SILLY SEASON TRANSFER RUMOURS 20/21

First topic message reminder :

GeordieFalcon wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:I think Schoeman has been injured for nearly all his time at Bath. Can play 10 and 15 though.

Chiefs look set to sign Leinster second row Dunne a 6ft8 122kg 21 year old for next season. Hasn't played this season yet due to an ankle injury. Replacement for one of the outgoing internationals it seems.

Just what we need!

At least your youngsters will get lots of game time.

Joe Taufete'e to Tigers. I'm absolutely delighted with that. Taufete'e is a terrific hooker and similar to Montoya in style given his carrying. With Genge departing having another front row in the squad who carries well will be a big boost.

Presumably this signing means that Dolly is out for a long while though on the downside. That injury from the croc roll looked really nasty at the time.

Borthwick blows a wad on hookers. Horton and Taufete'e in. Makes sense. Taufete'e is a good hooker agree with KC on him. Adding extra carrying ability to the front row is a canny move. Horton looks a good mobile hooker who played with Potter and Porter in Australia so should be a good short term option.

We won't see Montoya until end of November, start of December so additional bodies are a good idea. Dolly is unlikely to be back until a similar time as that injury was really nasty. TCD I can see being released back to Pirates after the AIs as well.

EQ Aussie fullback joins from the Poopie competition as well. Lachlan Shelley, played Australia under 20s but couldn't get a go further than the Tahs academy. Rapid with a good boot by the looks of things so he should be the Hegarty replacement.

Rumours of Fin Smith to Saints for the season after next. That could make sense for both parties IMO.

king_carlos wrote:Rumours of Fin Smith to Saints for the season after next. That could make sense for both parties IMO.

In theory, yes. Saints have tried before to sign their next generational flyhalf (Joel Hodgson, JJ Hanrahan) or develop their own (Grayson) but always seem to end up going for the experienced flyhalf in the squad.

Smith is an outstanding prospect. Would make a lot of sense to rotate him and Biggar for a year or two whilst Biggar winds down. Could be a great mentor for Smith. A coup for Saints if true because a lot of the Prem would have been interested.

Has the situation at Worcester been resolved as they hadnt been paying their players on time etc.

Christian Wade has given a couple of interviews recently. Curious to see if he tirns up in rugby again. His old club, Wasps, seems like a non-starter right now. His best bet for a high salary would probably be France or Japan, as most Premiership teams are cap-constrained. Then again, he won't be called away on international duty, so that could be attractive for an English team.

Rugby Fan wrote:Christian Wade has given a couple of interviews recently. Curious to see if he tirns up in rugby again. His old club, Wasps, seems like a non-starter right now. His best bet for a high salary would probably be France or Japan, as most Premiership teams are cap-constrained. Then again, he  won't be called away on international duty, so that could be attractive for an English team.

It's worth waiting until the season starts. There's still a bit of player movement going on. Any early long term injuries could quickly change a club's priorities. Tigers picked up Ashton mid season last season and he was a success, might be others will look for something similar. Japanese league doesn't kick off until January so as long as money isn't tight he can afford to wait and look.

Scott Sio, Ausssie Prop to Exeter.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Has the situation at Worcester been resolved as they hadnt been paying their players on time etc.

From the Torygraph

Worcester Warriors have been hit by a winding-up petition from HM Revenue & Customs over an unpaid tax bill, Telegraph Sport can reveal.

The taxman is seeking the Premiership club’s liquidation at a court hearing that could take place within weeks unless the club settles the debt.

Worcester said: “Worcester Warriors, along with many other businesses and most sports clubs have found the past two years extremely challenging owing to the Covid-19 pandemic and the rise in the cost of living.

“We retained our staff but lost income during the various lockdowns during which the overwhelming majority of matches were played behind closed doors. We returned to normal operations 12 months ago carrying a tax liability to HMRC. From the outset, we have worked closely and openly with HMRC on a plan to clear these liabilities and a Time to Pay (TTP) arrangement has been in place.

