go. Two big very fast wingers.

Quirke deserves his chance to start and just see what he can do with Smith, what better game for it to be than against Italy. I think Randall has a major flaw, his kicking game is too wonky for International rugby. I would bring in Mitchell h=who is just as fast, has a good pass and can kick more reliably.

Well, Simmons is a real 8, but I suspect that you are looking for the lumpy kind, if Lawes is back then Simmons showed enough on Saturday to try him again, if not Dombrandt needs to play.

If Lawes is back then we are okay and the line out will improve, if not I thought Ludlam played as good as anybody Saturday and showed he can be relied on in the line out as a third jumper. Not many are more physical than Beserker Ludlam .

The other thing we need to improve on is the use of the bench, the removal of Smith was daft, he is probably the best game closer there is in England, look at the SA game. How many times has he pulled Quins out of the fire with last minutes moments of genius or nerveless kicking? The bringing on of Ewels! Why what for to slow the team down and Nowell, does EJ get paid by the number of caps the players win or something.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:My take......

I'd like to see players played in position, especially in the backs. You can't make that many positional changes and expect thing to be cohesive.

Players in:

A 12
At least 1 real winger, hopefully 2
A scrum half that can pass
A real 8
A physical 6

Agree on the wingers.
The scrum half debate has been done to death. All I'd say is that we do have choices now and all of them bring something

Simmonds is a real 8. We do need to give Dombrandt starts but I really am not convinced he would have made any difference at the weekend

Who do you have in mind for 6? Ludlam is pretty big already. Chessum? Lawes if he's fit? Isiekwe with someone else (Ewells?) coming into 2nd row?

I would say there is a danger of underestimating how well we 'mostly' did at the weekend, just like there is a danger of overestimating the impact of the changes we will make when we beat Italy next weekend.

Just play the U20's....

I'd look to bring one of Lawes/Martin/Chessum in at 6. Get rid of Ewells....maybe something like this:

1. Marler
2. LCD
3. Sinckler
4. Isiekwe
5. Itojie
6. Martin
7. Curry
8. Dombrandt

9. Quirke
10. Smith

11. OHC
12. Atkinson
13. Slade/Marchant
14. Radwan
15. Steward

16. George
17. Genge
18. Stewart
19. Chessum
20. Barbeary
21. Mitchell
22. Slade/Marchant
23. Freeman/Malins

Like it overall Sgt, why drop Genge after he was very good vs Scotland. I saw plenty of lines saying that the scrum of Scotland would give us issues and yet we were great there. Carried well too.

Genge was ok but Marler is the superior player by some distance for me and could do with a good run out.

Not rewarding form though, simply to give a run out for someone who has already played a lot of game time for Harlequins. I'd let Genge go and do his stuff against Italy as he will start against Wales. And he was better than ok. How many pens did the pack win in the scrum?

As said before although I think Atkinson can 'do a job' I can't help feeling playing him is a dead end as he has no future.

It is a fun team though.

(Martin not in the squad/ Freeman is crocked)

Like the idea of Radwan.  Last Saturday if there was one player you would want for a strike move from a scrum - Radwan would be my player.

I thought Simmons played OK but surely starting Dombrandt makes more sense and having Simmonds as an impact player or cover all back three roles (plus 12?).

Also I thought Ludlam played well and is physical.  A starting backrow of Ludlam, Curry and Dombrandt.

Lawes brings more line-out capability but this did not seem a problem until Isiekwe went off.  Maybe Lawes on the bench as 2nd row/backrow cover.

Italy were not terrible away to France (France played well once they got going).

Italy at home will not be a push-over particularly if England are tentative and not playing positively.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not rewarding form though, simply to give a run out for someone who has already played a lot of game time for Harlequins. I'd let Genge go and do his stuff against Italy as he will start against Wales. And he was better than ok. How many pens did the pack win in the scrum?

The scrum was an utter shambles on Saturday, the ref had no idea what he doing.....nobody in particularly got on top imo. Marler is the better player for me, I'd start my better player.....I think Genge offers more from the bench were his carrying is more effective.

I thought England were on top. It may well be my memory playing tricks but think there was 1 pen against us, the late scrum when we were down to 14. I get you think Marler is better but Genge was well on top.

I don't think he was.

The ref had zero control of the set piece in general.

All opinions end of the day.

Well quite. I have to say I'd agree with the ref that Scotland were struggling in the scrum. I'm sure it would do Genge the world of good to give Marler a run out as you say!

I read an article that gave the following scrum stats excluding the last debacle (haven't checked myself):

4 put-ins to England - 2 pens and 2 free kicks to England, 0 scrums completed
4 put-ins to Scotland - 1 pen (when down a man) and 1 free kick to Scotland, 2 scrums completed

Despite what Mr O said that paints a picture of England on top to me?

Heaf wrote:I read an article that gave the following scrum stats excluding the last debacle (haven't checked myself):

4 put-ins to England - 2 pens and 2 free kicks to England, 0 scrums completed
4 put-ins to Scotland - 1 pen (when down a man) and 1 free kick to Scotland, 2 scrums completed

Despite what Mr O said that paints a picture of England on top to me?

Just hopped up on ESPN and they indicate Scotland won 4/7 scrums and England 5/8. Combined with the pens/free kicks, to me, paints a picture of scrums as an utter shambles in general.

Because the Scottish were going down. I think they'll struggle vs Wales too; 1 area where i think Wales are stronger.

Those EPSN scrum stats surprise me - I don't remember England losing 3 on their own put-in ...

Heaf wrote:Those EPSN scrum stats surprise me - I don't remember England losing 3 on their own put-in ...

Maybe that includes losing the scrum to a pen as well? I wasn't sure Scotland had 7 scrums....

I'm not sure about any of those scrum stats tbh - we need a volunteer to go back and watch the whole match again as a quality check

I think England need to improve on last weeks game.

I do not know what this Atkinson looks like has a player
at centre people are saying he is good so give him a go, do not risk bringing Manu back in. Give Dombradnt a start at 8 Simmonds on the bench. Bring quirke in at 9 Randall on the bench drop Joungs out of this game.

Wingers???  If may unfit or ruled out bring Radwan in on one wing nowell on the other. who covers bench though? Marcus Smith back in at 10.

majesticimperialman wrote:I think England need to improve on last weeks game.

I do not know what this Atkinson looks like has a player
at centre people are saying he is good so give him a go, do not risk bringing Manu back in. Give Dombradnt a start at 8 Simmonds on the bench. Bring quirke in at 9 Randall on the bench drop Joungs out of this game.

Wingers???  If may unfit or ruled out bring Radwan in on one wing nowell on the other. who covers bench though? Marcus Smith back in at 10.

For me, if Atkinson is the only specialist inside centre in the squad, then he should start.

Updated from eng rugby

'England head coach Eddie Jones has named his squad for this week’s Guinness Six Nations match against Italy.

Joe Launchbury returns to the squad for the first time since December 2020. There is also a call up for Tom Pearson of London Irish.

Luke Northmore reported with a hamstring injury and is unable to train. Courtney Lawes is progressing through return to play protocols and Jonny Hill will be with the squad in camp to continue his rehab.

Forwards

Alfie Barbeary
Jamie Blamire  
Ollie Chessum
Luke Cowan-Dickie
Tom Curry
Alex Dombrandt
Charlie Ewels
Ellis Genge
Jamie George
Joe Heyes
Maro Itoje
Nick Isiekwe
Joe Launchbury
Courtney Lawes
Joe Marler
Tom Pearson (London Irish, uncapped)
Bevan Rodd
Sam Simmonds
Kyle Sinckler
Will Stuart

Backs

Mark Atkinson
Elliot Daly
George Ford
George Furbank
Ollie Hassell Collins
Louis Lynagh (Harlequins, uncapped)
Max Malins
Joe Marchant
Jack Nowell
Raffi Quirke
Adam Radwan
Harry Randall
Henry Slade
Marcus Smith
Freddie Steward
Ben Youngs'

Pearson any good? I know he's there to make up the numbers this time but wondering if he has a future. I can see he is very young and big

Great to see Launchbury back, feels like it's been years since he played. I've no idea if he'll make it into the matchday team but he has experience and proven quality on his side, or at least he did.

lostinwales wrote:Pearson any good? I know he's there to make up the numbers this time but wondering if he has a future. I can see he is very young and big

He's very good. Was playing Uni rugby last year, but has made a big impression. Was the best player on the pitch in both GP wins against Exeter.  Will be holding tackle bags here, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him pick up a cap or two at some point.

yappysnap wrote:Great to see Launchbury back, feels like it's been years since he played. I've no idea if he'll make it into the matchday team but he has experience and proven quality on his side, or at least he did.

I hope so, he's a class act. Perhaps move Isiekwe to 6 and bring in Dombrandt to 8......gives us a bit of grunt around the park. I really hope Barbeary makes the squad.

I feel I'm going to be disappointed. All Jones has really said post game is that we didn't execute as well as we should (kinda fair but the tactics of grubbers in the 22 weren't the most threatening;and thats when we had numbers Daly and Malins a few times) and that we lacked experience. I've nailed my colours in saying yes we should have won that game but I really don't think selections and particularly the use of the bench helped us. The second point, made in reference to Launchbury I do understand, the old Alan Hansen point of you win nothing with kids but...There's a lot to be said for A. youthful exuberance and B. picking the players that most suit the way you want to play. I think we do sometimes get bogged down in numbers of caps etc

I would love Jones to pick a side based on what he wants to see them do and what they can do.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Great to see Launchbury back, feels like it's been years since he played. I've no idea if he'll make it into the matchday team but he has experience and proven quality on his side, or at least he did.