“The club owners and board are fully committed to preserving top-flight professional rugby in Worcester and have been working on solutions to secure the financial future of Worcester Warriors and to pay outstanding tax owed to HMRC. A solution, which would secure the long-term future of the club, has been approved. Unfortunately, there have been unavoidable delays beyond the club’s control to the final tasks required to complete the funding.

“Having kept HMRC fully apprised of the situation we are disappointed that they have taken the decision to issue a winding-up petition. The club’s directors are in continuing dialogue with HMRC in an attempt to find a speedy and satisfactory resolution.

“We have also been in communication with the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, Sport England, Premiership Rugby and the RFU [Rugby Football Union] regarding this matter.”

HMRC declined to comment.

That's at least 2 Prem clubs in potential big trouble financially atm and there may be more we don't know about yet.

There could still be a few twists and turns this season yet!

If Wuss are in trouble, I bet a few teams are ready and waiting. They’ve a few handy players (on expensive contracts). Would be good if some of them went back to a Scottish team though.

mikey_dragon wrote:If Wuss are in trouble, I bet a few teams are ready and waiting. They’ve a few handy players (on expensive contracts). Would be good if some of them went back to a Scottish team though.

Good for the Scottish team, bad for the Scottish national side.

mikey_dragon wrote:If Wuss are in trouble, I bet a few teams are ready and waiting. They’ve a few handy players (on expensive contracts). Would be good if some of them went back to a Scottish team though.

I doubt many clubs in the prem have the cap space to take players, so they'd be looking at URC, Top 14/Pro D2, Champ etc for a gig in most cases.

Hopefully it doesn't come to that and this is the trigger for a new consortium to come in with some funding.

Ultimately though it's tough to see any kind of path to profitability for Worcester.

I reckon Wasps would sign their players somehow.

Blackett wanted a couple of additional signings for the new season but the board have told him no apparently so be unlikely Wasps will add any of Wuss's stars. I think were a club to go under the PRL might take the TV rights cash off of the club in administration and pass it around the other clubs on the proviso it's used to offer contracts to the strike club's players. Possibly with a preference for EQ talent being kept in the league.

Margin_Walker wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:If Wuss are in trouble, I bet a few teams are ready and waiting. They’ve a few handy players (on expensive contracts). Would be good if some of them went back to a Scottish team though.

I doubt many clubs in the prem have the cap space to take players, so they'd be looking at URC, Top 14/Pro D2, Champ etc for a gig in most cases.

Hopefully it doesn't come to that and this is the trigger for a new consortium to come in with some funding.

Ultimately though it's tough to see any kind of path to profitability for Worcester.

Were a club to fold (Wasps are rumoured to be in big trouble too and Falcons pushed back payments to England players just last season...) I'd imagine that the RFU money for said bust club that is dispersed between the Premiership Clubs via the professional game agreement with PRL might be split evenly between the remaining Premiership Clubs to allow recruitment of players from the folded club outside the cap.

It would seem very harsh on players, EQP and otherwise, to just be left by the wayside if their club goes boom. To my mind at least PRL would owe something to those players that wish to remain in England and hence the Premiership given how much money said players make for them.

Money in all rugby is struggling, Covid has so much to answer for....

We've just announced our Rugby League side (who were really pushing to go all the way to the Superleague) is now going to go part time.

Yeah the huge financial impact on covid is going to ripple for a fair few years for some clubs. Can't imagine any international players being too hard hit though. There are a few towards the end of their careers you would imagine French and Japanese clubs would jump at, and I think if Jones decided that he did want to pick them then it would come under the exceptional circumstances brolly.

Yes, i don't imagine it will be the big names that will suffer here, it will be the younger ones, trying to establish themselves and the journeymen unfortunately for them.

BigGee wrote:Yes, i don't imagine it will be the big names that will suffer here, it will be the younger ones, trying to establish themselves and the journeymen unfortunately for them.

Well yes and no. They'd definitely get contracts but they might be significantly less than what they were expecting to earn at Wasps. There's also the issue of do they then sign a one year deal before trying to get a good deal next summer and run the risk of form or injury ruining that (plus potentially two house moves for the family inside 12 months) or cut their losses and get some stability but below their market worth.