I hope so, he's a class act. Perhaps move Isiekwe to 6 and bring in Dombrandt to 8......gives us a bit of grunt around the park. I really hope Barbeary makes the squad.

That will work ok against Italy but against anyone else i'd worry about being over run at the breakdown. There was a reason why Curry was being selected at 8 when Lawes was playing 6.

Pack were fine against Scotland so any changes only really needed in backs barring injury replacements. On which note seeing as Ludlum is out(he had best ever game for Eng) bit suprised Launchbury is his replacement. Why not Barbeary.
I guess we're wasting time and energy hoping Ben Youngs might not be picked but if a miracle were to happen surely it's Quirke and Randall time. Surely.
Need a recognised 12, as it stands Atkinson fits bill, is in squad so give him a go. Get Radwen on wing, maybe OHC bench. Daley out, didn't do a lot right or wrong but know what he can and cannot do. I'd also have Odogwu on bench but probably never happen.

It's Italy so Eng should win and win well pretty much regardless who is picked. Issue is 23 for games after.

Dunno, feeling a bit despondent. Such much hope and potential but Jones isn't inspiring confidence at the moment with his team or substitutions.

mountain man wrote:Pack were fine against Scotland so any changes only really needed in backs barring injury replacements. On which note seeing as Ludlum is out(he had best ever game for Eng) bit suprised Launchbury is his replacement. Why not Barbeary.
I guess we're wasting time and energy hoping Ben Youngs might not be picked but if a miracle were to happen surely it's Quirke and Randall time. Surely.
Need a recognised 12, as it stands Atkinson fits bill, is in squad so give him a go. Get Radwen on wing, maybe OHC bench. Daley out, didn't do a lot right or wrong but know what he can and cannot do. I'd also have Odogwu on bench but probably never happen.

It's Italy so Eng should win and win well pretty much regardless who is picked. Issue is 23 for games after.

Dunno, feeling a bit despondent. Such much hope and potential but Jones isn't inspiring confidence at the moment with his team or substitutions.

There's the squad above, Barbeary is in it along with a LI backrower called Pearson. The likelihood is if Lawes is fit he plays there, or move Isiekwe.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:Pack were fine against Scotland so any changes only really needed in backs barring injury replacements. On which note seeing as Ludlum is out(he had best ever game for Eng) bit suprised Launchbury is his replacement. Why not Barbeary.
I guess we're wasting time and energy hoping Ben Youngs might not be picked but if a miracle were to happen surely it's Quirke and Randall time. Surely.
Need a recognised 12, as it stands Atkinson fits bill, is in squad so give him a go. Get Radwen on wing, maybe OHC bench. Daley out, didn't do a lot right or wrong but know what he can and cannot do. I'd also have Odogwu on bench but probably never happen.

It's Italy so Eng should win and win well pretty much regardless who is picked. Issue is 23 for games after.

Dunno, feeling a bit despondent. Such much hope and potential but Jones isn't inspiring confidence at the moment with his team or substitutions.

There's the squad above, Barbeary is in it along with a LI backrower called Pearson. The likelihood is if Lawes is fit he plays there, or move Isiekwe.

But that's not the match day 23 it's wider squad. My picks are for ones who might actually get on field not just hold a tackle bag or move cones around. Jones done this so many times, selects players many want to see playing but they don't ever feature. Then it's back to tried and test with a game plan to box kick ad nauseum.

mountain man wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:Pack were fine against Scotland so any changes only really needed in backs barring injury replacements. On which note seeing as Ludlum is out(he had best ever game for Eng) bit suprised Launchbury is his replacement. Why not Barbeary.
I guess we're wasting time and energy hoping Ben Youngs might not be picked but if a miracle were to happen surely it's Quirke and Randall time. Surely.
Need a recognised 12, as it stands Atkinson fits bill, is in squad so give him a go. Get Radwen on wing, maybe OHC bench. Daley out, didn't do a lot right or wrong but know what he can and cannot do. I'd also have Odogwu on bench but probably never happen.

It's Italy so Eng should win and win well pretty much regardless who is picked. Issue is 23 for games after.

Dunno, feeling a bit despondent. Such much hope and potential but Jones isn't inspiring confidence at the moment with his team or substitutions.

There's the squad above, Barbeary is in it along with a LI backrower called Pearson. The likelihood is if Lawes is fit he plays there, or move Isiekwe.

But that's not the match day 23 it's wider squad. My picks are for ones who might actually get on field not just hold a tackle bag or move cones around. Jones done this so many times, selects players many want to see playing but they don't ever feature. Then it's back to tried and test with a game plan to box kick ad nauseum.

In which case don't worry about Launchbury as he's not in the match day 23 yet just the wider squad. Saw a quoted stat by Charlie Morgan of the Torygraph saying on average Jones has given on average about 8.5 caps per player which is higher than the average, so sometimes it's about perception.

Launchbury is quality. When he's match fit and in form he's as good a 2nd row as anyone but my point is Ludlum flanker replaced by 2nd row. Obviously can assume they'll be a swop around maybe Isiekwe to backrow Launchbury to 2nd but is Launchbury who's been out for so long up to speed for an Int game. He played on weekend for Wasps, I only saw highlights not full match so dont' know his current form. Ideal world a fully fit and firing Launchbury be in 2nd row with Itoje for RWC. Perfect blend there.

Anyway, pack largely irrelevant for this. It's back line that needs sorting is my point.

I thought your point was why call up Launchbury and not Barbeary? To which I pointed that Barbeary is in the squad.

Besides, Pearson is the Ludlum replacement so a second row hasn't replaced a flanker. Launchbury being back fit is a bonus.

Im as excited about this match as i am of watching the falcons at the moment....

No 7&1/2 wrote:I thought your point was why call up Launchbury and not Barbeary? To which I pointed that Barbeary is in the squad.

It was more of a case Launchbury was said to be Ludlam replacement, that is what was reported. See headline here https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/60305750

But anyway that wasn't really my point, it was an aside. My main concern is backs for Italy but more so for other games

That's fine mm, simply helping you in regards to the updated squad. All the options bar Odogwu are in the squad too. Will be an interesting announcement on Friday. Half looking forward to it, half not.

Thanks, I hadn't seen that updated squad.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im as excited about this match as i am of watching the falcons at the moment....

It speaks volumes this forum completely ignored that France played Italy last weekend!

Given the choice I fancy Jones wouldve been happier to get them first and have a warm up game and the side settle a bit before the cauldron of Scotlandshire.

As it is this just feels like a no win. Hopefully though they will get more room to express themselves and see the best of Smith vs a scrambling defense. Hopefully see those kicks through weighted a touch better and a less well organised/level headed sweeper getting pressured for the ball.

The Italy games are often a real grind. Italy are competitive but usually lack the cutting edge needed to score points. So either we get a boring mess of a game where the margin on the scoreboard is narrow but never in doubt, or on rare occasions we get a try fest but 'it is only Italy'.

The danger with the latter is that we think it will just be a result of the changes from last week instead of the quality of the opposition.

Has EJ named is 23 yet? I read on news today Launchbery in but no room for Manu,
But did not notice if the 23 was named.

Wow that's a depressing update. Plodding along with Youngs again it seems. At least Radwan is back in but simply for H-C. Jones really didn't take anything on board.

Jamie Blamire (Newcastle Falcons, 5 caps)
Ollie Chessum, (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 32 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 37 caps)
Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins, 5 caps)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 27 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 32 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 62 caps)
Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers, 2 caps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 52 caps)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, 4 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 75 caps)
Bevan Rodd (Sale Sharks, 2 caps)
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs, 10 caps)
Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 48 caps)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 16 caps)

Backs

Elliot Daly (Saracens, 53 caps)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 78 caps)
Max Malins (Saracens, 11 caps)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, 8 caps)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 34 caps)
Adam Radwan (Newcastle Falcons, 2 caps)
Harry Randall (Bristol Bears, 2 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 44 caps)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 6 caps)
Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 6 caps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 113 caps)

No 7&1/2 wrote:I feel I'm going to be disappointed. All Jones has really said post game is that we didn't execute as well as we should (kinda fair but the tactics of grubbers in the 22 weren't the most threatening;and thats when we had numbers Daly and Malins a few times) and that we lacked experience. I've nailed my colours in saying yes we should have won that game but I really don't think selections and particularly the use of the bench helped us. The second point, made in reference to Launchbury I do understand, the old Alan Hansen point of you win nothing with kids but...There's a lot to be said for A. youthful exuberance and B. picking the players that most suit the way you want to play. I think we do sometimes get bogged down in numbers of caps etc

I would love Jones to pick a side based on what he wants to see them do and what they can do.

It's odd that Jones mentions execution and experience, when in the first half we dominated possession and a lot of the issues came from the more experienced players; Youngs, Daly and Slade all wasting opportunities with poor kicks, Youngs repeatedly kicked poorly in that first half. Experience cost us later in the game (you could argue) but certainly when we were in total control it wasn't the youngsters that kept botching things it was the guys who should be making that possession count.

Yup. Well he's rolled the dice and probably means he's going to start Ford to out things right!

If memory serves me right England have never lost to Italy in the 6nations. So if EJ is feeling confident of a win why not throw the uncapped players in and give the old hands a day off?

Here's a depressing thought - if Ewels gets a game this weekend he'll have more England caps than Tony Underwood...