Leicester Tigers have agreed new deals with six members of the club’s Senior Squad.

Ollie Chessum, Will Hurd, Julián Montoya, Guy Porter, Harry Wells and James Whitcombe have signed new contracts with the club beyond the 2022/23 season.

All six players made appearances in the club’s 2021/22 league campaign, with four playing in the Gallagher Premiership Final win at Twickenham Stadium.

Leicester Tigers is the only club the sextet have represented in Premiership Rugby, while Wells and Whitcombe are graduates from the Tigers Academy.

In addition to the six Senior Squad members, the club has agreed a new deal with Senior Academy lock Lewis Chessum.

You'll be happy with that Sam

Reports from France that Mercer has agreed a 3 or 4 year contract with Gloucester. My French is far too bad to actually understand if the article says when the contract starts though.

Interesting...wonder when he becomes eligible.

Dombrandt, Mercer, Vunipola back in form, Tom Willis gives Eddie some serious options.

You keep mentioning Willis, not sure he's anywhere in the conversation for England though.

Going by Jones' choices it looks to be Dombrandt, Simmonds, Vunipola in the front positions with Mercer enhancing his rep and hoping his performances in France push him up then the rest.

GeordieFalcon wrote:You'll be happy with that Sam

Very much so. Ollie Chessum, Porter and Montoya are automatic picks. Wells and Whitcombe strong squad men. Hurd is a strong third choice tighthead and is still in his early twenties so can still improve, not sure he'll ever be an international but he could be a strong Prem level option. Lewis Chessum very raw but lots of potential there, probably another year on loan at Nottingham for him.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:You'll be happy with that Sam

Very much so. Ollie Chessum, Porter and Montoya are automatic picks. Wells and Whitcombe strong squad men. Hurd is a strong third choice tighthead and is still in his early twenties so can still improve, not sure he'll ever be an international but he could be a strong Prem level option. Lewis Chessum very raw but lots of potential there, probably another year on loan at Nottingham for him.

Not always about being an international though Sam, championship winning teams are built on top / very good Premiership players who dont quite make the next level....Exeter, a prime example were built on it, and have probably partially suffered due to too many young stars going up to the next level.

Unless your called Saracens of course

GeordieFalcon wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:You'll be happy with that Sam

Very much so. Ollie Chessum, Porter and Montoya are automatic picks. Wells and Whitcombe strong squad men. Hurd is a strong third choice tighthead and is still in his early twenties so can still improve, not sure he'll ever be an international but he could be a strong Prem level option. Lewis Chessum very raw but lots of potential there, probably another year on loan at Nottingham for him.

Not always about being an international though Sam, championship winning teams are built on top / very good Premiership players who dont quite make the next level....Exeter, a prime example were built on it, and have probably partially suffered due to too many young stars going up to the next level.

Unless your called Saracens of course

Well quite. I did say I was happy with him staying on. He's a local lad that got enticed up to Scotland and who came back down to Leicestershire a couple of years back (much to the happiness of his Mother). It would be ideal for Tigers if he became a really solid clubman as with Heyes we already have a future regular international. At 23 he's at a great age to keep improving.

Agree that successful sides need solid clubmen, even Sarries had Wray and Barrington. Tigers in their glory years had people like Will Johnson and Jamie Hamilton who were brilliant clubmen.

The prem are considering exemptions for if and when Worcester go under to allow teams to sign their players.

Dragons will take VDM, Kitchener and Owen Williams.

The big one for me is where Hill goes. He seems to be stagnating a little but in the right environment may finally get a push.

I don't think Hill stagnated to a great extent last season, the positional change to 8 could be a really good move for his career in the long run. His form wasn't quite as good as it was previously, pretty much fell away after being trialled at lock with England so agree with you there. He's been a young leader of a struggling side which is a tough place to be, a good move now could definitely help push him on (again agree with you there). Quins, Saints or Chiefs would all be a really good move for him.

Mikey there's Doel at Wuss, Dragons might want to look at him. Diminutive but rapid winger that pin balls out of contract with his lower centre of gravity. Be a cheap pick up as well. He's also a former Welsh age grade player and is just 22. Owen Williams would be great if you could get him to accept a reasonable contract and keep him fit, Billy Searle might offer better value for money at flyhalf. Ashley Beck is still at Wuss as well, he might slow in nicely alongside Clark in the Dragons midfield.

As a Tigers fan I'd have a look at Shillcock (massively underrated 15/10) and Seb Atkinson then any age grade players we might fancy like say one of the two hookers they've got in the academy/development squads.

I'd be interested to see him at Saracens if they could convince him to play 6 again.

Good points from Flatman though that it probably isn't fair for clubs unable to spend to the cap seeing those already there able to spend again. And for those players who have taken cuts or had to move clubs seeing these players pick up contracts. Hard to come up with a perfect solution though.

I take your point about the clubs, but the attitude of the players is likely to be one of compassion. No one likes to see someone in the same line of work out of a job through no fault for their own - and by the sound of things there are a number of clubs in financial difficulty, so players will be acutely aware that it could have been them.

And I doubt the Worcester players would be offered contracts out of line with what other players have been offered. They will already have had pay freezes or pay cuts and may even have to accept further cuts to get a deal - but a lower salary than you were expecting is better than no salary at all.

The Worcester players are very likely to get a raw deal in terms of new contracts. Not many of the clubs will have cash to spare even with an increased salary cap, well unless the Wuss TV money gets divided up amongst the other clubs.

I suspect a lot of one year deals to be done and then next summer to be a real transfer roundabout again.

Some very good players at Wuss.

Sutherland and Duhan of course the bigger names.

Any club would take Ted Hill, Ollie Lawrence or Fin Smith due to their ability.

Justin Clegg is in my opinion an underrated second with massive potential.

Faiva is a livewire of a hooker - hehe.

Morozov is a really solid LH - Falcons perhaps...?

Venter is an underrated centre as well IMO. Quality at 12/13 and organises things very well. A good pickup there for the right club.

Noah Howard at 15 has bags of potential too.

Kvesic is still only 30, equally at home at 7 and 8 these days.

More detail on Wasps too from the beeb:

Wasps have followed Worcester's lead by becoming the second Midlands-based club to confirm ongoing dialogue with Her Majesty's Revenue & Customs.

The former Premiership and European champions have responded to a newspaper report that they are being chased by HMRC over an unpaid tax bill.

"We have a strong relationship with HMRC," said a Wasps statement.

"In common with many businesses, we agreed a time-to-pay arrangement with HMRC coming out of Covid-19 lockdown."

The statement added: "We will continue to engage in proactive discussions with them.

"Many companies and business sectors are in exactly the same situation after the most economically challenging two and a half years in living memory.

"Individual businesses in leisure, sport, entertainment, conferencing and hospitality have been hit particularly hard and we are involved in all five of those sectors.

"We have a robust business model with a busier than ever order book for concerts, conferences, exhibitions and other events which will see us prosper into the future."

Wasps, who played in London in their amateur days, have had three homes since rugby union became professional in 1996, spending six years sharing Loftus Road with Queens Park Rangers, before moving to High Wycombe, and then in December 2014 they relocated to the Ricoh Arena - since rebranded the Coventry Building Society Arena.

The rugby club has delayed repaying bondholders, who invested at least £2,000 each, to help it raise £35m in April 2015.

The most recent set of accounts, for Wasps Holdings, which covered the financial year ending June 2021, shows an £18.5m loss over a two-year period, with current liabilities of £54.7m.

Wasps have also been in dispute with tenants Coventry City, who have so far had to postpone three home league matches this season and switch another one due to an "unsafe and unplayable" pitch in the wake of two rock concerts and 65 games of Commonwealth Games Sevens rugby.'

You'd imagine there are other clubs rubbing their hands together in glee over this.

No 7&1/2 wrote:
You'd imagine there are other clubs rubbing their hands together in glee over this.

Maybe outside the Prem. Inside the Prem it's months of negative headlines and potential loss of income from cancelled fixtures. Tigers estimated loss per home game due to Covid was around £500k. Now Wasps would be a sell out so probably more like £600k and Wuss more like £450k. If they both go under it's easily over a million quid lost in revenue. Not sure the club will be rubbing their hands together over that.

No cap rise it seems.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/players-face-limbo-if-worcester-warriors-fold-mm3n5zcjd?shareToken=7a90c894a712147bf7284c53de1935cf

It's the likes of Leicester who will potentially hoover the players up though Sam. A few French clubs will be interested.

If things turnaround quickly there may even be the potential that the likes of Ealing get a lucky call up. There's no perfect solution so I'd imagine all cards are on the table.

king_carlos wrote:Some very good players at Wuss.

Sutherland and Duhan of course the bigger names.

Any club would take Ted Hill, Ollie Lawrence or Fin Smith due to their ability.

Justin Clegg is in my opinion an underrated second with massive potential.

Faiva is a livewire of a hooker - hehe.

Morozov is a really solid LH - Falcons perhaps...?

Venter is an underrated centre as well IMO. Quality at 12/13 and organises things very well. A good pickup there for the right club.

Noah Howard at 15 has bags of potential too.

Kvesic is still only 30, equally at home at 7 and 8 these days.

Nah we're good thanks, but id have Ted Hill, Fin Smith and Ollie Lawrence please

With regards to the prem - would be nice if the RFU reconsidered the applications from Ealing and whoever finished 2nd in the championship (should worces and wasps go under).
And look at those promoted teams taking on and getting funding for those Worces/Wasps players.

So Ealing is the obvious first choice. Doncaster are very keen on moving up aswell.

Its all a bit last minute - but if clubs are worried about loss in gate revenue then the obvious option is to find a replacement fixture.

In my merit table days if we couldn't get a game there was a fixture exchange board. Basically just phone around and see who else fancies a game.

Imagine one 'wildcard' fixture mid season when your side could be playing anyone - #Tetly Bitter Cup

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's the likes of Leicester who will potentially hoover the players up though Sam. A few French clubs will be interested.

If things turnaround quickly there may even be the potential that the likes of Ealing get a lucky call up. There's no perfect solution so I'd imagine all cards are on the table.

Not just French clubs.
How many have Welsh, Scottish or Irish parentage?

Ulster were previously interested in Willis who is Irish qualified.
Doesn't appear in Eddie's plans.
I think it is quite likely they would view him as a replacement for Vermuelen

Would Ealing and Doncaster really have the supporter base to allow them to compete with the others? I'd imagine they would both struggle to spend to the cap unless they have wealthy backers? I know Ealing have a bit of money behind them but wasn't aware that Doncaster had wealthy benefactors.

geoff999rugby wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's the likes of Leicester who will potentially hoover the players up though Sam. A few French clubs will be interested.

If things turnaround quickly there may even be the potential that the likes of Ealing get a lucky call up. There's no perfect solution so I'd imagine all cards are on the table.

Not just French clubs.
How many have Welsh, Scottish or Irish parentage?

Ulster were previously interested in Willis who is Irish qualified.
Doesn't appear in Eddie's plans.
I think it is quite likely they would view him as a replacement for Vermuelen

Yeah but looking at the various club recruitments already I doubt many French clubs have any places or cash left over. They also reduced their salary cap last season as Covid hit some of them hard as well.

The TOP14 does end up recruiting players as medical jokers so they might pick up some from there. The real question is how many squad players at Wasps and Worcester would actually be retained by others? Aside from 6 or 7 key players in each team large parts of the squad simply might not be good enough.

Welshmushroom wrote:Would Ealing and Doncaster really have the supporter base to allow them to compete with the others?  I'd imagine they would both struggle to spend to the cap unless they have wealthy backers?  I know Ealing have a bit of money behind them but wasn't aware that Doncaster had wealthy benefactors.

Doubtful but show me a club who has...?

Donny would just come straight back down, no money to compete despite winning more games than Ealing last year.

Wasps have an announcement at 10 this morning and from the looks of the twitter account doesn't come across as bad news.

Wonder if it would just make more sense to lessen the amount of teams and just share out the extra from the TV & RFU money between 11 instead of splitting it between 13 again